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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
EvilNate
Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.04 11:46:00 -
[1]
Edited by: EvilNate on 04/08/2006 11:46:21 I'm not sure whats gonna happen to this thread, it will probably get flammed to shreds as no-one seems to have the ability to be constructive anymore, but I'll give it a shot. I'm not trying to be insulting, but rather say what I see and how I think it could have been done a little better.
When "the goons" first arrived, they recruited noobs left, right and center. Anyone and everyone was allowed to join. The Goonswarm corp grew, intensely till it eventually hit it's cap. Then goonwaffe was created and pretty much the same story.
Eventually both corps made an alliance and became essentially one.
Now, I think where goonswarm went wrong was in it's ability to control its members. How do you control a corp of 1500 ppl strong? (not sure on that count). I've been told that at first smack talking was not allowed, but due to the pure number of members, it was impossible to control, the same could be said for the forums I suppose. 1 person can not control 1500 ppl in this game.
1 person can however control 30-40 ppl, those 30-40 ppl can then control roughly 100 ppl each. Basically, I think GS should have split into smaller corps from the begining, creating small families who were all related via an alliance. Smaller corps are easier to control and police, helping things keep in order.
Any contructive thoughts?
Nate.
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TuRtLe HeAd
Apocalypse Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.04 11:57:00 -
[2]
Maybe thats just what they stand for.
Someones ability to post constructivley on the forum, or behave in local chat, by no means depicts the views of the corp or alliance.
Maybe thats the appeal of goonswarm, the fact that there is no concern with Forum views or local views. After all The forum is as much a part of the game as the game itsself.
What matters is the rallying to a cause when needed, And to be honest I don't know whether they've actually done that or plan on doing so. For all we know they could just plod along through the game not caring because thats there goal.
We'll never ever Know....
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Jacinto Naysmith
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:04:00 -
[3]
Originally by: EvilNate When "the goons" first arrived, they recruited noobs left, right and center. Anyone and everyone was allowed to join. The Goonswarm corp grew, intensely till it eventually hit it's cap. Then goonwaffe was created and pretty much the same story.
Actually this is incorrect. GoonFleet doesn't, nor have we ever, nor will we ever publicly recruit. In order to join GoonFleet, you need to already be a Goon, hence our name.
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anubis 2
Gallente GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:05:00 -
[4]
Goonwaffe split off of Goonfleet when the latter became full, please get your facts straight.
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Desiderata Fabian
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:09:00 -
[5]
Nor has Goonfleet "gone wrong" =)
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hired goon
Fate. Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:11:00 -
[6]
I think the loose basis of goonfleet, regardless of numbers, will make it easier to 'socially manipulate' with entities with the ability to do so, such as BoB. They will disagree with this, saying their shared roots will keep them bound together forever - but the more they play eve the more this will weaken until they will collapse. -omg-
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Widebrant
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:17:00 -
[7]
There's no need to be negative, the historical details of any group in EVE are naturally obscure and hard to get right. To be perfectly clear, GoonSwarm was created as a purely logistic measure when GoonFleet hit the membership ceiling. They never had a separate leadership.
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Goodbye.
This is personal. |
Bavarian Punk
Minmatar The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:36:00 -
[8]
While I understand your intentions, I doubt that splitting the larger group has any advantages. I think that it is an advantage for GoonSwarm be a rather coherent group. Them breaking up because of internal problems is not very likely. I regard the coherence of BoB with mainly three mega-corps as one of the key reasons for their success. The more sub-entities, the more voices, the more contradicting flows in the alliance and the more likelyhood for internal tensions. That of course does not take away from the necessity of tight internal organization to control the members. GoonSwarm has the concept of squads for that as far as I know. It does not seem as if the squad leaders are held responsible for the smack of their pilots though ---
Go buy your stuff at T R U S T Shop |
Widebrant
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: EvilNate 1 person can however control 30-40 ppl, those 30-40 ppl can then control roughly 100 ppl each. Basically, I think GS should have split into smaller corps from the begining, creating small families who were all related via an alliance. Smaller corps are easier to control and police, helping things keep in order.
During our northern adventure, GoonSwarm saw first-hand how an alliance composed of smaller corps disintegrated under pressure. I'm not sure that an alliance consisting of small corps, each with their own goals and leaders would have coped well with the retreat from XZH.
Regardless, reforming GoonSwarm into a set of smaller corps would be against our nature. Goons are not keen on hierarchies, barely accepting a single level of directors above the general population. Most of us are here to play lasers in space, not to play board room (and we're perhaps not grateful enough for those of us who are willing to play station commander and run the corp for the rest of us).
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Goodbye.
This is personal. |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:50:00 -
[10]
Where did they go wrong?
As a purely personal feeling I think its because they don't have any real IC ideology to speak of and are playing the game just like a standard shoot-em-up without any particular relevence to the Eve universe and background.
Of course I can't entirely blame them since the last few major patches and content releases have been about turning Eve into a battlegrounds style capture the flag game, but really this is still a very rich and evocative setting when you take the time to read up on the background and chronicles and roleplay concepts, so its obviously the case that coming in and behaving like a bunch of kids who sneaked into an 18-rated movie to throw peanuts at the projectionist is going to put people's backs up.
When I first heard about the Goonfleet people I actually kinda hoped they'd be like a super version of Mercenary Frigates (an early game merc corp who pvp'ed in cheap ships and had a lot of fun) I figured it would be about entertaining cutprice warfare and fighting the man in his flashy tech2 ships in stylish asymetrical guerilla ops etc etc.
Sadly it wasn't to be and I've got to say Goonfleet seem to have no real style or sense of identity and consequently fail to bring any imagination to the setting (to my taste anyways). A shame and a missed opportunity certainly - and as it is, the whole organisation just seems more akin to a playground fad than an alluring underground movement or growing insurgency that could threaten the Eve status quo.
Ultimately its this missed opportunity that grinds on my nerves most of all. Remedial is obviously a guy who can recruit like crazy and had the chance to do something truly dramatic with his thousands of junior pilots and all their enthusiasm. And if you had that kind of potential why waste it with some bland organisation that brings nothing to the table really? All it would have taken was a little bit of thought, some consideration in designing a concept that would work well with the game background and some rules of engagement and communications standards to avoid some of the worst excesses we've seen.
Just think how damn good Goonfleet could have been if it had a decent name, imaginative concept, innovative set of goals and campaign objectives and a little more style in public relations.
What if they'd been freedom fighters dedicated to clearing out the territorialists and retaking 0.0 from the big boys? What if they'd styled themselves on a resistence movement seeking support and common cause with downtrodden empire majorities and tried to actually upset the status quo? What if their public personna was stylish and neat? What if their leader had a witty turn of phrase and ability to get people riled up in a good way about the In-game In-character conflicts in this wonderful single shard setting?
What if this Goonfleet vs Bob war was actually fought over an Eve Ideology that characters were involved in and sparked the imaginations of this whole forum rather than some nasty little ooc-based smack war because people couldn't help but be offensive in the face of real-world tragedy?
What if.
Thats the two words left in my mind when I think of Goonfleet.
What if a guy who could recruit 2000 noobs into a single cause and put them in ships actually had the imagination to get them to do something more constructive and passionately meaningful than ape the status quo and take part in the biggest lag-fest local chat smackoramas so far.
I wanted Remedial to be a revolutionary leader. A hero for the little guy, a dangerous and edgy resistence leader with a startling agenda to re-write the status quo and turn the old order on its head.
I wanted something new to happen.
Sigh. I guess if anything sensible can be gleaned from the Goonfleet experience its that names really are everything in managing expectation. Or to put it another way ... nobody named Remedial is ever going to set the cluster alight with entertainment.
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Eyst
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:56:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Eyst on 04/08/2006 13:03:46
Originally by: EvilNate Edited by: EvilNate on 04/08/2006 11:46:21 Now, I think where goonswarm went wrong was in it's ability to control its members. How do you control a corp of 1500 ppl strong? (not sure on that count). I've been told that at first smack talking was not allowed, but due to the pure number of members, it was impossible to control, the same could be said for the forums I suppose. 1 person can not control 1500 ppl in this game.
Thats just an excuse. ASCN is 4000 members and you don't see them making idiots of themselves on the boards and local constantly. Every alliance out there knows that whatever your members say on these forums reflects on the entire alliance. The difference is that GoonSwarm complains this isn't fair instead of doing anything about their idiot members. So the outcome is that the 5% or less members who are awful ruin the image of the other 95%.
My guess is the reason they are allowed to stay is GoonSwarm has defined itself as a force that relies on numbers. If you start kicking people out for what they say on the forums and local they would lose members and those members would probably actively hurt any recruitment drives on SA. So instead they let everyone stay in an attempt to not alienate anyone and keep numbers in the alliance up. This means GoonSwarm is big but will have to end up doing everything on its own due to a bad reputation making it difficult to find and keep allies. Its very hard to take on a region by yourself when all the neighbors will attack you. It will be interesting to see if Remedials fostering of the "us against the world" mentality will work in EVE but I don't think it will.
*edit*
Also the idea that GoonSwarm would be different if it was a bunch of smaller corps is false in my opinion. The difference isn't alliance structure. The difference is that most Alliances put the Alliance as a whole way ahead of any individual member. If a member is hurting the Alliance there is no hesitation to kick them out. As long as you make sure each member knows this then they act in a way knowing that if they screw up they will be kicked out. I guess you could call it fear but I think responsibility sounds better. They know there is a consequence for being an idiot.
There is no consequence in GoonSwarm. Part of it I think I explained about in the whole numbers thing. Another part is that "acting like an idiot" is probably defined differently between GS and a lot of other people. Kicking a member out for saying something on the forums might seem silly to them.
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Seleene
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:57:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Seleene on 04/08/2006 12:57:52
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine What if...? What if...? What if...? What if...?
What if they had actually tried to play "EVE" instead of "Blow Up the Imaginary Spaceship" game? I suppose we'll never know, Jasmine. -
Latest MC Movie - Nation Building |
Devilish Ledoux
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:57:00 -
[13]
I don't think Goonswarm is in any danger of implosion in the forseeable future. Right now, they're the most unorthodox alliance in the game ... which is probably why so many of the older alliances dislike them so much.
Consider: Goonswarm started out with a lot of players, the vast majority of whom were in frigates. So they used bee swarm tactics. But it didn't take long before they could fly frigates. And then battlecruisers. And then battleships. Much like individual pilots experience an exponential increase in their combat ability the first few months of gameplay, Goonswarm will see/is seeing/has seen the same thing.
Sure, their low average skill points means that they're not going to have the same gameplay choices available to them, but so what?
My predictions: If Goonswarm gains a solid foothold in a region, they will become a giant African beehive. It doesn't matter what goes on there. As soon as someone attacks it, defenders will be around to sting them to death. All assaults on Goonswarm territory will result in expensive losses, while inflicting relatively little damage (in terms of ISK).
If Goonswarm loses all territory, they will not be hindered in any way. They will simply be more mobile. Either they'll spread throughout the galaxy, or they'll go from place to place, getting fun where they find it. If their leadership decides to invade BoB space, there will be plenty enough *****s for them to slip through. Once they're deep enough inside, they could just attack and kill everything they see. Their losses will be large, but fairly inexpensive and easily replaceable.
They wouldn't have to kill a single POS or set up one of their own. They'd just have to make living in that area of space LESS FUN FOR THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE. No, I didn't say dangerous, deadly, or hostile. I said "NO FUN." That's right, if GS can make enemy players feel frustrated, bored, or aggravated because they can't play the game the way they want to play it, Goonswarm will win. WIN!
In conclusion, victory in Eve has everything to do with fun. Goonswarm understands this more than anyone else out there.
The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored) |
Bavarian Punk
Minmatar The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:00:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux My predictions: If Goonswarm gains a solid foothold in a region...
They won't. ---
Go buy your stuff at T R U S T Shop |
Herberge
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine I wanted something new to happen.
Revolutions come from within. If you're unhappy with the big alliances and how they operate then talk about it, and fight about it. Don't sit on the sidelines, and blame us for not being exactly what you wanted us to be.
If all the people who are sick to death of BoB and their ilk actually did something about it the problem would end. The truth is most people in Eve are happy to live on their knees. They really do roll over when ageing drama queens like SirMolle spray a threat their way. So many hold their space only at the pleasure of one of the top dogs because they would rather have ABC roids and multi-million isk spawns than freedom and good times.
Ten goonswarms won't change that if the people don't want to change.
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Herberge
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:02:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Herberge on 04/08/2006 13:02:46
Originally by: Seleene What if they had actually tried to play "EVE" instead of "Blow Up the Imaginary Spaceship" game? I suppose we'll never know, Jasmine.
What if we had a lot of fun. What if others did the same and stopped complaining.
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Bavarian Punk
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux My predictions: If Goonswarm gains a solid foothold in a region...
They won't.
Keep reading, if it's not too hard for you.
The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored) |
Stamm
Amarr GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:08:00 -
[18]
I'm not so sure how much weight to give this low skillpoint thing.
Goons with 200K SP in 0.0 can't be anywhere else in 0.0 Goons with 3mil SP in 0.0 could be somewhere else.
Goons that have spent all their days in S-U and XZH have missed lots in the game.
We're very quick to criticise Empire life, but really that's because we've all done lots of it, and anyone can do Empire stuff, for 0.0 you need the corp/alliance thing.
So perhaps the low skillpoint goons will be attracted by Empire, to go and run missions and so on and experience the parts of the game they've not seen. And the higher SP ones will want to join a corp where their personal contribution can make a noticable impact, they can be part of a close knit team etc.
They may come here wanting to play like goons, and nothing else, but I've seen ex-goonfleet members in various different walks of life in Eve.
On a macro level I hope Goonfleet falls apart, self destructs etc. But on an individual level I've nothing against most of the goons, some of them are incredibly funny, some of them think outside the box and are very good eve players as a result, some of them are just tossers. Most of them I don't know.
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Treylis
Gallente GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:15:00 -
[19]
Actually, I think we're doing pretty well. Personally I've been having fun, and, well, that's what I'm here for.
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Ismern
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Seleene Edited by: Seleene on 04/08/2006 12:57:52
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine What if...? What if...? What if...? What if...?
What if they had actually tried to play "EVE" instead of "Blow Up the Imaginary Spaceship" game? I suppose we'll never know, Jasmine.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/game
First entry: An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime: party games; word games.
I'm pretty sure that this is what I've been doing.
----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken.
Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left. |
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Eolais
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:31:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Eolais on 04/08/2006 13:33:13 It seems that the threads on this forum tend to follow a certain formula:
1. Person creates a thread, possibly with noble intentions (this one seems to be innocent enough) 2. Person puts <insert large alliance/corp name> into the thread subject 3. A few decent responses trickle in 4. Someone posts a snyde comment 5. Flamewar 6. Some moderator closes the thread and attempts to do it with some witty banter. 7. <repeat cycle>
Considering the subject of this thread especially, which can easily be construed as an trolling post (try posting a "Where did they go wrong" thread with any other large corp and see if there's a different result), I'm wagering that this topic will be locked before I can even finish out typing this post.
However, I felt like explaining about our organizational structure.
1. As mentioned before, Goons dislike heirarchy. This is why regular GS members like me post these self-righteous posts that tend to embarrass each other, but generally our intentions are sincere. In any case, while we don't particularly enjoy bureaucracy, we do have a fondness of reverent leadership, usually in an absolute position. Some people may consider this dictatorialism, but it is benign because we generally share a common interest.
2. Someone also asked how the directors of GoonFleet and the encompassing swarm can deal with herding around 1500 "noobs" and an entire hodge podge of other players. One could similarly ask how the people in charge of SomethingAwful's Forums can do the same thing. The truth is that while nobody is the same, likeminded Goons, and Goons in general, are well known for their ability to coalesce in the name of odd and/or exciting experiences... or en masse for anything that's deemed important by the community. Just look at how much money SA received in donations alone after Hurricane Katrina--the amount raised was so staggering within just a few days that it received all sorts of recognition in the national news circuits. I'm not stating that GoonSwarm's intentions are that noble, I'm merely just stating that we are capable of operating as a major body devoid of almost everything save motivation and a few people blazing the trails. And we can unite under some very strange common interests.
3. Someone posted a comment about our lack of... adherence... to the backstory in Eve. Simply put, most if not all of us in GoonSwarm do not role-play. Yes, most of us do find it funny that people DO that sort of thing... but that issue is not up for debate. I will speak personally here about the reasons I play. I pay $14.95/mo for this game, like everyone else, and how I choose to enjoy my time in game is solely up to me. I work a lot, and I picked Eve as the first (and probably only) MMO to play simply because it requires no grinding. I like setting a skill to train, then going to work, or going out, and coming back and having a skill already trained. I know it doesn't take the effort out of the game, but it definitely makes it more convenient for us working folks to play. And surprisingly enough, many people in GoonSwarm do not play simply for the reason of trying to turn Eve into a game of Counter-Strike.
Aside from various problems that often plague all other alliances and corporations in Eve, the only major problem I can find is that the rest of the Eve community doesn't know how to deal with us. As mentioned by the thread author, and as witnessed by several players, our organizational structure is different. Our attitudes are different. Our tactics are different. We deal with things differently. While we move en masse, we all act on our own accord with very loose rules--and that gets us into trouble from time to time. And after a certain amount of "rogues" shoot off their mouths off too much, people start considering us all to be a bunch of hooligans with no moral values and questionable tactics and our intent is to ruin this game for everyone. Honestly, most of us just want to enjoy the game.
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Crean NaVar
Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Herberge What if we had a lot of fun. What if others did the same and stopped complaining.
You donŠt understand it, do you? We already have lots of fun. We had fun for 3 years now, and we will continue to have fun in the future. We donŠt need someone to teach us how to enjoy this game.
You think we donŠt have a sense of humour. Wrong, we just donŠt like yours.
You think we take this game to serious? Wrong, we just like to play this game serious, because itŠs much more fun then. YouŠll find that out when you get bored of suiciding frigs.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:36:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Herberge Revolutions come from within. If you're unhappy with the big alliances and how they operate then talk about it, and fight about it. Don't sit on the sidelines, and blame us for not being exactly what you wanted us to be.
Been there done it got the tee-shirt man. But seriously, you probably don't recognise my corp name and why should you? Our deeds are now part of the history of the cluster rather than day to day business and its true to say we ran into a problem of scale and POS war limitations. JF is a revolutionary organisation with a radically different ROE and political outlook to 99% of 0.0 space, but we're fundimentally a couple of dozen firebrands with a neat turn of phrase and a decent tech2 ship portfolio. We can skirmish and fight against the odds and survive in the belly of the beast whilst preaching rebellion and insurgency but we aren't ever going to win a major toe-to-toe war against a sitting sovereignty in the big black. Fact of life.
You guys, well, you had the numbers, you had a leader who could combat truly immense fleets and a massive potential to bring change and upset to the status quo. I'm talking about what you could have achieved specifically here, given a better PR approach and clever assessment of the fault lines in existing power struggles in 0.0. And I know you care about this stuff - because of this quote below:
Quote: If all the people who are sick to death of BoB and their ilk actually did something about it the problem would end. The truth is most people in Eve are happy to live on their knees. They really do roll over when ageing drama queens like SirMolle spray a threat their way.
Problem is you are missing the point of a revolutionary movement there. You have to replace the sitting tyranny with something thats actually better. Why would anyone rise up to fight Molle and BoB alongside a Goonfleet that behaves as it does for a leader like Remedial who can put bums on seats in his own corp but seems incapable of talking to the wider cluster? Its not that people are happy to live on their knees so much as robbed of the alternative political ideologies to dream of. Conventional wisdom states that to be anything in Eve you have to be the baddest dog in the yard and claim a patch of space and NBSI defend it against all comers. Thats it. Thats the common expressed aspiration for the frontier. Why would any ordinary capsular rise up to fight Molle to benefit somebody else like Molle who wants to move in after the fighting is done?
There are no alternatives to the territorialist imperative. There are no alternatives to NBSI policing and standings bullying and all the other detritus of frontier imperialism. Its Molle or mini-Molle or smacky-Molle or russian-Molle or any one of a host of molle-wannabees and impersonators. Remedial and the Goons could have been something different but you've just turned into tasteless-molle and wannabee molletes - thats the problem.
Quote: So many hold their space only at the pleasure of one of the top dogs because they would rather have ABC roids and multi-million isk spawns than freedom and good times.
I my experience (and its a pretty long experience since the early days of the frontier) people don't believe that any particular top dog is much better or worse than another. In order to make a viable popular resistence movement you have to convince the public that your guy is something wonderful and the other guy is the spawn of evil to draw a distinction you can build on. NVA vs Ragnar, NCA vs PA the GNW, those were conflicts of charisma and ideas as much as simple laser fire. And thats what I feel the Goons could have had if there'd been more imagination in the design and implementation.
Quote: Ten goonswarms won't change that if the people don't want to change.
Can't you feel the mood around here? People would love a revolution if there were any heroes left to lead it.
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:40:00 -
[24]
Heroes? Don't look at me, sister. I'm just here for the witty banter.
And don't look at Goonswarm, either. You're not the boss of them!
The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored) |
Steve Holt
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Eyst My guess is the reason they are allowed to stay is GoonSwarm has defined itself as a force that relies on numbers. If you start kicking people out for what they say on the forums and local they would lose members and those members would probably actively hurt any recruitment drives on SA. So instead they let everyone stay in an attempt to not alienate anyone and keep numbers in the alliance up.
It's actually the exact opposite. Since we're 2600+ strong, it's a drop in the bucket if a dozen people are kicked from the corp or forced to leave. Hell, you could form several average-sized corps full of bitter goons who have been kicked or ostracized over our 10 month history. Several of them have even tried, you'd recognize the names trolling Goonswarm threads for the past 5 months.
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MissBehaving
Caldari Angels Of Mercy
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:44:00 -
[26]
Edited by: MissBehaving on 04/08/2006 13:44:40
Originally by: anubis 2 Goonwaffe split off of Goonfleet when the latter became full, please get your facts straight.
You have just made the original poster correct in everything he is saying. He is posting a constructive thread and all you can do is act like a 10 year old with "Get your facts straight".
You are what is killing your alliance which is a shame, believe it or not you guys have a lot of potential and you offer new players to Eve so much more than they had before.
So drop the attitude.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:46:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Heroes? Don't look at me, sister. I'm just here for the witty banter.And don't look at Goonswarm, either. You're not the boss of them!
pfft, I've read you're blog its good. Its imaginative and fun and promotes an individualist playstyle fully in keeping with the backstory and concept of Eve. You're a big shiny hero you big faker!
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Blacklight
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:48:00 -
[28]
Constructive thought regarding the original post.
Eve corporations size, structure and behaviour is in my experience a pretty good application of Dunbar's theory on stable social relationships.
Wikkipedia for 'Dunbar', 'Dunbar's number' or 'the Monkeysphere' for info.
Eve Blacklight Style
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:55:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Widebrant During our northern adventure, GoonSwarm saw first-hand how an alliance composed of smaller corps disintegrated under pressure. I'm not sure that an alliance consisting of small corps, each with their own goals and leaders would have coped well with the retreat from XZH.
I think whether an alliance disintegrates under pressure isn't a function of its structure - it depends on its cohesion, leadership and the extent to which its members believe themselves - are proud to be - part of the alliance as well as their corp.
Eg [5] attacked Xetic - Xetic fractured; G/IRON attacked SA - SA fractured; G/IRON then attacked ASCN and (IMHO understandably) expected ASCN to disintegrate too. But that didn't happen, and ultimately it was G and IRON who ended up reforming. Why did ASCN hold - and under serious pressure - when Xetic fractured? Simple answers, I think, are team spirit, leadership and pride. Xetic had precious little; ASCN has plenty.
I don't think the Goons will fracture under pressure - they have too much team identity and pride. Whether they'll exceed their attention span and drift off to another game might be another matter, but I can't see a "standard" alliance disintegration happening.
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Eolais
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:58:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Lucre
I think whether an alliance disintegrates under pressure isn't a function of its structure - it depends on its cohesion, leadership and the extent to which its members believe themselves - are proud to be - part of the alliance as well as their corp.
Eg [5] attacked Xetic - Xetic fractured; G/IRON attacked SA - SA fractured; G/IRON then attacked ASCN and (IMHO understandably) expected ASCN to disintegrate too. But that didn't happen, and ultimately it was G and IRON who ended up reforming. Why did ASCN hold - and under serious pressure - when Xetic fractured? Simple answers, I think, are team spirit, leadership and pride. Xetic had precious little; ASCN has plenty.
I don't think the Goons will fracture under pressure - they have too much team identity and pride. Whether they'll exceed their attention span and drift off to another game might be another matter, but I can't see a "standard" alliance disintegration happening.
Well said. I generally share the same feeling.
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