http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/inside-design-dodge

i think some compelling arguments are raised as to why game mechanics focused on randomness should be phased out of competitive games.

How effective would a smart-bomb loaded cruiser on standby be for anti-falcon tactics?

I know it isn't ideal, but I'd prefer to discuss tactics using existing mechanics rather than whine about changing them. It seems more productive.

When a falcon has 4 mid slots dedicated to shutting you down, and has spent as many months training EW skills to level 5, there is absolutely nothing random about it. Be grateful they can only get one, maybe two, ships at a time, and quit whining.

ive spent years rolling dice, its not random when i throw a 6.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/inside-design-dodge

i think some compelling arguments are raised as to why game mechanics focused on randomness should be phased out of competitive games.

you you can also fit 1-2x mods to counter jam him (that's why ECCM is).

How effective would a smart-bomb loaded cruiser on standby be for anti-falcon tactics?

I know it isn't ideal, but I'd prefer to discuss tactics using existing mechanics rather than whine about changing them. It seems more productive.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/inside-design-dodge

i think some compelling arguments are raised as to why game mechanics focused on randomness should be phased out of competitive games.

The arguments for and against randomness in general are rather more extensive and complex, but as a general rule I'd lean towards preferring to use something more deterministic, both because randomness makes planning less reliable, and because people's instinctive understanding of statistics/randomness is pretty low.

I don't read it as an argument for removing randomness, but rather just one for removing dodge from LoL (finally!). They're still keeping crits as random, for example.

The arguments for and against randomness in general are rather more extensive and complex, but as a general rule I'd lean towards preferring to use something more deterministic, both because randomness makes planning less reliable, and because people's instinctive understanding of statistics/randomness is pretty low.

(For a game aiming to be as competitive as LoL is, I'd not be surprised to see them moving towards eliminating randomness in other mechanics too, and falling back on "every third hit" sort of mechanics where there's a need for variable outcomes. If you look at SC2, for example, I think the only random roll in the entire game is for starting positions, and after that everything is deterministic.)

Another problem with 'No random' is that things are too predictable.

It will come to the stage where its so predictable that any fleet simply will not engage another because there is no chance, statistically that they will win.

Even given the randomness of human nature.

As long as the game has a counter to randomness, (be that skillz, mods, or bonuses) I'm fine with randomness in my EVE!

When a falcon has 4 mid slots dedicated to shutting you down, and has spent as many months training EW skills to level 5, there is absolutely nothing random about it. Be grateful they can only get one, maybe two, ships at a time, and quit whining.

So if i train guns for many months, and dedicate 8 high slots for shooting people, surely i should be able to take out one ship? and they should be greatful that i can only take out one, maybe two at a time. Logic, you suck at it.

Indeed. In fact randomness doesnt exist... It just cant be effectively made. However number of equation finished by computer is higher then number of equation done by human being in real time. Simple fact that human beings are dumb as hell and cant compete with speed of computer makes randomness "real"

I don't read it as an argument for removing randomness, but rather just one for removing dodge from LoL (finally!). They're still keeping crits as random, for example.

The arguments for and against randomness in general are rather more extensive and complex, but as a general rule I'd lean towards preferring to use something more deterministic, both because randomness makes planning less reliable, and because people's instinctive understanding of statistics/randomness is pretty low.

(For a game aiming to be as competitive as LoL is, I'd not be surprised to see them moving towards eliminating randomness in other mechanics too, and falling back on "every third hit" sort of mechanics where there's a need for variable outcomes. If you look at SC2, for example, I think the only random roll in the entire game is for starting positions, and after that everything is deterministic.)

Another problem with 'No random' is that things are too predictable.

It will come to the stage where its so predictable that any fleet simply will not engage another because there is no chance, statistically that they will win.

Even given the randomness of human nature.

That's fair - but you have to admit that history has proven time and time again that sometimes random events have cost entire battles. Some things you simply can't plan for. And the first casualty of battle is always the plan.

What I'm afraid of is that EVE turns into the "I got the magic item now I always win" game. Last week I lost a Falcon, despite being at max skill. Why? The guy had fit ECCM and honestly Falcons have no tank and no DPS, so if you don't jam you are dead. Now I'm not complaining - this is as it should be. The Falcon is a highly specialized ship and giving it tank or DPS would make it too tough.

But I think that any solution should be skill based. Someone who has taken the time to look up and train all those exotic skills should definitely have a clear advantage over someone who just focused on gunnery. Yet more and more I see that EVE is turning into the "copy the magic ship fit" game and creativity is actually being removed. Witness all the "winmatar" ships. Back in the day (Exodus, when I started) it was the magic Raven. In EVE there always seems to be one single fit that is superior to everything else - and frankly that sucks.

The question is whether that "realism" is more or less important to you than the overall competitiveness of the game.

I don't read it as an argument for removing randomness, but rather just one for removing dodge from LoL (finally!). They're still keeping crits as random, for example.

The arguments for and against randomness in general are rather more extensive and complex, but as a general rule I'd lean towards preferring to use something more deterministic, both because randomness makes planning less reliable, and because people's instinctive understanding of statistics/randomness is pretty low.

(For a game aiming to be as competitive as LoL is, I'd not be surprised to see them moving towards eliminating randomness in other mechanics too, and falling back on "every third hit" sort of mechanics where there's a need for variable outcomes. If you look at SC2, for example, I think the only random roll in the entire game is for starting positions, and after that everything is deterministic.)

Just part of the way I see it.

Indeed. In fact randomness doesnt exist... It just cant be effectively made. However number of equation finished by computer is higher then number of equation done by human being in real time. Simple fact that human beings are dumb as hell and cant compete with speed of computer makes randomness "real"

How effective would a smart-bomb loaded cruiser on standby be for anti-falcon tactics?

I know it isn't ideal, but I'd prefer to discuss tactics using existing mechanics rather than whine about changing them. It seems more productive.

The only weapon against falcons is to have a 100 man fleet, and bubble it or catch it AFK uncloaked.

falcons won't like tornados much I reckon ;)

The only weapon against falcons is to have a 100 man fleet, and bubble it or catch it AFK uncloaked.

Guys, guys.
ECM isn't random.
Any ECM jams you 100% of the time no matter what.
Because of Falcon.

I have no problem with the randomness end of it. Just nerf the ECM strength of all ECM mods/drones 10% would probably be enough. Making the jam take effect at the end of the cycle (I believe it's that way for the drones already) might also be good.

As for Blackbirds, change their bonuses so they're forced into about 80km instead of sitting out at 110km+.

Falcons are ok as they are. 150M ISK should buy you something half-decent.

Well to be frank, chance based ability to prevent targeting solutions altogether is pretty much the only thing left after the Gallente got the ability to reduce sensor effectiveness through their remote sensor damps - which makes sense given their short range combat profile.

You COULD ofc argue that the EWAR mechanics should be revamped in its entirety, both to remove chance based mehanics and to give the races EWAR capabilities that would better reflect their race and their historical struggle against their respective arch enemies.

The Caldari should for example have a drone control jammer to affect the control range of their Gallente enemies drones, and target painters to increase the effectiveness of their missiles.

The Gallente should have remote sensor dampeners to force their enemies closer and a missile defence jammer that affected the accuracy of incomming missiles.

The Minmatar should have the ability to conduct energy warfare against the cap hungry beasts of the Amarr with nos/neuts, and hold their slow moving enemies in place with long points.

The Amarr should have tracking disruptors to reduce the range of minmatar gunbased shirmish ships and long webs to slow down their fast moving enemies in face of the Amarr armored behemoths.

Well to be frank, chance based ability to prevent targeting solutions alltogehter is pretty much the only thing left after the Gallente got the ability to reduce sensor effectveness through their remote sensor damps - which makes sense given their short range combat profile.

You COULD ofc argue that the EWAR mechanics should be revamped in its entirety, both to remove chance based mehanics and to give the races EWAR capabilities that would better reflect their race and their historical struggle against their respective arch enemies.

The Caldari should for example have a drone control jammer to affect the control range of their Gallente enemies drones, and target painters to increase the effectiveness of their missiles.

The Gallente should have remote sensor dampeners to force their enemies closer and a missile defence jammer that affected the accuracy of incomming missiles.

The Minmatar should have the ability to conduct energy warfare against the cap hungry beasts of the Amarr with nos/neuts, and hold their slow moving enemies in place with long points.

The Amarr should have tracking disruptors to reduce the range of minmatar gunbased shirmish ships and long webs to slow down their fast moving enemies in face of the Amarr armored behemoths.

The racial ews make more sense when you view them as against pirate factions instead of as against the empire faction enemies (still agree with your post that it's sorta backward).
Leaving ecm out, as it is an odd duck and affects everything,
Gallente damps are forcing Serpentis to have to get close before doing damage. They essentially force Serps to fit Blasters.
Amarr TDs are forcing Sansha/Blood Raider to get close to apply damage as well since they are turret ships.
Minmatar are applying painters to fast moving angels to make them easier to hit.

So much easier to fight the design of the ship than to actually come up with tactics to kill the ship, isn't it? It's him it's him change him nerf him, I'm not doing anything wrong, I want to do what I have always done and not change anything at all. Nerf the other guy.

honestly Falcons have no tank .

Arazu-¦s and expecialy rapiers are more common than the falcon. Should they be nerfed too.. no ofc not.. why? Points and Webs are more common used and out a pshycology point of view people are more used to when a rapier prevent them from getting back to a gate. Ecm is fine as it is now. Expecialy after the optimal range nerf. get close to a falcon and u will see its very hard to get a jam up (personal experiance). In the victims eyes a falcon is more evil and rare, its like the big bad pok+¬mon thats actualy crap when using the right pok+¬balls. The best thing about eve is the sandbox thing where strategy is really important. I can solo falcons in a sabre even when they have 2 minni jams.

To counter falcons is easy, Have a celestic of maulus/keres in fleet with 2x rang damps. OMFG, I know i am a genius right. No falcon pilot would primary these ships. You idiots need to think more.

Fly a Claw. Don't get jammed. Kill Falcon in his face.

I don't read it as an argument for removing randomness, but rather just one for removing dodge from LoL (finally!). They're still keeping crits as random, for example.

The arguments for and against randomness in general are rather more extensive and complex, but as a general rule I'd lean towards preferring to use something more deterministic, both because randomness makes planning less reliable, and because people's instinctive understanding of statistics/randomness is pretty low.

(For a game aiming to be as competitive as LoL is, I'd not be surprised to see them moving towards eliminating randomness in other mechanics too, and falling back on "every third hit" sort of mechanics where there's a need for variable outcomes. If you look at SC2, for example, I think the only random roll in the entire game is for starting positions, and after that everything is deterministic.)

Dodge only starts looking compelling when it can be stacked. But when stacked too high, it completely (and permanently) shuts down a subset of characters. This then causes us to have to make additional things (such as Sword of the Divine) to counter this counter, which ends up using a lot of design space simply to make the statistic fun and non-abusive. Typically, we try to avoid super hard counters like this.

While both Critical Strike and Dodge use a similar randomization formula, Critical Strike is still countered in much the same way as Attack Damage and Attack Speed: buy Armor. Conversely, Dodge canGÇÖt be overcome by getting more Attack Damage or Armor Penetration like other defenses can. This means that Critical Strike is just a damage multiplier, whereas dodge is an entirely new defense type that doesnGÇÖt have a series of sensible counters to it.

Dodge also has much more potential to remove satisfaction in a noticeable way than the other defensive stats, mostly due to its random nature. Failing to finish an opponent with an auto-attack because they happened to get their 5% chance to dodge is a pretty poor experience for the attacker, especially since the escape isnGÇÖt based on a good gameplay decision or skill-based way to survive. The fun to un-fun ratio is poor.

Another problem with 'No random' is that things are too predictable.

It will come to the stage where its so predictable that any fleet simply will not engage another because there is no chance, statistically that they will win.

Even given the randomness of human nature.

...The best part about flying ECM ships is the number of tears you can get. Other EWAR doesn't bother people: they'll keep spraying their ammunition into space with gay abandon when you have disrupted their tracking to the point that they can't hit the broad side of a Titan at point-blank range GÇö they won't' care because they're still making fancy noises and shooting pretty lights into the darkness GÇö but you get one jam off in a five minute fight, suddenly they're posting on the forums to complain about how overpowered ECM is.

ive spent years rolling dice, its not random when i throw a 6.

i think some compelling arguments are raised as to why game mechanics focused on randomness should be phased out of competitive games.

. i do not see why e.g. the following things should not have a slight element of probabilty added
- passive targeting failing / working only shorter (it might still suffice)
- warp scrambling failing or make it even completely like ECM(*)
- target painting having varying effect over time
- webbing having a varying effect over time

You COULD ofc argue that the EWAR mechanics should be revamped in its entirety, both to remove chance based mehanics and to give the races EWAR capabilities that would better reflect their race and their historical struggle against their respective arch enemies.

The Caldari should for example have a drone control jammer to affect the control range of their Gallente enemies drones, and target painters to increase the effectiveness of their missiles.

The Gallente should have remote sensor dampeners to force their enemies closer and a missile defence jammer that affected the accuracy of incomming missiles.

The Minmatar should have the ability to conduct energy warfare against the cap hungry beasts of the Amarr with nos/neuts, and hold their slow moving enemies in place with long points.

The Amarr should have tracking disruptors to reduce the range of minmatar gunbased shirmish ships and long webs to slow down their fast moving enemies in face of the Amarr armored behemoths.

You've got to be kidding - most falcons I meet are overtanked with 1600 mm plate. You can use it, too. Unlike me and ECCM, you know. ECCM = module, avail only at blobs.

overtanked

When a falcon has 4 mid slots dedicated to shutting you down, and has spent as many months training EW skills to level 5, there is absolutely nothing random about it. Be grateful they can only get one, maybe two, ships at a time, and quit whining.

Being lucky is part of being a good commander, ask Julius Caesar. .

Though when I was your age, ECM was much, much worse. It wasn't chance based, it was always certain.

And surprise surprise, no one complained.

I think the dodge haters in LoL and ECM haters in EVE have, (well for lack of a more polite term), they have same lack of mental ability. Dodge had a counter in LoL, it was called sword of the divine. It meant that your attacks couldn't be dodged. It was cheap and usually meant victory over the dodged based champion in LoL. Even as the most auto attack dependent champion. ECM has several counters and you people just want it removed/nerfed because you can't comprehend how to counter it. Here's how:


Any sniper ship with a 100km range. You shoot them from outside their jam range and watch them either explode or be forced off the field. Problem. Solved. My naga/cerb has forced so, so many falcons, rooks, and blackbirds (even up to 6-7 at one time) off the field I just laugh at it.

ECM (what a surprise you can use it too!)

ECCM

Sensor Damps



Rather than dumb down the game, adapt or die. This is EVE's law. If you're fighting against someone where you think a single attack (such as a dodge) missing is the difference between victory and defeat you're doing it wrong. If you're not planning and calculating your fights, then you're relying on chance to win, and the irony of when you lose to the random chance that you got jammed or your attack was dodged is just hilarious. Complaining about ECM is like someone complaining that weapons do too much damage so they should just remove all weaponry from the game because it blows them up.

If falcons are so op, then why (oh god why) when a falcon misses a jam, gets neuted, and disrupted, it dies. It is so delicate that if it misses one jam it is life or death. ECM should be turned into a highslot mod, so that the midslots could be used for tank, give it some usefullness like the curse/rapier (Some additional slot layout adjustment needed). I would much rather fly those two than a PAPER THIN falcon!

ITT: People who haven't faught a nano-curse.

(in this post is a hint on how to kill a falcon)

Add a second and the chance to jam the Scimitar goes to 107.8% (anything over a 100% only applies to falloff chance).

I've not looked at the math myself at all, and I don't really know how the jamming modules stack together, but surely this must be wrong? Wouldn't the jamming modules be unrelated to each other making the chance become 1 - (1-0.576)^2 = 82%?

I have done my math with the stacking penelties being 100% for 1, 87% for 2, and 54% for 3 of any module. I do not have these written down anywhere, so my memory could be wrong and they may be slightly different. However, if I am wrong, the percentages would only change 1 or 2%.

Yes. Provided you're not jammed. Maybe fit some ECCM if you expect ECM ships? OH NO MY MAGIC FIT!

Edit: You want to be able to 1) Max DPS, 2) Tank everything and 3) Be immune to jamming.

Pick one. Two even. You can't have all 3.

Ive been doing some ECM math the last few days, and Ill be happy to share it, just so poeple can see how "godly" ECM really is (or is not).

Scimitars have a signal strength of 17. A Scorpion that has a decently skilled pilot (level IV ECM skills) and a ship loaded with ECM modules will havejust below a 10 jamming strength (9.8).

With the Scimitar's base signal strength, and a Minmatar T 2 racial jammer, the Scorpion pilot has a 57.6% chance to jame the Scimitar with just 1 jamming module. Add a second and the chance to jam the Scimitar goes to 107.8% (anything over a 100% only applies to falloff chance).

Now, lets take that Scimitar and fit it with an EECM. Its actually very common to find one on most fleet fit Scimitars, and an EECM T2 will boost the signal strength of any ship by 96%!. So that Scimitar suddenly has a signal strength of 33.32. Thats higher than most battleships (example, a Raven has a signal strength of 24). So with these new numbers, that same Scorpion pilot who had the 9.8 jamming strength will now only have a 29.4% chance to jam the Scimitar with one racial T2 module and a 55% chance to jam the Scimitar with 2 modules.

Eve is very simple in terms of building and using ships. Never try to make a ship do something it was not intended to do, or you will most likely lose that ship. So, if you do not have an ECCM on your ship, fighting a ECM ship is not smart. If you think you may face a ECM ship, PUT AN ECCM ON IT!

your maths is really bad. (and wrong) but ignoring that, you claim that 30% jam chance off one module onto a ship that is fitted against ecm is good odds?

you realise that your chance is per cycle? so unless the fight is going to last one jam cycle your odds of being jammed in the duration of the fight (at least once) is not 30%. lets say the fight goes 3 mins. the chance is that you will be jammed for 30% of that time (being 2ish cycles) but your chance of being jammed at least once in that 3 min fight is almost 90% AND THIS IS WITH JUST ONE JAMMING MODULE.

so please, take your bad maths and bad conclusions and get out.

Given the loadout of your latest blackbird loss, I can't help but feel someone is totally butthurt. I totally wish i was cool and knew that a "proper" fit was a rocket BB with no ecm, but i guess I need to eat more paint chips to get on your level to understand how to fit my ships properly

its amazing how sure of yourself you are despite how ******** that last statement was.

http://genos.killmail.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8584104

http://genos.killmail.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8583745