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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
776
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Posted - 2014.09.01 23:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Greyscale asked that all compression chat be shunted into an adjunct thread, so here we go.
Since Crius kneecapped scrap metal reprocessing, compressed ore is the new hotness. However, the process of generating compressed ore is proving to be somewhat cumbersome, and, in my opinion, insufficient motivation is given by the game itself to point towards compression as a viable alternative to reprocessing ore.
I feel this could be improved by three simple changes.
1) Add a station compression service. This removes the barrier of entry that a POS requires, and makes compression ubiquitous for all. This does not obviate the use of the POS module -- a savvy miner might set up a POS in a system without a station, and use the POS compression module to help keep their industry well lubricated.
2) Add UI hints in the reprocessing dialog to point towards compression. Currently, items which are not profitable to reprocess are highlighted in red. Extend this functionality to ores whose compressed version is reasonably more profitable than its constituent minerals.
3) Consolidate ore variants to a single type of compressed ore. For example, compressing Concentrated Veldspar and Dense Veldspar would output Compressed Veldspar. Tweaking the input amounts to correspond to the higher amount of minerals contained in the ore variants would make this work.
If any other folks have any ideas as to how to incentivize ore compression, please feel free to post. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
117
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Posted - 2014.09.02 05:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
POS compression is the most basic of POS activities. In fact I would argue that it is in fact a means of entry into POS ownership and use. Although the convince of station compression would greatly assist in my particular efforts I do not believe it is the appropriate action to take. Of all the podcasts I listen to Hyrdostatic is the best! http://hydrostaticpodcast.blogspot.ca/ Nolen Cadmar spreadsheets: Excellent value, great customer service. Don't wait and check them out. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=295315 |
Oxide Ammar
153
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Posted - 2014.09.02 07:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:POS compression is the most basic of POS activities. In fact I would argue that it is in fact a means of entry into POS ownership and use. Although the convince of station compression would greatly assist in my particular efforts I do not believe it is the appropriate action to take.
I agree, this game about logistics when you offer compression service to every station out there this will nullify the volume of ores itself since you are compressing on the spot...suddenly you will realize why the hell we have compression from the beginning if we can compress 24/7 ...so why don't we take out this compression whole idea from game and we apply the compressed ore volumes directly to the ores itself and be done with it. You see why I did there ? Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3775
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Posted - 2014.09.02 08:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'd agree that making it easier to compress ore, would make POS based compression next to pointless. The only way to avoid that would be to add a cost which is unavoidable. Like a percentage cost taken, whenever you compress ore in station. 5% say. (maybe 10%, and standings can reduce)
Ditto with adding it to a ship or mobile structure, unless it's inherently lossy.
The UI hints I like. Yes, it's kind of 'dumbing down Eve', but I think it's handy for training newcomers, and people do never bothered looking.
Consolidating ore types is also a good idea. Complicated to get the numbers working out right, but not hellishly so. When I've dipped my toe into the compressed Veld market, the basic sold quickly. The dense is still sitting. Because the volume is too low for people to bother looking at. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
108
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Posted - 2014.09.02 11:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
as i said int he other thread:
DO NOT TOUCH ORE OR COMPRESSION, they are fine
Most people haven't figured it out, I have and I like my advantage
I have bought roughly 50-70 bil of ore a week with no issues at GOOD prices, please don't screw it up, it is a good balance and requires putting on big boy pants and a thinking cap. Best addition to the game in years. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
776
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Posted - 2014.09.02 14:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'd agree that station compression would probably have an associated fee. I'd say an isk cost rather than a materials tax, as sinking more isk is always a good thing. The starbase compression module, of course, would be free of this fee. I'd also entertain the notion of having the station compression service only available in empire, or perhaps only highsec, to incentivize use of the starbase module (and rorqual!) in lower-security space.
Having station compression does not completely obsolete the starbase compression module. Many systems in empire do not have stations, which would allow a savvy miner to set up a starbase in this system to ease his or her logistics in a way that others can't. This goes doubly for nullsec, where the costs of a (small) starbase are much, much cheaper than an outpost for any reasonable length of time. And, of course, you can't forget wormholes. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
727
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Posted - 2014.09.02 14:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:as i said int he other thread:
DO NOT TOUCH ORE OR COMPRESSION, they are fine
Most people haven't figured it out, I have and I like my advantage
I have bought roughly 50-70 bil of ore a week with no issues at GOOD prices, please don't screw it up, it is a good balance and requires putting on big boy pants and a thinking cap. Best addition to the game in years. There's no thinking cap involved. There is a massive amount of round-trip hauling, which is perhaps the worst sort of pointless busywork that exists in this game. As a result, few people are doing compression and I expect a shocking number of those are hauling bots. No sane human at the computer can sit there doing round trips from a station to a pos in a freighter all day. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
776
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Posted - 2014.09.02 14:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Not to mention the following:
http://i.imgur.com/nCFLg91.png
I believe that even with station compression, you'll still be able to buy ore from people in geographically remote areas at a cost advantage. Adding station compression in empire doesn't threaten this. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
128
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Posted - 2014.09.02 15:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
I have been fairly active in the compressed minerals market for the last month. Jita was bought out of reasonably priced compressed plagioclase on Sunday. However, there was still reasonably priced compressed azure and compressed rich plagioclase available. Also, the regular was re-stocked by Monday. For the other ores, I have plenty of competition 0.01-isking my market orders. So I think the markets are pretty healthy.
We are fighting against 11 years of intertia of miners thinking they should be refining their ore. I think they are coming around-some more slowly than others. Given a little more time, miners refining should be the exception.
I am a bit conflicted on the idea of consolidating ore variants. On the one hand, I like being able to cram 10% more minerals into a jump freighter by using the high-grade compressed ores. On the other hand, the markets show that most people are not taking advantage of it. Compressed massive scordite should be worth 10% more than regular scordite, because it packs 10% more minerals into the same volume? Well, they are selling for about the same price. Obviously, many capital builders simply have the regular compressed ores on their spreadsheets and don't want to hassle with the higher grade versions. This is good for people who are smart enough to check the high grade ores on the market, but not so good for incentivizing miners to compress their ore. Is this an example of bad complexity?
If we were to consolidate ore variants, I would recommend fiddling with the batch size. 100 units of regular ore is required to refine into X minerals or compress into 1 compressed ore. For the 5% variant ore, use 95 units to refine into the same stack of minerals or 1 compressed ore. For the 10% variant ore, use 90 units to refine or compress. This would be the simplest way to make everything line up nicely and not affect current yields much. |
Basil Vulpine
Blueprint Haus Get Off My Lawn
42
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Posted - 2014.09.02 15:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
I think partly we need to distinguish between the re-education of people from the old to the new eve and the expected long term steady state. Based on that
1) While definitely a way of speeding up adoption in the short term, in the long run it has significant impact on the steady state. I personally agree that ISK fees would be a better long term counterbalance than loss of ore. The scale of fees would need to be such that compressing low-end ores in a station doesn't exceed the increase in value so this may be fairly marginal. An option of paying compression fees in LP instead of ISK may add some variety and increase take-up in the "my time is free" market segment at the cost of reducing the ISK sink. You could add further incentives to using "proper" compression via POS or Rorq by putting a cap on station compression batch size or requiring some form of payment in items. Sure the station will compress it for you but you'll need to provide them a janitor first so that it can tidy up afterwards.
As an alternative have stations offer an "ore plank packaging" option. It doesn't turn ore in to compressed ore but it puts it in to a courier package like container which contains much more ore on the inside than its external measurement. Make this efficient enough that it slightly beats moving minerals but less efficient than moving compressed ore. As a container you wouldn't be able to move it via any service that re-contracts to haulers (e.g. Red Frog) and potentially it wouldn't fit in to freighters or JFs. You could however haul it yourself more conveniently in a miasmos or normal industrial. You would also be able to break it open anywhere to convert it back to normal ore and then sell or compress. This would allow an individual to experience some of the convenience that compression offers while leaving a definite niche for proper compression. If you go down this route give each and every player a voucher for a 10,000 m3 container conversion. Minimal in ISK terms but a lot of people will try it out simply because they have a voucher so they may as well spend it.
2) This purely attacks the adoption speed and allows the ore processor to make an informed decision. I can think of absolutely no reason not to add this. The display should also include not just the ISK value comparison but the m3 value comparisons. People are partially habituated in to an "ore bulky / minerals compact" mindset and so refining might be as much a way of making things easier to move as trying to keep some of the value. An interesting side question here is what other values are worth showing? The value of the raw ore and of the minerals received on reprocessing are obvious enough. Comparing this with the market value of the relevant compressed ore would be the basic new addition. Should it also include a value for "best reprocess possible at this facility" so that people get a gut feel appreciation of the value of the reprocessing skills and implant? In terms of effort this also seems like an easy option. It's recently written code and all of the values it needs are already available.
3) This is more of a long term change than adoption speed I think. Back when the compression blog first popped up I posted to ask about simplifying the compression to a single type of product per ore. I was coming from the angle of simplifying buy orders so that it remained comparable to current mineral buy orders in slot consumption. At the time people pointed out they liked the option of the higher grade compressed ores for the extra transport density they could get if they were picky about what they bought. For the real bulk users 10% extra ore per m3 is a reduction in the number of jump freighter loads required.
While I personally like the idea of simpler supply lines I can understand why some want the option of spending more time purchasing and less effort moving. Now what might be nice (though hard for maths) is to have the station compress things to "basic" ore. POS modules compress it all to 5% compressed ore. Rorqs compress it all to 10% compressed ore. Doing that might need compressed ore to be converted in to something that is simply smaller than uncompressed ore and is exchanged on a 1:1 basis rather than 100 ore -> 1 compressed ore. This would also help the Rorq with its absurdly small fleet hangar that fills up with odds and ends of ore during a strip mining operation.
4) As a possibly more radical / additional option. Change the way POS / Rorq compression works. Instead of insert in to hangar, compress it, remove go to approach within 2,500 meters, use the compression service in the same way as a fitting service, compress ore in your own ship. On the POS side it would ideally be accompanied with an access setting of "everybody" on the module so that's probably less useful. While a nice thought I suspect this would quickly get outweighed by the effort involved in coding it in to the game. And it would also need people to anchor the compression module close enough to the forcefield edge. But what it would allow is for somebody to collect up ore from across an area and do a drive by compression with a freighter. |
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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
179
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Posted - 2014.09.02 16:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Personally I feel these proposals are attempting to fix something that is fit for purpose and is not broken. I think most people like the three variants of each ore and I'm sure intelligent ore buyers see the sense in buying ores with an additional ten percent yield. Those industrialists that do not wish to make more profit can continue on as they are.
These ideas would be a waste of valuable Dev time which could be used to fix bugs and problems highlighted by others or maybe even broken stuff. |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
13
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Posted - 2014.09.02 16:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ore compression is fine. If people can't find enough of it, the simple reason is that they do not pay enough for it to be an incentive (basic market rule and all).
The whining about the lack of compressed ore is basically people who want to buy compressed ore at the ore price +1 %. That is not going to happen. Set up a buy order at a good enough price and people will compress the ore and do the logistics for it. |
Arronicus
Caldari Navy Reconnaissance
1123
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Posted - 2014.09.02 16:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ore compression is just fine.
Adding ore compression to stations would be a huge mistake, that would only further reduce the usefulness of the rorqual, and POS'es. Considering that compression is now instant, it is not some 'great heroic effort' to take large amounts of ore to a pos via freighter, compress it, then run it back to a station all at once, not to mention if you haul your mined ore straight to the pos in the first place, it's faster than if you actually used a station.
If anything, I would like to see an inefficiency applied to pos compression (say 2-5%?) to give back something to the rorqual, which keeps getting skipped over.
Edit: As for removing the 5% and 10% compressed variants: No. Eve does not need to be simplified and dumbed down. The complexity is a good thing, not to mention that 10% compressed ore blocks are that much more efficient for hauling space. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
557
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 17:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Do not change ore compression.
If you absolutely must, simplify the three ore types into one compressed type, but otherwise do not touch anything. The system is fine.
Educate miners. Make a pretty video with CCP Guard in front of blackboard teaching simple math to bads.
|
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
727
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 17:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:Ore compression is fine. If people can't find enough of it, the simple reason is that they do not pay enough for it to be an incentive (basic market rule and all).
This is obviously untrue, and we've been seeing that since Crius was released. Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them. Furthermore the immense effort of compressing any reasonable amount of ore is not a fun addition to the game. Nobody wins when someone's doing an infinite number of round trips to their pos. Their pos has nothing valuble in it, their freighter doesn't either (and even if it did, it's ungankable unless they don't think to dock up) and the actual gameplay is basically a war crime.
Anyone who wants to verify what I say is correct needs only look at the actual compressed ore volume in jita. I have simply halted my T1 building until it's fixed, and I'm not the only one.
edit: I suspect the PL posters seeking to keep ore compression kneecapped are doing so because with their hordes of renters in the drone regions, they've got ample local ore supplies: http://i.imgur.com/nCFLg91.png. With ore compression currently basically unworkable right now, that means they have their competition idle and can raise prices.
I wholeheartedly approve from a screw everyone get yours perspective, but it's not good game design. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
776
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Posted - 2014.09.02 17:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
A lot of the contrary opinions posted here are primarily from the mining side of the equation. My perspective is more from the producer's side -- there is simply not enough compressed ore on the market to satisfy even minimal levels of production. Consider the scale at which a miner works and a scale at which a producer works -- the producer needs many factors of magnitude more compressed ore than a miner, or a compressor-for-hire deals with on a routine basis. What seems like a lot to you is a drop in the bucket for us. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
28
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Posted - 2014.09.02 17:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:Ore compression is fine. If people can't find enough of it, the simple reason is that they do not pay enough for it to be an incentive (basic market rule and all).
The whining about the lack of compressed ore is basically people who want to buy compressed ore at the ore price +1 %. That is not going to happen. Set up a buy order at a good enough price and people will compress the ore and do the logistics for it.
Edit: simple fix for people that have "problems" to get compressed ore: set up a regional buy order for ore and go and compress it yourself. To bothersome? Well that is the extra that needs to be paid.
Ive got buy orders up in jita 24/7 and buying all the high sec ores. After 2 weeks of buying everything I ended up with roughly these minerals: 8 billion trit 1.5 bill pye 100 mil mex 15 mil isogen 30 mil nocxium
Slightly overdid it with the Trit, pye was okay, Nocxium was dead on funnily enough but Mexallon and Isogen wherent even 25% of what i would need for a weeks worth of production. And that is with constantly updating buy orders.
The biggest problem is that there just isnt enough ore moved in Jita market total. If i where to buy all the omber thats beeing traded over there I still wouldnt have enough omber. That is including Silvery omber and Golden omber.
Setting up buy orders and compressing ore my self? I think i would rather jump of a roof. I need like 400 to 500 max cargo freighter trips to move that ore. It wouldnt be so bad if i could just redfrog that all, but sadly they dont deliver to a pos, coz well game mechanics |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
776
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Posted - 2014.09.02 17:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
More proof that the mineral market is fundamentally broken is the price of highend minerals. Highend minerals are reaching historic lows, with zydrine at 400 and megacyte below 1000. This is due to one, simple reason -- you need a large number of lowend minerals to soak up highends, and there aren't enough lowends to go around. Furthermore, with highsec miners (traditionally the largest producers of lowend minerals) reprocessing their ores locally, the problem is exacerbated -- the primary consumers of lowend minerals (nullsec) can't feasibly use the minerals due to their bulk.
Making compression ubiquitous and easy helps both the miners, who sell the minerals, and producers, which consume the minerals, work together to even out this imbalance. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 17:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote: Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them.
So basically you are saying people are too dumb to make a profit in EvE and the market is broken when the market is ruthless for pretty much other item. I am pretty sure that is it and not you being a cheapskate.
Here is what i suspect: The market accurately reflects the effort and much volume is handled via private contracts.
You can currently buy plenty of compressed veldspar at a 19% markup in Jita. Seems fair to me considered the hauling around issue.
Here is a thought:
a.) pay the extra fee to the people who do the logistics of buying ore, hauling it, compressing it, and hauling it back b.) befriend some highsec miner corporation to get a stable deal c.) recruit miners for your 0.0 operation (because that is what this is about) and stop treating them like ****.
Either way the easy mode mineral logistics is gone for now. HTFU. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
727
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 17:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote: You can currently buy plenty of compressed veldspar at a 19% markup in Jita. Seems fair to me considered the hauling around issue.
go try to buy a reasonable amount of compressed mexallon and isogen at any price whatsoever |
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Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
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Posted - 2014.09.02 17:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
This is a slight cross post from my F&I Thread:
The issue isn't just compression. The issue is that there is a huge demand for minerals in nullsec, and we have no viable way of even getting close to supplying our minerals locally.
The suggestions above are basically spoon feeding more information to highsec trying to get them to look at the actual profitability of mining/compressing. Why would this "profitability" feature be implemented for compression and not expanded to production?
Compression is just in the cross hairs because that is the only way to source the minerals we need. Crius pushed production out of hub systems and is gradually forcing markets to form in nullsec, yet mineral supply is still centralized around major trade hubs (Jita). Even if we did strat op mining ops to clear Deklein of all it's ore, we'd still be short on key low end minerals and would absolutely crash what's left of the high end mineral market. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
776
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 17:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote: Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them. So basically you are saying people are too dumb to make a profit in EvE and the market is broken when the market is ruthless for pretty much other item. I am pretty sure that is it and not you being a cheapskate. Here is what i suspect: The market accurately reflects the effort and much volume is handled via private contracts. You can currently buy plenty of compressed veldspar at a 19% markup in Jita. Seems fair to me considered the hauling around issue. Here is a thought: a.) pay the extra fee to the people who do the logistics of buying ore, hauling it, compressing it, and hauling it back b.) befriend some highsec miner corporation to get a stable deal c.) recruit miners for your 0.0 operation (because that is what this is about) and stop treating them like ****. Either way the easy mode mineral logistics is gone for now. HTFU. None of your thoughts actually help the problem. Let's break them down one by one.
A) We're already doing this. Trit is starting to even out, but mexallon and isogen do not have enough market volume to meet the demands of even a single nullsec producer. B) The sheer number of minerals required to do any meaningful production make befriending a highsec mining corporation (or 100 of them) infeasible. The market typically deals with these inefficiencies by dint of pricing, but there just isn't enough supply to go around, on account of the vast majority of the supply being reprocessed in a terrible manner. C) As stated earlier, the mineral composition of nullsec anomalies and belts is primarily highends. Mulching a Colossal hidden belt provides a mere pittance of lowends required, while generating yet more highends, which are completely useless. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Querns wrote:
A) We're already doing this. Trit is starting to even out, but mexallon and isogen do not have enough market volume to meet the demands of even a single nullsec producer. B) The sheer number of minerals required to do any meaningful production make befriending a highsec mining corporation (or 100 of them) infeasible. The market typically deals with these inefficiencies by dint of pricing, but there just isn't enough supply to go around, on account of the vast majority of the supply being reprocessed in a terrible manner. C) As stated earlier, the mineral composition of nullsec anomalies and belts is primarily highends. Mulching a Colossal hidden belt provides a mere pittance of lowends required, while generating yet more highends, which are completely useless.
to
A.) There is no shortage of supply in EvE for any item that is not hard capped. You can either pay more and provide an immediate incentive or you can wait if you think the inventive is high enough and people should come around. In any case the market is right and you are not.
B.) If that is a problem for you, you have the ingame tools to solve them.
C.) That is reinforcing my point. If you need Low-Ends in 0.0 you probably should pay a premium for it in 0.0 (or in highsec for the logistical effort). That way your miners might stop mining Arkonor and start mining Veldspar solving a few problems on the way.
You have viable industry now in 0.0, but that sword cuts both ways. By current design you can't have nullsec production costs and highsec supply costs. Personally i think that is a good thing. As i said, start recruiting miners. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
727
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote: C.) That is reinforcing my point. If you need Low-Ends in 0.0 you probably should pay a premium for it in 0.0 (or in highsec for the logistical effort). That way your miners might stop mining Arkonor and start mining Veldspar solving a few problems on the way.
i don't know why someone who doesn't know what an ore anomoly is feels qualified to comment on this issue, but be assured this is a remarkably dumb response |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:This is a slight cross post from my F&I Thread: The issue isn't just compression. The issue is that there is a huge demand for minerals in nullsec, and we have no viable way of even getting close to supplying our minerals locally. .
There is a way. Stop recruiting F1 monkeys and get actual people interested in industry and not only a 5 guys with cap BPOs.
|
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
14
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Posted - 2014.09.02 18:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote: C.) That is reinforcing my point. If you need Low-Ends in 0.0 you probably should pay a premium for it in 0.0 (or in highsec for the logistical effort). That way your miners might stop mining Arkonor and start mining Veldspar solving a few problems on the way.
i don't know why someone who doesn't know what an ore anomoly is feels qualified to comment on this issue, but be assured this is a remarkably dumb response
There is plenty of tritanium and pyerite in 0.0. Including anomalies. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
777
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:Querns wrote:
A) We're already doing this. Trit is starting to even out, but mexallon and isogen do not have enough market volume to meet the demands of even a single nullsec producer. B) The sheer number of minerals required to do any meaningful production make befriending a highsec mining corporation (or 100 of them) infeasible. The market typically deals with these inefficiencies by dint of pricing, but there just isn't enough supply to go around, on account of the vast majority of the supply being reprocessed in a terrible manner. C) As stated earlier, the mineral composition of nullsec anomalies and belts is primarily highends. Mulching a Colossal hidden belt provides a mere pittance of lowends required, while generating yet more highends, which are completely useless.
to A.) There is no shortage of supply in EvE for any item that is not hard capped. You can either pay more and provide an immediate incentive or you can wait if you think the inventive is high enough and people should come around. In any case the market is right and you are not. B.) If that is a problem for you, you have the ingame tools to solve them. C.) That is reinforcing my point. If you need Low-Ends in 0.0 you probably should pay a premium for it in 0.0 (or in highsec for the logistical effort). That way your miners might stop mining Arkonor and start mining Veldspar solving a few problems on the way. You have viable industry now in 0.0, but that sword cuts both ways. By current design you can't have nullsec production costs and highsec supply costs. Personally i think that is a good thing. As i said, start recruiting miners.
You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.
Nullsec mining primarily occurs by way of gravimetric anomalies. These sites have a static ore composition of many types, and are generated by the Infrastructure hub. Once one of these sites is fully mined out, it respawns to be mined again.
The problem this produces is that in order to get more of the lowend minerals you need, you have to mine an absolute truckload of useless highends. Looking at the (slightly dated, but useful for this example) Bloodtear Industry Report, we can see that the composition of a Large gravimetric site (the most commonly mined site) contains the following composition:
http://i.imgur.com/24LTeL3.png (the forums don't really handle tabular data well so an image will have to suffice)
In order to get the 400k lowends you need, you have to mulch through 945k of other stuff. This limits the intake of useful minerals considerably by adding a massive speedbump in the form of forced acquisition of sub-par minerals. These roadblocks disincentivize mining in nullsec considerably by not only forcing additional sub-optimal labor, but also reduce the profit of the activity of mining overall, encouraging potential miners to do other things. (Unlike what you may have heard, we don't believe in enslaving our line members.)
This is discounting the danger contained by mining in nullsec, but I'm willing to disregard this, as it's a separate issue (and one much less defensible at any rate.) I don't need it to prove my point. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
557
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Theory; Mex/Isogen shortage is partially due to the loot reprocessing nerf.
To verify, would need to figure out how large percentage of Mex/Isogen supply in Jita used to come from reprocessed loot rather than ore. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
727
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:There is plenty of tritanium and pyerite in 0.0. Including anomalies. yes, that is affirmatively not the case as anyone who has looked at the composition of a grav anomoly knows
this is like an embarrassingly basic mistake and it would really be best if you stopped posting so the more intelligent people could discuss |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.
I am not, i used to run quite a few mining ops in 0.0.
Nullsec mining primarily occurs by way of gravimetric anomalies.
Wrong. That is one option. Not one you are forced to take. Heck, even relic sites have plenty of ore. How about you adapt to the situation instead of wanting to be spoonfed everything?
[rabble about grav sites]
The primary reason people mined high ends in 0.0 and ignored low ends (because that is what happened) is because they usually needed to ship out the compressed ore to highsec (check the old compression ratio for veldspar, gl). One factor was the lack of market and industry in 0.0 (fixed now) and generally being treated like ass by the resident holders (taxes, **** deals compared to jita). All fixable now. As i said there is plenty of low end minerals in 0.0. Grav anomalies are one option among many. Importing stuff is another, but don't whine if you have to pay a premium.
This is discounting the danger contained by mining in nullsec, but I'm willing to disregard this, as it's a separate issue (and one much less defensible at any rate.)
Mining in your blue donut, if done right, is much less dangerous than in highsec. It is probably less AFKish but that is also a good thing. You also get much improved rorqual boosts in 0.0.
I don't need it to prove my point
Well, so far you haven't.
|
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
777
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:38:00 -
[31] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:
You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.
I am not, i used to run quite a few mining ops in 0.0.
You can run mining ops while still being dangerously misinformed about how things actually work.
Mining in RELIC sites? Really?
The entire crux of your argument is that people should engage in hideously sub-optimal money making strategies to produce a pittance of the materials needed while simultaneously hitting their heads against the brick wall that is the literal game mechanics of Eve: Online, instead of adding a very small concession to highsec to ease the movement of minerals throughout the market. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:46:00 -
[32] - Quote
Querns wrote:Grace Chang wrote:
You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.
I am not, i used to run quite a few mining ops in 0.0.
You can run mining ops while still being dangerously misinformed about how things actually work. Mining in RELIC sites? Really? The entire crux of your argument is that people should engage in hideously sub-optimal money making strategies to produce a pittance of the materials needed while simultaneously hitting their heads against the brick wall that is the literal game mechanics of Eve: Online, instead of adding a very small concession to highsec to ease the movement of minerals throughout the market.
You are entitled to your opinion. So am I to mine:
You want to adapt the game to your needs because you are lazy (what you call "sup-optimal"). You want to change the gameplay of many people, a gameplay i suspect you are not even remotely involved in (you are just interested in the end-product), to suit your needs. Your "very small concession" kills the gameplay for many people in highsec and something that could end up being a mini-profession. The truth of the matter is, your hassle is another persons opportunity. Too bad for you. Adapt and HTFU. |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
257
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode Baddest poster ever |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:00:00 -
[34] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:I think it's a better idea to solve this by education instead of changing stuff around. The need for a POS to compress Ore is a nice way to introduce players to use of posses for industrial needs instead using stations for everything. On the other hand it might be nice to use some underused PI products as ingredient or 'flux material' for station compression.
It appears this is not really a high sec miners not compressing problem though seeing your trit and pyerite numbers. It looks more like nobody mining Lowsec ores, which are the major supplier of Isogen/Nocx and in a lesser amount Mex.Which is weird, as they have been the best isk/hour ores in the game for a while and with the new compression ratios you get mad isk/m3 with compressed low sec ores.
As for the High End market collapse, I think CCP should've changed Ore anomalies the same way as they did Pirate anomalies. Remove most high end ores in -0.1 and -0.2 and have more, the lower the security rating gets.
Makes perfect sense tbh. With lowsec being the most dangerous region for miners, the prices have to go up a lot more i suspect before people bother to go there with a prospect. But wouldn't it be nice if they would actually eventually do that? |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
728
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote: You are entitled to your opinion. So am I to mine:
people are entitled to their own opinion
you seem to believe you are entitled to your own facts |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote: You are entitled to your opinion. So am I to mine:
people are entitled to their own opinion you seem to believe you are entitled to your own facts
The facts are these: Nobody has an issue with the compression but the few capital producers in 0.0 who want to acquire minerals at pre-crius prices and volumes.
Not a big issue at all. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
777
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote: You are entitled to your opinion. So am I to mine:
people are entitled to their own opinion you seem to believe you are entitled to your own facts The facts are these: Nobody has an issue with the compression but the few capital producers in 0.0 who want to acquire minerals at pre-crius prices and volumes. Not a big issue at all. Price isn't an issue for us. We'll gladly pay a premium for ore, especially considering we get 20% more minerals out of it compared to highsec. The issue is SUPPLY. There isn't enough supply. This is due to uninformed highsec miners continuing with their eleven years' habit of reprocessing their ore before moving it to market.
Supply and price are NOT the same thing. They're related, but not directly.
Education does not help end-users. My time spent in focus groups at my real life job has taught me that no amount of education can ever truly help users. The onus is on the developers to aid the user at all costs. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:30:00 -
[38] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote:Ore compression is fine. If people can't find enough of it, the simple reason is that they do not pay enough for it to be an incentive (basic market rule and all).
This is obviously untrue, and we've been seeing that since Crius was released. Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them. Furthermore the immense effort of compressing any reasonable amount of ore is not a fun addition to the game. Nobody wins when someone's doing an infinite number of round trips to their pos. Their pos has nothing valuble in it, their freighter doesn't either (and even if it did, it's ungankable unless they don't think to dock up) and the actual gameplay is basically a war crime. Anyone who wants to verify what I say is correct needs only look at the actual compressed ore volume in jita. I have simply halted my T1 building until it's fixed, and I'm not the only one. edit: I suspect the PL posters seeking to keep ore compression kneecapped are doing so because with their hordes of renters in the drone regions, they've got ample local ore supplies: http://i.imgur.com/nCFLg91.png. With ore compression currently basically unworkable right now, that means they have their competition idle and can raise prices. I wholeheartedly approve from a screw everyone get yours perspective, but it's not good game design.
As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:32:00 -
[39] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote: C.) That is reinforcing my point. If you need Low-Ends in 0.0 you probably should pay a premium for it in 0.0 (or in highsec for the logistical effort). That way your miners might stop mining Arkonor and start mining Veldspar solving a few problems on the way.
i don't know why someone who doesn't know what an ore anomoly is feels qualified to comment on this issue, but be assured this is a remarkably dumb response There is plenty of tritanium and pyerite in 0.0. Including anomalies.
You are wrong there, the compositions were changed several patches ago and are horrible, they added pyerite, nocs and mex in Crius but it is almost a non significant digit amount, I mean paltry |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
777
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote: As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy
"Don't worry, all you need is 13 capital-capable accounts and a titan and you don't have to worry about the change" This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
|
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy
"Don't worry, all you need is 13 capital-capable accounts and a titan and you don't have to worry about the change"
23 accounts, several more inactive, several titans and almost every account is capital capable
so, yeah, I'm good |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
777
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy
"Don't worry, all you need is 13 capital-capable accounts and a titan and you don't have to worry about the change" 23 accounts, several more inactive, several titans and almost every account is capital capable so, yeah, I'm good You'll have to excuse me for suggesting that the game not be balanced on your particular fulcrum. :V This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:02:00 -
[43] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy
"Don't worry, all you need is 13 capital-capable accounts and a titan and you don't have to worry about the change" 23 accounts, several more inactive, several titans and almost every account is capital capable so, yeah, I'm good You'll have to excuse me for suggesting that the game not be balanced on your particular fulcrum. :V
No worries m8, CCP did it for you |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:09:00 -
[44] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:You'll have to excuse me for suggesting that the game not be balanced on your particular fulcrum. :V No worries m8, CCP did it for you Thus, the point of the thread -- to provide an alternative to such ridiculousness. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:You'll have to excuse me for suggesting that the game not be balanced on your particular fulcrum. :V No worries m8, CCP did it for you Thus, the point of the thread -- to provide an alternative to such ridiculousness.
I guess I haven't addressed your OP much, mainly pointing out inaccuracies of some of the mining theory-crafters in this thread.
That being said to your OP:
Education is the key. I flew around and found corps of miners, talked to them, educated them, now I have brokered deals with them to buy every piece of ore they mine. I have now 8 corps on my roster and I buy everything, I haul it for them.
Now before you get up in arms about freighters, red frog does the same thing - I am just one stop shopping.
This is not rocket science but sitting in Jita and bitching and moaning about the compressed ore not coming to you is stupid
425mm railguns never came to you either, but in the end you figured out a way to get them
This is NO DIFFERENT
You need to figure out how to get ore or compressed ore, the tools are there for you to use |
mup Deninard
mupcorp
9
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:40:00 -
[46] - Quote
one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
mup Deninard wrote:one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas.
Giving the orca the ability to compress is something I've thought about. I'd still prefer station compression, but this would also be a compromise that would be acceptable. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
728
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:55:00 -
[48] - Quote
Querns wrote:mup Deninard wrote:one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas. Giving the orca the ability to compress is something I've thought about. I'd still prefer station compression, but this would also be a compromise that would be acceptable. Yeah, this is a solid compromise. |
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
80
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:56:00 -
[49] - Quote
mup Deninard wrote:one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas.
Thats most of the points I was making in the previous thread. Putting up a POS as a small corp just ain't worth the hassle, and it never will be.
On the other hand, letting an Orca compress might not be such a bad idea.
It wouldn't be immediately available to everyone joining the game, and the skill training means a lot of new players wouldn't even bother training for it anyway. But the compressed ore available would still increase.
It would increase simply because it would be hassle free for established miners, unlike now. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
For those worried that allowing the orca to compress would (further) step on the rorqual's toes, fear not -- CCP has stated that the rorqual is next in line for rebalancing. Given the previous track record, I'm putting pretty good odds on a significant curve ball for the rorqual that will set it apart. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:This is NO DIFFERENT
You, sir, are wrong.
Sourcing low end minerals has always been a problem for nullsec. Null belts simply do not contain meaningful amounts of low end minerals, as demonstrated by the recent changes to high end ores to include more low end minerals. Despite these changes, there are still not enough low end minerals in null to meet the demands of nullsec.
Compression via 425's was not a solution to the problem; it was merely addressing the symptoms. The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it.
As Querns mentioned above, miners have been mining and refining their ores for 11 years without change. Now that this change has hit, miners are still mining and refining their ore. High sec miners have spent huge amounts of time to train refining/reprocessing skills for maximum yield, and now you simply expect them to sell their ores raw? What is that saying for the actual skillpoints invested in refining and reprocessing skills in high sec?
In addition- the changes in Crius were intended to spread production away from a centralized hub. Nullsec stations have bonuses to production and to refining in an effort to encourage localized markets in null. How does it make sense then to require nullsec to still reach out to Jita for the most basic and common of t1 materials?
The problem is beyond compression. It's the fact that we're forced to go to high sec to source the most common building blocks in the game- even with attempting to supply ourselves via local mining. There is no reason that hundreds of miners in Deklein should strip entire systems of ore and still not have enough iso/mex to build one supercarrier, much less a titan. Our mineral demands for sub caps are equal or greater than the mineral demand for supers, as we (everyone) loses significantly more minerals via sub caps than we do from capital deaths. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:This is NO DIFFERENT You, sir, are wrong. Sourcing low end minerals has always been a problem for nullsec. Null belts simply do not contain meaningful amounts of low end minerals, as demonstrated by the recent changes to high end ores to include more low end minerals. Despite these changes, there are still not enough low end minerals in null to meet the demands of nullsec. Compression via 425's was not a solution to the problem; it was merely addressing the symptoms. The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it. As Querns mentioned above, miners have been mining and refining their ores for 11 years without change. Now that this change has hit, miners are still mining and refining their ore. High sec miners have spent huge amounts of time to train refining/reprocessing skills for maximum yield, and now you simply expect them to sell their ores raw? What is that saying for the actual skillpoints invested in refining and reprocessing skills in high sec? In addition- the changes in Crius were intended to spread production away from a centralized hub. Nullsec stations have bonuses to production and to refining in an effort to encourage localized markets in null. How does it make sense then to require nullsec to still reach out to Jita for the most basic and common of t1 materials? The problem is beyond compression. It's the fact that we're forced to go to high sec to source the most common building blocks in the game- even with attempting to supply ourselves via local mining. There is no reason that hundreds of miners in Deklein should strip entire systems of ore and still not have enough iso/mex to build one supercarrier, much less a titan. Our mineral demands for sub caps are equal or greater than the mineral demand for supers, as we (everyone) loses significantly more minerals via sub caps than we do from capital deaths.
You took me out of context
the no different was both for 425's vs ore compression
BOTH are sourcing minerals from high sec
If people have been doing something for 11 years and now you need them to do something different, bitching on forums to get CCP to change it back isn't the answer. Education is key my friend - that also is NOT CCP's job
If you want to get to a different discussion on how viable mining is in nullsec ---> forum is that way
Last year at EvE Vegas when anomoly changes were coming and Mexallon was getting the big nerf bat, we complained and everyone toed the same line "We will monitor"
In lieu of them changing, you must overcome and adapt, obviously, you have been unable, I have been able with little or no fuss whatsoever
Don't start changing the argument midstream |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it.
I will just leave this here for the above poster.
In regards to the Orca compression- yes, that would help, but again does not solve the core issue. That would be a good interim fix while CCP figures out how to address null mining.
|
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it. I will just leave this here for the above poster. In regards to the Orca compression- yes, that would help, but again does not solve the core issue. That would be a good interim fix while CCP figures out how to address null mining.
So, educate the miners to not refine, it isn't difficult and I have had GREAT success at doing it, I suggest you try the same. It would require you to talk to pubbies, which is beneath you, I understand.
or you can continue to ***** and moan here
Your call |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:24:00 -
[55] - Quote
Oddly enough, education is the idea of my second point -- putting UI hints in the reprocessing dialog to point towards compression (of any form) does a darn sight better at educating than speaking to individual miners. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:19:00 -
[56] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:This is NO DIFFERENT You, sir, are wrong. Sourcing low end minerals has always been a problem for nullsec. Null belts simply do not contain meaningful amounts of low end minerals, as demonstrated by the recent changes to high end ores to include more low end minerals. Despite these changes, there are still not enough low end minerals in null to meet the demands of nullsec. Compression via 425's was not a solution to the problem; it was merely addressing the symptoms. The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it. As Querns mentioned above, miners have been mining and refining their ores for 11 years without change. Now that this change has hit, miners are still mining and refining their ore. High sec miners have spent huge amounts of time to train refining/reprocessing skills for maximum yield, and now you simply expect them to sell their ores raw? What is that saying for the actual skillpoints invested in refining and reprocessing skills in high sec? In addition- the changes in Crius were intended to spread production away from a centralized hub. Nullsec stations have bonuses to production and to refining in an effort to encourage localized markets in null. How does it make sense then to require nullsec to still reach out to Jita for the most basic and common of t1 materials? The problem is beyond compression. It's the fact that we're forced to go to high sec to source the most common building blocks in the game- even with attempting to supply ourselves via local mining. There is no reason that hundreds of miners in Deklein should strip entire systems of ore and still not have enough iso/mex to build one supercarrier, much less a titan. Our mineral demands for sub caps are equal or greater than the mineral demand for supers, as we (everyone) loses significantly more minerals via sub caps than we do from capital deaths. You took me out of context the no different was both for 425's vs ore compression BOTH are sourcing minerals from high sec If people have been doing something for 11 years and now you need them to do something different, bitching on forums to get CCP to change it back isn't the answer. Education is key my friend - that also is NOT CCP's job If you want to get to a different discussion on how viable mining is in nullsec ---> forum is that way Last year at EvE Vegas when anomoly changes were coming and Mexallon was getting the big nerf bat, we complained and everyone toed the same line "We will monitor" In lieu of them changing, you must overcome and adapt, obviously, you have been unable, I have been able with little or no fuss whatsoever Don't start changing the argument midstream
There is a big diffrence between 425 compression and ore compression.
1 account could supply you with around 4 billion trit a week with only 1 hour play time max. You would simply buy in jita, ship it wiht red frog/push x and then use 3 charecters to build railguns. So basicly anyone could do it.
Now for compression you need 10 freighters to reduce the tiem it takes to haul ores, you cant outsource that part coz couriers dont go to POS. And even with 10 freighters you spend alot more then 1 hour hauling all that **** |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
113
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:27:00 -
[57] - Quote
Firvain wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:This is NO DIFFERENT You, sir, are wrong. Sourcing low end minerals has always been a problem for nullsec. Null belts simply do not contain meaningful amounts of low end minerals, as demonstrated by the recent changes to high end ores to include more low end minerals. Despite these changes, there are still not enough low end minerals in null to meet the demands of nullsec. Compression via 425's was not a solution to the problem; it was merely addressing the symptoms. The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it. As Querns mentioned above, miners have been mining and refining their ores for 11 years without change. Now that this change has hit, miners are still mining and refining their ore. High sec miners have spent huge amounts of time to train refining/reprocessing skills for maximum yield, and now you simply expect them to sell their ores raw? What is that saying for the actual skillpoints invested in refining and reprocessing skills in high sec? In addition- the changes in Crius were intended to spread production away from a centralized hub. Nullsec stations have bonuses to production and to refining in an effort to encourage localized markets in null. How does it make sense then to require nullsec to still reach out to Jita for the most basic and common of t1 materials? The problem is beyond compression. It's the fact that we're forced to go to high sec to source the most common building blocks in the game- even with attempting to supply ourselves via local mining. There is no reason that hundreds of miners in Deklein should strip entire systems of ore and still not have enough iso/mex to build one supercarrier, much less a titan. Our mineral demands for sub caps are equal or greater than the mineral demand for supers, as we (everyone) loses significantly more minerals via sub caps than we do from capital deaths. You took me out of context the no different was both for 425's vs ore compression BOTH are sourcing minerals from high sec If people have been doing something for 11 years and now you need them to do something different, bitching on forums to get CCP to change it back isn't the answer. Education is key my friend - that also is NOT CCP's job If you want to get to a different discussion on how viable mining is in nullsec ---> forum is that way Last year at EvE Vegas when anomoly changes were coming and Mexallon was getting the big nerf bat, we complained and everyone toed the same line "We will monitor" In lieu of them changing, you must overcome and adapt, obviously, you have been unable, I have been able with little or no fuss whatsoever Don't start changing the argument midstream There is a big diffrence between 425 compression and ore compression. 1 account could supply you with around 4 billion trit a week with only 1 hour play time max. You would simply buy in jita, ship it wiht red frog/push x and then use 3 charecters to build railguns. So basicly anyone could do it.Now for compression you need 10 freighters to reduce the tiem it takes to haul ores, you cant outsource that part coz couriers dont go to POS. And even with 10 freighters you spend alot more then 1 hour hauling all that ****
So, basically you are mad cause it isn't "EZ MODE" anymore?
I am not going to spill the beans on my operation, but suffice it to say
If you are doing it this way, no wonder you are pissed
YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1495
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:27:00 -
[58] - Quote
Firvain wrote:
There is a big diffrence between 425 compression and ore compression.
1 account could supply you with around 4 billion trit a week with only 1 hour play time max. You would simply buy in jita, ship it wiht red frog/push x and then use 3 charecters to build railguns. So basicly anyone could do it.
Now for compression you need 10 freighters to reduce the tiem it takes to haul ores, you cant outsource that part coz couriers dont go to POS. And even with 10 freighters you spend alot more then 1 hour hauling all that ****
Oh dear, CCP decided that 425 compression was OP and changed it.... What is it you Nullbears like to say... Adapt or Die! Seriously. You cry worse than any highsec player I've ever seen, Dinsdale included.
As for having to source items from high sec, personally Null should have no low ends at all. No area of space should be independent of the others economy, High sec depends on Null for High Ends, Null should depend on High Sec for Low Ends, or the economies go out of balance if Null can be totally independent.
And on small mining corps not affording a POS. Become a Large mining corp instead. Finally, a reason in High Sec to actually play with other people. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2199
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:28:00 -
[59] - Quote
Querns wrote:Grace Chang wrote:
You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.
I am not, i used to run quite a few mining ops in 0.0.
You can run mining ops while still being dangerously misinformed about how things actually work. Mining in RELIC sites? Really? The entire crux of your argument is that people should engage in hideously sub-optimal money making strategies to produce a pittance of the materials needed while simultaneously hitting their heads against the brick wall that is the literal game mechanics of Eve: Online, instead of adding a very small concession to highsec to ease the movement of minerals throughout the market.
How is it sub optimal when you have a shortage?
Put some mining fleets out there and stop expecting all the highsec noobies to take all the risks in mining for you.
As far as compression, I check every week or so to see if compressing will pay me more then refining. Right now refining pays better. If you want more compressed ore out of highec, raise the price on your buys. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
122
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:30:00 -
[60] - Quote
I find this thread very interesting. It is quite similar to many of the threads in the WH forum.
CCP has changed the mechanics of the game and it is having an impact on the way many in null sec play the game. Instead of asking CCP to change the game to meet null sec needs and effecting everyone else I respectfully suggest null try to adapt to the changes.
Let us see, how do I now get all the minerals I need to build my fleet of capital ships?
I could slow down production. I could hire miners to mine the low ends exclusively in null sec (better pay them appropriately). Yes, that means anomalies, combat sites, belts (shudder) of many systems. I could hold mining ops in low sec. I could take control of some low sec systems for the sole purpose of mining them. I could hire hi sec miner corps to produce what I need. I could hire hi sec transport outfits to haul and compress. I could, wait for it, mine in WH space while linked to my null sec systems. I could hire WH corps to mine and transport for me.
I could do any combination of the above WITHOUT affecting the rest of the game by insisting on a mechanics change.
Compression mechanics as is is just fine. Time to expand your horizons and possibilities. Of all the podcasts I listen to Hyrdostatic is the best! http://hydrostaticpodcast.blogspot.ca/ Nolen Cadmar spreadsheets: Excellent value, great customer service. Don't wait and check them out. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=295315 |
|
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
113
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:32:00 -
[61] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:I find this thread very interesting. It is quite similar to many of the threads in the WH forum.
CCP has changed the mechanics of the game and it is having an impact on the way many in null sec play the game. Instead of asking CCP to change the game to meet null sec needs and effecting everyone else I respectfully suggest null try to adapt to the changes.
Let us see, how do I now get all the minerals I need to build my fleet of capital ships?
I could slow down production. I could hire miners to mine the low ends exclusively in null sec (better pay them appropriately). Yes, that means anomalies, combat sites, belts (shudder) of many systems. I could hold mining ops in low sec. I could take control of some low sec systems for the sole purpose of mining them. I could hire hi sec miner corps to produce what I need. I could hire hi sec transport outfits to haul and compress. I could, wait for it, mine in WH space while linked to my null sec systems. I could hire WH corps to mine and transport for me.
I could do any combination of the above WITHOUT affecting the rest of the game by insisting on a mechanics change.
Compression mechanics as is is just fine. Time to expand your horizons and possibilities.
Did you steal my notes??? |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
122
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:38:00 -
[62] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Tzar Sinak wrote:I find this thread very interesting. It is quite similar to many of the threads in the WH forum.
CCP has changed the mechanics of the game and it is having an impact on the way many in null sec play the game. Instead of asking CCP to change the game to meet null sec needs and effecting everyone else I respectfully suggest null try to adapt to the changes.
Let us see, how do I now get all the minerals I need to build my fleet of capital ships?
I could slow down production. I could hire miners to mine the low ends exclusively in null sec (better pay them appropriately). Yes, that means anomalies, combat sites, belts (shudder) of many systems. I could hold mining ops in low sec. I could take control of some low sec systems for the sole purpose of mining them. I could hire hi sec miner corps to produce what I need. I could hire hi sec transport outfits to haul and compress. I could, wait for it, mine in WH space while linked to my null sec systems. I could hire WH corps to mine and transport for me.
I could do any combination of the above WITHOUT affecting the rest of the game by insisting on a mechanics change.
Compression mechanics as is is just fine. Time to expand your horizons and possibilities. Did you steal my notes???
Na, just looking at the obvious. Seems that the only education required around here is among the null sec industrialists :) Of all the podcasts I listen to Hyrdostatic is the best! http://hydrostaticpodcast.blogspot.ca/ Nolen Cadmar spreadsheets: Excellent value, great customer service. Don't wait and check them out. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=295315 |
klana depp
Tr0pa de elite. Pandemic Legion
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 23:21:00 -
[63] - Quote
mup Deninard wrote:one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin.
sorry that i'm too lazy to actually run the numbers on this but.. seriously? putting up a small tower with just a compression array .. running for a few hours... is a financial obstacle for a highsec mining op? ?!? |
Basil Vulpine
Blueprint Haus Get Off My Lawn
42
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 23:55:00 -
[64] - Quote
klana depp wrote:mup Deninard wrote:one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. sorry that i'm too lazy to actually run the numbers on this but.. seriously? putting up a small tower with just a compression array .. running for a few hours... is a financial obstacle for a highsec mining op? ?!?
For a small corp they likely don't have an orca (if a small POS is expensive an orca is eyewatering). Lets say they have decent skills so exhumers is at 4 and can use T1 mining crystals. They've been ganked once or twice so they aren't in a hulk. They have somebody who is hauling their cans for them, it's an alt account so "it is free" and it lets them just sit and mine.
A reasonably durable skiff/mackinaw with skills at 4 mines roughly 1,000 m3 per second. They are mining veldspar because we are talking about people mining low-ends, ISK wise Plagioclase ends up 20% higher roughly. Under these conditions each miner earns roughly 170k ISK per minute or a bit over 10 mill per hour mining Veld continuously.
A small POS is 60 mill. The compression array about 35 mil. Fuel blocks are 160k per hour. Assuming they are aware that they can simply leave the POS offline most of the time and just run it for 2 hours a day the fuel is negligible. The hardware is going to take them 10 man hours to acquire so probably a whole evenings worth for a 2 or 3 man outfit.
Would you commit an evening for you and a couple of friends to buy something you don't really understand, is a little bit daunting because everybody says that the UI for it is unfriendly and that doesn't seem to benefit you much? Sure it makes the ore easier to move but then so does refining it. And they can refine it pretty well if they have T1 or T2 crystals in their strip miners. Or they can can work towards that 80 hours per month they need to be able to plex their account and then use the extra ISK for skillbooks etc. while they skill up for whatever. |
Korsiri
Epilogue Enterprises
110
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 00:37:00 -
[65] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Do not change ore compression.
If you absolutely must, simplify the three ore types into one compressed type, but otherwise do not touch anything. The system is fine.
Educate miners. Make a pretty video with CCP Guard in front of blackboard teaching simple math to bads.
Even if you don't change ore compression CCP Guard should do this ^_^
But anywho, I don't think ore compression needs to change, just because the market isn't there yet since people aren't all waking up to it. That's just a silly reason to change something that's working. I think people just need more time to get used to the idea.
|
Prophet Tier
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 01:21:00 -
[66] - Quote
ITT goons whinging about CCP fixing an unintended game mechanic which they were abusing (425s). Simple solution, goons: adapt like everyone else instead of crying. Adjust your prices enough to make some entrepreneurial "pubbie" (to use your vernacular) set up a pos, haul, compress, and relist. Your prices are obviously not good enough for this possibly emerging market to be created.
Korsiri wrote:Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Do not change ore compression.
If you absolutely must, simplify the three ore types into one compressed type, but otherwise do not touch anything. The system is fine.
Educate miners. Make a pretty video with CCP Guard in front of blackboard teaching simple math to bads.
Even if you don't change ore compression CCP Guard should do this ^_^ But anywho, I don't think ore compression needs to change, just because the market isn't there yet since people aren't all waking up to it. That's just a silly reason to change something that's working. I think people just need more time to get used to the idea.
Confirming both of these. |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
200
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 01:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
--Content Deleted-- |
Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
9
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 01:42:00 -
[68] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: As for having to source items from high sec, personally Null should have no low ends at all. No area of space should be independent of the others economy, High sec depends on Null for High Ends, Null should depend on High Sec for Low Ends, or the economies go out of balance if Null can be totally independent..
"The most common ore type in the known universe, Veldspar can be found almost everywhere. It is still in constant demand as it holds a large portion of the much-used tritanium mineral"
Given the description of this 'low end' ore, any suggestion that it not be in null is ludicrous. In fact the +varieties should be more prevalent and in larger chunks as you progress into null. |
Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
9
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 02:49:00 -
[69] - Quote
There are several issues that are complicating the discussion.
3rd party hauling access to POS and proportions are off-kilter. If I can drop something into a Corp Hanger but not remove it due to roles there's no reason to not have a module that does the same, ie 'personal hanger' or Silo at POS. Yeah, I' guessing this is a code nightmare and akin to why BP's were 'simplified' and therefore will not get traction.
Skills needed to T2 mining crystals point to refining, not compression. The lightly absurd solution would be akin to the recent Light and Medium Drone skills splits.
Skill for Refining. Skill for Compression. Toons that have Refining get a matching Compression. Still be a PITA for toons that plan on doing both, but oh well.
Tie ALL T2 mining crystals to lvl III of either (+ the specialization?), ie, you get T2 crystals to mine straight ores, lvl IV gives you compression / refining depending on your path according to the current Reprocessing -> Reprocessing Efficiency schedule.
Mercoxit is the bugger ore to resolve since it's the only one that needs Astrogeology V so you can fit the Deep Core mining lasers (at present you can refine it but not mine it at the same lvl of skilling). Perhaps drop the Deep Core requirement to Astrogeology IV for the mining lasers+Crystals, leaving V for Exhumers (allowing the lesser Procurer to fit it, while the T2 ships would still get better yield).
Ore grades and individual rock volumes are not as one would expect in null rock anoms, or belts for that matter. System upgrades / Industry index could also boost mining yields of ships in that system just as the Research-Manufacture bonuses do now in stations. This could stack on top of Fleet booster+ship skills.
Guns stop shooting when rats or pvp's pop so why in the world mining lasers need to finish upwards of a 3 minute cycle to realize the rock is gone is beyond comprehension.
While we're at it...when will be able to get refined ice products into a specialized cargo hold...either back into the Miasmos as Ice specialist or into a Kryos as the refined (admittedly refined mineral) hauler.
I realize that the OP is referencing ore distribution and volumes/+ores in various security lvls of EVE which is a Universe down view, while my post is a solo-miner up view. |
Kusum Fawn
State Protectorate Caldari State
527
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 03:28:00 -
[70] - Quote
Perhaps if goons hadn't had such a long and successful campaign to crush hisec miners there would be more of them at a level to sell compressed ore? Dont goons have huge space holdings? are they even mining it? bit the hand that fed you a bit too hard it sounds like Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
|
HarlyQ
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 04:00:00 -
[71] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Perhaps if goons hadn't had such a long and successful campaign to crush hisec miners there would be more of them at a level to sell compressed ore? Dont goons have huge space holdings? are they even mining it? bit the hand that fed you a bit too hard it sounds like So we mine but with the amount's of ore in the ore belts that spawn off I-Hub upgrades its mainly noxcium zydrine and megacyte you get not the lowend's. Just ask theta who mines now many of them will admit to it now. |
Kusum Fawn
State Protectorate Caldari State
528
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 04:04:00 -
[72] - Quote
HarlyQ wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:Perhaps if goons hadn't had such a long and successful campaign to crush hisec miners there would be more of them at a level to sell compressed ore? Dont goons have huge space holdings? are they even mining it? bit the hand that fed you a bit too hard it sounds like So we mine but with the amount's of ore in the ore belts that spawn off I-Hub upgrades its mainly noxcium zydrine and megacyte you get not the lowend's. Just ask theta who mines now many of them will admit to it now. Can you get one of them to post some belt numbers? this thread is noticeably light on any semblance of average numbers of mineral compositions.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
128
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 04:18:00 -
[73] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:As far as compression, I check every week or so to see if compressing will pay me more then refining. Right now refining pays better. If you want more compressed ore out of highec, raise the price on your buys. I don't know where in high sec you are, Sentamon, but I suspect something is wrong with your math.
Currently in Jita, the buy order price for Tritanium is 5.34 isk each. The buy order price for Compressed Veldspar is 2061 isk each.
Assume you have mined 1M units of Veldspar. That is 100k m3: less than 4 mackinaws, or less than a single orca. In a high sec NPC station, with maximum skills and the refining implant, you can turn that into 3,004,600 tritanium and sell it to the buy order for 16,044,564 isk. Or, you could turn that 1M units of Veldspar into 10k units of compressed veldspar and sell it to the buy order for 20,610,000 isk. To compress the ore cost you 1 hour of fuel at a small POS, which is between 150k and 200k isk depending on the faction.
So compressing this 100k of ore would net 4.3M isk more than refining. Bonus, it also made it much smaller and easier to haul. This has been consistent for the last several weeks.
I'll let you do the math on all the other high sec ores. Then figure out how much ore you can fly to your POS and compress in the hour your POS is online.
|
Lennvas
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 04:50:00 -
[74] - Quote
First of, I reallly like the new UI, makes a lot of stuff go faster. Still, it would be great if the list of blueprints could be filtered by specific locations, eg I have some blueprints in a container because i dont use them currently, but they still show up. That blows up the list in the UI to the point where I use the normal inventory to accses the blueprints for work. Sorting blueprints by containers would be something I really appreciate. And simmiliar to this, can we please be enabled to rename divisions in corphangars? For the same purpose of organization that would be very helpfull. |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
128
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 04:59:00 -
[75] - Quote
This thread seems to have devolved into two camps yelling at each other.
The OP and others (most of whom seem to have the Goonswarm tag) saying that this is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Compression needs to be made as simple as possible, because high-sec miners are too stupid to do anything that takes more steps than click->refine. Also, we just got 20% better refineries than high sec, which means our minerals should be 25% cheaper than theirs.
The other camp is going, "Hooray, the Goons are having trouble building supercaps!" They also seem to be dancing around trying to avoid saying, "I found a new way to make isk flying a freighter around in high sec, being a middle-man between the miners and the capital producers." As Red Frog and Push-X have proven, there are plenty of people in high sec with freighters who will fly them around for easy brainless isk.
Personally, I think the mini-profession of ore wholesaler should exist. Maybe the market will settle at 15% (or so) higher prices for compressed ore than minerals, and the people in null sec don't get their full 20% price advantage. Just because slow adopters have caused supply problems in the first month does not mean compression needs to be completely changed again. (Yet.)
I also agree that the UI could help educate people. Currently when refining in an NPC station there are little numbers at the bottom: value of the ore on one side, value of the minerals on the other side. Add a profit number (subtract the one from the other). If the value of the ore is more than the value of the minerals, which it should be if the wholesalers are doing their jobs properly, put it in big red numbers, "If you push that button, you are losing isk!" I believe a large number of miners will stop and think, "Why is that?" which will lead them to discover compression.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 05:04:00 -
[76] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:This thread seems to have devolved into two camps yelling at each other.
The OP and others (most of whom seem to have the Goonswarm tag) saying that this is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Compression needs to be made as simple as possible, because high-sec miners are too stupid to do anything that takes more steps than click->refine. Also, we just got 20% better refineries than high sec, which means our minerals should be 25% cheaper than theirs.
This is a pretty unfair representation of my stance. I don't think highsec miners are stupid; they're just fighting against 11 years of learned behavior. That stuff doesn't change overnight for anyone, regardless of their preferred home.
People are also harping on ore price -- I confess to not understand this point. Nowhere in my posts have I said that we want compressed ore to have no value-add or that we want it to be cheap. We just want it to be available, period. There is a huge supply deficit that hasn't been made up, and that is my concern. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
128
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 05:05:00 -
[77] - Quote
Firvain wrote:Ive got buy orders up in jita 24/7 and buying all the high sec ores. After 2 weeks of buying everything...
The biggest problem is that there just isnt enough ore moved in Jita market total. If i where to buy all the omber thats beeing traded over there I still wouldnt have enough omber. That is including Silvery omber and Golden omber.
There are two reasons you cannot get enough omber in Jita.
1) It does not spawn in Caldari space. Try a Gallente hub? 2) It has been among the worst isk/hr ores for years and years. Therefore, most miners mine everything else before the omber.
Neither of these are issues with ore compression. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2200
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 05:45:00 -
[78] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:Sentamon wrote:As far as compression, I check every week or so to see if compressing will pay me more then refining. Right now refining pays better. If you want more compressed ore out of highec, raise the price on your buys. I don't know where in high sec you are, Sentamon, but I suspect something is wrong with your math. Currently in Jita, the buy order price for Tritanium is 5.34 isk each. The buy order price for Compressed Veldspar is 2061 isk each. Assume you have mined 1M units of Veldspar. That is 100k m3: less than 4 mackinaws, or less than a single orca. In a high sec NPC station, with maximum skills and the refining implant, you can turn that into 3,004,600 tritanium and sell it to the buy order for 16,044,564 isk. Or, you could turn that 1M units of Veldspar into 10k units of compressed veldspar and sell it to the buy order for 20,610,000 isk. To compress the ore cost you 1 hour of fuel at a small POS, which is between 150k and 200k isk depending on the faction. So compressing this 100k of ore would net 4.3M isk more than refining. Bonus, it also made it much smaller and easier to haul. This has been consistent for the last several weeks. I'll let you do the math on all the other high sec ores. Then figure out how much ore you can fly to your POS and compress in the hour your POS is online.
Sounds good, but that's not quite how it works.
First you expect miners to take roughly a 20-30% loss to mine Veldspar instead of the top 4 ores. Then you want them to go through the POS hassle. For that to happen Comp Veldspar prices would have to be more profitable then mining Pyrox as an example.
What happens now is the smart miners hit the top 4 highsec ores, refine and fill the orders for Pye, Mex, and Noc, and whatever Trit is left over from the refine is being hordor until the next price spike.
To use your example. Comp Veld would need to be about 2400 isk each to make it ever worth looking at.
Also did a quick check on Compressed Pyrox and it would be a 20% loss selling Pyrox compressed instead of refining. Thats assuming I want to sell the Trit at these extremely low prices.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Kusum Fawn
State Protectorate Caldari State
530
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 05:53:00 -
[79] - Quote
Querns wrote:Grace Chang wrote:Querns wrote:
A) We're already doing this. Trit is starting to even out, but mexallon and isogen do not have enough market volume to meet the demands of even a single nullsec producer. B) The sheer number of minerals required to do any meaningful production make befriending a highsec mining corporation (or 100 of them) infeasible. The market typically deals with these inefficiencies by dint of pricing, but there just isn't enough supply to go around, on account of the vast majority of the supply being reprocessed in a terrible manner. C) As stated earlier, the mineral composition of nullsec anomalies and belts is primarily highends. Mulching a Colossal hidden belt provides a mere pittance of lowends required, while generating yet more highends, which are completely useless.
to A.) There is no shortage of supply in EvE for any item that is not hard capped. You can either pay more and provide an immediate incentive or you can wait if you think the inventive is high enough and people should come around. In any case the market is right and you are not. B.) If that is a problem for you, you have the ingame tools to solve them. C.) That is reinforcing my point. If you need Low-Ends in 0.0 you probably should pay a premium for it in 0.0 (or in highsec for the logistical effort). That way your miners might stop mining Arkonor and start mining Veldspar solving a few problems on the way. You have viable industry now in 0.0, but that sword cuts both ways. By current design you can't have nullsec production costs and highsec supply costs. Personally i think that is a good thing. As i said, start recruiting miners. You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining. Nullsec mining primarily occurs by way of gravimetric anomalies. These sites have a static ore composition of many types, and are generated by the Infrastructure hub. Once one of these sites is fully mined out, it respawns to be mined again. The problem this produces is that in order to get more of the lowend minerals you need, you have to mine an absolute truckload of useless highends. Looking at the (slightly dated, but useful for this example) Bloodtear Industry Report, we can see that the composition of a Large gravimetric site (the most commonly mined site) contains the following composition: http://i.imgur.com/24LTeL3.png (the forums don't really handle tabular data well so an image will have to suffice) In order to get the 400k lowends you need, you have to mulch through 945k of other stuff. This limits the intake of useful minerals considerably by adding a massive speedbump in the form of forced acquisition of sub-par minerals. These roadblocks disincentivize mining in nullsec considerably by not only forcing additional sub-optimal labor, but also reduce the profit of the activity of mining overall, encouraging potential miners to do other things. (Unlike what you may have heard, we don't believe in enslaving our line members.) This is discounting the danger contained by mining in nullsec, but I'm willing to disregard this, as it's a separate issue (and one much less defensible at any rate.) I don't need it to prove my point.
You are talking about 400k of low ends being Nocx?
The large grav site as described yeilds approx 7 million M/3 of ore, which then compresses to 26,578 m/3 and refines (at 100% i haven't calculated to max refine in null station yet) to Trit 39 808 750 Pyre 28 266 600 Mex 2 851 900 iso 1 225 200 nocx 455 700 zyd 672 250 mega 365 500
the Nocx comes from the Crokite, Hemorphite, jaspet and hedbergite in that order. It appears that your arguement is "we dont want to mine the low ends in standard asteroid belts so mining and compression is broken" Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 06:02:00 -
[80] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:You are talking about 400k of low ends being Nocx? No -- I meant the Omber. Nocx is a highend, and is cratering. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
|
Kusum Fawn
State Protectorate Caldari State
532
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 06:23:00 -
[81] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:You are talking about 400k of low ends being Nocx? No -- I meant the Omber. Nocx is a highend, and is cratering.
Then that leaves me a bit confused, you are mining omber just to get omber? i would have thought it about the mineral content? 400k omber yeilds Trit 340 000 Pyre 136 000 Iso 340 000
"In order to get the 400k lowends you need, you have to mulch through 945k of other stuff. This limits the intake of useful minerals considerably by adding a massive speedbump in the form of forced acquisition of sub-par minerals. These roadblocks disincentivize mining in nullsec considerably by not only forcing additional sub-optimal labor, but also reduce the profit of the activity of mining overall, encouraging potential miners to do other things."
in order to get 400k units of omber (240 000 m/3) you need to mulch through 6 825 000 m/3 of more valuable ores both by mineral content and isk values ?
Im not sure what the actual issue you were attempting to use Omber to hi-light. Omber is the least valuable ore by m/3 and mineral content its absence is not particularly notable in compression markets. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 06:32:00 -
[82] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Querns wrote:[quote=Kusum Fawn]You are talking about 400k of low ends being Nocx? in order to get 400k units of omber (240 000 m/3) you need to mulch through 6 825 000 m/3 of more valuable ores both by mineral content and isk values ? You need to mulch through the 6.8 million m^3 of other stuff to get the anomaly to respawn. That's the issue -- nullsec can't just magick up a particular type of ore that it needs; it's forced to mine a bunch of unusable garbage in order to get the right mineral compositions to build basically anything.
This is sort of off topic, however; there's another thread at https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=370404 specifically about nullsec mining site compositions. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 06:33:00 -
[83] - Quote
I don't understand why some 'small corp' thinks having a POS is out of their scope. My first POS in New Eden was anchored by our two-men corp (with no alts). And back then we had to grind faction standings all the way to have a high-sec POS, which took a lot of effort. Also it was way before the fuel blocks were introduced and filling up POS fuel was real PITA.
Now POS can be anchored anywhere in high-sec with no standing requirement. Now there is convenience of fuel block. Now there are advantages of manufacturing at high-sec POS. Now you can even compress ores to make even more profit - and heck, compression is instant and doesn't require any BPC.
It is already SO EASY now to have a high-sec POS and compress ores. Just anchor a freaking POS and be done with it. |
Oxide Ammar
155
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 07:33:00 -
[84] - Quote
There are 2 issues hisec miners are facing right now, bear with me a moment while I explain and put yourself into hisec miners shoes here :
1- Ice mining pays off much more in terms of isk/hr if you compared it to ore mining. You have to park your orca and dozen of skiff s there and relog every 4 hrs and you profit more than mining 24/7 in ore belt. Since the changes they made to ice belts the prices of ice and fuel are keep rising. Tell me why I should leave ice mining and go back to ores to sell it for pennies just because null sec wants that ?
2- Logistics, there are many lone wolves miners out there, they mine and sell their ores in the same system they mined in, they don't have army of freighters nor POSes to compress this ore and ship it to Jita. They consider selling raw ore or refined minerals ( even at 50% stations with perfect skills) and not troubling themselves in logistics is their simplest way to make isk because he think they are making isk out from thin air and refining it 60% outpost or at 50% station are still consider same to them.
We repeatedly requested CCP to open POS services to public, let us rent our compression arrays and assembly arrays to the public. I think if they presented a hangar or array that can be anchor outside POS shields with UI simple enough to make non alliance players dump their materials and fees so they can use public services is good idea rather than slapping compression service to every hisec station out there.
- creates content and conflicts between corps to acquire markets in their regions. - pays fuel cost. - logistics become a less of hassle and creates homogeneity between regions regarding flow of low end compressed ore/ice to main markets hubs. Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing. |
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 07:57:00 -
[85] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Firvain wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:This is NO DIFFERENT You, sir, are wrong. Sourcing low end minerals has always been a problem for nullsec. Null belts simply do not contain meaningful amounts of low end minerals, as demonstrated by the recent changes to high end ores to include more low end minerals. Despite these changes, there are still not enough low end minerals in null to meet the demands of nullsec. Compression via 425's was not a solution to the problem; it was merely addressing the symptoms. The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it. As Querns mentioned above, miners have been mining and refining their ores for 11 years without change. Now that this change has hit, miners are still mining and refining their ore. High sec miners have spent huge amounts of time to train refining/reprocessing skills for maximum yield, and now you simply expect them to sell their ores raw? What is that saying for the actual skillpoints invested in refining and reprocessing skills in high sec? In addition- the changes in Crius were intended to spread production away from a centralized hub. Nullsec stations have bonuses to production and to refining in an effort to encourage localized markets in null. How does it make sense then to require nullsec to still reach out to Jita for the most basic and common of t1 materials? The problem is beyond compression. It's the fact that we're forced to go to high sec to source the most common building blocks in the game- even with attempting to supply ourselves via local mining. There is no reason that hundreds of miners in Deklein should strip entire systems of ore and still not have enough iso/mex to build one supercarrier, much less a titan. Our mineral demands for sub caps are equal or greater than the mineral demand for supers, as we (everyone) loses significantly more minerals via sub caps than we do from capital deaths. You took me out of context the no different was both for 425's vs ore compression BOTH are sourcing minerals from high sec If people have been doing something for 11 years and now you need them to do something different, bitching on forums to get CCP to change it back isn't the answer. Education is key my friend - that also is NOT CCP's job If you want to get to a different discussion on how viable mining is in nullsec ---> forum is that way Last year at EvE Vegas when anomoly changes were coming and Mexallon was getting the big nerf bat, we complained and everyone toed the same line "We will monitor" In lieu of them changing, you must overcome and adapt, obviously, you have been unable, I have been able with little or no fuss whatsoever Don't start changing the argument midstream There is a big diffrence between 425 compression and ore compression. 1 account could supply you with around 4 billion trit a week with only 1 hour play time max. You would simply buy in jita, ship it wiht red frog/push x and then use 3 charecters to build railguns. So basicly anyone could do it.Now for compression you need 10 freighters to reduce the tiem it takes to haul ores, you cant outsource that part coz couriers dont go to POS. And even with 10 freighters you spend alot more then 1 hour hauling all that **** So, basically you are mad cause it isn't "EZ MODE" anymore? I am not going to spill the beans on my operation, but suffice it to say If you are doing it this way, no wonder you are pissed YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG
I dont mind it beeing harder. But hauling wiht freighters day in day out is not compelling gameplay. Especially when its from station to pos where no one can touch my freighter anyway. But i was looking at 500 trips a week to the pos. That is 70 trips a day, at 5 minuts per trip that is nearly 6 hours a day warping a freighter back and forth.
Please explain how that is compelling gameplay? |
Etsalo Isnev
Tiana Enterprises
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 07:59:00 -
[86] - Quote
Querns wrote:CCP Greyscale asked that all compression chat be shunted into an adjunct thread, so here we go. However, the process of generating compressed ore is proving to be somewhat cumbersome, and, in my opinion, insufficient motivation is given by the game itself to point towards compression as a viable alternative to reprocessing ore.
At the risk of being just the lauging stock of all you mega-experienced people, I'll vent my ideas on the current ore compression...
From the experience I have in New Eden up till now, I learnt: "If something is cumbersome to do, it's actualy a business opportunity"
If null-sec industrialists have trouble finding compressed ore, they need to dig a bit deeper. Search hi-sec indy corps, help them in setting up an ore compression system, provide reliable compressed ore buying services. As I see it, hi-sec indy corps can earn good money compressing the ore they mine, sell it to market or dedicated null buyer and buy minerals for their manufacturing needs. Haven't done the math yet, but thinking that it's a profitable way to go...
If it's difficult to do, there's money to be made, that's my opinion...
And all the suggestions of providing a station compression service, modifying the orca to compress, in my view are just "an easy fix for a market niche". I'd say, don't do it. One needs to adapt to changing, and see it as an opportunity, not an annoyance... |
Valedictio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 09:12:00 -
[87] - Quote
Oh Dear, you mean to say that the miners that have been abused and targeted as subhuman pubbie scum are not doing what you want them to ?
HTFU ?
Adapt or Die ?
There is absoloutely nothing wrong with mining and reprocessing,
I also run a POS in empire which has a Compression Array, it's offline and barely used and I shall explain why.
Before in Happy Bunny Carebearland the industrious Miner would doze away while filling up with rocks of various sorts, then some nasty people came along and invented a party called Hulkageddon and the joyous process of ganking miners, CODE. ?
Miners aren't safe, Freighters aren't safe, routes to Trade Hubs are normally always camped.
When I do mine it is normally for what I or my Corps Want or Need, not to supply the whiney needs of Nullbears.
I consistantly see a lot of Omber Grav sites, and guess what ? I never bother with them as I DO NOT need the Isogen from them, I have more than an ample supply.
as for the whine about moving stuff, may I direct you towards 'MMO' ?
Improvise, Adapt and Overcome, otherwise GTFO and keep your stuff, I don't want it and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.
Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON' |
H3llHound
Koshaku Tactical Narcotics Team
35
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 10:22:00 -
[88] - Quote
I believe that ore compression with an orca will really help the lack of compressed ore. To balance it out the compression would work like the old rorqual.
An active highslot module similar to the bastion one. Makes it immobile but gives a boost to tank/resists/drone damage maybe. It has a 2min cycle and at the beginning of each cycle it compresses a certain volume of ore. Enough to keep up with 5 hulks. Not enough for a huge mining op but enough for smaller groups and it significantly reduces hauling.
A bastioned Orca can protect miners from null rats or the random roaming neutral. |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2620
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 11:12:00 -
[89] - Quote
H3llHound wrote:I believe that ore compression with an orca will really help the lack of compressed ore. To balance it out the compression would work like the old rorqual.
An active highslot module similar to the bastion one. Makes it immobile but gives a boost to tank/resists/drone damage maybe. It has a 2min cycle and at the beginning of each cycle it compresses a certain volume of ore. Enough to keep up with 5 hulks. Not enough for a huge mining op but enough for smaller groups and it significantly reduces hauling.
A bastioned Orca can protect miners from null rats or the random roaming neutral.
Really, there's nothing wrong with compression as it is.
The current problem is all the NPC-corp miners who still do the "mine -> refine -> sell to market" shtick, and refuse to change their gameplay (even if "just sell the damn ore" is actually more profitable).
Also, they're probably telling all the rookies that their way is the way to go.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Valedictio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 11:37:00 -
[90] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:H3llHound wrote:I believe that ore compression with an orca will really help the lack of compressed ore. To balance it out the compression would work like the old rorqual.
An active highslot module similar to the bastion one. Makes it immobile but gives a boost to tank/resists/drone damage maybe. It has a 2min cycle and at the beginning of each cycle it compresses a certain volume of ore. Enough to keep up with 5 hulks. Not enough for a huge mining op but enough for smaller groups and it significantly reduces hauling.
A bastioned Orca can protect miners from null rats or the random roaming neutral. Really, there's nothing wrong with compression as it is. The current problem is all the NPC-corp miners who still do the "mine -> refine -> sell to market" shtick, and refuse to change their gameplay (even if "just sell the damn ore" is actually more profitable). Also, they're probably telling all the rookies that their way is the way to go.
The current problem is a massive change to Industry and everyone is still catching up/learning,
It may surprise you to learn that most Miners will mine what makes them the most Isk/Hr.
If Mining/refineing is making them more Isk/Hr than either selling Ore or Compressing to stock a market then what would you expect them to do, ask yourself what would you do ?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with compression Mechanics as they stand, Whineing and complaining that XYZ Compressed ore isn't available simply means that nobody considers it worthwhile at the moment.
give it some time and supply may even catch up with demand.
and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.
Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON' |
|
H3llHound
Koshaku Tactical Narcotics Team
35
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 11:42:00 -
[91] - Quote
But it give those miners who give a damn about compression a lower bar of entry to provide compressed ore. That is why I wrote the orca would only support a handful miners with compression. If some refuse to change their habits so be it and to possibly convince them of changing requires that CCP raises the awareness about compression. And dont forget: Less hauling
Or ninja-mining ops with this orca and some prospects |
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
80
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 12:25:00 -
[92] - Quote
It's nothing to do with not being able to afford the Pos and array, it's more about recouping the investment in skill time and 100m+ isk investment.
Atm I refine both to sell the excess and use some myself to manufacture crystals, drones and other modules.
Suppose I compressed everything I mined and made (maybe) an extra 1m isk per Mack load, that's over 100 full loads minimum to get back my investment. To compress everything I mine would also bring my industry to a halt as well resulting in lost income that I would also have to take into account.
No I don't mine 24/7. I work for a living and do other stuff in game as well, hell, trying to get back my investment would be as bad as mining to plex...I don't do that either. |
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 12:36:00 -
[93] - Quote
Valedictio wrote:Velicitia wrote:H3llHound wrote:I believe that ore compression with an orca will really help the lack of compressed ore. To balance it out the compression would work like the old rorqual.
An active highslot module similar to the bastion one. Makes it immobile but gives a boost to tank/resists/drone damage maybe. It has a 2min cycle and at the beginning of each cycle it compresses a certain volume of ore. Enough to keep up with 5 hulks. Not enough for a huge mining op but enough for smaller groups and it significantly reduces hauling.
A bastioned Orca can protect miners from null rats or the random roaming neutral. Really, there's nothing wrong with compression as it is. The current problem is all the NPC-corp miners who still do the "mine -> refine -> sell to market" shtick, and refuse to change their gameplay (even if "just sell the damn ore" is actually more profitable). Also, they're probably telling all the rookies that their way is the way to go. The current problem is a massive change to Industry and everyone is still catching up/learning, It may surprise you to learn that most Miners will mine what makes them the most Isk/Hr. If Mining/refineing is making them more Isk/Hr than either selling Ore or Compressing to stock a market then what would you expect them to do, ask yourself what would you do ? There is absolutely nothing wrong with compression Mechanics as they stand, Whineing and complaining that XYZ Compressed ore isn't available simply means that nobody considers it worthwhile at the moment. give it some time and supply may even catch up with demand.
But thyey dont.
Trit sells for 5.2, the trit in veldspar is worth 5.6 pye sells for 10.9, the pyerite in scordite is worth 11.8 mexallon sells for 57, the mexallon in plag worth for 61, in kernite it is worth 72 omber sells for 126, in omber its worth 110(okay omber is too low value there we go), in kernite its worth 134 nocxium is worth 685, in pyroxes its worth 768.
And that is what max refine bonus etc, someone who refines these compressed ores in a lowsec station is paying a hell of a lot more for them per unit.
So yeah compressing is worth a hell of a lot more then refining. But miners dont seem to get that
|
Prophet Tier
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 13:00:00 -
[94] - Quote
Querns wrote:1) Add a station compression service. This removes the barrier of entry that a POS requires, and makes compression ubiquitous for all. This does not obviate the use of the POS module -- a savvy miner might set up a POS in a system without a station, and use the POS compression module to help keep their industry well lubricated.
No, this is a bad idea. This would completely remove a player activity (running a pos and compressing). The functionality exists, adjust your prices and the demand will be filled by "pubbies."
Querns wrote:3) Consolidate ore variants to a single type of compressed ore. For example, compressing Concentrated Veldspar and Dense Veldspar would output Compressed Veldspar. Tweaking the input amounts to correspond to the higher amount of minerals contained in the ore variants would make this work.
This sounds like a good idea.
Querns wrote:If any other folks have any ideas as to how to incentivize ore compression, please feel free to post.
They just changed the Medium Intensive Refinery into a Compression Array and made it available in high sec. This literally solves the problem completely. I just did my due diligence and a trial run netting 7% (buying from sell and selling to buy; worst case scenario). |
Prophet Tier
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 13:03:00 -
[95] - Quote
Firvain wrote:But thyey dont.
Trit sells for 5.2, the trit in veldspar is worth 5.6 pye sells for 10.9, the pyerite in scordite is worth 11.8 mexallon sells for 57, the mexallon in plag worth for 61, in kernite it is worth 72 omber sells for 126, in omber its worth 110(okay omber is too low value there we go), in kernite its worth 134 nocxium is worth 685, in pyroxes its worth 768.
And that is what max refine bonus etc, someone who refines these compressed ores in a lowsec station is paying a hell of a lot more for them per unit.
So yeah compressing is worth a hell of a lot more then refining. But miners dont seem to get that
They don't need to understand the intricacies of null sec industry. Adjust your compressed buy prices to reflect YOUR advantage and the market will fill the void by increasing supply. Believe it or not, high sec pubbies don't have access to Minmatar outposts and most of their competition don't either. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
113
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 13:09:00 -
[96] - Quote
Etsalo Isnev wrote:Querns wrote:CCP Greyscale asked that all compression chat be shunted into an adjunct thread, so here we go. However, the process of generating compressed ore is proving to be somewhat cumbersome, and, in my opinion, insufficient motivation is given by the game itself to point towards compression as a viable alternative to reprocessing ore. At the risk of being just the lauging stock of all you mega-experienced people, I'll vent my ideas on the current ore compression... From the experience I have in New Eden up till now, I learnt: "If something is cumbersome to do, it's actualy a business opportunity" If null-sec industrialists have trouble finding compressed ore, they need to dig a bit deeper. Search hi-sec indy corps, help them in setting up an ore compression system, provide reliable compressed ore buying services. As I see it, hi-sec indy corps can earn good money compressing the ore they mine, sell it to market or dedicated null buyer and buy minerals for their manufacturing needs. Haven't done the math yet, but thinking that it's a profitable way to go... If it's difficult to do, there's money to be made, that's my opinion... And all the suggestions of providing a station compression service, modifying the orca to compress, in my view are just "an easy fix for a market niche". I'd say, don't do it. One needs to adapt to changing, and see it as an opportunity, not an annoyance...
That is enough from you mister
You are making sense
No one will listen to you |
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 16:06:00 -
[97] - Quote
Prophet Tier wrote:Firvain wrote:But thyey dont.
Trit sells for 5.2, the trit in veldspar is worth 5.6 pye sells for 10.9, the pyerite in scordite is worth 11.8 mexallon sells for 57, the mexallon in plag worth for 61, in kernite it is worth 72 omber sells for 126, in omber its worth 110(okay omber is too low value there we go), in kernite its worth 134 nocxium is worth 685, in pyroxes its worth 768.
And that is what max refine bonus etc, someone who refines these compressed ores in a lowsec station is paying a hell of a lot more for them per unit.
So yeah compressing is worth a hell of a lot more then refining. But miners dont seem to get that They don't need to understand the intricacies of null sec industry. Adjust your compressed buy prices to reflect YOUR advantage and the market will fill the void by increasing supply. Believe it or not, high sec pubbies don't have access to Minmatar outposts and most of their competition don't either.
Those prices are with OUR advantage, remove the 86% refine thing and those prices go even higher... |
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
18
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 16:14:00 -
[98] - Quote
Pookoko wrote:I don't understand why some 'small corp' thinks having a POS is out of their scope. My first POS in New Eden was anchored by our two-men corp (with no alts). And back then we had to grind faction standings all the way to have a high-sec POS, which took a lot of effort. Also it was way before the fuel blocks were introduced and filling up POS fuel was real PITA.
Now POS can be anchored anywhere in high-sec with no standing requirement. Now there is convenience of fuel block. Now there are advantages of manufacturing at high-sec POS. Now you can even compress ores to make even more profit - and heck, compression is instant and doesn't require any BPC.
It is already SO EASY now to have a high-sec POS and compress ores. Just anchor a freaking POS and be done with it.
I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically. Now, 6M ISK isn't that much for bigger corps, but for smaller corps that's a non-trivial amount of ISK to spend every day. At minimum, you have to bring in enough ISK to make the POS worthwhile -- so you need to make more than 6M ISK per day in your efforts.
But yes, running a POS now is way, way easier to do now. The standings requirements alone were a huge pain to grind up before, which is why many industrialists didn't bother. But now, if you can afford the 6M or so ISK cost each day, they're a no-brainer.
However, there is a caveat: I think (and hope) that POS's are not long for the world. If the mobile modules are the wave of the future, I hope CCP will create a Mobile Ore Compression module so you can compress your ore right in the belt. I'm hesitant to build up a large logistics chain around POS's for just this reason. |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
259
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 16:22:00 -
[99] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote: I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically. Now, 6M ISK isn't that much for bigger corps, but for smaller corps that's a non-trivial amount of ISK to spend every day. At minimum, you have to bring in enough ISK to make the POS worthwhile -- so you need to make more than 6M ISK per day in your efforts.
But yes, running a POS now is way, way easier to do now. The standings requirements alone were a huge pain to grind up before, which is why many industrialists didn't bother. But now, if you can afford the 6M or so ISK cost each day, they're a no-brainer.
However, there is a caveat: I think (and hope) that POS's are not long for the world. If the mobile modules are the wave of the future, I hope CCP will create a Mobile Ore Compression module so you can compress your ore right in the belt. I'm hesitant to build up a large logistics chain around POS's for just this reason.
In which cases is it not possible for small corps to online a POS when they need it. I can't think of any? Baddest poster ever |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
729
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 16:32:00 -
[100] - Quote
Prophet Tier wrote: No, this is a bad idea. This would completely remove a player activity (running a pos and compressing). The functionality exists, adjust your prices and the demand will be filled by "pubbies."
this is no more meaningful gameplay than creating standings corps was
it's a mindless move thing from point a to point b, in a way that creates no interesting gameplay for anyone. |
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Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
18
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 16:37:00 -
[101] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:Tolkaz Khamsi wrote: I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically. Now, 6M ISK isn't that much for bigger corps, but for smaller corps that's a non-trivial amount of ISK to spend every day. At minimum, you have to bring in enough ISK to make the POS worthwhile -- so you need to make more than 6M ISK per day in your efforts.
But yes, running a POS now is way, way easier to do now. The standings requirements alone were a huge pain to grind up before, which is why many industrialists didn't bother. But now, if you can afford the 6M or so ISK cost each day, they're a no-brainer.
However, there is a caveat: I think (and hope) that POS's are not long for the world. If the mobile modules are the wave of the future, I hope CCP will create a Mobile Ore Compression module so you can compress your ore right in the belt. I'm hesitant to build up a large logistics chain around POS's for just this reason.
In which cases is it not possible for small corps to online a POS when they need it. I can't think of any?
If you get wardecced and your POS is offline, it's easy to get blowed up -- and if you're under wardec, your offline POS would be a dandy spot to set up an ambush when you come by to online it.
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3786
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 16:41:00 -
[102] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote: If you get wardecced and your POS is offline, it's easy to get blowed up -- and if you're under wardec, your offline POS would be a dandy spot to set up an ambush when you come by to online it.
An ambush, during the 24 hour waiting period to start a war. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Prophet Tier
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 17:04:00 -
[103] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Prophet Tier wrote: No, this is a bad idea. This would completely remove a player activity (running a pos and compressing). The functionality exists, adjust your prices and the demand will be filled by "pubbies."
this is no more meaningful gameplay than creating standings corps was it's a mindless move thing from point a to point b, in a way that creates no interesting gameplay for anyone.
Yet alliances exist to facilitate this exact thing. See Red Frog and Push X. If it's boring to you, then don't do it. The interesting gameplay is that it creates an environment for freighter ganking which you, as a goon, should appreciate.
Dry your eyes, little goon, and HTFU. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 17:27:00 -
[104] - Quote
Prophet Tier wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Prophet Tier wrote: No, this is a bad idea. This would completely remove a player activity (running a pos and compressing). The functionality exists, adjust your prices and the demand will be filled by "pubbies."
this is no more meaningful gameplay than creating standings corps was it's a mindless move thing from point a to point b, in a way that creates no interesting gameplay for anyone. Yet alliances exist to facilitate this exact thing. See Red Frog and Push X. If it's boring to you, then don't do it. The interesting gameplay is that it creates an environment for freighter ganking which you, as a goon, should appreciate. Dry your eyes, little goon, and HTFU. Ah, yes, the vaunted courier contract to a POS. Please, elucidate on how you hire Red Frog and PushX to deliver materiel to your POS. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
729
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 17:44:00 -
[105] - Quote
Prophet Tier wrote: Yet alliances exist to facilitate this exact thing. See Red Frog and Push X. If it's boring to you, then don't do it. The interesting gameplay is that it creates an environment for freighter ganking which you, as a goon, should appreciate.
Dry your eyes, little goon, and HTFU.
as i have explained numerous times to people, such as yourself, who have not thought this through: it does not
the freighter goes from the station to the pos shield and back
it is never in a gankable spot. it is completely solo activity. hauling between systems is an activity that adds to the game. this does not
the caliber of thought deployed against me is the clearest sign that i am correct |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
46
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 17:45:00 -
[106] - Quote
There is an awful lot of grr-goon in this thread.
I am repeating my earlier, slightly off-topic, argument- I think the fundamental issue breaks down to nullsec being 100% reliant on high sec for the minerals they need. Compression itself works, and if high sec miners don't like math, they're going to refine their ores for a loss.
To clarify, we aren't just "waiting around" for high sec miners to mine low end ore for us. We have miners actively stripping belts in many systems across our space, yet we are still direly short on minerals we need for (all types of) production. At the same time, we are flooding the local market with a surplus of high end minerals, because that's the bulk of what nullsec ore sites provide to us.
The suggested changes to compression are to encourage people to compress their ore and sell it in this fashion. As noted several times in this thread, compressed ore is already selling for much more than the raw minerals (and it's cheaper to move to market!). If I were a "grr goon" type, I would be more on board with compression changes rather than the much needed fix of revisiting nullsec ore sites. If we're buying ore from high sec, that means that our isk is going directly into your pockets. The result of which are minerals that we use in wars against other empires in null. How is that a bad thing?
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Dom Zimbio
TRANSCENDENT.
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 17:51:00 -
[107] - Quote
I love it. Empire corps can go suck it, go into null sec and mine.
I don't own a Rorqual so having a compression array saves me from hauling from my system to next door to refine it. Before I had to drop freight containers inside my site and mine until its full and move to the next container. Then when I'm finished I usually had 12 cans or so sitting in site. So I had to do 3 freighter trips to next door and refine it to achieve 100% refining. With cruis, I can easily fit it all my hard days work in my corp hangar because corp hangars only have max volume of 3mil. 3mil m3 ore compressed to 12K compressed ore. Also with my intensive array sitting next to my compression array, I just drag and drop and now I have refined minerals. Even better if you place everything you need next to it like Capital Array, component array, saving you even more time. Intensive Array with perfect skills + implants yield you the same as a tier 2 upgrade minmatar station so you don't even need stations anymore, everything can be done in a pos.
Yields is also 5% more with expansion that's if you have perfect skills + implant. Even if you had near-perfect skills with no implant you would yield the same as before. With a Tier 3 station with 60% refine you yield 15% more than previous expansion.
Compression is so overpowered right now that I have calculated and tested to fit a titans compressed ore amount in an JF and supers in an orca. Took me weeks to find the correct amount of compressed ore to yield the exact m3 for supers & titans in compressed ore.
Now miners in null sec no longer have to sell in jita, alliances now are buying the ore off their corps and producing capitals at an incredible rate. So now alliances are dependent on their miners even more. No longer can you go to jita and buy 1mil units of some compressed module and reprocessed near your super pos and build a super. Now you have to either mine it yourself or buy the compressed ore from the locals.
Compressed ore market in empire. Really don't give a s*** about them, but for those that do, the inventory sucks because not many people utilize the compression array in empire and null sec alliances are no longer hauling them to jita. If more empire corps would have them then the amount/prices would balance out and their would be a steady flux of inventory with decent prices. Also the reason mineral prices have dropped is because null sec alliances no longer want their refined material. Its easier to haul 5 bil worth of compressed ore in your transport ship than making several freighter trips of reprocessed minerals. A solution to high sec miners is to stop reprocessing your ore, null sec alliances no longer want it. Either sell them in your system or find a corp that has one in their pos. Stop being a lone wolf miner, if you can't afford it join a corp. I bet 50% of compressed ore in jita is actually being sold from those null sec corps that don't build with their ore.
Null sec mining has gone up 300%, except goons space (now we know who's been buying compressed modules)
My final statement is Keep up or Shut up. Reminds me today of today's society, efficiency wins. Also should mention to newbies, never travel with a full freighter worth of compressed ore, you'll wind up the one of the highest in lost amount in a single ship. Give you one of my secrets, You can fit a carrier worth of compressed ore in your Transport Ship, only requires 52k m3. However I don't buy in jita anymore.
Summary: Compression so overpowered :) - supers in orca's, titans in JF 5% more yield with perfect skills + implant with tier 2 station Mine in Null sec Stop reprocessing your ore in Empire Join a Corp if you can't afford it |
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
18
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 18:24:00 -
[108] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote: You can currently buy plenty of compressed veldspar at a 19% markup in Jita. Seems fair to me considered the hauling around issue.
go try to buy a reasonable amount of compressed mexallon and isogen at any price whatsoever
I think you mean compressed kernite or omber, don't you?
Anyway, Omber is stupid and nobody mines it, so let's forget that for now.
Kernite is good -- having a good portion of Mex and Iso -- but if you're mining for profit Veldspar is better because it's easier to mine and is more valuable in an ISK/hr sense. Veld is the best ore to mine for ISK, as I've said before. It may be that the compressed kernite supply hasn't yet bulked up because not many highsec miners go after it in quantity. |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
132
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 18:29:00 -
[109] - Quote
Querns wrote:Prophet Tier wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Prophet Tier wrote: No, this is a bad idea. This would completely remove a player activity (running a pos and compressing). The functionality exists, adjust your prices and the demand will be filled by "pubbies."
this is no more meaningful gameplay than creating standings corps was it's a mindless move thing from point a to point b, in a way that creates no interesting gameplay for anyone. Yet alliances exist to facilitate this exact thing. See Red Frog and Push X. If it's boring to you, then don't do it. The interesting gameplay is that it creates an environment for freighter ganking which you, as a goon, should appreciate. Dry your eyes, little goon, and HTFU. Ah, yes, the vaunted courier contract to a POS. Please, elucidate on how you hire Red Frog and PushX to deliver materiel to your POS.
No, you missed the point.
Retar Aveymone wrote:it's a mindless move thing from point a to point b, in a way that creates no interesting gameplay for anyone.
Red Frog and Push X exist. Their existence proves that there are a significant number of players in high sec who want to make a little bit of mindless isk while flying freighters around. These are the perfect people to become ore middlemen. We need to get some of them to buy small towers and compression arrays, buy ore from miners, and haul the compressed ores to market hubs-when they would otherwise be flying empty. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1498
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 20:18:00 -
[110] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:There is an awful lot of grr-goon in this thread.
I am repeating my earlier, slightly off-topic, argument- I think the fundamental issue breaks down to nullsec being 100% reliant on high sec for the minerals they need. Compression itself works, and if high sec miners don't like math, they're going to refine their ores for a loss.
Because you are doing exactly what you always accuse High Sec of doing (When there is normally far less crying from high sec on the matter). You have been caught being hypocrites and are now getting laughed at for it. It's not Grrr Goons, it's point and laugh at the fail goons day.
High Sec miners will adjust to Maths, patience little goonie, patience. And things will change. The Graphs already show that supply is starting to climb and demand starting to fall a little on Compressed ore. There is no reason to believe this won't continue.
Though also consider that maybe some of the High Sec miners are deliberately not selling you compressed ore because you have spent years belittling them and they don't want to help the Null Empires.
As for Null being utterly reliant on High (Well, if not on Ore, where else should Null be reliant on high since CCP themselves have said they never want any area of space to be 100% self sufficient), BS. You have 3* the systems High does (or is it 4*). All of those systems have belts that are at least equal to High Sec, if not more per day. High Sec does not have infinite respawning belts either. So if Null mined out all it's Asteroid Belts the same way high does, you would have a surplus of low ends.
The simple fact is you haven't adjusted to the fact belts are just as safe as your ore anoms these days, you still have an aversion to belt mining dating back to when grav sites were sigs so belts were more dangerous to mine. Talk about a failure to adapt. |
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Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
46
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 20:39:00 -
[111] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:All of those systems have belts that are at least equal to High Sec, if not more per day. High Sec does not have infinite respawning belts either. So if Null mined out all it's Asteroid Belts the same way high does, you would have a surplus of low ends.
I would suggest that you actually go to nullsec and mine from a null belt before basing your argument on this statement. Belts in null are not at all like belts in highsec, and the low end roids pop in as little as one cycle. Additionally, these are still "top heavy", so we'd still have a surplus of high ends. So, no, you are incorrect.
Having appropriate sources of t1 minerals does not mean that nullsec would be 100% self-sufficient (or even close to it). It is asinine to argue that nullsec should be reliant on high sec for mexallon and isogen because you're afraid we'll be 100% self sufficient. If that is the case, refer to my earlier statement about our isk going into your pockets with compressed ores.
The supply of "compressed minerals" has in fact significantly changed since pre-crius. First off, items now only drop 50% of their mineral content- a flat nerf to mineral supply. More importantly, though, is that once ores are converted into minerals, they are permanently removed from the compressed market, and there is no way to convert them back to a compressed format without a SIGNIFICANT loss.
The people in this thread have effectively only said "HTFU" with response to our suggestions. We have had individual producers from other alliances come in and say that they're having an "easy time" supplying their personal production (using 12+ freighters, titans, etc). We are not trying to supply one producer with minerals; we are trying to build an entire market in our null space. CCP's recent expansions are pushing the emergence of markets outside of Jita and into low and null sec. This is simply not possible on any meaningful scale with the current state of compression and lack of basic resources in our local environment.
Forcing products to go through Jita is hurting high sec the most- it's amusing that the vast majority of you are missing that. When most production flows through one location, you're forced to compete with all other producers and sell at the lowest possible prices. As markets spread out of one central location, localized markets will further develop and have their own regional supply and demand with higher average prices than if funneled through Jita. But, hey, Grr Goons we just want to break everything, right? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1498
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 20:49:00 -
[112] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
I would suggest that you actually go to nullsec and mine from a null belt before basing your argument on this statement. Belts in null are not at all like belts in highsec, and the low end roids pop in as little as one cycle. Additionally, these are still "top heavy", so we'd still have a surplus of high ends. So, no, you are incorrect.
Prove it. Hard numbers across hundreds of belts. Both Null & High. Till then, your talking hot air with fumes. |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
133
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 20:50:00 -
[113] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Sounds good, but that's not quite how it works.
First you expect miners to take roughly a 20-30% loss to mine Veldspar instead of the top 4 ores. Then you want them to go through the POS hassle. For that to happen Comp Veldspar prices would have to be more profitable then mining Pyrox as an example.
...
Also did a quick check on Compressed Pyrox and it would be a 20% loss selling Pyrox compressed instead of refining. Thats assuming I want to sell the Trit at these extremely low prices.
I am going to put the TL:DR at the top, and the math below.
I would be interested to see how you can lose isk by compressing pyroxeres. My math shows that for every high sec ore except omber, pushing the refine button loses you isk compared to the raw ore. On the other hand, compressing it increases its value by 10-20%.
First off, I only expect miners to do what is in their own best interest. Mine the most valuable ore you can. Once you have that ore, figure out what is the best thing to do with it.
I totally understand that many miners do not want to hassle with a POS. If you wonGÇÖt run a POS and pushing GÇŁRefineGÇĄ loses you isk, then what you should do is sell the raw ore exactly where it is. Then get back into the belt and make more. People who own POSes and donGÇÖt mind flying freighters would love to buy your ore, compress it, and make some brainless isk. Perhaps you can even make friends with these people and negotiate better prices for your ore in exchange for a steady supply?
----Math Below----
These prices pulled from Eve Central a few minutes ago. These are all Jita top buy prices. Obviously, prices will vary with time and the market you are actually in. Also, the prices for Kernite and Omber may be skewed somewhat. Those ores do not normally appear in Caldari space and someone who hauled them to Jita will expect to be paid for that work.
Minerals: Tritanium: 5.25 Pyerite: 10.85 Mexallon: 57.70 Isogen: 124.00 Nocxium: 675.46
Raw Ores: Veldspar: 18.19 (that is, 181.90 isk/m3) Scordite: 31.62 (210.80 isk/m3) Pyroxeres: 64.25 (214.17 isk/m3) Plagioclase: 74.03 (211.51 isk/m3) Omber: 80.04 (133.40 isk/m3) Kernite: 260.48 (217.07 isk/m3)
Compressed Ores: Compressed Veldspar: 2200.00 Compressed Scordite: 3500.00 Compressed Pyroxeres: 7599.99 Compressed Plagioclase: 9000.00 Compressed Omber: 9002.41 Compressed Kernite: 29578.35
Assuming perfect skills, implant, and 50% NPC station:
100 units of raw Veldspar could be sold for 1819.00 isk. Refining it turns it into 300.46 tritanium. (I kept the fraction because in reality you are going to refine your whole stack at once and not individual batches.) The value of the tritanium is 1577.42 isk. (13.3% loss) Compressing it increases the value to 2200 (20.9% profit)
100 Scordite = 3162.00 isk. Refined =250.504 trit, 125.252 pyer = 2674.13 isk (15.4% loss) Compressed = 3500.00 isk (10.6% profit)
100 Pyroxeres = 6425.00 isk. Refined = 254.124 trit, 18.1 pyer, 36.2 mex, 3.62 nocx = 6064.44 isk (5.6% loss) Compressed = 7599.99 isk (18.3% profit)
100 Plagioclase = 7403.00 isk. Refined = 77.468 trit, 154.212 pyer, 77.468 mex = 6549.81 isk (11.5% loss) Compressed = 9000.00 isk (21.6% profit)
100 Omber = 8004.00 isk. Refined = 61.54 trit, 24.616 pyer, 61.54 iso = 8221.13 isk (2.7% profit) Compressed = 9002.41 isk (12.5% profit)
100 Kernite = 26048.00 isk. Refined = 97.016 trit, 193.308 mex, 97.016 iso = 23693.19 isk (9.0% loss) Compressed = 29578.35 isk (13.6% profit)
So, refining high sec ore loses value in every case except omber. However, compressing it always increases the value.
Obviously, I did not include the cost of running the POS above. The tower costs ~65M isk. The compression array costs ~35M isk. That is less than 1/6th the cost of an orca for those worried about the barrier to entry. Running it for an hour costs ~200k isk. You can make a great deal of compressed ore in one hour. In the event that someone war decs you, you have 24 hours to take down your tower before the shooting starts. Failing that, you can abandon it and only be out 100M isk.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 21:09:00 -
[114] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:
I would suggest that you actually go to nullsec and mine from a null belt before basing your argument on this statement. Belts in null are not at all like belts in highsec, and the low end roids pop in as little as one cycle. Additionally, these are still "top heavy", so we'd still have a surplus of high ends. So, no, you are incorrect.
Prove it. Hard numbers across hundreds of belts. Both Null & High. Till then, your talking hot air with fumes. The Bloodtears, probably the most experienced nullsec miners that I know, repeatedly assert that nullsec asteroid belts have minuscule amounts of ore. Check the Bloodtear Industry Report if you don't believe me. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1498
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 21:12:00 -
[115] - Quote
Querns wrote: The Bloodtears, probably the most experienced nullsec miners that I know, repeatedly assert that nullsec asteroid belts have minuscule amounts of ore. Check the Bloodtear Industry Report if you don't believe me.
Link, and Link to their high sec report also? Since High sec belts don't have that much ore either. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 21:24:00 -
[116] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: The Bloodtears, probably the most experienced nullsec miners that I know, repeatedly assert that nullsec asteroid belts have minuscule amounts of ore. Check the Bloodtear Industry Report if you don't believe me.
Link, and Link to their high sec report also? Since High sec belts don't have that much ore either. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1205/Bloodtear_Industy_Index_Report_v3.pdf This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
46
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 21:26:00 -
[117] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: The Bloodtears, probably the most experienced nullsec miners that I know, repeatedly assert that nullsec asteroid belts have minuscule amounts of ore. Check the Bloodtear Industry Report if you don't believe me.
Link, and Link to their high sec report also? Since High sec belts don't have that much ore either.
Here is a link to the most recent Bloodtear Industry Report, and here is a link to a High Sec Industry Report. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1499
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 21:52:00 -
[118] - Quote
So, you mean the report that contains NO information on the standard asteroid belts in every system... That report...
That only contains data on the infinitely respawning belts which are NOT what I was talking about. Well done. |
Bella Sprout
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 21:59:00 -
[119] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:So, you mean the report that contains NO information on the standard asteroid belts in every system... That report... That only contains data on the infinitely respawning belts which are NOT what I was talking about. Well done.
Quote: Up until this point you had to mine lots of small time asteroids that typically evaporated seconds into your cycle, leading to vast inefficiency, annoyance, and the need to move within range of new asteroids
Here is the only mention of regular belts. The entire point of mining in the belts is to never have to mine in belts again because they're awful |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1499
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:02:00 -
[120] - Quote
Bella Sprout wrote: Here is the only mention of regular belts. The entire point of mining in the belts is to never have to mine in belts again because they're awful
So no actual data on the real values of ore in each, nor how it relates to high sec ore belts, since those have lots of little roids also. Which is what I figured. You aren't even bothering to try to adapt, you are just crying for CCP to change things to benefit you even more. You are already pricing High sec out of the ore market. But that's not enough of a victory for you. |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:03:00 -
[121] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:So, you mean the report that contains NO information on the standard asteroid belts in every system... That report... That only contains data on the infinitely respawning belts which are NOT what I was talking about. Well done. I mean, I get that you are trying to assert that without spurious evidence, that which would take weeks, if not months to collect, we can't argue a point. Fortunately for us, however, we can rely on the words of credible experts to not have to repeat this unnecessary work. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1499
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:09:00 -
[122] - Quote
Querns wrote: I mean, I get that you are trying to assert that without spurious evidence, that which would take weeks, if not months to collect, we can't argue a point. Fortunately for us, however, we can rely on the words of credible experts to not have to repeat this unnecessary work.
Except those 'experts' are using extremely old data, and never did a comparison between Null Asteroid Belts & High Asteroid Belts, and did all their 'expert work' at a time when ABC ores were worth significantly more than low end ores. So didn't bother to do a proper analysis as they were talking about how to get industry index up to get at the profitable large & extremely large belts. Not about the relative amounts of ore between Null & High belts.
So I stand by what I said. Null has 3-4 times the available volume of low end ore that high sec does, without counting the infinite belts. Even if we assume the belts don't get any better for being in Null Sec. |
Bella Sprout
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:10:00 -
[123] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: So I stand by what I said. Null has 3-4 times the available volume of low end ore that high sec does, without counting the infinite belts. Even if we assume the belts don't get any better for being in Null Sec.
What are the compositions of these belts? Thanks in advance |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1499
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:16:00 -
[124] - Quote
Bella Sprout wrote: What are the compositions of these belts? Thanks in advance
Press the undock button, then the warp button, and you'll find out. Don't be a lazy ass when it's right in your back yard.
My Null experiences tell me they have basically the same composition as high sec belts though, and I personally found that they had more ore per rock in Null also. Though I never used a 20 man multibox swarm to get enough data on total amounts per belt & respawn rates in either Null or High sec.
But... it's irrelevant if there is more or less than high sec in a way anyway. If it's worth more, you mine it till it goes away. Roids don't pop faster than you can lock the next ones so small roids aren't really a loss in time assuming you are actually at your keyboard since you can scan away and time your strips, exactly like people do all the time. But that would require you to actually think, and not just follow an out of date guide.
The question about amount is only relevant to how much more ore null can make than highsec. |
Bella Sprout
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:19:00 -
[125] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bella Sprout wrote: What are the compositions of these belts? Thanks in advance
Press the undock button, then the warp button, and you'll find out. Don't be a lazy ass when it's right in your back yard. Sorry, you're making the claim, you provide the data. That's how we're working isn't it? All you have is anectodes |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1499
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:22:00 -
[126] - Quote
Bella Sprout wrote: Sorry, you're making the claim, you provide the data. That's how we're working isn't it? All you have is anectodes
Certainly, all I have is Anecdotes. However I did not make the initial claim. Nullbears made the initial claim that it was pointless mining the standard belts because they contain far less ore than highsec. Read back through the thread. Even if they did. It would still be worth mining whatever low ends are there anyway since they are worth more than the 'hidden' sites anyway.
So I'm awaiting the actual figures from said crying Nullbears to back it.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Asteroid_belts shows that down to 0.0 belt composition stays the same (in fact better since it includes low sec ores). Feel free to fill in actual information for Null Sec belts.
But the fact you are too lazy to press warp to a belt and actually look speaks volumes. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:25:00 -
[127] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: I mean, I get that you are trying to assert that without spurious evidence, that which would take weeks, if not months to collect, we can't argue a point. Fortunately for us, however, we can rely on the words of credible experts to not have to repeat this unnecessary work.
Except those 'experts' are using extremely old data, and never did a comparison between Null Asteroid Belts & High Asteroid Belts, and did all their 'expert work' at a time when ABC ores were worth significantly more than low end ores. So didn't bother to do a proper analysis as they were talking about how to get industry index up to get at the profitable large & extremely large belts. Not about the relative amounts of ore between Null & High belts. So I stand by what I said. Null has 3-4 times the available volume of low end ore that high sec does, without counting the infinite belts. Even if we assume the belts don't get any better for being in Null Sec.
Nullsec asteroid belts haven't been changed in at least four years, probably more. I can only speak to that which I've seen. Given that the Bloodtear guide is younger than that, I'm inclined to believe their assessment that nullsec asteroid belts, while containing a number of asteroids, contain very, very small quantities of ore inside those asteroids. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1500
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:29:00 -
[128] - Quote
Querns wrote: Nullsec asteroid belts haven't been changed in at least four years, probably more. I can only speak to that which I've seen. Given that the Bloodtear guide is younger than that, I'm inclined to believe their assessment that nullsec asteroid belts, while containing a number of asteroids, contain very, very small quantities of ore inside those asteroids.
Relative to the size of the asteroids in the hidden belts. Almost certainly. However that says nothing about the quantity of those asteroids relative to high sec belts. Which are known to also pop fairly fast. Hence why a relative comparison to very large hidden belt roids is useless for a Null vs High comparison.
You could grab a scanner, jump out to a belt and do a quick look see of course. It won't give reliable figures, but it will give a basic idea. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:40:00 -
[129] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: Nullsec asteroid belts haven't been changed in at least four years, probably more. I can only speak to that which I've seen. Given that the Bloodtear guide is younger than that, I'm inclined to believe their assessment that nullsec asteroid belts, while containing a number of asteroids, contain very, very small quantities of ore inside those asteroids.
Relative to the size of the asteroids in the hidden belts. Almost certainly. However that says nothing about the quantity of those asteroids relative to high sec belts. Which are known to also pop fairly fast. Hence why a relative comparison to very large hidden belt roids is useless for a Null vs High comparison. You could grab a scanner, jump out to a belt and do a quick look see of course. It won't give reliable figures, but it will give a basic idea. Nah. I trust the Bloodtears. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1500
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:42:00 -
[130] - Quote
Querns wrote: Nah. I trust the Bloodtears.
So rather than look to see if relative values have changed due to a massive meta shift, you will instead cry about how the system should change to help you out more.... Well, that is about what I expected to be honest. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:46:00 -
[131] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: Nah. I trust the Bloodtears.
So rather than look to see if relative values have changed due to a massive meta shift, you will instead cry about how the system should change to help you out more.... Well, that is about what I expected to be honest. Yep, sure -- that is accurate. I trust you'll be exiting the conversation now -- cheers! This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Calypso Kendrick
Azure and Gold
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:49:00 -
[132] - Quote
Querns wrote:
Nullsec asteroid belts haven't been changed in at least four years, probably more. I can only speak to that which I've seen. Given that the Bloodtear guide is younger than that, I'm inclined to believe their assessment that nullsec asteroid belts, while containing a number of asteroids, contain very, very small quantities of ore inside those asteroids.
I'm having a hard time figuring out if you are comparing Index based belts vs static high-sec belts, or if you are comparing Index based belts with Cosmic Anomalies. Either comparison is worthless though, so let's talk about static belts. Which is what everyone else is talking about but you.
The belts in null are pretty much the same belts in high, just with less traffic. The veld will cap out at the same numbers in either part of space. So will all of the other types of ore. You just have to find a system or two without mining traffic. Welcome to the high sec miners plight.
So Nevyn Auscent, and everyone else you are arguing with have a very good point. You should go mine some low grade ore in one of the many systems your alliance isn't using. Leave the hidden indexed based belts and go out a few systems and find some static belts if you need the ore that bad. Otherwise wait for the market in compressed ore to catch up to demand as I am sure it will given a few more weeks.
I hope that CCP doesn't change ore compression based on this argument, it would be the worst knee jerk reaction in history. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1500
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:51:00 -
[133] - Quote
Querns wrote: Yep, sure -- that is accurate. I trust you'll be exiting the conversation now -- cheers!
Nope, I'm going to do what you Goons are too lazy to do, and see if I can obtain a snap shot, despite not living in Null, so not having any advantages of an intel Network like you do for safety in doing so. Because if you are right about relative sizes, I'm quite prepared to admit it, I just really don't believe you are. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:59:00 -
[134] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: Yep, sure -- that is accurate. I trust you'll be exiting the conversation now -- cheers!
Nope, I'm going to do what you Goons are too lazy to do, and see if I can obtain a snap shot, despite not living in Null, so not having any advantages of an intel Network like you do for safety in doing so. Because if you are right about relative sizes, I'm quite prepared to admit it, I just really don't believe you are. Have fun.
Here, I'll even offer a hint: Interceptor-class frigates, when fit properly, cannot be caught, making it laughably easy to travel to any nullsec system you want. I see your snide comment about magic, all-knowing intel channels and raise you actual game mechanics. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1503
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:05:00 -
[135] - Quote
Querns wrote: Have fun.
Here, I'll even offer a hint: Interceptor-class frigates, when fit properly, cannot be caught, making it laughably easy to travel to any nullsec system you want. I see your snide comment about magic, all-knowing intel channels and raise you actual game mechanics.
Inti's however, do not make it easy to sit in a belt and scan because it involves sitting still on a grid for a bit as you have a range limit. Not simply dashing from gate to gate. Cloakies however work almost as well, and better for staying on the same grid for a while
Understanding the relevant game mechanics is even better than simply dropping a random mechanic and pretending you know everything. Snap to come once I've formatted. |
Prophet Tier
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:07:00 -
[136] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: Have fun.
Here, I'll even offer a hint: Interceptor-class frigates, when fit properly, cannot be caught, making it laughably easy to travel to any nullsec system you want. I see your snide comment about magic, all-knowing intel channels and raise you actual game mechanics.
Inti's however, do not make it easy to sit in a belt and scan because it involves sitting still on a grid for a bit as you have a range limit. Not simply dashing from gate to gate. Cloakies however work almost as well, and better for staying on the same grid for a while Understanding the relevant game mechanics is even better than simply dropping a random mechanic and pretending you know everything. Snap to come once I've formatted.
I hope you realize that for a goon it's not about who's right or wrong. He's going to be a petulant child regardless. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:10:00 -
[137] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Inti's however, do not make it easy to sit in a belt and scan because it involves sitting still on a grid for a bit as you have a range limit. Not simply dashing from gate to gate. Cloakies however work almost as well, and better for staying on the same grid for a while
Understanding the relevant game mechanics is even better than simply dropping a random mechanic and pretending you know everything. Snap to come once I've formatted.
Use the orbit key to keep moving. Alternatively, find a belt that has no rats in it. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:20:00 -
[138] - Quote
Prophet Tier wrote:I hope you realize that for a goon it's not about who's right or wrong. He's going to be a petulant child regardless. Ah, throwing stones in glass houses, I see. I just posted the adjunct thread as I was asked; I didn't leap upon the thread with multiple alts in a hamfisted attempt to protect my nascent industry. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
67
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:24:00 -
[139] - Quote
Querns wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: Inti's however, do not make it easy to sit in a belt and scan because it involves sitting still on a grid for a bit as you have a range limit. Not simply dashing from gate to gate. Cloakies however work almost as well, and better for staying on the same grid for a while
Understanding the relevant game mechanics is even better than simply dropping a random mechanic and pretending you know everything. Snap to come once I've formatted.
Use the orbit key to keep moving. Alternatively, find a belt that has no rats in it.
Better yet, put a cloak on that interceptor. If you're putting a rock scanner instead of tackle in the mids and are filling the lows with nanofibers anyway, they have tons of fitting space. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1503
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:28:00 -
[140] - Quote
Querns wrote: Use the orbit key to keep moving. Alternatively, find a belt that has no rats in it.
And you show a lack of understanding for how ore scanners work.
Anyway....
0.6 Averaged Azure Plagioclase2376012 Concentrated Veldspar595056 Condensed Scordite2604311 Dense Veldspar563471 Golden Omber77012 Massive Scordite276676 Omber757822 Plagioclase2149017 Rich Plagioclase187405 Scordite2486718 Silvery Omber71558 Veldspar5159313 Total count 121
0.0 Averaged Azure Plagioclase2791213 Concentrated Veldspar558146 Condensed Scordite255425 Dense Veldspar520403 Jaspet291513 Massive Scordite337602 Plagioclase2782119 Pristine Jaspet26933 Pure Jaspet278811 Pyroxeres2286627 Rich Plagioclase261005 Scordite2547016 Solid Pyroxeres219887 Veldspar6521425 Viscous Pyroxeres231715 And about 20 more asteroids that weren't convenient due to awkward placement Total count 180
Based on a quick snapshoot we can see quantities are about the same (Null trending very slightly larger in most cases but within reasonable ranges). Size of the belt is about 50% larger in terms of total number of asteroids. And Composition of the belt includes highly lucrative low sec ores as well.
Meaning that Null has vast quantities more of low ends relative to High, since they have vastly more systems overall. |
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Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
46
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:39:00 -
[141] - Quote
Edit: phone failure |
Nex Killer
Drunk3n Warfare
82
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:46:00 -
[142] - Quote
Querns wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: The Bloodtears, probably the most experienced nullsec miners that I know, repeatedly assert that nullsec asteroid belts have minuscule amounts of ore. Check the Bloodtear Industry Report if you don't believe me.
Link, and Link to their high sec report also? Since High sec belts don't have that much ore either. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1205/Bloodtear_Industy_Index_Report_v3.pdf
That report is from May 3, 2012 before the Odyssey patch which upgraded null-sec ore by a lot.
Quote: Ore Mining
We are adjusting the composition of several types of Ore that is found in low and null-security space. These changes help increase the reward for pilots mining in dangerous space. The volume of minerals obtained from these ores for each refine batch are:
Arkonor: 10000 Tritanium (+9700), 166 Zydrine, 333 Megacyte. Bistot: 12000 Pyerite (+11830), 341 Zydrine, 170 Megacyte. Crokite: 38000 Tritanium (+37669), 331 Nocxium, 663 Zydrine. Dark Ochre: 25500 Tritanium (+25250), 500 Nocxium, 250 Zydrine. Gneiss: 3700 Tritanium (+3529), 3700 Mexallon (+3529), 700 Isogen (+357), 171 Zydrine. Spodumain: 71000 Tritanium (+67810), 9000 Pyerite (+8590), 140 Megacyte.
You are trying to use very outdated data to prove a point. Come on now... One small nullsec asteroid cluster (not the static belts) refines into:
99,186,139 Tritanium 15,512,976 Pyerite 1,603,670 Mexallon 780,091 Isogen 400,432 Nocxium 228,563 Zydrine 234,283 Megacyte
That is with max skills, 4% implant, and a 54% refiner (lowsec PoS mod). Let say you want to build lets say a Archon Carrier with a BPO of 7% ME, all the component BPO with 10% ME and no boost from PoS mods or stations. You would need in raw mats:
42,202,738 Tritanium 10,341,576 Pyerite 3,847,179 Mexallon 603,908 Isogen 171,169 Nocxium 30,702 Zydrine 13,255 Megacyte
One small asteroid cluster gives you all the tritanium needed for 2x Archons, Pyerite for 1x Archon, Mexallon for 0.41x Archon (Gotta mine a little more no big), Isogen for 1x Archon, Nocxium for 2.33x Archons, Zydrine for 7.44x Archons and Megacyte for 17.67x Archons. So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control? As you can see by the numbers a small asteroid cluster gives you about all the mats you need to build a carrier and then some. That doesn't even include what is refined from a medium and large cluster. Why do you guys depend so much on highsec? If you guys recruited miners, protected them, told them to compress at a PoS before selling it to you for under jita prices, you wouldn't need to rely on highsec for mats to build things. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1503
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:49:00 -
[143] - Quote
Nex Killer wrote: So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control? See those really big numbers for how many archons worth of the high ends they mine. That's why. They import low ends to balance out that so they don't have to export a million high ends. However the static belts have all the low ends they need. They just have to adjust to actually mining static belts while the ore prices are the way they are now. And go back to the anoms when high end prices rise again. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:50:00 -
[144] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Nex Killer wrote: So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control? See those really big numbers for how many archons worth of the high ends they mine. That's why. They import low ends to balance out that so they don't have to export a million high ends. However the static belts have all the low ends they need. They just have to adjust to actually mining static belts while the ore prices are the way they are now. And go back to the anoms when high end prices rise again. You've got a pretty funny idea of how many belts any given nullsec dweller has access to.
Why don't you tell me -- right now, how many belts could I potentially mine? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1503
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:54:00 -
[145] - Quote
Querns wrote: You've got a pretty funny idea of how many belts any given nullsec dweller has access to.
Why don't you tell me -- right now, how many belts could I potentially mine?
Goons own what.... 200ish systems last I looked don't they as an alliance? So probably about 1500-2000 belts.
Hard to keep track of exactly how many systems you own and how many you are renting.
However if you only have access to 1 system of belts, that's because another 199 guys each have 1 other system also. So if you all mine your systems you have plenty.
Over all Null has access to somewhere in the region of 15-30,000 belts. Depending if the average is down at 5 a system or more like 10. In random map browsing I found systems with 20+ belts, so my personal guess is average is at least 10 a system, but I didn't do a database pull on that. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
46
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:58:00 -
[146] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Nex Killer wrote: So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control? See those really big numbers for how many archons worth of the high ends they mine. That's why. They import low ends to balance out that so they don't have to export a million high ends
This is the problem. The current null anoms provide so much m3 worth of high end ores that we are severely bottlenecked by low end minerals (mex). If we just "hire more miners" and continue to strip existing belts, "high end" ores will continue to plummet in price, and that's additional m3 that must be cycled before a new belt can be spawned. This is a fundamental problem with the nullsec anoms, which is why CCP has changed the ore comp multiple times on high end ores. They just need to flat out reduce the m3 of high end ores and replace it with low end m3 to balance out distribution.
It would take an incredible amount of man hours to locally source the mexallon for one super of any type. Meanwhile, we'd have a large enough surplus of zyd/mega to crash those prices below isogen levels. Then, mining in null would have such a low income per hour because of all the high end ores we'd have to cycle that it would be even worse of an actual profession in null. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1503
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:01:00 -
[147] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote: This is the problem. The current null anoms provide so much m3 worth of high end ores that we are severely bottlenecked by low end minerals (mex). If we just "hire more miners" and continue to strip existing belts, "high end" ores will continue to plummet in price, and that's additional m3 that must be cycled before a new belt can be spawned. This is a fundamental problem with the nullsec anoms, which is why CCP has changed the ore comp multiple times on high end ores. They just need to flat out reduce the m3 of high end ores and replace it with low end m3 to balance out distribution.
It would take an incredible amount of man hours to locally source the mexallon for one super of any type. Meanwhile, we'd have a large enough surplus of zyd/mega to crash those prices below isogen levels. Then, mining in null would have such a low income per hour because of all the high end ores we'd have to cycle that it would be even worse of an actual profession in null.
Static belts. Not Respawning Anoms. There is no 'fundamental problem' with the anoms. There is a problem with how you mine in Null. You have massive numbers of untouched static belts. Which have all those low & mid ends for you. |
Nex Killer
Drunk3n Warfare
82
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:02:00 -
[148] - Quote
Querns wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Nex Killer wrote: So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control? See those really big numbers for how many archons worth of the high ends they mine. That's why. They import low ends to balance out that so they don't have to export a million high ends. However the static belts have all the low ends they need. They just have to adjust to actually mining static belts while the ore prices are the way they are now. And go back to the anoms when high end prices rise again. You've got a pretty funny idea of how many belts any given nullsec dweller has access to. Why don't you tell me -- right now, how many belts could I potentially mine?
A small asteroid cluster is a anomaly created from the Infrastructure upgrades "Ore Prospecting" and once it is mined out a new one within seconds respawns. So to answer your question with with one system you have infinite amount of asteroid clusters to mine and means you have infinite resources. By you just asking that question goes to show you have little to no knowledge of how mining works and what nullsec mining has to offer and you shouldn't be giving any input on how compressing should work because you don't put in the work to do the mining. I'm not trying to be Grr Goon just putting the right facts out there, so that people don't get miss leaded.
Quote: Ore Prospecting Array This industrial upgrade adds per level one guaranteed hidden asteroid belt to the system, each of which will re-spawn instantly upon completion (they have to be mined out completely, the daily downtime does not respawn the site or single asteroids). A system will therefore be guaranteed to have at least five hidden asteroid belts at all times with an Ore Prospecting Array 5 installed (and active) - so long as the system's Industry Index remains at 5 as well. Note that if a site is not completed, and it is allowed to manually de-spawn after 3-4 days (typical time frame) then a new site will not respawn until after the next downtime. This means that leaving a single asteroid in a site will cause it to not despawn, and potentially slow the respawn of a new site.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:06:00 -
[149] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: You've got a pretty funny idea of how many belts any given nullsec dweller has access to.
Why don't you tell me -- right now, how many belts could I potentially mine?
Goons own what.... 200ish systems last I looked don't they as an alliance? So probably about 1500-2000 belts. Wrong -- I only have access to Deklein. All other regions are owned by allies or are renter systems, which are off-limits to me and mine.
Some SQL helps us quantify this:
Eve Static Data Export wrote: sqlite> select regionID from mapRegions where regionName = "Deklein"; 10000035 sqlite> select typeID, typeName FROM invTypes WHERE typeName LIKE "%Asteroid Belt%"; 15|Asteroid Belt sqlite> select count(*) from mapDenormalize WHERE regionID = 10000035 AND typeID = 15; 710
That's 710 belts. Let's mine out, say, all the veldspar from all of these belts. That gives us 463,019,400 units of veldspar. Reprocessing all of this veldspar gives you 1,921,530,510 trit at (an impossible) 100% refine. Multiplying this by the best possible refine in nullsec (86.83%) and pretending refinery taxes don't exist, that is 1,668,464,942 trit for the entire output of all the veldspar. Now, let's triple that, because three variants of veldspar exist (and I'm too lazy to do them individually; this figure is a bit higher than reality.) That gives us 5,005,394,825 units of trit. Using http://eve-industry.org/calc/ to eyeball the cost of an avatar puts us at 3,745,571,923 tritanium, which means, if we ruthlessly exploit every scrap of trit in an asteroid belt that we have access to, we can build 1.74 titans a day.
However, we have dozens of titan producers. Plus, there are supercarriers, capital ships, and mass numbers of battleships that have to be produced. Suffice it to say -- asteroid belts cannot sate our needs. War in TYOOL 2014 requires more mineral resources than we can mine locally. This is simply the facts of life. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nex Killer
Drunk3n Warfare
82
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:15:00 -
[150] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Nex Killer wrote: So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control? See those really big numbers for how many archons worth of the high ends they mine. That's why. They import low ends to balance out that so they don't have to export a million high ends This is the problem. The current null anoms provide so much m3 worth of high end ores that we are severely bottlenecked by low end minerals (mex). If we just "hire more miners" and continue to strip existing belts, "high end" ores will continue to plummet in price, and that's additional m3 that must be cycled before a new belt can be spawned. This is a fundamental problem with the nullsec anoms, which is why CCP has changed the ore comp multiple times on high end ores. They just need to flat out reduce the m3 of high end ores and replace it with low end m3 to balance out distribution. It would take an incredible amount of man hours to locally source the mexallon for one super of any type. Meanwhile, we'd have a large enough surplus of zyd/mega to crash those prices below isogen levels. Then, mining in null would have such a low income per hour because of all the high end ores we'd have to cycle that it would be even worse of an actual profession in null.
So the problem isn't with compressing then. The real problem is with what roids are within nullsec. So why ask CCP to change compressing and not ask them to add in more Plagioclase, Gneiss or Kernite to nullsec to fix the mex and low end mineral problem? You guys have your own CSM member on the team, so why not ask them to bring that up within one of the meetings? If CCP changed that then compressing how it is doesn't need to change. |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:15:00 -
[151] - Quote
Nex Killer wrote: A small asteroid cluster is a anomaly created from the Infrastructure upgrades "Ore Prospecting" and once it is mined out a new one within seconds respawns. So to answer your question with with one system you have infinite amount of asteroid clusters to mine and means you have infinite resources. By you just asking that question goes to show you have little to no knowledge of how mining works and what nullsec mining has to offer and you shouldn't be giving any input on how compressing should work because you don't put in the work to do the mining. I'm not trying to be Grr Goon just putting the right facts out there, so that people don't get miss leaded.
"Infinite" is still bound by the amount of time one is able to devote towards a given task. The number of useless highends contained in these sites in proportion to the lowends we lack puts huge speed bumps in acquiring the minerals you need to build, regardless of the rapacity at which you plunder these sites. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1505
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:17:00 -
[152] - Quote
Querns wrote:That's 710 belts. Let's mine out, say, all the veldspar from all of these belts. That gives us 463,019,400 units of veldspar. Reprocessing all of this veldspar gives you 1,921,530,510 trit at (an impossible) 100% refine. Multiplying this by the best possible refine in nullsec (86.83%) and pretending refinery taxes don't exist, that is 1,668,464,942 trit for the entire output of all the veldspar. Now, let's triple that, because three variants of veldspar exist (and I'm too lazy to do them individually; this figure is a bit higher than reality.) That gives us 5,005,394,825 units of trit. Using http://eve-industry.org/calc/ to eyeball the cost of an avatar puts us at 3,745,571,923 tritanium, which means, if we ruthlessly exploit every scrap of trit in an asteroid belt that we have access to, we can build 1.74 titans a day. However, we have dozens of titan producers. Plus, there are supercarriers, capital ships, and mass numbers of battleships that have to be produced. Suffice it to say -- asteroid belts cannot sate our needs. War in TYOOL 2014 requires more mineral resources than we can mine locally. This is simply the facts of life. Sorry.... remind me how many titans you loose a day? In fact how many titans have been lost across EVE this year, which has had the bloodiest titan battle ever that isn't likely to be repeated unless the goons have a civil war between titan pilots since no-one else has that kind of resources any more. And remind me why you couldn't buy the ore from the renters (Which I understand aren't allowed to build their own titans)
Also, remind me why you didn't count any of the trit from the other ores in those belts. That's 1.74 Titans from JUST THE VELD! Most of those other ores also have Trit in them. And more relevant to this thread, they are also higher value, and by mining them you'll also make high ends worth more again. Which is the real point, it's Nulls own fault that high ends are worth so little because they don't make use of the other ores available to them.
I think we have found the issue though, it's called living beyond your means and unrealistic expectations. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:18:00 -
[153] - Quote
Nex Killer wrote: So the problem isn't with compressing then. The real problem is with what roids are within nullsec. So why ask CCP to change compressing and not ask them to add in more Plagioclase, Gneiss or Kernite to nullsec to fix the mex and low end mineral problem? You guys have your own CSM member on the team, so why not ask them to bring that up within one of the meetings? If CCP changed that then compressing how it is doesn't need to change.
No one said compression was at fault -- the entire point of my OP post is to give it a shot in the arm to increase the ability for highsec to market its wares. This whole "just mine it yourselves" tangent that gets pulled out every time nullsec dares to agitate for its own good has remarkably little to do with the thread's purpose. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1505
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:22:00 -
[154] - Quote
Querns wrote: No one said compression was at fault -- the entire point of my OP post is to give it a shot in the arm to increase the ability for highsec to market its wares. This whole "just mine it yourselves" tangent that gets pulled out every time nullsec dares to agitate for its own good has remarkably little to do with the thread's purpose.
That's because the thread wasn't about high sec marketing it's wares. It was about Null saying they NEEDED to buy from highsec. On the topic of High Sec marketing it's wares, why exactly are you trying to destroy a natural force CCP have introduced to encourage corps to grow in high sec and to actually keep towers up during war decs? One would have thought you would love the idea of High Sec corps actually growing and having things at risk during a war dec by being large enough to make efficient and constant use of a tower. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:23:00 -
[155] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Sorry.... remind me how many titans you loose a day? In fact how many titans have been lost across EVE this year, which has had the bloodiest titan battle ever that isn't likely to be repeated unless the goons have a civil war between titan pilots since no-one else has that kind of resources any more.
Somebody doesn't understand the concept of an arms race. :V
Quote: And remind me why you couldn't buy the ore from the renters (Which I understand aren't allowed to build their own titans)
We don't force our renters to make money in any particular way. We're not slavers. Our renters aren't allowed to build titans because there are no feasible ways to ensure that said titans do not end up in the hands of our enemies. Again, arms race.
Quote: Also, remind me why you didn't count any of the trit from the other ores in those belts. That's 1.74 Titans from JUST THE VELD! Most of those other ores also have Trit in them.
If you wanna do the math on that, feel free. Our needs will still outstrip our ability to supply.
Quote: And more relevant to this thread, they are also higher value, and by mining them you'll also make high ends worth more again. Which is the real point, it's Nulls own fault that high ends are worth so little because they don't make use of the other ores available to them.
This is a decent attempt at a coherent thought.
Quote:I think we have found the issue though, it's called living beyond your means and unrealistic expectations. Mountains out of molehills. All I want is for compression to be more ubiquitous. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:23:00 -
[156] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: No one said compression was at fault -- the entire point of my OP post is to give it a shot in the arm to increase the ability for highsec to market its wares. This whole "just mine it yourselves" tangent that gets pulled out every time nullsec dares to agitate for its own good has remarkably little to do with the thread's purpose.
That's because the thread wasn't about high sec marketing it's wares. It was about Null saying they NEEDED to buy from highsec. On the topic of High Sec marketing it's wares, why exactly are you trying to destroy a natural force CCP have introduced to encourage corps to grow in high sec and to actually keep towers up during war decs? One would have thought you would love the idea of High Sec corps actually growing and having things at risk during a war dec by being large enough to make efficient and constant use of a tower. You're reaching. Considerably. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1505
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:27:00 -
[157] - Quote
Querns wrote: You're reaching. Considerably.
No, I'm really not. All your arguments have boiled down to 'Goons want stuff with no effort to themselves'. I've even produced numbers to back my case, and the Ore compression is showing a natural influence to encourage corp growth. With Corp & POS management slated for before the end of the year, that will help alleviate a lot of the theft issues people get scared by as well and continue that trend of actually creating reasons for high sec people to corp together.
Your proposal however will remove a reason to bother with a tower just so Null can buy more ore to keep the arms race (against who exactly, highsec? You already have a blue doughnut). Without letting natural EVE market forces work. You are trying to force people down a path, rather than let gameplay emerge |
Bella Sprout
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:28:00 -
[158] - Quote
550 cycles of an XL belt will produce the same amount of veld as all 710 belts in the region. You'd be better off getting all of your systems to industry 4 and cherrypicking lowends before even thinking about mining out all of the belts because the control over belt spawns is worth plenty by itself. This excludes the small and medium belts too, which have a fair amount of low ends. There is 0 reason to be mining belts in null unless you do not have access to anything else--as it should be because the ore anoms are a result of actually utilizing space
Hint: keeping that many systems on that high of an industry index is not practical |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:30:00 -
[159] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: You're reaching. Considerably.
No, I'm really not. All your arguments have boiled down to 'Goons want stuff with no effort to themselves'. I've even produced numbers to back my case, and the Ore compression is showing a natural influence to encourage corp growth. With Corp & POS management slated for before the end of the year, that will help alleviate a lot of the theft issues people get scared by as well and continue that trend of actually creating reasons for high sec people to corp together.
You're constructing a contrived vignette with very little basis in reality.
Quote: Your proposal however will remove a reason to bother with a tower just so Null can buy more ore to keep the arms race (against who exactly, highsec? You already have a blue doughnut). Without letting natural EVE market forces work. You are trying to force people down a path, rather than let gameplay emerge
You are speaking of a political landscape you do not understand. Not surprising, given your repeated use of memes such as "blue doughnut" and "intel channels." This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1505
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:30:00 -
[160] - Quote
Bella Sprout wrote:550 cycles of an XL belt will produce the same amount of veld as all 710 belts in the region. Now tell me how long to mine that Veld vs how long to cycle 550 XL Belts. I don't even have to run the numbers to know cycling those XL belts will be vastly longer than mining said static belts for Veld. And you don't have to try and hold an Industry level to mine the static belts either.
As for you Querns. Yes, it's all in our imagination, Goons are really beset with enemies from all sides. This is why the number of Null entities has steadily decreased as any enemy of the goons has suffered coincidental 'accidents' like missed Sov bills when the goons co-incidentally had their titan fleet ready to go despite the other side having more total titans, alliance wallet thefts... and other such 'accidents'. And why the political map has stabilised into a few huge entities, which have an agreement between each other. Yes, it's all my imagination and you are really loosing super caps constantly and that there is no such thing as an intel channel either. |
|
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:43:00 -
[161] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:Pookoko wrote:I don't understand why some 'small corp' thinks having a POS is out of their scope. My first POS in New Eden was anchored by our two-men corp (with no alts). And back then we had to grind faction standings all the way to have a high-sec POS, which took a lot of effort. Also it was way before the fuel blocks were introduced and filling up POS fuel was real PITA.
Now POS can be anchored anywhere in high-sec with no standing requirement. Now there is convenience of fuel block. Now there are advantages of manufacturing at high-sec POS. Now you can even compress ores to make even more profit - and heck, compression is instant and doesn't require any BPC.
It is already SO EASY now to have a high-sec POS and compress ores. Just anchor a freaking POS and be done with it. I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically. Now, 6M ISK isn't that much for bigger corps, but for smaller corps that's a non-trivial amount of ISK to spend every day. At minimum, you have to bring in enough ISK to make the POS worthwhile -- so you need to make more than 6M ISK per day in your efforts. But yes, running a POS now is way, way easier to do now. The standings requirements alone were a huge pain to grind up before, which is why many industrialists didn't bother. But now, if you can afford the 6M or so ISK cost each day, they're a no-brainer. However, there is a caveat: I think (and hope) that POS's are not long for the world. If the mobile modules are the wave of the future, I hope CCP will create a Mobile Ore Compression module so you can compress your ore right in the belt. I'm hesitant to build up a large logistics chain around POS's for just this reason.
In a way I see your point, and the other poster who mentioned that it takes time to recoup the investment. Especially if you are a solo miner, like many people are, then it may be easier not to have a POS.
But this is only if you consider using POS exclusively for compression. If you are a small corp with even just a few industrialists, then there is a lot of benefit to be had by having a POS. What I meant was that a) POS is now easier to anchor & keep than ever before, b) now there is ADDED bonus of compression.
I do agree that having POS JUST for compression is a hassle unless you intend to do serious amount of compressing. I was just pointing out that many opportunities exist with POS, and these opportunities are more readily available now, and it is up to players to make use of them for their own benefit.
Having said that though, mobile compression module is an interesting idea, if other players can steal from it like flipping a can, which will generate new possibilities too. Come to think about it, I like this idea much more than high-sec station compressing.
What I'm against is that station compression is instant profit with no game play. Having a POS can be good, but like some others mentioned it's also a risk in a way because your asset is in space - i.e. it can be attacked or messed with by other players. Station compression automatically increase the value of your ores with no risk or game play attached.
So a mobile module where there is some element of risk and vulnerability while compressing ore in space would be something that gives a choice of risk (albeit minor) vs. reward. If we are going to do Orca compression, there should be some element of risk/vulnerability for this activity too (maybe something like Orca's resist profile goes down during compression 'siege mod' so it becomes more gankable?)
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:43:00 -
[162] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bella Sprout wrote:550 cycles of an XL belt will produce the same amount of veld as all 710 belts in the region. Now tell me how long to mine that Veld vs how long to cycle 550 XL Belts. I don't even have to run the numbers to know cycling those XL belts will be vastly longer than mining said static belts for Veld. And you don't have to try and hold an Industry level to mine the static belts either. As for you Querns. Yes, it's all in our imagination, Goons are really beset with enemies from all sides. This is why the number of Null entities has steadily decreased as any enemy of the goons has suffered coincidental 'accidents' like missed Sov bills when the goons co-incidentally had their titan fleet ready to go despite the other side having more total titans, alliance wallet thefts... and other such 'accidents'. And why the political map has stabilised into a few huge entities, which have an agreement between each other. Yes, it's all my imagination and you are really loosing super caps constantly and that there is no such thing as an intel channel either. For someone who is constantly demanding hard evidence, you sure are willing to use poorly-conceived mental shortcuts when you drift out of your element.
Hint: you are out of your element. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:45:00 -
[163] - Quote
Pookoko wrote:Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:Pookoko wrote:I don't understand why some 'small corp' thinks having a POS is out of their scope. My first POS in New Eden was anchored by our two-men corp (with no alts). And back then we had to grind faction standings all the way to have a high-sec POS, which took a lot of effort. Also it was way before the fuel blocks were introduced and filling up POS fuel was real PITA.
Now POS can be anchored anywhere in high-sec with no standing requirement. Now there is convenience of fuel block. Now there are advantages of manufacturing at high-sec POS. Now you can even compress ores to make even more profit - and heck, compression is instant and doesn't require any BPC.
It is already SO EASY now to have a high-sec POS and compress ores. Just anchor a freaking POS and be done with it. I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically. Now, 6M ISK isn't that much for bigger corps, but for smaller corps that's a non-trivial amount of ISK to spend every day. At minimum, you have to bring in enough ISK to make the POS worthwhile -- so you need to make more than 6M ISK per day in your efforts. But yes, running a POS now is way, way easier to do now. The standings requirements alone were a huge pain to grind up before, which is why many industrialists didn't bother. But now, if you can afford the 6M or so ISK cost each day, they're a no-brainer. However, there is a caveat: I think (and hope) that POS's are not long for the world. If the mobile modules are the wave of the future, I hope CCP will create a Mobile Ore Compression module so you can compress your ore right in the belt. I'm hesitant to build up a large logistics chain around POS's for just this reason. In a way I see your point, and the other poster who mentioned that it takes time to recoup the investment. Especially if you are a solo miner, like many people are, then it may be easier not to have a POS. But this is only if you consider using POS exclusively for compression. If you are a small corp with even just a few industrialists, then there is a lot of benefit to be had by having a POS. What I meant was that a) POS is now easier to anchor & keep than ever before, b) now there is ADDED bonus of compression. I do agree that having POS JUST for compression is a hassle unless you intend to do serious amount of compressing. I was just pointing out that many opportunities exist with POS, and these opportunities are more readily available now, and it is up to players to make use of them for their own benefit. Having said that though, mobile compression module is an interesting idea, if other players can steal from it like flipping a can, which will generate new possibilities too. Come to think about it, I like this idea much more than high-sec station compressing. What I'm against is that station compression is instant profit with no game play. Having a POS can be good, but like some others mentioned it's also a risk in a way because your asset is in space - i.e. it can be attacked or messed with by other players. Station compression automatically increase the value of your ores with no risk or game play attached. So a mobile module where there is some element of risk and vulnerability while compressing ore in space would be something that gives a choice of risk (albeit minor) vs. reward. If we are going to do Orca compression, there should be some element of risk/vulnerability for this activity too (maybe something like Orca's resist profile goes down during compression 'siege mod' so it becomes more gankable?) These are interesting thoughts. I think just the bog-standard siege mechanic already in place for the Industrial Core would suffice, to start -- being frozen in the belt in highsec makes you vulnerable to suicide gank. If it was deemed too "safe," additional concessions could be added after subsequent patches. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
212
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 01:19:00 -
[164] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically. You're thinking this through wrong. You only put it up when and where you need it. A compression POS doesn't just save you ISK, it lets you mine anywhere in high-sec without the need of a freighter fleet to get your goods to market. So not only do you make more ISK on the rocks you mine, but it saves you over one billion ISK for your logistics chain. It's a better investment than upgrading a barge to an exhumer.
|
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
134
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 07:15:00 -
[165] - Quote
If the problem is a shortage of compressed omber and kernite on the market, then making ore compression ubiquitous is not going to help.
There is very little omber on the market, because it is terrible isk/hr to mine. High sec miners can make more isk per hour by mining literally any other type of ore. Omber has been on the bottom of the heap for years. High sec miners are accustomed to moving on to a different belt when all the good ores are gone. Since very little omber is mined, very little will be available to compress. Perhaps your purchasing spreadsheet should be adjusted to minimize omber requirements.
Kernite comes from Amarr space, so it is going to get compressed over there. Somebody flying a freighter of compressed kernite through Madirmilire -> Niarja is going to make a glorious killmail one of these days. Forgive everyone else for not wanting to be that guy. I also believe the relative populations of Caldari space vs Amarr space means fewer miners are gathering Kernite. If the prices are right, people will move.
In the meantime, you will probably need a few jump freighters full of straight isogen. At least there is no need to haul tritanium and pyrite. There are plenty of people 0.01 isking each other on their compressed veldspar and scordite sell orders. That is what leads me to believe the compressed ore market is doing just fine.
What would happen if ore compression becomes ubiquitous? Then compression loses its value and you will buy all your compressed ore at mineral prices. For 11 years, the default thing for every miner to do at the end of the night was hit GÇŁrefine.GÇĄ If that button is simply changed to a GÇŁcompressGÇĄ button, there is still no compelling interesting decision. All the ore on the market will be compressed ore, and that compressed ore will sell for very close to its mineral value.
Currently, compression is tied to a risk (being in a player corp and hanging a POS at a moon) and a time consuming hassle (freightering ore to the POS.) Because of this, compression is a value add. Some miners will choose to do it and get better prices for their ore. Many miners wonGÇÖt. Some people will step up to become the middle-men who buy ore from the miners and compress it. They want to get paid. More people interacting with each other is good.
As you can tell from this 9-page thread full of people screaming, GÇŁDonGÇÖt touch my new cash-cow!GÇĄ there are plenty of people who want to be middle-men and will lose that niche if compression is made easier.
So making compression ubiquitous gives cheap compressed ore to everyone, but does not solve the null-sec isogen and mexallon problems. Meanwhile, it snuffs out a new mini-profession that just started a month ago. That is why I am against doing anything to change compression mechanics for the time being.
However, I do want to re-iterate that I support a change to the refining UI that puts big red numbers in front of the miner to remind them that pushing the refine button causes them to lose value.
|
Nex Killer
Drunk3n Warfare
82
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 07:21:00 -
[166] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:However, there is a caveat: I think (and hope) that POS's are not long for the world. If the mobile modules are the wave of the future, I hope CCP will create a Mobile Ore Compression module so you can compress your ore right in the belt. I'm hesitant to build up a large logistics chain around POS's for just this reason.
I wouldn't mind seeing the Orca being able to compress or a mobile compressing unit. |
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 09:00:00 -
[167] - Quote
Querns wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: You've got a pretty funny idea of how many belts any given nullsec dweller has access to.
Why don't you tell me -- right now, how many belts could I potentially mine?
Goons own what.... 200ish systems last I looked don't they as an alliance? So probably about 1500-2000 belts. Wrong -- I only have access to Deklein. All other regions are owned by allies or are renter systems, which are off-limits to me and mine. Some SQL helps us quantify this: Eve Static Data Export wrote: sqlite> select regionID from mapRegions where regionName = "Deklein"; 10000035 sqlite> select typeID, typeName FROM invTypes WHERE typeName LIKE "%Asteroid Belt%"; 15|Asteroid Belt sqlite> select count(*) from mapDenormalize WHERE regionID = 10000035 AND typeID = 15; 710
That's 710 belts. Let's mine out, say, all the veldspar from all of these belts. That gives us 463,019,400 units of veldspar. Reprocessing all of this veldspar gives you 1,921,530,510 trit at (an impossible) 100% refine. Multiplying this by the best possible refine in nullsec (86.83%) and pretending refinery taxes don't exist, that is 1,668,464,942 trit for the entire output of all the veldspar. Now, let's triple that, because three variants of veldspar exist (and I'm too lazy to do them individually; this figure is a bit higher than reality.) That gives us 5,005,394,825 units of trit. Using http://eve-industry.org/calc/ to eyeball the cost of an avatar puts us at 3,745,571,923 tritanium, which means, if we ruthlessly exploit every scrap of trit in an asteroid belt that we have access to, we can build 1.33 titans a day. However, we have dozens of titan producers. Plus, there are supercarriers, capital ships, and mass numbers of battleships that have to be produced. Suffice it to say -- asteroid belts cannot sate our needs. War in TYOOL 2014 requires more mineral resources than we can mine locally. This is simply the facts of life.
Sweet so need to hire enough miners to mine all that veldspar and it can fill my weekly use in about 4 days, not bad, now the other minerals still...
So im recruiting miners, anyone wants to mine some veldspar in 0.0 belts feel free to mail me! |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
36
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 09:37:00 -
[168] - Quote
With all this discussion about 0.0 belts, let us not pretend the OP was actually interested in mining.
Anybody who has ever mined knows that the asteroid belts in 0.0 contain more ore per rock on average, including the low ends. So just based on this you are already better off than highsec miners - in addition to this you have infinite grav anomalies and infinite combat anomalies which also contain ore.
But this is not what this is about. Truth is, it doesn't matter whether you could mine your materials in 0.0, because you do not have enough people to so, even if you wanted. But actually you do not even want to. You care less than a rats arse about miners, what you want is cheap minerals in your boosted production stations so you can put your Capital BPOs to work.
It has been pointed out by several people how you could adapt. But you do not want to, because that would be *effort* and you are used to the Easy Mode Module compression.
Some people have adapted, some people profit from the change, you go whine to the forums. My sympathy for you: zero.
I just double-checked on the buy orders in Jita concerning the minerals you complain you are missing. There are no decent buy orders nor orders in quantities that are significantly above the mineral value or raw ore value. So from the easiest option you have (just buy it in highsec), you probably want to wait until there is quantities on sell orders with razor thin margins. Again, my sympathy for you: zero.
If you look at the overall market for ore (not compressed ore) on eve central, it seems obvious that a significant quantity does not see the market in the first place, but is traded via contacts, contracts and buy programs. So the smart people obviously approach mining corporations and buy in bulk. But for that to work you probably need to have at least a decent reputation. Sucks for you, i guess. |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
213
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 12:49:00 -
[169] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:Kernite comes from Amarr space, so it is going to get compressed over there. Somebody flying a freighter of compressed kernite through Madirmilire -> Niarja is going to make a glorious killmail one of these days. Forgive everyone else for not wanting to be that guy. Deep Space Transports are a thing.
Shoogie wrote:What would happen if ore compression becomes ubiquitous? Then compression loses its value and you will buy all your compressed ore at mineral prices. The value in compression is its portability. If we're buying compressed ore at mineral prices, then we are buying it assuming an 86%0.0 refine yield, not the 76% of high sec.
Shoogie wrote:Currently, compression is tied to a risk (being in a player corp and hanging a POS at a moon) and a time consuming hassle (freightering ore to the POS.) The risk is tiny: one man corps don't get war decced as they are pitifully easy to shed. And the time consuming hassle is absolutely nothing compared to moving raw or refined product to market.
Besides, regarding this "time consuming hassle," I spent four hours over the weekend compressing ore I purchased from the market, and I used a research alt that can barely sit in a Miasmos (Gallente Industrial 1, Evasive Maneuvering 0, Space Ship Command 3, Afterburner 0 - Only thing going was Hull Upgrades 3), so forget about a freighter. Four hours, I netted 160 million. One character using skills a day-old could have, 40 million an hour. What does high-sec mining generally get a fully-skilled solo player per hour? At the moment, there is a time consuming hassle here, and compression isn't it.
Shoogie wrote:That is why I am against doing anything to change compression mechanics for the time being. I agree with you here. There is no need to change compression mechanics. They're fine. People just need to know what's up.
|
Oxide Ammar
157
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 12:49:00 -
[170] - Quote
Firvain wrote:Sweet so need to hire enough miners to mine all that veldspar and it can fill my weekly use in about 4 days, not bad, now the other minerals still...
So im recruiting miners, anyone wants to mine some veldspar in 0.0 belts feel free to mail me!
There is question bothering me really ...why none of you cap builders hire indy corps in hi sec ? it's far easier and safer for you and them to work with mutually agreement to provide you exclusively with compressed ore on weekly basis. If not one corp enough why don't you do this for 5 or may be 10 corps. Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing. |
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
124
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 13:18:00 -
[171] - Quote
Oxide Ammar wrote:Firvain wrote:Sweet so need to hire enough miners to mine all that veldspar and it can fill my weekly use in about 4 days, not bad, now the other minerals still...
So im recruiting miners, anyone wants to mine some veldspar in 0.0 belts feel free to mail me! There is question bothering me really ...why none of you cap builders hire indy corps in hi sec ? it's far easier and safer for you and them to work with mutually agreement to provide you exclusively with compressed ore on weekly basis. If not one corp enough why don't you do this for 5 or may be 10 corps.
You obviously missed my responses, that is exactly what i have done.
I talked to them, educated them, helped them increase their yields, now they make more isk and are very happy and loyal.
In order for goons to do this, they would have to play nice to pubbies, and also try and talk the same people they constantly gank to sell them the very stuff they gank for funsies
Kind of a catch-22
I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part |
Strawberries'n Carnage
Elessar Recruitment and Training Division
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 13:29:00 -
[172] - Quote
I think this thread has pointed me in the direction of a new Eve Career.
I am fairly new to Eve so please excuse my ignorance. I have read the industry changes for the last 2 patches so I think I have an idea on how compression should work but when I try to verify the process in game I am seeing something different.
The POS changes, the ability to put them up in any system without needing standing. This works fine, I was able to scout out a spot at a moon and put my POS up and my compression array.
I then started to look at compression itself before I set up any ore buy orders. In the dev blogs it is mentioned that the compression blueprints will no longer be needed and owners will be compensated; however when looking at compressed ore it still shows a blueprint as being needed. Has this not been implemented yet or has the old information not been removed?
I then tried to look at pricing to see what ores would be good to start with and I am once again confused by what I see. Veld is selling at Jita at 18 per, while compressed is about 2200 per; when I look at the amount of veld needed to make one compressed ore (as per the blueprint) it is requiring 166500 veld to compress. It is most likely that I have no idea what I should be looking at but the math does not add up.
I will admit that I had not thought to look at contracts to see pricing there and I will as soon as I am able.
Are the compression blueprints still needed for ore compression? If they are no longer needed then all of the compressed ores need to have their information updated. It would be informative to be able to look at the compressed ore and know how much raw ore is needed to produce a single unit as well as any required batch amounts in addition to the minerals received from refining. Some info on being able to compress at a POS compression array or Rorqual would at least point players in the right direction if they wish to pursue compression.
Would anyone be able to give me a rundown or point me towards an explanation of how the compression process works?
Please have mercy on my noobie soul. |
Valedictio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 13:35:00 -
[173] - Quote
compression is easy,
100 Units of Ore Compresses to 1 Unit of Compresses Ore.
You need no blueprints or anything else, Just the ore and the ability to compress somewhere. and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.
Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON' |
Strawberries'n Carnage
Elessar Recruitment and Training Division
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 13:37:00 -
[174] - Quote
then that is a huge reason that more people are not doing it, the compressed ores are still referring to the old method which seems very unprofitable. |
Valedictio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 14:27:00 -
[175] - Quote
So there is a shortage of Compressed ore in Jita of the various flavours wanted/needed by our esteemed overlords in null ?
Despite various posts claiming Empire Industry is dead, I'm still doing it, granted not to the same extent mainly due to RL constraints and a lacklustre approach (Hello Kitty Industry).
I don't believe there is any problem with compression, we do not need Station compression, either fly direct to Rorq or your compression array, both are quite capable of it.
As to the lack of certain ore types, you will find all four empires are missing at least one of the minerals (as CCP states, to encourage trade) Jita being in Caldari Space means they have no access to Omber (Barring Grav sites) so naturally look to the other Trade Hubs.
Null is always going to have an abundance of high end minerals to export to empire, you have an abundance of them.
If your ISBoxer fleets aren't being selective and going to belts or your region cannot support your Industry requirements then MAYBE, Just maybe you are doing it wrong.
Regardless of how rational and informed you come across no empire miner (who isn't an alt of yours) is going to trust you to come to any sort of formal arrangement to supply Ore, you have hated and riddiculed them since your appearance in the game, payback a ***** ?
seems the only nullsec entity complaining about a lack of anything to do with compressed ore or certain minerals are CFC and friends, if everyone else is doing fine ask yourself what are you doing (or have done) wrong ? and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.
Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON' |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
135
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 14:50:00 -
[176] - Quote
Strawberries'n Carnage wrote:then that is a huge reason that more people are not doing it, the compressed ores are still referring to the old method which seems very unprofitable.
If it is true that the in game information is still referencing the old way to compress ore, then that is a big bug that needs to be fixed quickly. I honestly have not looked recently.
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Reprocessing#Compression
Eve University's website is updated.
Compression is dead simple: Online your POS. Online your Compression Array. Dump your ore in the compression array. Right click your ore and choose compress. Compression is instant. It requires no blueprints and no skills. 100 units of ore become 1 unit of compressed ore. That makes it very easy to quickly see how much profit you are making from each batch of raw ore. Just slide the decimal point.
The worst part is hassling with the POS interface if you have never run one before. |
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
20
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 15:07:00 -
[177] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically. You're thinking this through wrong. You only put it up when and where you need it. A compression POS doesn't just save you ISK, it lets you mine anywhere in high-sec without the need of a freighter fleet to get your goods to market. So not only do you make more ISK on the rocks you mine, but it saves you over one billion ISK for your logistics chain. It's a better investment than upgrading a barge to an exhumer.
Oh, I agree (mostly). In fact, this is what I do myself. But it's not pain-free -- you still have the POS setup/teardown process, which can take up to an hour depending on how far away your target system is from where you're currently staged. Finding a moon, anchoring, and onlining everything will take a minimum of 30 minutes, and that doesn't take into account the process of getting all the stuff there in the first place. If you're going to do a full-on mining op, then it's usually worth it -- but for smaller ops or targeted ops where you're just looking for a specific amount of a certain ore (for manufacturing), then it's not really worth it. POS-staged mining ops are all about scale, and unless you have the scale, it's not worth the trouble.
As I said before, I think a solo or small-gang miner only needs one more element to be perfectly successful -- a Mobile Ore Compression module or something similar so they can compress the ore right in the belt and carry it in the barge's bay. Presto! Problem fixed. A POS retains its value for bigger ops (because Mobile modules are player-specific), but solo miners are freed from the overhead that a POS carries. CCP did this for the Mobile Tractor Unit and the Mobile Depot; I don't see why they couldn't do the same for the compression array.
|
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1208
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 15:23:00 -
[178] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:The current problem is all the NPC-corp miners who still do the "mine -> refine -> sell to market" shtick, and refuse to change their gameplay (even if "just sell the damn ore" is actually more profitable).
Also, they're probably telling all the rookies that their way is the way to go.
As is the game's skill tree. As is the game's tutorial. I just ran an alt through it, and I don't remember seeing a peep about ore compression (though I admittedly wasn't looking too closely). Refining, sure, that comes up multiple times. It's completely unreasonable to expect optimal knowledge about ore compression to have reached down this far, especially when it is dependent on POSes.
Adding ore compression to the Orca would benefit larger mining corps, but neither Orcas nor freighters make much sense for the really small operations (never mind POSes--more because of the hassle than the expense). As I recall, it takes three max-skilled, max-yield Hulks before it makes sense to put an additional pilot in an Orca instead of another Hulk, and we're not talking about max-skilled, max-yield Hulks here. I'm sure the number is higher for Procurers, Retrievers and Skiffs skilled to 3 and 4.
The reason the Retriever and Mackinaw are so popular is because they have built-in haulers, so in a small group you aren't spending a character on logistics overhead. Everyone can mine. That popularity points to a lack of interest among miners for logistics ships generally. Unfortunately (fortunately?), you can't put a POS in an ore bay, which means that the pop-up POS posited in this thread is going to be used exclusively by larger and more organized corps. Not just the skill tree, not just the tutorial, not just inertia, but the very design of the most popular barges makes it easier and more painless to refine in station.
Given that, if you want compressed ore, you're going to have to reach out to the miners and set something up that works for all parties. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
213
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 15:26:00 -
[179] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:Oh, I agree (mostly). In fact, this is what I do myself. But it's not pain-free -- you still have the POS setup/teardown process, which can take up to an hour depending on how far away your target system is from where you're currently staged. Finding a moon, anchoring, and onlining everything will take a minimum of 30 minutes, and that doesn't take into account the process of getting all the stuff there in the first place. If you're going to do a full-on mining op, then it's usually worth it -- but for smaller ops or targeted ops where you're just looking for a specific amount of a certain ore (for manufacturing), then it's not really worth it. POS-staged mining ops are all about scale, and unless you have the scale, it's not worth the trouble.
As I said before, I think a solo or small-gang miner only needs one more element to be perfectly successful -- a Mobile Ore Compression module or something similar so they can compress the ore right in the belt and carry it in the barge's bay. Presto! Problem fixed. A POS retains its value for bigger ops (because Mobile modules are player-specific), but solo miners are freed from the overhead that a POS carries. CCP did this for the Mobile Tractor Unit and the Mobile Depot; I don't see why they couldn't do the same for the compression array. You are right that scale is the issue, but if you are mining to build, then you honestly don't care about efficiency. If you are a dedicated miner, then scale shouldn't be an issue for you: you can afford to stockpile minerals until you have enough where taking 15 minutes to set up a POS (only error in your math: 7:30 to anchor, 7:30 to online, and the compression array is either instantaneous or 5 whole seconds) is a negligible cost.
Also, if I'm a solo miner going to spend a day mining in a system, I'd set up the POS, load it with fuel, and drop my ore off at the compression array. The time saved not having to deal with docking timers and align times at a station will pay for it. If I'm an ISO-boxer, well, scale ceases to be an issue anyway.
Meanwhile, your Mobile Compression Array would make the Retriever/Mackinaw useless.
Dersen Lowery wrote:The reason the Retriever and Mackinaw are so popular is because they have built-in haulers, so in a small group you aren't spending a character on logistics overhead. Everyone can mine. That popularity points to a lack of interest among miners for logistics ships generally. Um, no. The Retriever and Mackinaw are popular because you don't have to jetcan mine and risk being can-flipped. It's not because miners think industrial ships are icky. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
157
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 15:32:00 -
[180] - Quote
Is this thread still going on? Are the CFC crybabies going to flood the forums with their tears? If the adult babies in the CFC want to cry to someone about the state of industry, I would like to recommend they start with their friendly CSM reps that they elected. I as well as multiple other folks told these clowns that the changes to mining and ore compression would blow up in their faces. They ignored it of course because they knew better. Go read Mord Fiddle's last few blog posts, he named it hubris. How prophetic of Mord. Remember "farms and fields"? Remember Mynnna, the self proclaimed economics expert and noted windbag, when he said the high sec industrialist "won't be missed" and something along the lines of "F them".
Now all of these chickens have come home to roost. I compressed over 800 million units of ore last week and I am selling it to the enemies of the CFC as cheaply as possible. It may be time for CFC line members to HTFU and start training some mining skills. Or maybe get the Mittani to write another subcap superiority article on his propaganda site in an attempt to change the game. |
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
127
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 15:43:00 -
[181] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Is this thread still going on? Are the CFC crybabies going to flood the forums with their tears? If the adult babies in the CFC want to cry to someone about the state of industry, I would like to recommend they start with their friendly CSM reps that they elected. I as well as multiple other folks told these clowns that the changes to mining and ore compression would blow up in their faces. They ignored it of course because they knew better. Go read Mord Fiddle's last few blog posts, he named it hubris. How prophetic of Mord. Remember "farms and fields"? Remember Mynnna, the self proclaimed economics expert and noted windbag, when he said the high sec industrialist "won't be missed" and something along the lines of "F them". Now all of these chickens have come home to roost. I compressed over 800 million units of ore last week and I am selling it to the enemies of the CFC as cheaply as possible. It may be time for CFC line members to HTFU and start training some mining skills. Or maybe get the Mittani to write another subcap superiority article on his propaganda site in an attempt to change the game.
send me an in game mail - I am sure we can do business |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 15:49:00 -
[182] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote: Kind of a catch-22
I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part
This explains why you were screaming on these very forums a mere three weeks ago begging people to compress instead of refine.
Oh...
Oh. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 15:57:00 -
[183] - Quote
I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
127
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:00:00 -
[184] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: Kind of a catch-22
I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part
This explains why you were screaming on these very forums a mere three weeks ago begging people to compress instead of refine. Oh... Oh.
Some attempts at education were more hostile than others, some more subtle
In the end it has worked it self out
No matter what, in the end, I am only hated by half the blue donut, not by hi sec miners
I haven't even remotely slowed production, matter of fact, it has kind of increased. Teams have lowered overall prices and business is good.
Hulkageddon, burn jita, Ice interdiction and luv squad aren't helping you much in the quest for ore huh?
I can't imagine how much pride was swallowed along with alot of other things to allow renters, now you have to go to the pubbies and get ore instead of ganking
HOLY FULL CIRCLE Batman |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:10:00 -
[185] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: Kind of a catch-22
I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part
This explains why you were screaming on these very forums a mere three weeks ago begging people to compress instead of refine. Oh... Oh. Some attempts at education were more hostile than others, some more subtle In the end it has worked it self out No matter what, in the end, I am only hated by half the blue donut, not by hi sec miners I haven't even remotely slowed production, matter of fact, it has kind of increased. Teams have lowered overall prices and business is good. Hulkageddon, burn jita, Ice interdiction and luv squad aren't helping you much in the quest for ore huh? I can't imagine how much pride was swallowed along with alot of other things to allow renters, now you have to go to the pubbies and get ore instead of ganking HOLY FULL CIRCLE Batman I always like these "goons have screwed themselves out of the highsec market" posts because they fly in full ignorance of the concept of neutral alts. This isn't really a new concept -- as the largest corporation in the game, and one of the most vilified, any Goonswarm Federation member you can shake an Ishtar at has a neutral alt for conducting business in empire, due to our repeated, sustained wardecs. If we need to do business with basically anyone, we do it via these neutral alts to avoid wardecs and our own reputation. Who's to say we aren't doing what you're doing already?
And, yes, before you ask, I want station compression despite this. Cutting off your nose to spite your face is romantic and all, but it's, frankly, kinda stupid. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3794
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:32:00 -
[186] - Quote
Querns wrote:I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise.
Not a fan, really. It pretty much makes the compression POS module pointless.
(In case people think I'm just being negative, I'm looking for arguments why that's not the case, or why it's not an important case. Consider me a devil's advocate) Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:42:00 -
[187] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Querns wrote:I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise. Not a fan, really. It pretty much makes the compression POS module pointless. (In case people think I'm just being negative, I'm looking for arguments why that's not the case, or why it's not an important case. Consider me a devil's advocate) I respect that. Don't worry about it -- I can tell the difference between differing opinions and antagonism. :)
Allowing the orca to compress moves the compression out of the starbase and into the (highsec) belt, where it can be disrupted (by bumping) and suicide ganked. An orca is also a sight more expensive than a small starbase -- you can run a starbase for several months before the orca is the cheaper option, and this doesn't include offlining the starbase to conserve fuel when you aren't using its services. The orca is also significantly more skill-intensive than a starbase -- starbases require Anchoring III and an orca requires several months of training. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2206
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:46:00 -
[188] - Quote
Firvain wrote: So im recruiting miners, anyone wants to mine some veldspar in 0.0 belts feel free to mail me!
Good luck finding people willing to pay $10 so they can mine 0.0 for CFC.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3794
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:50:00 -
[189] - Quote
Well, /sitting/ in an orca is now, iirc about 17 days.
That is a point though.
It'd be interesting if you need the ore processing skills at some level to be able to compress it. Though that may be a degree of complexity which is taking it too far.
One thing it would do is /massively/ increase linger time in highsec belts, as there'd be next to no need to offload the ore. An orca would be able to hold the equivalent of 50 million units of Veld in just its ore bay. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
129
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:53:00 -
[190] - Quote
If you are going to allow compression in station or in an Orca, why not just have it mined compressed, just shows up in your ore hold as compressed
This way there will be zero thought required
BTW: For the thick and goons, that above was a joke
It is good the way it is, a nice balance between 3 different things
Do i sell ore? Do i refine and sell minerals? (This requires quite a bit of skills, and an implant to be effective) Do i compress and sell compressed? (This requires some effort)
Each one has a boundary to entry except the raw ore, it is a very nice progression and makes a lot of sense |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:57:00 -
[191] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Well, /sitting/ in an orca is now, iirc about 17 days. That is a point though. It'd be interesting if you need the ore processing skills at some level to be able to compress it. Though that may be a degree of complexity which is taking it too far. One thing it would do is /massively/ increase linger time in highsec belts, as there'd be next to no need to offload the ore. An orca would be able to hold the equivalent of 50 million units of Veld in just its ore bay. Eh, yeah, true -- I was looking at one of my EFT plans, which was, hilariously enough, for an orca with links and decent drone skills. :V
Don't forget that the Industrial Core has its own skill requirements (about two weeks worth) and consumes Heavy Water during every siege cycle. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
39
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:12:00 -
[192] - Quote
So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3794
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:14:00 -
[193] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change?
I wouldn't say no-one (but goons) wants to change compression. Items 2 and 3 on the initial list are ones I'm fairly happy with.
Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:15:00 -
[194] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change? There were folks in the thread that weren't goons who approved of the idea.
You're mistaking a volume of posts by a minority of people as "nobody." This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
129
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:17:00 -
[195] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change? I wouldn't say no-one (but goons) wants to change compression. Items 2 and 3 on the initial list are ones I'm fairly happy with.
IF something has to change, those are the 2, although i would rather let it go a bit longer - maybe 8-12 weeks
As long as compression doesn't end up in Orca or Station.... |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:24:00 -
[196] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change?
I think it's pretty clear that the only intelligent opposition to the idea comes from a bare handful of players, mostly Kenneth Feld and to a certain degree Steve. The majority of the opposition comes from the barely-literate crowd who have only really puzzled out that because goons want something, they oppose it. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:29:00 -
[197] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:If you are going to allow compression in station or in an Orca, why not just have it mined compressed, just shows up in your ore hold as compressed
This way there will be zero thought required
BTW: For the thick and goons, that above was a joke Because then compression still requires a reasonable amount of cooperation (and, unlike pos compression, offers PvP opportunities).
I fully understand wanting the game to be as obtuse and difficult as possible when you've figured out the way through the obtuseness and wish to protect your competitive advantage by keeping that barrier up. But that's not a reasonable argument that this is good game design, which still has not been made. Having people warp a freighter to a POS and back provides no useful content for anyone: it is make-work. The POS never has anything of value in it worth attacking. The freighter is always within a docking ring or pos shields.
What's the value here, besides that other people are less likely to jump through these machoistic hoops? |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:31:00 -
[198] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote: Hulkageddon, burn jita, Ice interdiction and luv squad aren't helping you much in the quest for ore huh?
I can't imagine how much pride was swallowed along with alot of other things to allow renters, now you have to go to the pubbies and get ore instead of ganking
HOLY FULL CIRCLE Batman
fortunately, thanks to winning B-R, we have not needed to kowtow to the peasants of eve in the hopes they will give us enough dirt scratched out of the ground to replace our losses :v: |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:31:00 -
[199] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change? I think it's pretty clear that the only intelligent opposition to the idea comes from a bare handful of players, mostly Kenneth Feld and to a certain degree Steve. The majority of the opposition comes from the barely-literate crowd who have only really puzzled out that because goons want something, they oppose it.
You guys should come up with a macro where you can press F1 on the forums and agree with what Querns says. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:34:00 -
[200] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:If you are going to allow compression in station or in an Orca, why not just have it mined compressed, just shows up in your ore hold as compressed
This way there will be zero thought required
BTW: For the thick and goons, that above was a joke Because then compression still requires a reasonable amount of cooperation (and, unlike pos compression, offers PvP opportunities). I fully understand wanting the game to be as obtuse and difficult as possible when you've figured out the way through the obtuseness and wish to protect your competitive advantage by keeping that barrier up. But that's not a reasonable argument that this is good game design, which still has not been made. Having people warp a freighter to a POS and back provides no useful content for anyone: it is make-work. The POS never has anything of value in it worth attacking. The freighter is always within a docking ring or pos shields. What's the value here, besides that other people are less likely to jump through these machoistic hoops?
Shouldn't all of this been thought of before you guys insisted that CCP change the game to make the high sec peasants work for you? It is a little late to think things through when you are standing there with egg on your face. |
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:36:00 -
[201] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:CFC line members to HTFU and start training some mining skills
Again, a ton of Grr Goon and not enough people actually thinking before they type.
Let me recap the issues for people that haven't read the first few pages:
Ore Supply in Null
- Nullsec is already mining a large amount of ore via Industrial Upgrade Ore Anomalies
- The existing ore anomalies are very top heavy- meaning that they have a huge quantity of high end minerals and not a huge quantity of low end minerals (see: zyd/mega prices)
- There isn't "infinite" ore of a specific type, because each belt must be 100% mined out before it respawns
- Mining in actual belts in nullsec is much worse isk/hour than mining in empire because of aforementioned mineral prices
- There is a severe shortage of mexallon (and some isogen) in nullsec belts; meanwhile, there is a crushingly imbalanced surplus of high end minerals
Filling the Gap
- In order to fill the Mex gap, we currently need to import from high sec
- The nerf to modules means that a significant source of minerals was nerfed across the board
- A considerable portion of high sec miners don't compress their ore, and instead refine it directly in high sec stations. This reduces the pre-Crius supply even further because of the reduced efficiency of High Sec stations
- As soon as ore is refined into minerals, there is no way to get it into a compressed - "easy to move" - format, without taking a gigantic loss.
- A great number of miners in high sec don't read forums, don't do math (as shown by vocal posters in other threads in S&I), and therefore don't compress their ore for additional profit.
- Additionally, there is a barrier to entry for compression in high sec, which some miners assume is too high to enter the compressed market space
Therefore- the compressed market was severely hit post Crius. The mineral supply issue has always been a problem, but was being staunched by being able to import minerals via modules. The current state of supply in nullsec is imbalanced to the point that is going to continue to crash the high end markets- production has considerably slowed in null, reducing the relative demand for all minerals (but especially high ends).
The difference between the CFC comments and the random empire alts in this thread is that we are making a concerted effort to create a local T1 marketplace in nullsec. We are not speaking as individual producers with the argument of "I can import minerals for my own production just fine, HTFU". The intent of Crius is to spread industry to create additional, localized, hubs- something that is not currently possible (logical) with the basic mineral supply mechanics.
People that are crying GRR Goons need to realize that if changes are made to supply in null, that would only be beneficial to you, as you'd have more targets to come roam and kill. Otherwise, we could just keep living off of rental and moon goo income with no way for you to affect it. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2206
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:42:00 -
[202] - Quote
My spies tell me that Mittens is so upset at the Goon tears he will be logging in for the first time in a year and leading mining fleets to farm Veldspar. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Strawberries'n Carnage
Elessar Recruitment and Training Division
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:48:00 -
[203] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:Strawberries'n Carnage wrote:then that is a huge reason that more people are not doing it, the compressed ores are still referring to the old method which seems very unprofitable. If it is true that the in game information is still referencing the old way to compress ore, then that is a big bug that needs to be fixed quickly. I honestly have not looked recently. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Reprocessing#CompressionEve University's website is updated. Compression is dead simple: Online your POS. Online your Compression Array. Dump your ore in the compression array. Right click your ore and choose compress. Compression is instant. It requires no blueprints and no skills. 100 units of ore become 1 unit of compressed ore. That makes it very easy to quickly see how much profit you are making from each batch of raw ore. Just slide the decimal point. The worst part is hassling with the POS interface if you have never run one before.
I was fighting with Google searching for anything that was about refining and compressing and current and I must have missed this, definitely a great help. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:54:00 -
[204] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote: Shouldn't all of this been thought of before you guys insisted that CCP change the game to make the high sec peasants work for you? It is a little late to think things through when you are standing there with egg on your face.
We thought all this through and posted as much when the change was announced, but reserved judgment to see how the market adapted and if highsec was a little brighter than we gave it credit for. Our initial pessimism about the intelligence of the highsec miner has been proven correct, and the market demonstrates that.
The many worthless highsec miners we have squashed over the years can bleat all they want, but the facts are incontestable. Ore compression isn't working as intended and the market shows that. As a result, the loudest screams against our calm, reasoned pointing out of the facts are basically monkeys throwing poop everywhere in an effort to distract from those facts. That you neither saw nor understood those posts is not a problem for us.
What the market is doing can be verified by anyone. Compressed veldspar somewhat exists. But the compressed ore market is badly broken, and the behavior it incentivizes to fix it is unfun solo activity that creates no content for anyone. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:55:00 -
[205] - Quote
this thread is reminding me though why it's so great to whip the lash at highsec
we gotta do that some more, it's been a little while since we ground our boot in highsec's face and taught them who their masters are |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:57:00 -
[206] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:CFC line members to HTFU and start training some mining skills Again, a ton of Grr Goon and not enough people actually thinking before they type. Let me recap the issues for people that haven't read the first few pages: Ore Supply in Null
- Nullsec is already mining a large amount of ore via Industrial Upgrade Ore Anomalies
- The existing ore anomalies are very top heavy- meaning that they have a huge quantity of high end minerals and not a huge quantity of low end minerals (see: zyd/mega prices)
- There isn't "infinite" ore of a specific type, because each belt must be 100% mined out before it respawns
- Mining in actual belts in nullsec is much worse isk/hour than mining in empire because of aforementioned mineral prices
- There is a severe shortage of mexallon (and some isogen) in nullsec belts; meanwhile, there is a crushingly imbalanced surplus of high end minerals
Filling the Gap
- In order to fill the Mex gap, we currently need to import from high sec
- The nerf to modules means that a significant source of minerals was nerfed across the board
- A considerable portion of high sec miners don't compress their ore, and instead refine it directly in high sec stations. This reduces the pre-Crius supply even further because of the reduced efficiency of High Sec stations
- As soon as ore is refined into minerals, there is no way to get it into a compressed - "easy to move" - format, without taking a gigantic loss.
- A great number of miners in high sec don't read forums, don't do math (as shown by vocal posters in other threads in S&I), and therefore don't compress their ore for additional profit.
- Additionally, there is a barrier to entry for compression in high sec, which some miners assume is too high to enter the compressed market space
Therefore- the compressed market was severely hit post Crius. The mineral supply issue has always been a problem, but was being staunched by being able to import minerals via modules. The current state of supply in nullsec is imbalanced to the point that is going to continue to crash the high end markets- production has considerably slowed in null, reducing the relative demand for all minerals (but especially high ends). The difference between the CFC comments and the random empire alts in this thread is that we are making a concerted effort to create a local T1 marketplace in nullsec. We are not speaking as individual producers with the argument of "I can import minerals for my own production just fine, HTFU". The intent of Crius is to spread industry to create additional, localized, hubs- something that is not currently possible (logical) with the basic mineral supply mechanics. People that are crying GRR Goons need to realize that if changes are made to supply in null, that would only be beneficial to you, as you'd have more targets to come roam and kill. Otherwise, we could just keep living off of rental and moon goo income with no way for you to affect it.
I read that and simply didn't care. But let me recap for you since you can't seem to read either....all of that should have been thought of before you cried to CCP to get the system changed. We get it, Goons can't get enough low end ore. It isn't that we don't understand the problem, the way the game works or anything else, it is that we don't care. You guys approved of these changes and made troll post after troll post on this very forum about how high sec folks were going to break their backs for you. Now that things aren't working out, you expect us to care. We don't. No one really does except for you and your five forum alts.
|
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2206
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:02:00 -
[207] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:this thread is reminding me though why it's so great to whip the lash at highsec
we gotta do that some more, it's been a little while since we ground our boot in highsec's face and taught them who their masters are
Will you come with the max yield exhumer bots that you run in dullsec?
I hope so, just got a new shipment of cats. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:02:00 -
[208] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change? I think it's pretty clear that the only intelligent opposition to the idea comes from a bare handful of players, mostly Kenneth Feld and to a certain degree Steve. The majority of the opposition comes from the barely-literate crowd who have only really puzzled out that because goons want something, they oppose it.
Truth be told, people are lazy. This is why they refine instead of compress (and the associated hauling) despite the loss of income This is why many will ask for compression at a station Giving in to the lazy doesn't necessarily make things better
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:04:00 -
[209] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote: I read that and simply didn't care. But let me recap for you since you can't seem to read either....all of that should have been thought of before you cried to CCP to get the system changed. We get it, Goons can't get enough low end ore. It isn't that we don't understand the problem, the way the game works or anything else, it is that we don't care. You guys approved of these changes and made troll post after troll post on this very forum about how high sec folks were going to break their backs for you. Now that things aren't working out, you expect us to care. We don't. No one really does except for you and your five forum alts.
How, exactly, did we "cry to CCP to get the system changed" in the first place? Changing compression wasn't our idea. It hit us pretty much out of left field, actually. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:09:00 -
[210] - Quote
Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
|
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:10:00 -
[211] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote: Shouldn't all of this been thought of before you guys insisted that CCP change the game to make the high sec peasants work for you? It is a little late to think things through when you are standing there with egg on your face.
We thought all this through and posted as much when the change was announced, but reserved judgment to see how the market adapted and if highsec was a little brighter than we gave it credit for. Our initial pessimism about the intelligence of the highsec miner has been proven correct, and the market demonstrates that. The many worthless highsec miners we have squashed over the years can bleat all they want, but the facts are incontestable. Ore compression isn't working as intended and the market shows that. As a result, the loudest screams against our calm, reasoned pointing out of the facts are basically monkeys throwing poop everywhere in an effort to distract from those facts. That you neither saw nor understood those posts is not a problem for us. What the market is doing can be verified by anyone. Compressed veldspar somewhat exists. But the compressed ore market is badly broken, and the behavior it incentivizes to fix it is unfun solo activity that creates no content for anyone.
I like this part of the narrative where compressed veldspar doesn't exist, yet there are ten million units on the market for sale right now in Jita.
Or is this whole thing supposed to be a ten page whine about pricing? |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:11:00 -
[212] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
I read that and simply didn't care. But let me recap for you since you can't seem to read either....all of that should have been thought of before you cried to CCP to get the system changed. We get it, Goons can't get enough low end ore. It isn't that we don't understand the problem, the way the game works or anything else, it is that we don't care. You guys approved of these changes and made troll post after troll post on this very forum about how high sec folks were going to break their backs for you. Now that things aren't working out, you expect us to care. We don't. No one really does except for you and your five forum alts.
ok dinsdale, i will be sure to remember that when feeding ccp their orders at our next nullsec cabal meeting |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:13:00 -
[213] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Compressed veldspar somewhat exists. I like this part of the narrative where compressed veldspar doesn't exist, yet there are ten million units on the market for sale right now in Jita.
Mr Omniblivion wrote: Again, a ton of Grr Goon and not enough people actually thinking before they type. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:18:00 -
[214] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
I read that and simply didn't care. But let me recap for you since you can't seem to read either....all of that should have been thought of before you cried to CCP to get the system changed. We get it, Goons can't get enough low end ore. It isn't that we don't understand the problem, the way the game works or anything else, it is that we don't care. You guys approved of these changes and made troll post after troll post on this very forum about how high sec folks were going to break their backs for you. Now that things aren't working out, you expect us to care. We don't. No one really does except for you and your five forum alts.
ok dinsdale, i will be sure to remember that when feeding ccp their orders at our next nullsec cabal meeting
I didn't picture it as a meeting honestly, I thought it was more like a pajama party pillow fight type of thing. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1208
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:35:00 -
[215] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:The reason the Retriever and Mackinaw are so popular is because they have built-in haulers, so in a small group you aren't spending a character on logistics overhead. Everyone can mine. That popularity points to a lack of interest among miners for logistics ships generally. Um, no. The Retriever and Mackinaw are popular because you don't have to jetcan mine and risk being can-flipped. It's not because miners think industrial ships are icky.
Whoosh!
The point is below a fleet of a certain size--and high sec has many of these--a dedicated industrial pilot doesn't make sense. "Icky" has nothing to do with it.
The inability to can-flip is also nice, of course, except that it's been replaced by straight ganks. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2206
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:46:00 -
[216] - Quote
Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with?
Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:50:00 -
[217] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. So, should no man in Eve: Online, a spaceship game, ever deign to attempt to better their own position in this manner? How deep does the cognitive dissonance run? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 19:04:00 -
[218] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying.
Asking for changes that make it easier for high sec miners to get their ore to market at a higher price than the refined minerals sure is selfish of us. |
HarlyQ
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 19:09:00 -
[219] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
I read that and simply didn't care. But let me recap for you since you can't seem to read either....all of that should have been thought of before you cried to CCP to get the system changed. We get it, Goons can't get enough low end ore. It isn't that we don't understand the problem, the way the game works or anything else, it is that we don't care. You guys approved of these changes and made troll post after troll post on this very forum about how high sec folks were going to break their backs for you. Now that things aren't working out, you expect us to care. We don't. No one really does except for you and your five forum alts.
ok dinsdale, i will be sure to remember that when feeding ccp their orders at our next nullsec cabal meeting I didn't picture it as a meeting honestly, I thought it was more like a pajama party pillow fight type of thing.
I need more popcorn for your post's and butter. also we do not use hulks EFFORT we use mackinaws easier to isbox mine with. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2206
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 19:10:00 -
[220] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. So, should no man in Eve: Online, a spaceship game, ever deign to attempt to better their own position in this manner? How deep does the cognitive dissonance run?
Yes exactly. The most powerful players should in fact only propose ideas that challenge their position. Maybe its something people will figure out before subs drop another 25%. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 19:12:00 -
[221] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Yes exactly. The most powerful players should in fact only propose ideas that challenge their position. Maybe its something people will figure out before subs drop another 25%. This is a pretty hilarious concept. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 19:14:00 -
[222] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. all changes that make EVE Online a better game benefit us because as the Overmen we will maintain our position of dominance regardless of the changes, but the better the game is the more we enjoy playing it in addition to the enjoyment we always get of being gods among cattle |
Dramaticus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
601
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 19:29:00 -
[223] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. So, should no man in Eve: Online, a spaceship game, ever deign to attempt to better their own position in this manner? How deep does the cognitive dissonance run? Yes exactly. The most powerful players should in fact only propose ideas that challenge their position. Maybe its something people will figure out before subs drop another 25%.
The scraps of our table are your reward. The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal
The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them |
Wopasi
Wicoti
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:03:00 -
[224] - Quote
If the given supply of a product cannot meet the current demand, then the general response is the price increases. As the price increases this gives other suppliers the incentive to increase the volume of the product in demand. Eventually the supply of product and the accepted value of that product will somewhat stabilize.
It may not be happening fast enough, but it will eventually. Now this is Eve so the opportunities to screw over each other, set up a cartel, manipulate the price, or just be a **** are endless.
Offer more isk for what you want and the market will respond.
|
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
213
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:19:00 -
[225] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Whoosh!
The point is below a fleet of a certain size--and high sec has many of these--a dedicated industrial pilot doesn't make sense. "Icky" has nothing to do with it.
The inability to can-flip is also nice, of course, except that it's been replaced by straight ganks. You should try reading your own posts:
Dersen Lowery wrote:Unfortunately (fortunately?), you can't put a POS in an ore bay, which means that the pop-up POS posited in this thread is going to be used exclusively by larger and more organized corps. The point has nothing to do with a dedicated industrial pilot, because you don't need a dedicated industrial pilot to throw up a POS. Anyone with any faction's indy ship trained to 1 can do it, and they can switch out to a miner after its up.
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Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2207
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:41:00 -
[226] - Quote
Wopasi wrote:If the given supply of a product cannot meet the current demand, then the general response is the price increases. As the price increases this gives other suppliers the incentive to increase the volume of the product in demand. Eventually the supply of product and the accepted value of that product will somewhat stabilize.
It may not be happening fast enough, but it will eventually. Now this is Eve so the opportunities to screw over each other, set up a cartel, manipulate the price, or just be a **** are endless.
Offer more isk for what you want and the market will respond.
You can assume they're having financial difficulties, hence the need to cry to CCP and highsec miners for help. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:47:00 -
[227] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. Asking for changes that make it easier for high sec miners to get their ore to market at a higher price than the refined minerals sure is selfish of us.
How noble of you to ask for something that means the price of compressed ore goes down, profit margins fall and you get cheaper ore. Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:49:00 -
[228] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. Asking for changes that make it easier for high sec miners to get their ore to market at a higher price than the refined minerals sure is selfish of us. How noble of you to ask for something that means the price of compressed ore goes down, profit margins fall and you get cheaper ore. Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. Your understanding of supply is laughably naive. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:51:00 -
[229] - Quote
Sentamon wrote: You can assume they're having financial difficulties, hence the need to cry to CCP and highsec miners for help.
Ah, yes -- the mark of one who is completely outside of their ability to participate in a debate -- deriding the individuals so debating as "crying." This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:58:00 -
[230] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Wopasi wrote:If the given supply of a product cannot meet the current demand, then the general response is the price increases. As the price increases this gives other suppliers the incentive to increase the volume of the product in demand. Eventually the supply of product and the accepted value of that product will somewhat stabilize.
It may not be happening fast enough, but it will eventually. Now this is Eve so the opportunities to screw over each other, set up a cartel, manipulate the price, or just be a **** are endless.
Offer more isk for what you want and the market will respond.
You can assume they're having financial difficulties, hence the need to cry to CCP and highsec miners for help.
I have no sympathy for someone who is too lazy to mine veldspar and has to pay 20 ISK a unit for it. The price difference sounds like a convenience fee. I like the story about how scarce veldspar is in null sec myself, yet if you fly around out there, there is system after system of completely empty sov space with literally THOUSANDS of belts that are never touched.
This whole thing is an amusing fairy tale for sure. |
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GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:07:00 -
[231] - Quote
Querns wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. Asking for changes that make it easier for high sec miners to get their ore to market at a higher price than the refined minerals sure is selfish of us. How noble of you to ask for something that means the price of compressed ore goes down, profit margins fall and you get cheaper ore. Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. Your understanding of supply is laughably naive.
Yet my comment about the supply of compressed ore in Jita stands. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:08:00 -
[232] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there.
As of this post, there are just over 200k units of compressed Kernite on sell orders across all the major markets (priced at roughly 36k per unit). There are already over 800k units on buy orders at roughly 30k per unit.
Shoogie wrote: 100 Kernite = 26048.00 isk. Refined = 97.016 trit, 193.308 mex, 97.016 iso = 23693.19 isk (9.0% loss) Compressed = 29578.35 isk (13.6% profit)
30k buys are already at a 13.6% profit over ore price (26.6% more profitable than mineral prices). These profit margins are huge- the "pay more" mentality is already in effect here- these are some of the best margins in the game for mining, yet the ore is still not getting to market.
The sells that are up there are at roughly 36k per unit. That's 38.2% more than the ore price and 51.9% more than the price of the minerals in the ore. These aren't being bought out because it is cheaper to ship individual minerals rather than buy the ore at those prices.
There is clearly an issue here, and "you need to pay more" is not it. |
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
82
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:11:00 -
[233] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. all changes that make EVE Online a better game benefit us because as the Overmen we will maintain our position of dominance regardless of the changes, but the better the game is the more we enjoy playing it in addition to the enjoyment we always get of being gods among cattle
Aaand you just made my mind up..I was about to buy a pos and array.
But there is no way i'm going to compress and sell to you lot now.
I'll take the minute hit in lost revenue (and a lot less hassle) cheers.
Isn't there a song about true colours? If not there should be.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:12:00 -
[234] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote: Yet my comment about the supply of compressed ore in Jita stands.
Not really.
Imagine the total output of all mining in eve in one bag. A percentage of this ore is compressed and sold, either on the market or privately. A second percentage is sold raw, both on the market and privately. The third -- and I really need you to pay attention because this is the important part -- does not hit the market at all; it gets refined in place and ends up as useless minerals.
That third part is the part I want to convert to either of the first two parts. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:18:00 -
[235] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. all changes that make EVE Online a better game benefit us because as the Overmen we will maintain our position of dominance regardless of the changes, but the better the game is the more we enjoy playing it in addition to the enjoyment we always get of being gods among cattle Aaand you just made my mind up..I was about to buy a pos and array. But there is no way i'm going to compress and sell to you lot now. I'll take the minute hit in lost revenue (and a lot less hassle) cheers. Isn't there a song about true colours? If not there should be. Enjoy your tedium.
If it's any consolation, even if you were selling compressed ore, there'd be no way for you to know if you were selling it to us or not. Neutral alts are magical. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
133
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:18:00 -
[236] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. As of this post, there are just over 200k units of compressed Kernite on sell orders across all the major markets (priced at roughly 36k per unit). There are already over 800k units on buy orders at roughly 30k per unit. Shoogie wrote: 100 Kernite = 26048.00 isk. Refined = 97.016 trit, 193.308 mex, 97.016 iso = 23693.19 isk (9.0% loss) Compressed = 29578.35 isk (13.6% profit)
30k buys are already at a 13.6% profit over ore price (26.6% more profitable than mineral prices). These profit margins are huge- the "pay more" mentality is already in effect here- these are some of the best margins in the game for mining, yet the ore is still not getting to market. The sells that are up there are at roughly 36k per unit. That's 38.2% more than the ore price and 51.9% more than the price of the minerals in the ore. These aren't being bought out because it is cheaper to ship individual minerals rather than buy the ore at those prices. There is clearly an issue here, and "you need to pay more" is not it.
Has it crossed your minds that some people have gone out and found large mining corps and made direct deals with them, totally cut Jita out of the loop?
In that sense, yes, the ore is not coming to the JITA market, but it is getting mined and sold/bought.
I get roughly a titans worth of minerals every 3 days with NO TROUBLES, NONE, zero, zilch
Again, you can't sit in Jita and whine, you have to go out there and get it.
This patch was just a way for me to test a theory and it has paid off for me big time, you are lazy and unimaginative, you will wither and die in Jita. Maybe I'll bring some ore by later and fill a few buy orders and give you a thrill! |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2207
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:19:00 -
[237] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. all changes that make EVE Online a better game benefit us because as the Overmen we will maintain our position of dominance regardless of the changes, but the better the game is the more we enjoy playing it in addition to the enjoyment we always get of being gods among cattle Aaand you just made my mind up..I was about to buy a pos and array. But there is no way i'm going to compress and sell to you lot now. I'll take the minute hit in lost revenue (and a lot less hassle) cheers. Isn't there a song about true colours? If not there should be.
Every highsec miner needs to read this thread. You can bet the vast majority will do the same. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:21:00 -
[238] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. As of this post, there are just over 200k units of compressed Kernite on sell orders across all the major markets (priced at roughly 36k per unit). There are already over 800k units on buy orders at roughly 30k per unit. Shoogie wrote: 100 Kernite = 26048.00 isk. Refined = 97.016 trit, 193.308 mex, 97.016 iso = 23693.19 isk (9.0% loss) Compressed = 29578.35 isk (13.6% profit)
30k buys are already at a 13.6% profit over ore price (26.6% more profitable than mineral prices). These profit margins are huge- the "pay more" mentality is already in effect here- these are some of the best margins in the game for mining, yet the ore is still not getting to market. The sells that are up there are at roughly 36k per unit. That's 38.2% more than the ore price and 51.9% more than the price of the minerals in the ore. These aren't being bought out because it is cheaper to ship individual minerals rather than buy the ore at those prices. There is clearly an issue here, and "you need to pay more" is not it.
Those aren't even close to the best margins, kernite is a big waste of time. Put up some buy orders at a 50% margin and let's see if they get filled. I can buy millions of units of Kernite at 300 a unit right now, put up an order at 450 a unit and stop being so stingy with your money. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:21:00 -
[239] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Has it crossed your minds that some people have gone out and found large mining corps and made direct deals with them, totally cut Jita out of the loop?
In that sense, yes, the ore is not coming to the JITA market, but it is getting mined and sold/bought.
I get roughly a titans worth of minerals every 3 days with NO TROUBLES, NONE, zero, zilch
Again, you can't sit in Jita and whine, you have to go out there and get it.
This patch was just a way for me to test a theory and it has paid off for me big time, you are lazy and unimaginative, you will wither and die in Jita. Maybe I'll bring some ore by later and fill a few buy orders and give you a thrill! You misunderstand -- we're just as capable of doing this as you are. Remember -- neutral alts. We just also want the process to be easier overall. We can do both; it's okay. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to want things to be easier. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:22:00 -
[240] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Every highsec miner needs to read this thread. You can bet the vast majority will do the same. Heh -- if highsec miners read the forums, they'd know to compress in the first place. The whole point of my ideas is to reach people who don't read the forums. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
|
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
134
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:24:00 -
[241] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Has it crossed your minds that some people have gone out and found large mining corps and made direct deals with them, totally cut Jita out of the loop?
In that sense, yes, the ore is not coming to the JITA market, but it is getting mined and sold/bought.
I get roughly a titans worth of minerals every 3 days with NO TROUBLES, NONE, zero, zilch
Again, you can't sit in Jita and whine, you have to go out there and get it.
This patch was just a way for me to test a theory and it has paid off for me big time, you are lazy and unimaginative, you will wither and die in Jita. Maybe I'll bring some ore by later and fill a few buy orders and give you a thrill! You misunderstand -- we're just as capable of doing this as you are. Remember -- neutral alts. We just also want the process to be easier overall. We can do both; it's okay. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to want things to be easier.
My goal is to FORCE you to do this
|
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
134
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:25:00 -
[242] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. all changes that make EVE Online a better game benefit us because as the Overmen we will maintain our position of dominance regardless of the changes, but the better the game is the more we enjoy playing it in addition to the enjoyment we always get of being gods among cattle Aaand you just made my mind up..I was about to buy a pos and array. But there is no way i'm going to compress and sell to you lot now. I'll take the minute hit in lost revenue (and a lot less hassle) cheers. Isn't there a song about true colours? If not there should be.
Contact me in game, we can make a deal, I promise it won't go to them, until it gets turned into Antimatter |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1517
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:31:00 -
[243] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote: Mining in actual belts in nullsec is much worse isk/hour than mining in empire because of aforementioned mineral prices
Outright lie that I've already debunked in this thread. Null static belts are worth more than High Sec belts.
Seriously, try harder with your propaganda, it's truly miserable this week. This is a blatant goon grab for their own benefit trying to disguise it as 'think of the highsec miner'. The current system is fine, it creates dynamic pressures in high sec relating to corps and choices that any miner in any space has to make. This is a good state of affairs. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:32:00 -
[244] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote: You misunderstand -- we're just as capable of doing this as you are. Remember -- neutral alts. We just also want the process to be easier overall. We can do both; it's okay. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to want things to be easier.
My goal is to FORCE you to do this Cutting off your nose to spite your face, eh? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:33:00 -
[245] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. As of this post, there are just over 200k units of compressed Kernite on sell orders across all the major markets (priced at roughly 36k per unit). There are already over 800k units on buy orders at roughly 30k per unit. Shoogie wrote: 100 Kernite = 26048.00 isk. Refined = 97.016 trit, 193.308 mex, 97.016 iso = 23693.19 isk (9.0% loss) Compressed = 29578.35 isk (13.6% profit)
30k buys are already at a 13.6% profit over ore price (26.6% more profitable than mineral prices). These profit margins are huge- the "pay more" mentality is already in effect here- these are some of the best margins in the game for mining, yet the ore is still not getting to market. The sells that are up there are at roughly 36k per unit. That's 38.2% more than the ore price and 51.9% more than the price of the minerals in the ore. These aren't being bought out because it is cheaper to ship individual minerals rather than buy the ore at those prices. There is clearly an issue here, and "you need to pay more" is not it. Has it crossed your minds that some people have gone out and found large mining corps and made direct deals with them, totally cut Jita out of the loop? In that sense, yes, the ore is not coming to the JITA market, but it is getting mined and sold/bought. I get roughly a titans worth of minerals every 3 days with NO TROUBLES, NONE, zero, zilch Again, you can't sit in Jita and whine, you have to go out there and get it. This patch was just a way for me to test a theory and it has paid off for me big time, you are lazy and unimaginative, you will wither and die in Jita. Maybe I'll bring some ore by later and fill a few buy orders and give you a thrill!
Sounds like you guys have it figured out. Above Jita pricing is the norm for these deals too, thus my telling the CFC lickspittles to pay more.
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:48:00 -
[246] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote: Mining in actual belts in nullsec is much worse isk/hour than mining in empire because of aforementioned mineral prices
Outright lie that I've already debunked in this thread. Null static belts are worth more than High Sec belts.
Belt composition (total isk value of a belt) and actually getting the ore to market (isk/hour) are two different things. Also, highsec gets a 25%+ bonus on compressed ore value by getting it to Jita; shipping out of 0.0 has a significant cost.
I can "infinitely respawn" our ore anomalies, does that mean that they make me "infinitely" more Isk/hr than hisec?
Sitting in a ship with a scanner is different than actually mining out an asteroid belt with a miner- the fact that anyone even suggests mining asteroid belts in null is laughable. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1518
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:11:00 -
[247] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Belt composition (total isk value of a belt) and actually getting the ore to market (isk/hour) are two different things. Also, highsec gets a 25%+ bonus on compressed ore value by getting it to Jita; shipping out of 0.0 has a significant cost.
I can "infinitely respawn" our ore anomalies, does that mean that they make me "infinitely" more Isk/hr than hisec?
Sitting in a ship with a scanner is different than actually mining out an asteroid belt with a miner- the fact that anyone even suggests mining asteroid belts in null is laughable.
Because they are so much higher risk than the anoms now that you can warp straight to them right? Errr. No. The Belts are no more risk than the anoms. Probably lower since people will normally assume you are in the anoms from habit anyway.
& Shipping out of 0.0? Wtf, why are you shipping out of 0.0. The whole complaint is that Null needs more low ends, so why would you ship your own low ends out of Null? You would use them locally, instead of buying at jita prices & then paying the shipping cost to IMPORT them.
Seriously, you are just inventing excuses here, or parroting the old arguments, when they are utterly inapplicable. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2207
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:21:00 -
[248] - Quote
Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:22:00 -
[249] - Quote
Sentamon wrote: Every highsec miner needs to read this thread. You can bet the vast majority will do the same.
hahahahaha good one, highsec miners don't even look at their clients let alone the forums |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:27:00 -
[250] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening. Public courier contracts have collateral options, allowing you to diversify hauling risk.
I think the 50%+ margin people in this thread seem entitled to having will cover a few million isk spent on courier fees. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:29:00 -
[251] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening. Work out the value you can move in a blockade runner of compressed ore. Then blink, work it out again. And consider not using a Freighter. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:29:00 -
[252] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:& Shipping out of 0.0? Wtf, why are you shipping out of 0.0.
Really, please stop trying to argue a side that you have no knowledge on- you clearly are out of your element. We have a gigantic surplus of high end ores, that is the issue.
Counting down until the thread gets locked because of all the grrgoon and lack of general intelligence in the opposing arguments.
|
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:33:00 -
[253] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote: My goal is to FORCE you to do this
come now, we're goons, i have a much better idea than THAT if it comes down to it
but lowering yourself to begging highsec miners for scraps of ore in exchange for you posting that pl respects them, have you no dignity |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:33:00 -
[254] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Really, please stop trying to argue a side that you have no knowledge on- you clearly are out of your element. We have a gigantic surplus of high end ores, that is the issue.
Counting down until the thread gets locked because of all the grrgoon and lack of general intelligence in the opposing arguments.
Please train reading comprehension to at least 1. I am talking about the more voluminous Low ends & Mid ends (Including stuff like that really valuable Jaspet) which are in the Static Belts, not the ABC's in the Industrial Anomalies. |
Wopasi
Wicoti
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:40:00 -
[255] - Quote
If you have too many high ends, then lower the market costs of high ends and pay more for low-ends. Flip the market based on a new alignment of mineral value.
Your machine requires more resources than you can acquire to keep it running. Since you cannot enslave the local population to work for you, acquiring more space will not solve the problem. Diplomacy to get others to cooperate with you will be problematic, your are Goons and have made the burden you carry.
So if neither military conquest nor diplomacy will work and if CCP will not change the game mechanics in your favor then you can either be patient until the market corrects (possible if those who hunt you share your problems) or declare economic war and disrupt the mineral market.
|
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
136
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:42:00 -
[256] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: My goal is to FORCE you to do this
come now, we're goons, i have a much better idea than THAT if it comes down to it but lowering yourself to begging highsec miners for scraps of ore in exchange for you posting that pl respects them, have you no dignity
Screw Dignity, I have ORE
Lots of it |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2207
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:42:00 -
[257] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening. Work out the value you can move in a blockade runner of compressed ore. Then blink, work it out again. And consider not using a Freighter.
I wouldn't take a blockage runner or anything else filled with ore to Jita these days. Now that I really think about it, mining ore for anything but a local highsec producer is incredibly stupid and wasteful. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
136
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:44:00 -
[258] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening.
freighter loads of high sec barely tops 400 mil
Anyway, I bring in freighters, setup a pos, compress and jump out, all in about an hour or so
Small faction towers take 12 min to anchor and online, very little overall time
You act like this is my first rodeo |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2207
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:53:00 -
[259] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening. freighter loads of high sec barely tops 400 mil Anyway, I bring in freighters, setup a pos, compress and jump out, all in about an hour or so Small faction towers take 12 min to anchor and online, very little overall time You act like this is my first rodeo
The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
136
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 22:57:00 -
[260] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening. freighter loads of high sec barely tops 400 mil Anyway, I bring in freighters, setup a pos, compress and jump out, all in about an hour or so Small faction towers take 12 min to anchor and online, very little overall time You act like this is my first rodeo The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails.
If they are going to gank, fine, no worries
What i meant was the 400 mil in high sec ore isn't going to tip the scales and get them frothy at the mouth, there are plenty of other juicy options for them typically.
Again, if it is your time, so be it, but the ore won't tip the scale. |
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 23:09:00 -
[261] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails.
You should be fine, last I heard they were heading with MiniLuv to some systems where this PL guy has 12 frieghters and a titan moving raw ore.
Related to compression- actually making compression easier for the layman makes it safer for them to get their compressed ore to the market via blockade runners! Praise be the benevolent Goons for suggesting that we make it harder to gank ore shipments!
Edit: specifically, this one-
Querns wrote:Edit: After some, well, strenuous debate on the topic, a compromise has emerged that I think everyone can enjoy. Allow the Orca to fit the Industrial Core, giving it the ability to compress ore.
Industrial Core orca would not remove the use for compression towers- miners could decide if they wanted to park their orca at the belt to compress the ore (more risk and less cost) or simply haul ore to a POS to compress it there (less risk and more cost). |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 23:12:00 -
[262] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote: Related to compression- actually making compression easier for the layman makes it safer for them to get their compressed ore to the market via blockade runners! Praise be the benevolent Goons for suggesting that we make it harder to gank ore shipments!
Except of course, it actually makes it easier if people start bothering to target BR's. And it's nothing to do with your benevolence.
And it destroys the purpose of having a high sec corp. And of having a high sec POS.
So what you are actually doing is attacking High Sec game play for your own benefit.... Hey, what a surprise.
Ever stop to think that some of us don't fall for your tall tales about why you are doing things and can actually do the reasoning ourselves to work out what is going on. Especially when you disguise it as poorly as you have this time, and give such feeble excuses. At least normally you have a better disguise and misdirection going on. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 23:15:00 -
[263] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:So what you are actually doing is attacking High Sec game play for your own benefit.... Hey, what a surprise.
This is a serious question:
How is our proposal to make compression more accessible an "attack" on High Sec game play? So far, the only rebuttals that have been presented are "nullsec has more low end ore" and "it is fine as is because I'm making a xx% profit margin". |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
136
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 23:36:00 -
[264] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Sentamon wrote:The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails. You should be fine, last I heard they were heading with MiniLuv to some systems where this PL guy has 12 frieghters and a titan moving raw ore.
AMAMAKE II-1 Tribal something or other station
Stop by ANYTIME, I mean anytime
Bring friends
Stay a while, we will get you home quickly |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 23:51:00 -
[265] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
This is a serious question:
How is our proposal to make compression more accessible an "attack" on High Sec game play? So far, the only rebuttals that have been presented are "nullsec has more low end ore" and "it is fine as is because I'm making a xx% profit margin".
Because you are back to promoting solo game play, by removing one of the largest incentives I've seen for people in highsec to work together to mitigate the cost of a tower between an entire corp for compression. We need more factors which benefit a group working together, not less. So needing a POS to compress and a POS being hard for a solo pilot to operate are actually GOOD things, not bad things. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 00:42:00 -
[266] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:
This is a serious question:
How is our proposal to make compression more accessible an "attack" on High Sec game play? So far, the only rebuttals that have been presented are "nullsec has more low end ore" and "it is fine as is because I'm making a xx% profit margin".
Because you are back to promoting solo game play, by removing one of the largest incentives I've seen for people in highsec to work together to mitigate the cost of a tower between an entire corp for compression. We need more factors which benefit a group working together, not less. So needing a POS to compress and a POS being hard for a solo pilot to operate are actually GOOD things, not bad things.
So, out of all the issues you can think of, that's the one you go with.
Okay-
Your argument is that changing compression is a bad idea because sharing a POS for the compression module is revolutionary content in promoting people to work together, and that Goons are back to "promoting solo game play".
Rebuttal:
Querns wrote:Edit: After some, well, strenuous debate on the topic, a compromise has emerged that I think everyone can enjoy. Allow the Orca to fit the Industrial Core, giving it the ability to compress ore.
Giving the Orca a compression module would encourage miners to fleet together and engage in shooting asteroids as a fleet. This is a much more accessible solution than a POS, because the fleet of miners would then not be restricted to one system.
Also, as pointed out several times earlier in this thread, running a POS is exceptionally cheap and one person can easily manage a POS (see: almost every system in empire). Furthermore, as per your argument with sharing a POS, once the initial agreement is set up (and standings are set), miners are no longer encouraged to actually work together- an individual miner can just go to the POS, compress, and take that ore to the station.
Does anyone have an actual reason why implementing a change to compression is a bad idea? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 00:58:00 -
[267] - Quote
The Orca is accessible in 17 days. This does not encourage corps. Simply because you want to belittle an argument that runs counter to the goons does not make it invalid. Nor do you get to dismiss the requirements of a corp working together to keep a POS running.
Your entire argument is based on 'Goons need more compressed ore'. So yes, we've made plenty of arguments why this is a bad idea, and the only argument you have made to it being a good idea is 'Goons get more compressed ore' |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1579
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 01:32:00 -
[268] - Quote
As a funny aside. Sometimes we don't all share the same degree of enthusiasm for a change.
Myself, I don't actually think we need station compression this moment as I would like to see how this plays out more. I would like to see the higher yield variants rolled into a base compressed type though. Just to simplify the whole process. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1519
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 01:49:00 -
[269] - Quote
Aryth wrote: I would like to see the higher yield variants rolled into a base compressed type though. Just to simplify the whole process.
Now that change I can get behind.
Personally I'd go one step further and just roll it right in at the base level. So mining the +5% ore gives you 5% more yield than normal as it's easier to extract fast. Rather than a different variant that is richer. As that system allows for more subtle tweaks later without needing to create a new ore for the market. Since you can run the extra yield via variable on the object. And have that variable influenced by other factors as well.
Does come with the downside of ore holds filling faster also. But that might not be a bad thing overall since it does promote more team play in regards to haulers. If a little more micromanagement being a bad thing. 50/50? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1579
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 02:15:00 -
[270] - Quote
I really would love to see Courier contracts to POS somehow. Some sort of anchorable outside the shields invuln mod if you had to. Removing the worst component, M3 movement to your POS, could go a long way to turning this into a really niche profession. It also means a whole lot more things go boom in highsec POS kills.
That sounds like EVE to me. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
|
ELWhappo Sanchez
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 04:29:00 -
[271] - Quote
if your hauling to a pos to compress instead of your miners dropping to the pos while mining your doing it wrong. orca with compression would be great imo. |
Galen Dnari
Damage Unlimited
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 06:23:00 -
[272] - Quote
So I had a nice reply all crafted, which contained no html code. Then I made the mistake - I hit "Post". Says the forum software "you can't have html in your post!" and it trashed the whole thing. **** it. Nobody cares what I think anyway. http://eveboard.com/ub/1939472205-31.png |
Nex Killer
Drunk3n Warfare
82
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 07:18:00 -
[273] - Quote
Galen Dnari wrote:So I had a nice reply all crafted, which contained no html code. Then I made the mistake - I hit "Post". Says the forum software "you can't have html in your post!" and it trashed the whole thing. **** it. Nobody cares what I think anyway.
Nooo!!! I care! D: |
Nex Killer
Drunk3n Warfare
82
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 08:09:00 -
[274] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Querns wrote:I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise. Not a fan, really. It pretty much makes the compression POS module pointless. (In case people think I'm just being negative, I'm looking for arguments why that's not the case, or why it's not an important case. Consider me a devil's advocate)
Steve a Orca compressing while it is in belt would be the best thing ever! I mutlibox 15 ice miners, 1 Orca Booster and 1 Freighter and when I'm ready to compress about 100K ice it takes so dam long to haul back and forth from station to PoS with 3 freighters all max cargo moving the ice to the PoS. If I could compress it at the belt and then dock up and dump it at the station it would be so much of a help. CCP said the reason why they made the compress module is so that people could compress in highsec and I asked them many times why don't they just make it so the Orca could compress and not make some PoS module and none of the ever replied. I even made a thread here on the Science & Industry area on the fourms and it just got locked once it hit the second page: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4374920
Mr Omniblivion wrote:People that are crying GRR Goons need to realize that if changes are made to supply in null, that would only be beneficial to you, as you'd have more targets to come roam and kill. Otherwise, we could just keep living off of rental and moon goo income with no way for you to affect it.
If you can't keep living off what you have now because of how compress works now then you don't have the right to own that space anymore and maybe someone that can live there will take your place.
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Industrial Core orca would not remove the use for compression towers- miners could decide if they wanted to park their orca at the belt to compress the ore (more risk and less cost) or simply haul ore to a POS to compress it there (less risk and more cost).
How is compressing in a belt more risk? A Orca has about 424K EHP unhearted about 100K than a freighter. Is it the core that takes 5mins todo a cycle? Okay half that to only be 2.5mins.
Querns wrote:Does anyone have an actual reason why implementing a change to compression is a bad idea?
Yes you are killing a mini profession that was created. People and friends are coming together to lunch and run a PoS to spend countless hours moving from station to station collecting the ore that they bought from stations and then spending time moving it to a PoS and compressing it and then once again moving it to a trade hub to for their profit.
I'm not trying to make a Grr Goon post but you guys are forcing people do it. You are crying because you don't want to buy the compressed ore at the prices they are at now and what the prices lower because you are already spending 50% more in jump fuel because of that change and want lower prices on the materials . I get it. But the people spending the time on compressing the ore are the ones that get to make post what they want for the ore, not you the buyers. Their the ones that spend countless hours compressing that ore for you to buy and they have to right to sell it at what they want to and not what you want it for. |
Valedictio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 09:04:00 -
[275] - Quote
Querns wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote: Yet my comment about the supply of compressed ore in Jita stands.
Not really. Imagine the total output of all mining in eve in one bag. A percentage of this ore is compressed and sold, either on the market or privately. A second percentage is sold raw, both on the market and privately. The third -- and I really need you to pay attention because this is the important part -- does not hit the market at all; it gets refined in place and ends up as useless minerals.That third part is the part I want to convert to either of the first two parts.
So as you Obviously want to point out to us, as it is Important, you are saying that Ore Refined into Minerals become useless ?
I'll gladly use all of those 'useless' minerals, then I won't need to bother with my occasional mining and strip out and sell my compression array and refining array and put even more guns up.
Regardless of how much you and you friends deride and abuse the other people in this thread we all have our opinions, I quite successfully run empire mining ops, moving ore directly to a POS, there is no requirement for any sort of easy mode, it is easy enough as it is.
If you had bothered reading you would notice the distribution of Ore IS NOT standard across the EVE Universe, You Cannot meet your supply of Everything from simply mining in your own backyard, This is working as intended from CCP's point of view, IT Encourages TRADE.
This whole thing basically boils down to you wanting empire miners to compress ore and deliver it to Jita to fill markets for YOU.
Well to burst a bubble Jita is not the be all and end all, local markets for supply and demand of those 'useless' minerals are all over.
I do not ship ore to Jita due to the risk/reward factor, I use it myself, occasionally buying in any shortfalls, either locally or from hubs, dependant on pricing/risk/effort.
I play to enjoy EVE, NOT to constantly expand a wallet or stockpile ever increasing war chests of ships, so forgive us (insert goon adjective) empire players, for not bowing to your demands crudely disguised as beneficial to all.
My apologies for my limited intellect which in no way compares to your awesomeness and sheepleness and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.
Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON' |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 12:42:00 -
[276] - Quote
Querns wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote: Yet my comment about the supply of compressed ore in Jita stands.
Not really. Imagine the total output of all mining in eve in one bag. A percentage of this ore is compressed and sold, either on the market or privately. A second percentage is sold raw, both on the market and privately. The third -- and I really need you to pay attention because this is the important part -- does not hit the market at all; it gets refined in place and ends up as useless minerals. That third part is the part I want to convert to either of the first two parts.
I think you vastly underestimate the value a miner puts on his time and product.
Miners are acutely aware of the ISK/hr calculation for their effort. The know to spend their limited "hr" mining what brings them the most value. They do not simply move the ore to a station and hit reprocess without understanding what that does to the value of their product. This may not be true for the noob solo miner but anyone who connects with any mining organization knows straight up that refining is bad and you leave that up to the people that have refining skills (and even then, only if it is profitable).
What you are combating is lazy. Miners will not waste hours hauling their product around if they do not have to. They will sell it to their corp, sell it to the local market straight to buy orders because it is not worth the hours to move the ore when they could be using those hours to mine. It also typically isn't worth the cost to hire someone to move it either as it eats into the majority of any profit you might see. There are other players that see the ISK/hr of mining as inferior to other professions. These are the players that will buy the ore, move it to a POS, compress it, and move it to market because they see the value in the compressed product. As many have said, this will take time to develop as a market as it requires players who value hauling as a profession for profit.
Station or orca compression simply destroys any value in the compression profession (which exists despite your derision of the process and those that engage in it) and will ultimately result in the compressed ore prices dropping to near mineral values which, I suspect, is ultimately what you desire.
I'm all for eliminating the compressed variants however as I think it makes for a more unified market.
Now, give me a Roraqual that can fly in high-sec and compress and I think you have an interesting gameplay option for players who wish to devote the training to that profession. |
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
23
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 13:08:00 -
[277] - Quote
ELWhappo Sanchez wrote:if your hauling to a pos to compress instead of your miners dropping to the pos while mining your doing it wrong. orca with compression would be great imo.
Yes. A POS in a mining op is your staging point - your miners drop off in the hangar (or now, just dump in the compression array) as their holds fill up. Covetors/Hulks will probably have an Orca, so in this scenario the Orca would dump at the POS as the hold fills up.
Compression/refining should happen as soon as possible after gathering the ore as you then minimize the logistics hassle of hauling uncompressed ore around. This is what's behind my desire for a Mobile Compression Unit or something like it: I'd like to just be able to drop a MCU right in the belt where I'm mining and compress as I go. If I had an MCU, I wouldn't even need a POS any more.
|
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
23
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 13:18:00 -
[278] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:I think you vastly underestimate the value a miner puts on his time and product.
Miners are acutely aware of the ISK/hr calculation for their effort. The know to spend their limited "hr" mining what brings them the most value. They do not simply move the ore to a station and hit reprocess without understanding what that does to the value of their product. This may not be true for the noob solo miner but anyone who connects with any mining organization knows straight up that refining is bad and you leave that up to the people that have refining skills (and even then, only if it is profitable).
What you are combating is lazy. Miners will not waste hours hauling their product around if they do not have to. They will sell it to their corp, sell it to the local market straight to buy orders because it is not worth the hours to move the ore when they could be using those hours to mine. It also typically isn't worth the cost to hire someone to move it either as it eats into the majority of any profit you might see. There are other players that see the ISK/hr of mining as inferior to other professions. These are the players that will buy the ore, move it to a POS, compress it, and move it to market because they see the value in the compressed product. As many have said, this will take time to develop as a market as it requires players who value hauling as a profession for profit.
Station or orca compression simply destroys any value in the compression profession (which exists despite your derision of the process and those that engage in it) and will ultimately result in the compressed ore prices dropping to near mineral values which, I suspect, is ultimately what you desire.
I'm all for eliminating the compressed variants however as I think it makes for a more unified market.
Now, give me a Roraqual that can fly in high-sec and compress and I think you have an interesting gameplay option for players who wish to devote the training to that profession.
What makes mining difficult has never been the actual gathering of ore; it's the logistics pain of getting value out of the ore you mine. When I was a noob, I didn't know enough just to sell the raw ore rather than try to refine it; I didn't realize that by refining, I was actually losing up to half the value of the ore I was mining because of my low skills. Even now, when I have high refining skills, I generally compress rather than refine unless I need the minerals for manufacturing.
I also learned to set up sell orders rather than just dump my ore on buy orders. It takes more patience to sell ore this way, but you make a lot more ISK over time. And finally, I started selling my ore via contracts rather than on the market -- lots of manufacturers are happy to have raw materials delivered to their door. You may not make a huge profit compared to selling on the market, but you also won't have to run the ganker-gauntlet. I've made a bunch of ISK over the years selling ore in border systems to corps out in null (or trading high-ends for low-ends).
I'd push back on compression, though. Hisec ore compression is what made me get back into mining after giving it up for a long time due to the logistics hassles. The changes to POS anchoring rules, the introduction of the Miasmos, and the ore compression array made solo and small-gang mining a worthwhile (if very boring) career again. I understand the concerns about station compression, but really, stations already have nearly ubiquitous refining capability (though at lowered efficiency) so I think the same could be done for compression.
Compression of ore is a good thing all around. It helps the miners, it helps the manufacturers, and it's good for the market. We need more of it, not less.
|
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 13:29:00 -
[279] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
I'd push back on compression, though. Hisec ore compression is what made me get back into mining after giving it up for a long time due to the logistics hassles. The changes to POS anchoring rules, the introduction of the Miasmos, and the ore compression array made solo and small-gang mining a worthwhile (if very boring) career again. I understand the concerns about station compression, but really, stations already have nearly ubiquitous refining capability (though at lowered efficiency) so I think the same could be done for compression.
Compression of ore is a good thing all around. It helps the miners, it helps the manufacturers, and it's good for the market. We need more of it, not less.
Reprocessing (at a station or POS) takes considerable training to do properly Compression requires some training to be able to anchor a POS plus some in-game consideration logistically for placement, operation, and use. Putting compression at a station (or even a mobile structure) makes the skill required zero thus the value of it next to nothing primarily because it is instantaneous. Compression should have value, otherwise it should simply not exist. I prefer it to remain POS based given the current options. Orca based isn't a bad idea but it should require some training investment above the ship hull to operate and possibly compete with boosting so that a choice has to be made whether to compress (taking time/energy) or boost. High-sec Rorqual access is also an interesting option considering how badly it was hurt by the compression array introduction and the skills required to fly it.
|
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
23
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 13:46:00 -
[280] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Reprocessing (at a station or POS) takes considerable training to do properly Compression requires some training to be able to anchor a POS plus some in-game consideration logistically for placement, operation, and use. Putting compression at a station (or even a mobile structure) makes the skill required zero thus the value of it next to nothing primarily because it is instantaneous. Compression should have value, otherwise it should simply not exist. I prefer it to remain POS based given the current options. Orca based isn't a bad idea but it should require some training investment above the ship hull to operate and possibly compete with boosting so that a choice has to be made whether to compress (taking time/energy) or boost. High-sec Rorqual access is also an interesting option considering how badly it was hurt by the compression array introduction and the skills required to fly it.
The same complaints have been made about having refining services at stations over the years, but ultimately, it helps everyone to make resource gathering and processing more and not less widespread. The penalty for reprocessing at a station is the motivation for doing POS reprocessing; so perhaps a similar penalty could be applied to compression. But I think it's important to have some way for lower-skilled or solo/small-gang miners who don't want to or can't use a POS to have some way of compressing their ore. (Again, they can refine in stations; why can't they compress as well?)
|
|
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 13:51:00 -
[281] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:Obil Que wrote:Reprocessing (at a station or POS) takes considerable training to do properly Compression requires some training to be able to anchor a POS plus some in-game consideration logistically for placement, operation, and use. Putting compression at a station (or even a mobile structure) makes the skill required zero thus the value of it next to nothing primarily because it is instantaneous. Compression should have value, otherwise it should simply not exist. I prefer it to remain POS based given the current options. Orca based isn't a bad idea but it should require some training investment above the ship hull to operate and possibly compete with boosting so that a choice has to be made whether to compress (taking time/energy) or boost. High-sec Rorqual access is also an interesting option considering how badly it was hurt by the compression array introduction and the skills required to fly it.
The same complaints have been made about having refining services at stations over the years, but ultimately, it helps everyone to make resource gathering and processing more and not less widespread. The penalty for reprocessing at a station is the motivation for doing POS reprocessing; so perhaps a similar penalty could be applied to compression. But I think it's important to have some way for lower-skilled or solo/small-gang miners who don't want to or can't use a POS to have some way of compressing their ore. (Again, they can refine in stations; why can't they compress as well?)
I'd be more receptive to if there was skill involved as well as penalties for station vs. POS on par with reprocessing. Penalties just cut into profit but without a skill requirement to achieve higher profits, you devalue the process to the point that it is essentially worthless where a 1 day old alt can perform the function as easily as a dedicated player.
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X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 14:27:00 -
[282] - Quote
The issue is that the moment someone hits refine the minerals are pretty much locked into their current location. Previously that was not the case. If you wanted to buy a titan worth of minerals in Jita 4-4 you could, that was where the minerals were, and then you could compress and move them at will. Now if you want to buy a titan worth of comp ore in Jita you're **** out of luck because there simply isn't enough comp ore there. You have this crazy situation where there are two very, very different trit prices. The price of trit in Jita, where there is a glut from all these miners just refining trit that nobody can use, and the price of trit in nullsec, which is inflated by all of nullsec industry competing for not enough comp ore.
The only efficient point at which to comp the ore is as you mine it, with a comp pos in system. Ore itself is too big to efficiently be moved to a central location like Jita and the market is too spread out and thin for you to efficiently go around picking it up and compressing it yourself. The only way ore gets compressed without a shitton of "ore I comp myself is free" thinking is by the highsec miner who, by virtue of being a highsec miner, doesn't know about ore compression, doesn't care and wouldn't want to optimise his isk per hour, even if he knew about it.
The system is poorly conceived because it places the burden upon the single player group least interested in it. I have put a lot of time into coming up with innovative workarounds for this and am not mad about Crius, it actually helps me because it forces other people out of the market, but it is not working as intended. Nullsec industry is still a waste of time because of the effect of two different trit prices, importing from Jita is, as before, still the way to go. The purpose of better nullsec refining, manufacturing, more expensive jumps and so forth was to localise industry in null but the effect has been the opposite. |
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
23
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 14:51:00 -
[283] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:The issue is that the moment someone hits refine the minerals are pretty much locked into their current location. Previously that was not the case. If you wanted to buy a titan worth of minerals in Jita 4-4 you could, that was where the minerals were, and then you could compress and move them at will. Now if you want to buy a titan worth of comp ore in Jita you're **** out of luck because there simply isn't enough comp ore there. You have this crazy situation where there are two very, very different trit prices. The price of trit in Jita, where there is a glut from all these miners just refining trit that nobody can use, and the price of trit in nullsec, which is inflated by all of nullsec industry competing for not enough comp ore.
The only efficient point at which to comp the ore is as you mine it, with a comp pos in system. Ore itself is too big to efficiently be moved to a central location like Jita and the market is too spread out and thin for you to efficiently go around picking it up and compressing it yourself. The only way ore gets compressed without a shitton of "ore I comp myself is free" thinking is by the highsec miner who, by virtue of being a highsec miner, doesn't know about ore compression, doesn't care and wouldn't want to optimise his isk per hour, even if he knew about it.
The system is poorly conceived because it places the burden upon the single player group least interested in it. I have put a lot of time into coming up with innovative workarounds for this and am not mad about Crius, it actually helps me because it forces other people out of the market, but it is not working as intended. Nullsec industry is still a waste of time because of the effect of two different trit prices, importing from Jita is, as before, still the way to go. The purpose of better nullsec refining, manufacturing, more expensive jumps and so forth was to localise industry in null but the effect has been the opposite.
I'll say it again: give me a Mobile Compression Unit that I can drop in a belt and compress as I mine. Problem solved.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 15:16:00 -
[284] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:I'll say it again: give me a Mobile Compression Unit that I can drop in a belt and compress as I mine. Problem solved.
I like this idea too -- the limitations on the new mobile structures mean that a mobile compression unit would only work for the pilot that dropped it, making it ideal for smaller-time miners (not to mention that you typically cannot have more than one mobile structure anchored in a short radius.) Miners who are more organized or who are more affluent can use a POS or an orca, providing a clear "upgrade path" for compression. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
137
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 16:09:00 -
[285] - Quote
I am not anti-Goons. I am not anti-null sec. I like building things and would happily sell to everyone, as long as I can make a profit. All sides of the null-sec arms race are feeling the same pinch. Right now, a number of people in null-sec are angry because they were forced to choose between paying more than they wanted to for compressed ore, hiring people to compress ore for them, buying raw minerals and doing extra hauling, or letting their schedules slip.
There may or may not currently be a shortage of compressed ore on the market. There is definately a shortage of omber on the market, but that is because it has not been worth miners' time to target those asteroids for years. That is not a compression issue.
The profits currently being made by the middlemen compressors may or may not currently be too high. (I do think they are too high.) The market will sort things out. More competition will bring profits down. Nobody keeps this level of profit long, when the barriers to entry (SP and sunk-costs) are so low.
High sec ore compression is an interesting thing recently added to the game.
Previously, every miner was forced to run missions until they had 6.7 standings with some corporation. Then they flew all their ore to a station and pushed a button to refine it. Then they shipped it to a market. This was the only option.
Today there are three options. 1) They can still do the above. 2) They can sell the raw ore to middlemen where they found it. Buy orders are higher than mineral value! Or 3) they can put up a POS and compress it. Some people are still doing the first out of habit. Putting a big red warning on the refining interface will educate them. Many other miners are already choosing options two and three. If miners see they can make more isk, they will act in their own best interest, and you will get more compressed ore reaching market.
If compression is made ubiquitous, by allowing it in belts or in a station, instantaneously, and with standings and skill point requirements similar to or less than refining (currently both requirements are 0), then the refine button will simply have been replaced by the compress button.
The interesting thing will have been taken out of the game.
Every miner will compress all their ore. Because it took no effort, compression will have no value. Compressed ore will sell at exactly the mineral price. And then why did the miner have to push the button at all? Why did it not come out of the asteroid pre-compressed?
Honestly, I think that is the entire point of the OP. You deny it, but I know you are smart enough to realize that if compression is made ubiquitous, you will not need to pay people to do it. You will get your minerals even cheaper than when you had to go through the hassle of building 425mm railguns.
In conclusion, I am strongly pro intersting things. I do not think, "My costs and effort are higher than I anticipated," or, "My schedule slipped," are good enough reasons to take an interesting thing back out of the game. |
ELWhappo Sanchez
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 16:47:00 -
[286] - Quote
you forgot option #4 screw mining ore because mining ice pays 4x more right now. until there's more isk in it and more options than just setting up a pos and burning charters and fuel no dice. oh ya and getting war dec'd every other day by jack asses and having to take the pos down again. no hs miner really wants to play that game because of jerks blanket war deccing mining corps over and over in hs. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 16:56:00 -
[287] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:Because it took no effort, compression will have no value. Compressed ore will sell at exactly the mineral price.
Compressed ore prices will always average at higher prices than their mineral components. There might be a point where a certain mineral spike causes one type of compressed ore to be slightly worse, but the market will adjust quickly in that instance.
The reason that compressed ore will always be more valuable is because it is the only way to move minerals efficiently, and once the compressed ore is refined, it can never be converted back into a compressed form. Additionally, nullsec gets a bonus on the ore output, so nullsec values compressed ore much higher than individual minerals, meaning we will pay more for it (and we already are paying more for it).
However, paying 50-100% margins on compressed ore simply won't happen except for emergencies. Unlike many highsec miners, we actually pay attention to the math and make decisions based on profitability. We are fine paying a margin (like the current 15-25% margins), but higher than that and we'd either slow/stop production or move our investments elsewhere.
This change absolutely would help us. It would also help anyone doing significant production outside of major trade hubs. It would also allow us to pay highsec miners MORE ISK for the same work that they're doing. We are already a patch ahead of Crius, and the compressed market is still not where it should be. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
816
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 18:03:00 -
[288] - Quote
Aryth wrote:As a funny aside. Sometimes we don't all share the same degree of enthusiasm for a change.
Myself, I don't actually think we need station compression this moment as I would like to see how this plays out more. I would like to see the higher yield variants rolled into a base compressed type though. Just to simplify the whole process.
Aryth wrote:I really would love to see Courier contracts to POS somehow. Some sort of anchorable outside the shields invuln mod if you had to. Removing the worst component, M3 movement to your POS, could go a long way to turning this into a really niche profession. It also means a whole lot more things go boom in highsec POS kills.
That sounds like EVE to me.
+2 to Aryth.
These are ideas I can get behind. Keep it in space, do not move more stuff to invulnerable stations. Remove insurance. |
Wopasi
Wicoti
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 18:20:00 -
[289] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote: However, paying 50-100% margins on compressed ore simply won't happen except for emergencies. Unlike many highsec miners, we actually pay attention to the math and make decisions based on profitability. We are fine paying a margin (like the current 15-25% margins), but higher than that and we'd either slow/stop production or move our investments elsewhere.
If one ignores the condescending remark, sounds like the opening to negotiations. |
Nex Killer
Drunk3n Warfare
83
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 19:04:00 -
[290] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:This change absolutely would help us. It would also help anyone doing significant production outside of major trade hubs. It would also allow us to pay highsec miners MORE ISK for the same work that they're doing. We are already a patch ahead of Crius, and the compressed market is still not where it should be.
How do you know the compress market isn't at what it should be now? You only say this because YOU and your little friends want it for less. You guys want compressed ore? Either pay the markup or make it yourself. No one's gonna do it for free. |
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H3llHound
Koshaku Tactical Narcotics Team
35
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 19:11:00 -
[291] - Quote
A good way to balance the orca compression is the amount of ore it can compress in a period of time. It should not work like the rorq or compression array do now but more like the old rorqual. Sitting in the belt deployed giving boosts and using it tractors to haul in cans for compression. Give it 2 more highslots(1 for core and 1 for tractor) + 3 for the links. |
HarlyQ
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 19:23:00 -
[292] - Quote
I like the idea of the mobile compression unit I will be able to switch to hulks over mackinaws. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2208
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 19:42:00 -
[293] - Quote
Umm .. refining takes massing amounts of skill points and specialization per ore type, raising standings for a station or running your own POS in highsec, (which completely sucks btw), and expensive implants.
You want to replace all that with a no brain, no skill, no effort Orca or mobile compression array just to supply nullsec with cheap compressed ore. What are you smoking?
If this happens CCP needs to add specialized skills for compressing different type of ores, compression implants, and if NPC station compression is added then standing for compression efficiency.
Otherwise offer every refiner a SP and impant refund when they give this amazing gift to nullsec cartels in the clear effort to completely kill off highsec industry.
I have a better idea, if you want localized industry in nullsec then go scrap over your regular belts just like highsec miners have too, compress your own ore, and haul it to wherever you're producing. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Nex Killer
Drunk3n Warfare
83
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 20:13:00 -
[294] - Quote
H3llHound wrote:A good way to balance the orca compression is the amount of ore it can compress in a period of time. It should not work like the rorq or compression array do now but more like the old rorqual. Sitting in the belt deployed giving boosts and using it tractors to haul in cans for compression. Give it 2 more highslots(1 for core and 1 for tractor) + 3 for the links.
Why make the Orca like the old Rorq? That would just be taking some big step backwards. The Orca or a mobile compressing unit would be great on the go, but if someone is buying uncompressed ore from a whole region like I do. The Pos mod would beat an Orca compress any day because I'm compressing millions of m3 of ore and not the 50K m3 the Orca ore bay has. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 20:16:00 -
[295] - Quote
Here is an example. I use Kernite because it is a large source of Mexallon, which is in high demand, and Kernite is by far the most profitable ore to mine and compress right now in high sec.
As of right now, there are less than 6000 units of compressed kernite available on public markets across all of high sec. There are already huge buy orders of 31k per unit (that's 310 isk per unit of kernite) up in Jita.
There are less than 800k units of actual Kernite in Jita, most of which are extremely overpriced at 433 per unit. There are millions of units of kernite across tens/hundreds of different random systems in highsec. After 6 weeks, the market is still vastly under stocked on compressed ores (especially Kernite).
When we purchase compressed ores, we're interested in the mineral components we can get out of them. When you argue that we need to "pay more" for compressed ore, that simply won't happen- it becomes cheaper for us to simply buy the minerals in their uncompressed form and ship them that way. The minerals we buy directly are at a discount from the ore and compressed ore price, but we have the added cost of isotopes for additional jumps back and forth to nullsec. So, when there is no compressed ore, we just buy the refined minerals at a discount, and the extra ISK goes to those mining ice (which is usually us, since we control most of caldari ice).
Yes, our proposal would make the end product (minerals in dek) cheaper for us, but it would also put more money directly into the pockets of high sec industrialists.
This is more information for CCP and people that are going actually contribute to the thread, as the grrgoon people don't actually think before typing. |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
215
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 20:21:00 -
[296] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:...or running your own POS in highsec, (which completely sucks btw) Considering how little effort this is, if it "completely sucks," what does raising standings qualify as? A crime against humanity?
Sentamon wrote:You want to replace all that with a no brain, no skill, no effort Orca or mobile compression array just to supply nullsec with cheap compressed ore. What are you smoking? For anyone miner who can do math. it's already been replaced by no more than 30 minutes of training and 100 million ISK worth of POS goods. The Orca is way more effort, expensive, and vulnerable.
Sentamon wrote:If this happens CCP needs to add specialized skills for compressing different type of ores, compression implants, and if NPC station compression is added then standing for compression efficiency. They pretty much have to do that now.
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
140
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 20:46:00 -
[297] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Here is an example. I use Kernite because it is a large source of Mexallon, which is in high demand, and Kernite is by far the most profitable ore to mine and compress right now in high sec. As of right now, there are less than 6000 units of compressed kernite available on public markets across all of high sec. There are already huge buy orders of 31k per unit (that's 310 isk per unit of kernite) up in Jita. There are less than 800k units of actual Kernite in Jita, most of which are extremely overpriced at 433 per unit. There are millions of units of kernite across tens/hundreds of different random systems in highsec. After 6 weeks, the market is still vastly under stocked on compressed ores (especially Kernite). When we purchase compressed ores, we're interested in the mineral components we can get out of them. When you argue that we need to "pay more" for compressed ore, that simply won't happen- it becomes cheaper for us to simply buy the minerals in their uncompressed form and ship them that way. The minerals we buy directly are at a discount from the ore and compressed ore price, but we have the added cost of isotopes for additional jumps back and forth to nullsec. So, when there is no compressed ore, we just buy the refined minerals at a discount, and the extra ISK goes to those mining ice (which is usually us, since we control most of caldari ice). Yes, our proposal would make the end product (minerals in dek) cheaper for us, but it would also put more money directly into the pockets of high sec industrialists. This is more information for CCP and people that are going actually contribute to the thread, as the grrgoon people don't actually think before typing.
here is a screenshot from 2 minutes ago from "The Forge" region Kernite for sale in "The Forge" that clearly shows MILLIONS of units for sale. Is it in Jita....NO
You keep mentioning freighter. It took 83 freighters of minerals for a titan, now it takes roughly 120 freighters of ore, both ended up between 7-8 JF full of somethign compressed. You are only talking a 50% increase in freighter use and even less if you have high ends in nullsec, all you have to import is low ends, that cuts out almost 18 of the 120 freighters, so really only 20-25 more hauling.
Think of it as "Death to all SC" cause maybe one less person will do it, therefore one less will be built |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
105
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 20:54:00 -
[298] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Here is an example. I use Kernite because it is a large source of Mexallon, which is in high demand, and Kernite is by far the most profitable ore to mine and compress right now in high sec. As of right now, there are less than 6000 units of compressed kernite available on public markets across all of high sec. There are already huge buy orders of 31k per unit (that's 310 isk per unit of kernite) up in Jita. There are less than 800k units of actual Kernite in Jita, most of which are extremely overpriced at 433 per unit. There are millions of units of kernite across tens/hundreds of different random systems in highsec. After 6 weeks, the market is still vastly under stocked on compressed ores (especially Kernite). When we purchase compressed ores, we're interested in the mineral components we can get out of them. When you argue that we need to "pay more" for compressed ore, that simply won't happen- it becomes cheaper for us to simply buy the minerals in their uncompressed form and ship them that way. The minerals we buy directly are at a discount from the ore and compressed ore price, but we have the added cost of isotopes for additional jumps back and forth to nullsec. So, when there is no compressed ore, we just buy the refined minerals at a discount, and the extra ISK goes to those mining ice (which is usually us, since we control most of caldari ice). Yes, our proposal would make the end product (minerals in dek) cheaper for us, but it would also put more money directly into the pockets of high sec industrialists. This is more information for CCP and people that are going actually contribute to the thread, as the grrgoon people don't actually think before typing.
Yet the flipside of that is as a buyer looking to compress, kernite is one of the worst investments. Using Amarr's buy price (since miners again tend to want to get the best value for their product), you can buy kernite at about 260 a unit. If you take 100 units of that and compress, you can sell it in Jita for around 31k. That's about 16% profit (only Scordite is worse - relative to Amarr). You can get more profit buying Veldspar and doing the same (roughly 27% profit). So why would I focus my time on moving Kernite to the market when there are plenty more profitable ventures?
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Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 21:14:00 -
[299] - Quote
Obil Que wrote: Using Amarr's buy price (since miners again tend to want to get the best value for their product), you can buy kernite at about 260 a unit. If you take 100 units of that and compress, you can sell it in Jita for around 31k. That's about 16% profit (only Scordite is worse - relative to Amarr).
This is our exact point- why are miners selling ore when they could be compressing that same exact ore for 16% more profit?
Kenneth Feld wrote:here is a screenshot from 2 minutes ago from "The Forge" region Kernite for sale in "The Forge" that clearly shows MILLIONS of units for sale. Is it in Jita....NO
Mr Omniblivion wrote:There are less than 800k units of actual Kernite in Jita, most of which are extremely overpriced at 433 per unit. There are millions of units of kernite across tens/hundreds of different random systems in highsec. After 6 weeks, the market is still vastly under stocked on compressed ores (especially Kernite).
Thank you for the screen shot, I literally just said there were millions of units across high sec.
I mentioned this before as well- we are not just trying to build one titan here. Titan producers are going to produce whether or not the ore costs more because titans already have a huge margin (just ask X ATM). The extra freighter loads of minerals applied across an entire market makes the cost too high to even implement a full fledged null market. This is the issue. |
Valedictio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 21:25:00 -
[300] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Here is an example. I use Kernite because it is a large source of Mexallon, which is in high demand, and Kernite is by far the most profitable ore to mine and compress right now in high sec. As of right now, there are less than 6000 units of compressed kernite available on public markets across all of high sec. There are already huge buy orders of 31k per unit (that's 310 isk per unit of kernite) up in Jita. There are less than 800k units of actual Kernite in Jita, most of which are extremely overpriced at 433 per unit. There are millions of units of kernite across tens/hundreds of different random systems in highsec. After 6 weeks, the market is still vastly under stocked on compressed ores (especially Kernite). When we purchase compressed ores, we're interested in the mineral components we can get out of them. When you argue that we need to "pay more" for compressed ore, that simply won't happen- it becomes cheaper for us to simply buy the minerals in their uncompressed form and ship them that way. The minerals we buy directly are at a discount from the ore and compressed ore price, but we have the added cost of isotopes for additional jumps back and forth to nullsec. So, when there is no compressed ore, we just buy the refined minerals at a discount, and the extra ISK goes to those mining ice (which is usually us, since we control most of caldari ice). Yes, our proposal would make the end product (minerals in dek) cheaper for us, but it would also put more money directly into the pockets of high sec industrialists. This is more information for CCP and people that are going actually contribute to the thread, as the grrgoon people don't actually think before typing.
Something for you to think about, Q. How much Kernite do you think is available in Caldari Space ?
A. NONE, Try 0.7 or lower Amarr and Minmater Space is where you will find it
Now think of who would want to stock JITA for your one stop shopping, Mining and Compressing in either faction space and then hauling it there for you, disregarding Niarja, Uedema and the local residents there, Oh that Includes your fellow CFC Members.
What it all comes down to is the fact that YOU do not have a supply of what YOU want in your one stop shop, try taking some of your own advice.
HTFU Adapt or Die etc etc etc
You are starting to sound like some sort of petulant child who isn't getting a sweetie, 'cos I wants it' ?
and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.
Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON' |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 21:35:00 -
[301] - Quote
Valedictio wrote:Something for you to think about, Q. How much Kernite do you think is available in Caldari Space ?
A. NONE, Try 0.7 or lower Amarr and Minmater Space is where you will find it
This is a cute argument and all, but there is no Kernite in Amarr, Rens, or Hek at all. Please insert new argument and catchphrases, and try again. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 21:45:00 -
[302] - Quote
Also, trying to paint Niarja as some impenetrable barrier which no freighter shall pass is also extremely cute. Let's look at recent freighter deaths in Niarja. Oh, my. Look at barely one freighter killed a day, with periods of up to a week between freighter deaths. Now, how much traffic goes through Niarja on a daily basis? Thousands of ships a day. Let's pretend that one in ten of those is a freighter. That is putting you at less than a 1% chance of dying, discounting tactics like tanking your freighter, limiting your hauled value, and using public courier contracts to diversify risk. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2100
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 22:26:00 -
[303] - Quote
Thread temporarily locked for some cleaning. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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