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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
134
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:24:00 -
[241] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Has it crossed your minds that some people have gone out and found large mining corps and made direct deals with them, totally cut Jita out of the loop?
In that sense, yes, the ore is not coming to the JITA market, but it is getting mined and sold/bought.
I get roughly a titans worth of minerals every 3 days with NO TROUBLES, NONE, zero, zilch
Again, you can't sit in Jita and whine, you have to go out there and get it.
This patch was just a way for me to test a theory and it has paid off for me big time, you are lazy and unimaginative, you will wither and die in Jita. Maybe I'll bring some ore by later and fill a few buy orders and give you a thrill! You misunderstand -- we're just as capable of doing this as you are. Remember -- neutral alts. We just also want the process to be easier overall. We can do both; it's okay. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to want things to be easier.
My goal is to FORCE you to do this
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
134
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:25:00 -
[242] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. all changes that make EVE Online a better game benefit us because as the Overmen we will maintain our position of dominance regardless of the changes, but the better the game is the more we enjoy playing it in addition to the enjoyment we always get of being gods among cattle Aaand you just made my mind up..I was about to buy a pos and array. But there is no way i'm going to compress and sell to you lot now. I'll take the minute hit in lost revenue (and a lot less hassle) cheers. Isn't there a song about true colours? If not there should be.
Contact me in game, we can make a deal, I promise it won't go to them, until it gets turned into Antimatter |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1517
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:31:00 -
[243] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Mining in actual belts in nullsec is much worse isk/hour than mining in empire because of aforementioned mineral prices
Outright lie that I've already debunked in this thread. Null static belts are worth more than High Sec belts.
Seriously, try harder with your propaganda, it's truly miserable this week.
This is a blatant goon grab for their own benefit trying to disguise it as 'think of the highsec miner'. The current system is fine, it creates dynamic pressures in high sec relating to corps and choices that any miner in any space has to make. This is a good state of affairs. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
781
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:32:00 -
[244] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:
You misunderstand -- we're just as capable of doing this as you are. Remember -- neutral alts. We just also want the process to be easier overall. We can do both; it's okay. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to want things to be easier.
My goal is to FORCE you to do this
Cutting off your nose to spite your face, eh?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
163
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:33:00 -
[245] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. As of this post, there are just over 200k units of compressed Kernite on sell orders across all the major markets (priced at roughly 36k per unit). There are already over 800k units on buy orders at roughly 30k per unit. Shoogie wrote:
100 Kernite = 26048.00 isk. Refined = 97.016 trit, 193.308 mex, 97.016 iso = 23693.19 isk (9.0% loss) Compressed = 29578.35 isk (13.6% profit)
30k buys are already at a 13.6% profit over ore price (26.6% more profitable than mineral prices). These profit margins are huge- the "pay more" mentality is already in effect here- these are some of the best margins in the game for mining, yet the ore is still not getting to market. The sells that are up there are at roughly 36k per unit. That's 38.2% more than the ore price and 51.9% more than the price of the minerals in the ore. These aren't being bought out because it is cheaper to ship individual minerals rather than buy the ore at those prices. There is clearly an issue here, and "you need to pay more" is not it. Has it crossed your minds that some people have gone out and found large mining corps and made direct deals with them, totally cut Jita out of the loop? In that sense, yes, the ore is not coming to the JITA market, but it is getting mined and sold/bought. I get roughly a titans worth of minerals every 3 days with NO TROUBLES, NONE, zero, zilch Again, you can't sit in Jita and whine, you have to go out there and get it. This patch was just a way for me to test a theory and it has paid off for me big time, you are lazy and unimaginative, you will wither and die in Jita. Maybe I'll bring some ore by later and fill a few buy orders and give you a thrill!
Sounds like you guys have it figured out. Above Jita pricing is the norm for these deals too, thus my telling the CFC lickspittles to pay more.
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Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
49
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:48:00 -
[246] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Mining in actual belts in nullsec is much worse isk/hour than mining in empire because of aforementioned mineral prices
Outright lie that I've already debunked in this thread. Null static belts are worth more than High Sec belts.
Belt composition (total isk value of a belt) and actually getting the ore to market (isk/hour) are two different things. Also, highsec gets a 25%+ bonus on compressed ore value by getting it to Jita; shipping out of 0.0 has a significant cost.
I can "infinitely respawn" our ore anomalies, does that mean that they make me "infinitely" more Isk/hr than hisec?
Sitting in a ship with a scanner is different than actually mining out an asteroid belt with a miner- the fact that anyone even suggests mining asteroid belts in null is laughable. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1518
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:11:00 -
[247] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Belt composition (total isk value of a belt) and actually getting the ore to market (isk/hour) are two different things. Also, highsec gets a 25%+ bonus on compressed ore value by getting it to Jita; shipping out of 0.0 has a significant cost.
I can "infinitely respawn" our ore anomalies, does that mean that they make me "infinitely" more Isk/hr than hisec?
Sitting in a ship with a scanner is different than actually mining out an asteroid belt with a miner- the fact that anyone even suggests mining asteroid belts in null is laughable.
Because they are so much higher risk than the anoms now that you can warp straight to them right? Errr. No. The Belts are no more risk than the anoms. Probably lower since people will normally assume you are in the anoms from habit anyway.
& Shipping out of 0.0? Wtf, why are you shipping out of 0.0. The whole complaint is that Null needs more low ends, so why would you ship your own low ends out of Null? You would use them locally, instead of buying at jita prices & then paying the shipping cost to IMPORT them.
Seriously, you are just inventing excuses here, or parroting the old arguments, when they are utterly inapplicable. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
2207
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:21:00 -
[248] - Quote
Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:22:00 -
[249] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:
Every highsec miner needs to read this thread. You can bet the vast majority will do the same.
hahahahaha good one, highsec miners don't even look at their clients let alone the forums |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:27:00 -
[250] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening.
Public courier contracts have collateral options, allowing you to diversify hauling risk.
I think the 50%+ margin people in this thread seem entitled to having will cover a few million isk spent on courier fees.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
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Posted - 2014.09.04 22:29:00 -
[251] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening.
Work out the value you can move in a blockade runner of compressed ore. Then blink, work it out again. And consider not using a Freighter. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
49
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Posted - 2014.09.04 22:29:00 -
[252] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:& Shipping out of 0.0? Wtf, why are you shipping out of 0.0.
Really, please stop trying to argue a side that you have no knowledge on- you clearly are out of your element. We have a gigantic surplus of high end ores, that is the issue.
Counting down until the thread gets locked because of all the grrgoon and lack of general intelligence in the opposing arguments.
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Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
731
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Posted - 2014.09.04 22:33:00 -
[253] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:
My goal is to FORCE you to do this
come now, we're goons, i have a much better idea than THAT if it comes down to it
but lowering yourself to begging highsec miners for scraps of ore in exchange for you posting that pl respects them, have you no dignity |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
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Posted - 2014.09.04 22:33:00 -
[254] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Really, please stop trying to argue a side that you have no knowledge on- you clearly are out of your element. We have a gigantic surplus of high end ores, that is the issue.
Counting down until the thread gets locked because of all the grrgoon and lack of general intelligence in the opposing arguments.
Please train reading comprehension to at least 1.
I am talking about the more voluminous Low ends & Mid ends (Including stuff like that really valuable Jaspet) which are in the Static Belts, not the ABC's in the Industrial Anomalies. |
Wopasi
Wicoti
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:40:00 -
[255] - Quote
If you have too many high ends, then lower the market costs of high ends and pay more for low-ends. Flip the market based on a new alignment of mineral value.
Your machine requires more resources than you can acquire to keep it running. Since you cannot enslave the local population to work for you, acquiring more space will not solve the problem. Diplomacy to get others to cooperate with you will be problematic, your are Goons and have made the burden you carry.
So if neither military conquest nor diplomacy will work and if CCP will not change the game mechanics in your favor then you can either be patient until the market corrects (possible if those who hunt you share your problems) or declare economic war and disrupt the mineral market.
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
136
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:42:00 -
[256] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:
My goal is to FORCE you to do this
come now, we're goons, i have a much better idea than THAT if it comes down to it but lowering yourself to begging highsec miners for scraps of ore in exchange for you posting that pl respects them, have you no dignity
Screw Dignity, I have ORE
Lots of it |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
2207
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:42:00 -
[257] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening. Work out the value you can move in a blockade runner of compressed ore. Then blink, work it out again. And consider not using a Freighter.
I wouldn't take a blockage runner or anything else filled with ore to Jita these days. Now that I really think about it, mining ore for anything but a local highsec producer is incredibly stupid and wasteful.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
136
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:44:00 -
[258] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening.
freighter loads of high sec barely tops 400 mil
Anyway, I bring in freighters, setup a pos, compress and jump out, all in about an hour or so
Small faction towers take 12 min to anchor and online, very little overall time
You act like this is my first rodeo |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
2207
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:53:00 -
[259] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening. freighter loads of high sec barely tops 400 mil Anyway, I bring in freighters, setup a pos, compress and jump out, all in about an hour or so Small faction towers take 12 min to anchor and online, very little overall time You act like this is my first rodeo
The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
136
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:57:00 -
[260] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening. freighter loads of high sec barely tops 400 mil Anyway, I bring in freighters, setup a pos, compress and jump out, all in about an hour or so Small faction towers take 12 min to anchor and online, very little overall time You act like this is my first rodeo The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails.
If they are going to gank, fine, no worries
What i meant was the 400 mil in high sec ore isn't going to tip the scales and get them frothy at the mouth, there are plenty of other juicy options for them typically.
Again, if it is your time, so be it, but the ore won't tip the scale. |
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Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
49
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Posted - 2014.09.04 23:09:00 -
[261] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails.
You should be fine, last I heard they were heading with MiniLuv to some systems where this PL guy has 12 frieghters and a titan moving raw ore.
Related to compression- actually making compression easier for the layman makes it safer for them to get their compressed ore to the market via blockade runners! Praise be the benevolent Goons for suggesting that we make it harder to gank ore shipments!
Edit: specifically, this one-
Querns wrote:Edit: After some, well, strenuous debate on the topic, a compromise has emerged that I think everyone can enjoy. Allow the Orca to fit the Industrial Core, giving it the ability to compress ore.
Industrial Core orca would not remove the use for compression towers- miners could decide if they wanted to park their orca at the belt to compress the ore (more risk and less cost) or simply haul ore to a POS to compress it there (less risk and more cost). |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 23:12:00 -
[262] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Related to compression- actually making compression easier for the layman makes it safer for them to get their compressed ore to the market via blockade runners! Praise be the benevolent Goons for suggesting that we make it harder to gank ore shipments!
Except of course, it actually makes it easier if people start bothering to target BR's.
And it's nothing to do with your benevolence.
And it destroys the purpose of having a high sec corp.
And of having a high sec POS.
So what you are actually doing is attacking High Sec game play for your own benefit.... Hey, what a surprise.
Ever stop to think that some of us don't fall for your tall tales about why you are doing things and can actually do the reasoning ourselves to work out what is going on. Especially when you disguise it as poorly as you have this time, and give such feeble excuses. At least normally you have a better disguise and misdirection going on. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
49
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Posted - 2014.09.04 23:15:00 -
[263] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:So what you are actually doing is attacking High Sec game play for your own benefit.... Hey, what a surprise.
This is a serious question:
How is our proposal to make compression more accessible an "attack" on High Sec game play? So far, the only rebuttals that have been presented are "nullsec has more low end ore" and "it is fine as is because I'm making a xx% profit margin". |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
136
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 23:36:00 -
[264] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Sentamon wrote:The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails. You should be fine, last I heard they were heading with MiniLuv to some systems where this PL guy has 12 frieghters and a titan moving raw ore.
AMAMAKE II-1 Tribal something or other station
Stop by ANYTIME, I mean anytime
Bring friends
Stay a while, we will get you home quickly |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 23:51:00 -
[265] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
This is a serious question:
How is our proposal to make compression more accessible an "attack" on High Sec game play? So far, the only rebuttals that have been presented are "nullsec has more low end ore" and "it is fine as is because I'm making a xx% profit margin".
Because you are back to promoting solo game play, by removing one of the largest incentives I've seen for people in highsec to work together to mitigate the cost of a tower between an entire corp for compression.
We need more factors which benefit a group working together, not less. So needing a POS to compress and a POS being hard for a solo pilot to operate are actually GOOD things, not bad things. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 00:42:00 -
[266] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:
This is a serious question:
How is our proposal to make compression more accessible an "attack" on High Sec game play? So far, the only rebuttals that have been presented are "nullsec has more low end ore" and "it is fine as is because I'm making a xx% profit margin".
Because you are back to promoting solo game play, by removing one of the largest incentives I've seen for people in highsec to work together to mitigate the cost of a tower between an entire corp for compression. We need more factors which benefit a group working together, not less. So needing a POS to compress and a POS being hard for a solo pilot to operate are actually GOOD things, not bad things.
So, out of all the issues you can think of, that's the one you go with.
Okay-
Your argument is that changing compression is a bad idea because sharing a POS for the compression module is revolutionary content in promoting people to work together, and that Goons are back to "promoting solo game play".
Rebuttal:
Querns wrote:Edit: After some, well, strenuous debate on the topic, a compromise has emerged that I think everyone can enjoy. Allow the Orca to fit the Industrial Core, giving it the ability to compress ore.
Giving the Orca a compression module would encourage miners to fleet together and engage in shooting asteroids as a fleet. This is a much more accessible solution than a POS, because the fleet of miners would then not be restricted to one system.
Also, as pointed out several times earlier in this thread, running a POS is exceptionally cheap and one person can easily manage a POS (see: almost every system in empire). Furthermore, as per your argument with sharing a POS, once the initial agreement is set up (and standings are set), miners are no longer encouraged to actually work together- an individual miner can just go to the POS, compress, and take that ore to the station.
Does anyone have an actual reason why implementing a change to compression is a bad idea? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 00:58:00 -
[267] - Quote
The Orca is accessible in 17 days. This does not encourage corps.
Simply because you want to belittle an argument that runs counter to the goons does not make it invalid. Nor do you get to dismiss the requirements of a corp working together to keep a POS running.
Your entire argument is based on 'Goons need more compressed ore'.
So yes, we've made plenty of arguments why this is a bad idea, and the only argument you have made to it being a good idea is 'Goons get more compressed ore' |
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1579
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 01:32:00 -
[268] - Quote
As a funny aside. Sometimes we don't all share the same degree of enthusiasm for a change.
Myself, I don't actually think we need station compression this moment as I would like to see how this plays out more. I would like to see the higher yield variants rolled into a base compressed type though. Just to simplify the whole process.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 01:49:00 -
[269] - Quote
Aryth wrote:
I would like to see the higher yield variants rolled into a base compressed type though. Just to simplify the whole process.
Now that change I can get behind.
Personally I'd go one step further and just roll it right in at the base level. So mining the +5% ore gives you 5% more yield than normal as it's easier to extract fast. Rather than a different variant that is richer. As that system allows for more subtle tweaks later without needing to create a new ore for the market. Since you can run the extra yield via variable on the object. And have that variable influenced by other factors as well.
Does come with the downside of ore holds filling faster also. But that might not be a bad thing overall since it does promote more team play in regards to haulers. If a little more micromanagement being a bad thing. 50/50? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1579
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 02:15:00 -
[270] - Quote
I really would love to see Courier contracts to POS somehow. Some sort of anchorable outside the shields invuln mod if you had to. Removing the worst component, M3 movement to your POS, could go a long way to turning this into a really niche profession. It also means a whole lot more things go boom in highsec POS kills.
That sounds like EVE to me.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
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