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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
178
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Posted - 2011.11.24 15:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: The question is whether that "realism" is more or less important to you than the overall competitiveness of the game.
What's important to me - and why I play EVE - is the sheer creative possibilities. Anything that locks players down into three or four "standard" ship fits, with a "standard" fleet composition, in my mind, detracts from the very point of the game that is trying to be made with the thousands of ships and modules, leading to millions/billions of different possible combinations.
Removing ECM or nerfing it to the point of making it useless in my mind locks us down to fewer possibilities. I would be much more in favor of introducing ways to avoid or mitigate ECM, like via gang links or dedicated ships. This would add the need for yet another support player in a fleet, with a specialized skill set. Instead of just creating the invincible "uber-ship" that everyone would then fly. |
Florestan Bronstein
The Waterworks
181
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Posted - 2011.11.24 15:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Riot removed features that were "anti-fun" until what was left was pretty bland and no longer fun.
Wouldn't like to see CCP take that route. |
Azahni Vah'nos
Vah'nos Family
133
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Posted - 2011.11.24 15:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:I don't read it as an argument for removing randomness, but rather just one for removing dodge from LoL (finally!). They're still keeping crits as random, for example. The arguments for and against randomness in general are rather more extensive and complex, but as a general rule I'd lean towards preferring to use something more deterministic, both because randomness makes planning less reliable, and because people's instinctive understanding of statistics/randomness is pretty low. (For a game aiming to be as competitive as LoL is, I'd not be surprised to see them moving towards eliminating randomness in other mechanics too, and falling back on "every third hit" sort of mechanics where there's a need for variable outcomes. If you look at SC2, for example, I think the only random roll in the entire game is for starting positions, and after that everything is deterministic.) Response to highlighted.
Welcome to warfare.
History is littered with random events that happen during conflict. A degree of randomness should always remain in EVE if it is to be a true warfare simulator. Even two bullets fired from the same gun one after the other do not have the same effect on a target.
Nex (Cash Shop)-á/ Aurum - removing sand from the sandbox since Incarna. Currently the only use for aurum is to buy virtual items in the in-game store, but Cockerill expects to expand its uses in the future. |
Starlight Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.11.24 16:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Not saying ECM could not due with some tweaks, I am too new at EVE to have any serious game mechanics input but I see the issue in a different light.
As far as I see it, EVE (ship fitting) is a game of chess.
Person A specs their ship for a specific task and goes up against person B who has specGÇÖd some other ship for a specific task. Now if both players happen to spec for basically the same task and are similar ships then a tight fight will ensue.
If there is a considerable disparity in specs; eg. ECM or webs/warp disrupt vs a mission runner spec) then its a more one sided affair and one player has to hope they can run before they lose that ship.
So your opponent turned up in a highly specialised (as far as I see it more than any other standard ship) ECM ship and your throwing your toys out of the pram because they beat you at the spec game that round then unfortunately for you its possibly dead ship time.
But equally you could equip a Passive Targeter or ECCM as standard by reducing the max firepower / tackle set up you are possibly running in order to help counter such a situation.
And while yes there are "optimum" fits for specific ships for specific tasks, should you end up engaging somebody whoGÇÖs ship and fit out optimises yours then its tough. Should they run a sub optimal fit but cover more bases and even if they cannot kill you, cause both sides to retire then that just happens to be the outcome rather than a dead ship.
You either say the ECM ship should only be used in fleet actions and therefore is marginalized or you make it capable of performing more directly in a pvp role because its strength is jamming you while it possibly meters out its meagre damage compared to a tackling high DPS ship. Should its ECM TANK fail then its in big trouble.
Just part of the way I see it.
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation
178
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Posted - 2011.11.24 16:46:00 -
[35] - Quote
Starlight Kouvo wrote:
Just part of the way I see it.
Well I'm not new I've been playing for close to 7 years now, but I have to say "well said".
There are a certain not so insignificant but also very vocal number of players who love to scream until they get what they want, and what they want is to win every single time. Your comparison to chess is a good one. EVE decided to choose the route of being able to specialize ships by giving us skill, ship bonuses and modules to that effect. If you bring the wrong ship to a fight then you musn't blame the devs or scream that the game is broken - it's not. The queen can be taken by a pawn if she's in the wrong place.
The Falcon is far from being an elite ship at anything except jamming, and then only with the proper skill, and THEN only with the proper type of racial module unless, thanks to "random", you happen to be lucky over and over again. Players screaming that they should not be able to be jammed so easily is like miners complaining that they are able to get suicide ganked so easily. The reply to them is always: lolz the game mechanics allow it, HTFU.
While ECM is far from perfect and absolutely no one likes to be jammed, in order for a Falcon to jam someone it must have a lock on someone (ECM burst suck, AFAIK) and it is limited in the amount of people it can affect in a given time period. So either find a way to break its lock or get those who aren't jammed to kill it post-haste. However when you have a fleet of 8 autocannon/blaster ships and 1 interceptor then no, you aren't going to be able to hit that Falcon 80km away and it serves you right. Bring a sniper or two and hope the sniper doesn't get jammed, or accept that you can't have all have a perfect fit and not a single one of you get jammed. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
43
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Posted - 2011.11.24 16:59:00 -
[36] - Quote
I have never on any of my characters had caldari cruiser 5
YES falcons were OP a couple of years ago.
NO they are not OP now
Seriously were are all you guys flying? I hardly even see falcons, Scorpions are far better most of the time as at least they have some staying power. If you don't like ECM stop flying logistics ships and chances are you will hardly ever encounter it.
1 apoc with some ECCM will pop falcons beore they can even warp
ECM is not overpowered it is a valid tactic without which RR gangs would be far more difficult to crack. |
chrisss0r
No.Mercy Merciless.
3
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Posted - 2011.11.24 17:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:The Snowman wrote:Another problem with 'No random' is that things are too predictable.
It will come to the stage where its so predictable that any fleet simply will not engage another because there is no chance, statistically that they will win.
Even given the randomness of human nature. Indeed. In fact randomness doesnt exist... It just cant be effectively made. However number of equation finished by computer is higher then number of equation done by human being in real time. Simple fact that human beings are dumb as hell and cant compete with speed of computer makes randomness "real"
lol wat |
Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2011.11.24 17:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
ECM is fine. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
2325
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Posted - 2011.11.24 17:22:00 -
[39] - Quote
Personally I prefer randomness, as it makes for a far more interesting game.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
223
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Posted - 2011.11.24 17:42:00 -
[40] - Quote
Pinaculus wrote:How effective would a smart-bomb loaded cruiser on standby be for anti-falcon tactics?
I know it isn't ideal, but I'd prefer to discuss tactics using existing mechanics rather than whine about changing them. It seems more productive.
Blasphemy!!!1!! |
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Messoroz
AQUILA INC
61
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Posted - 2011.11.24 18:04:00 -
[41] - Quote
It's kind of depressing seeing how people mention ECCM is the only way to go when there's also optimal/fallof that's easily abused by nano ships and long range boats. |
Ris Dnalor
Fleet of Doom Ushra'Khan
24
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Posted - 2011.11.24 18:37:00 -
[42] - Quote
Worpout wrote:The only weapon against falcons is to have a 100 man fleet, and bubble it or catch it AFK uncloaked.
falcons won't like tornados much I reckon ;)
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation
178
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Posted - 2011.11.24 18:54:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ris Dnalor wrote:Worpout wrote:The only weapon against falcons is to have a 100 man fleet, and bubble it or catch it AFK uncloaked. falcons won't like tornados much I reckon ;)
I think a lot of people won't like tornados much... |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
257
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Posted - 2011.11.24 19:10:00 -
[44] - Quote
Worpout wrote:The only weapon against falcons is to have a 100 man fleet, and bubble it or catch it AFK uncloaked.
35+ sensor ships makes it difficult to keep permanently, in some fleet with several ships when you see one of these and if you don't primary it...you fail.
In small gangs thou, this ship can make the difference but small fights/gangs are not the mirror of actual pvp forms, everything is about numbers so your ecm ships just go like "pouf" faster than you can spell it.
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DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
380
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Posted - 2011.11.24 20:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
Guys, guys. ECM isn't random. Any ECM jams you 100% of the time no matter what. Because of Falcon. |
Pinaculus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
40
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Posted - 2011.11.24 21:45:00 -
[46] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Guys, guys. ECM isn't random. Any ECM jams you 100% of the time no matter what. Because of Falcon. it was only a matter of time I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs. |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
23
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Posted - 2011.11.24 22:30:00 -
[47] - Quote
I have no problem with the randomness end of it. Just nerf the ECM strength of all ECM mods/drones 10% would probably be enough. Making the jam take effect at the end of the cycle (I believe it's that way for the drones already) might also be good.
As for Blackbirds, change their bonuses so they're forced into about 80km instead of sitting out at 110km+.
Falcons are ok as they are. 150M ISK should buy you something half-decent. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
257
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 22:47:00 -
[48] - Quote
AkJon Ferguson wrote:I have no problem with the randomness end of it. Just nerf the ECM strength of all ECM mods/drones 10% would probably be enough. Making the jam take effect at the end of the cycle (I believe it's that way for the drones already) might also be good.
As for Blackbirds, change their bonuses so they're forced into about 80km instead of sitting out at 110km+.
Falcons are ok as they are. 150M ISK should buy you something half-decent.
Well it's not exactly what I think about when I fly Lachesis or Arazus, uber long range point and cheap crap damps |
Moonaura
Swedish Aerospace Inc The Kadeshi
72
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Posted - 2011.11.24 22:50:00 -
[49] - Quote
I'd just like to add to those asking for counters / improvements to ECM, that there is already a ship to both improve AND counter ECM, it's called an Eos.
It sucks because it sits in the worst popular twilight zone, by not really useful for either armour or shield gangs the way it fits and the gang links work... but.... hey there it is.
Maybe one to fix in Summer Expansion, by giving it it's original drone bay and bandwidth back and making it as good with shields as it is with armor tanks. This was a popular ship once the old veterans tell me, before it was nerfed big time. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
291
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Posted - 2011.11.24 23:04:00 -
[50] - Quote
Some ideas to modify ECM:
- Quicker cycle time on ECM mods - 20 seconds is a long time. Make it 10?
- Increase cap usage on ECM (quicker cycle will do this) - Shutting down another ship's targeting from long range should take a lot of energy.
- ECCM could stand to be stronger.
- Alternatively, ECCM mods could shorten the duration of the jam instead. (or make it a new mod) - giving the target at least a chance to react, or forcing the Falcon to commit two modules to jam one ship.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation
178
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Posted - 2011.11.24 23:21:00 -
[51] - Quote
So much easier to fight the design of the ship than to actually come up with tactics to kill the ship, isn't it? It's him it's him change him nerf him, I'm not doing anything wrong, I want to do what I have always done and not change anything at all. Nerf the other guy. |
Emiko Luan
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
8
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Posted - 2011.11.25 02:06:00 -
[52] - Quote
Reilly Duvolle wrote:Well to be frank, chance based ability to prevent targeting solutions altogether is pretty much the only thing left after the Gallente got the ability to reduce sensor effectiveness through their remote sensor damps - which makes sense given their short range combat profile.
You COULD ofc argue that the EWAR mechanics should be revamped in its entirety, both to remove chance based mehanics and to give the races EWAR capabilities that would better reflect their race and their historical struggle against their respective arch enemies.
The Caldari should for example have a drone control jammer to affect the control range of their Gallente enemies drones, and target painters to increase the effectiveness of their missiles.
The Gallente should have remote sensor dampeners to force their enemies closer and a missile defence jammer that affected the accuracy of incomming missiles.
The Minmatar should have the ability to conduct energy warfare against the cap hungry beasts of the Amarr with nos/neuts, and hold their slow moving enemies in place with long points.
The Amarr should have tracking disruptors to reduce the range of minmatar gunbased shirmish ships and long webs to slow down their fast moving enemies in face of the Amarr armored behemoths.
This post is a gem and should be looked at. though drone control seems a bit too focused. TDs affect 3 weapon types afterall, SDs affect all long range ships, TPs affect every weapon etc.. +welcome to my world+ http://venomzer0.deviantart.com |
DHB WildCat
Club Bear
19
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Posted - 2011.11.25 03:03:00 -
[53] - Quote
I find it very funny the answer for most people in this thread to ecm.
TD's = TE's or TC's
Damps = SB's
Nuets = cap boosters
ECM = more people and fleets (lol) because lets be honest.......... i had a vindi with a full grail set and an eccm in the mid.... sensor strength of over 130. A flacon laughed at me as he jammed be 7 out of 10 cycles. ECM is fine, but ECCM needs a major BOOST! |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
8
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Posted - 2011.11.25 03:10:00 -
[54] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode |
Lili Lu
41
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Posted - 2011.11.25 04:46:00 -
[55] - Quote
Reilly Duvolle wrote:Well to be frank, chance based ability to prevent targeting solutions alltogehter is pretty much the only thing left after the Gallente got the ability to reduce sensor effectveness through their remote sensor damps - which makes sense given their short range combat profile.
You COULD ofc argue that the EWAR mechanics should be revamped in its entirety, both to remove chance based mehanics and to give the races EWAR capabilities that would better reflect their race and their historical struggle against their respective arch enemies.
The Caldari should for example have a drone control jammer to affect the control range of their Gallente enemies drones, and target painters to increase the effectiveness of their missiles.
The Gallente should have remote sensor dampeners to force their enemies closer and a missile defence jammer that affected the accuracy of incomming missiles.
The Minmatar should have the ability to conduct energy warfare against the cap hungry beasts of the Amarr with nos/neuts, and hold their slow moving enemies in place with long points.
The Amarr should have tracking disruptors to reduce the range of minmatar gunbased shirmish ships and long webs to slow down their fast moving enemies in face of the Amarr armored behemoths. The racial ews make more sense when you view them as against pirate factions instead of as against the empire faction enemies (still agree with your post that it's sorta backward). Leaving ecm out, as it is an odd duck and affects everything, Gallente damps are forcing Serpentis to have to get close before doing damage. They essentially force Serps to fit Blasters. Amarr TDs are forcing Sansha/Blood Raider to get close to apply damage as well since they are turret ships. Minmatar are applying painters to fast moving angels to make them easier to hit.
Oh look we have some dev monitoring of this thread, but of course the gameplay issue is sidestepped and just some philosophical banter about randomness Hey, do you guys ever monitor S&M? Because you never reply there. There's another thread there on the same gameplay issue if you're at all interested Here it be |
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
117
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Posted - 2011.11.25 07:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:The racial ews make more sense when you view them as against pirate factions instead of as against the empire faction enemies (still agree with your post that it's sorta backward). Leaving ecm out, as it is an odd duck and affects everything, Gallente damps are forcing Serpentis to have to get close before doing damage. They essentially force Serps to fit Blasters. Amarr TDs are forcing Sansha/Blood Raider to get close to apply damage as well since they are turret ships. Minmatar are applying painters to fast moving angels to make them easier to hit.
Actually, the current state of affairs makes most sense if you view them from an introspective perspective. Nations at peace will often develop their capabilities in order to counter mirror images of their own forces (because they regard them as superior) instead of countering specific threats.
Take the Amarr for example, they use energy warfare and tracking disruptors - which makes sense if you think you will be fighting a mirror image enemy - cap hungry ships with almost exclusivly turret based DPS.
But the prereq is actually peace. In peacetime you dont know who you will fight - and you prepare to fight some imaginary enemy that looks a lot like yourself. In EVE this makes no sense however - given the lore and the eternal struggle the four empires have been involved in for the last 200 years. In EVE it would make infinitely more sense for the empires to have developed specific counters to their actual enemies capabilities.
As for the pirate factions - yes I sorta see the point, but fighting pirates would be considered a mere nuisance compared to the life and death struggles between the Gallente and Caldari for example. |
Amro One
One.
36
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Posted - 2011.11.25 09:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
To counter falcons is easy,
Have a celestic of maulus/keres in fleet with 2x rang damps.
OMFG, I know i am a genius right. No falcon pilot would primary these ships.
You idiots need to think more. |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
28
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Posted - 2011.11.25 10:31:00 -
[58] - Quote
Arazu-¦s and expecialy rapiers are more common than the falcon. Should they be nerfed too.. no ofc not.. why? Points and Webs are more common used and out a pshycology point of view people are more used to when a rapier prevent them from getting back to a gate. Ecm is fine as it is now. Expecialy after the optimal range nerf. get close to a falcon and u will see its very hard to get a jam up (personal experiance). In the victims eyes a falcon is more evil and rare, its like the big bad pok+¬mon thats actualy crap when using the right pok+¬balls. The best thing about eve is the sandbox thing where strategy is really important. I can solo falcons in a sabre even when they have 2 minni jams. CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS |
Molly Molotov
Sunshine In A Cup
9
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Posted - 2011.11.25 10:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:So much easier to fight the design of the ship than to actually come up with tactics to kill the ship, isn't it? It's him it's him change him nerf him, I'm not doing anything wrong, I want to do what I have always done and not change anything at all. Nerf the other guy.
Ideas,
Take manual control over the guns and aim them at falcon without a lock.
Activate a giant magnet that attaches it to your ship (tractor beams don't work).
Overheat ECM burst, cloak, sneak attack from stealth |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
310
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Posted - 2011.11.25 10:59:00 -
[60] - Quote
Fly a Tengu. Don't get jammed. Kill Failcon from extreme range.
Fly a Raven. Don't get jammed. Kill Failcon from extreme range.
Fly a Claw. Don't get jammed. Kill Falcon in his face.
Fly an Apocalypse. Don't get jammed. Kill Failcon from extreme range.
Fly a T2 sentry Dominix. Get jammed. Kill falcon from extreme range.
See, if you have a falcon capable of jamming N ships, all you need is N+1 ships capable of hitting the Falcon. You don't have to kill it, just scare it off the field. That will remove the Falcon for about a minute while it warps off then returns to the field.
You can reduce the chance of getting jammed by using ECCM. You can reduce the impact of getting jammed by fitting sensor boosters with resolution scripts.
The best part about flying ECM ships is the number of tears you can get. Other EWAR doesn't bother people: they'll keep spraying their ammunition into space with gay abandon when you have disrupted their tracking to the point that they can't hit the broad side of a Titan at point-blank range GÇö they won't' care because they're still making fancy noises and shooting pretty lights into the darkness GÇö but you get one jam off in a five minute fight, suddenly they're posting on the forums to complain about how overpowered ECM is.
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