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arkarsk
Provenance.
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:47:00 -
[361]
 Originally by: burek
I look forward to the day Goons are no more. And no, this isn't jumping on the bandwagon. From the very early days of GoonFleet appearance they made me sick. Why? Well, pretty much for the reasons many have already stated.
Can i get those in point form, or possibly some minutes.
tia
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:19:00 -
[362]
DC's post scores 10 out of 10 goldfish, with a castle thrown in as an extra bonus.
(Oh, and can we get all the alts removed from this thread please?)
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Loka
Gallente
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:31:00 -
[363]
I think most of the people here over reacting here. Yes BoB have a kind of jihad it seems against GOON. AND?????
They are big and one of the best PvP Pilots in EVE. They will give you some excersise for free. If Goon probably would write an official excuse on the forums all will be settled in few weeks and no one of BoB will look back.
I know some of them, they love PvP and EVE more than fighting a JIHAD against frigs. They will get bored and move along, as long the personal thing has been removed.
This really remind me on the GNW (great northern war) were BoB was formed for a common goal. Phoenix alliance was in same situation like GOON is now, with the exception, that PA weren NOOB Chars with 5mil sp max. They were veterans like BoB was and the war was held for almost 1 YEAR. It was a personal war between 2 entitys and at the end almost non still knew, why they still fighting.
Things like this happens like DC already said, when you play this game fur5ther than the EVE universum. When you not only start to attack the character ingame, but also out of game. But than thats its your fault.
Blaming the community for such things is stupid. As i told iam member of a huge alliance and one of the bigger and older Corps and i know we have absolutly NO interests in GOON and what they are doing.
It seemed you ****ed off a small portion of players. Deal with it and resolve your problems outgame first. Afterwards fight this out ingame and in a few weeks everyone will move on. I doubt hundreds of 25+ mil Characters in their T2 ships want to hunt hundreds of 5 mil Characters in their IBIS of doom.
EVE is all about reputation. EVERY where you will be confronted with the reputation your alliance or corp has. Honor is what counts in EVE. You see this when ransomed by a pirat, who dont blow up your ship afterwards, because of his reputation will go downhill. Up to when interacting with whole alliances and probbaly aranging deals. Again imo that is why EVE is great. Its anonym when it comes to outgame characters, but it is for sure not annonym when you are involved into ingame buisness.
My character is old, 3 to 4 years probably i cant really remember and often when Loka is interacting with characters he never met or knew his reputation already is ahead of him. Be it in a good or bad manner, that doesnt matter.
What you fail to realise its not a GOON vs BoB or GOON vs EVE Community thing. Its just how this community is working for YEARS. I have witnessed alliance wars and pure hate before you even knew EVE was here probably. Solve your ingame and outgame problems, move on and in 3 months 90% of the community will have already forgotten about the "GOON accident".
Really.
_________________________
Iam back
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Padijun Siger
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Posted - 2006.08.08 09:12:00 -
[364]
Originally by: Loka
I think most of the people here over reacting here. Yes BoB have a kind of jihad it seems against GOON. AND?????
They are big and one of the best PvP Pilots in EVE. They will give you some excersise for free. If Goon probably would write an official excuse on the forums all will be settled in few weeks and no one of BoB will look back.
I know some of them, they love PvP and EVE more than fighting a JIHAD against frigs. They will get bored and move along, as long the personal thing has been removed.
This really remind me on the GNW (great northern war) were BoB was formed for a common goal. Phoenix alliance was in same situation like GOON is now, with the exception, that PA weren NOOB Chars with 5mil sp max. They were veterans like BoB was and the war was held for almost 1 YEAR. It was a personal war between 2 entitys and at the end almost non still knew, why they still fighting.
Things like this happens like DC already said, when you play this game fur5ther than the EVE universum. When you not only start to attack the character ingame, but also out of game. But than thats its your fault.
Blaming the community for such things is stupid. As i told iam member of a huge alliance and one of the bigger and older Corps and i know we have absolutly NO interests in GOON and what they are doing.
It seemed you ****ed off a small portion of players. Deal with it and resolve your problems outgame first. Afterwards fight this out ingame and in a few weeks everyone will move on. I doubt hundreds of 25+ mil Characters in their T2 ships want to hunt hundreds of 5 mil Characters in their IBIS of doom.
EVE is all about reputation. EVERY where you will be confronted with the reputation your alliance or corp has. Honor is what counts in EVE. You see this when ransomed by a pirat, who dont blow up your ship afterwards, because of his reputation will go downhill. Up to when interacting with whole alliances and probbaly aranging deals. Again imo that is why EVE is great. Its anonym when it comes to outgame characters, but it is for sure not annonym when you are involved into ingame buisness.
My character is old, 3 to 4 years probably i cant really remember and often when Loka is interacting with characters he never met or knew his reputation already is ahead of him. Be it in a good or bad manner, that doesnt matter.
What you fail to realise its not a GOON vs BoB or GOON vs EVE Community thing. Its just how this community is working for YEARS. I have witnessed alliance wars and pure hate before you even knew EVE was here probably. Solve your ingame and outgame problems, move on and in 3 months 90% of the community will have already forgotten about the "GOON accident".
Really.
I'm sure goonfleet will be overjoyed with your browbeating that they've heard ad nauseum for the past two weeks straight.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.08.08 09:33:00 -
[365]
Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 08/08/2006 09:33:26
Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 08/08/2006 09:33:02
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Ow, my eyes are bleeding, why can't you write replies in straight prose rather than hacking quotes to bits?
WRT rhetoric, as I said, you can argue the facts (which is what I'm interested in), and you can take the facts and dress them up or whatever, but presenting rhetoric as fact is just a) misleading and b) unproductive in the scope of this discussion. And no, what I personally as a RZR pilot dislike most about JF isn't the fact that you don't respect us. Don't be so full of yourself. The thing I dislike the most about you is that you blindly follow a belief system which you present as fact, dress up as theatre and entirely fail to rationally justify while at the same time being ridiculously condescending about the whole thing, because you're so absolutely certain of the truth of your beliefs that you refuse to consider the possibility that you could be wrong. That and the fact that you won't just go away.
I'm not going to bother to address your blanket statements about dealing with NBSI organisations unless you can provide evidence that such attitudes are inherently necessary in an NBSI regime. Until then they're simple intellectual sloppiness.
To further address your complaints with "authoritarian regimes" and "territorial enclosurism": firstly, authoritarianism, even where it is a fair description, kinda loses its massive negative impact when you get your head around the fact that residency is optional and emigration is trivial. Don't like it? Live somewhere else, end of problem. Territorial enclosurism? Yes, absolutely. Where's the problem? Was it bad when the first human marked out a patch of land, said "nobody else is allowed in here without my say so", and cultivated it? Was agriculture a bad thing? If territorial enclosurism is automatically bad, then yes. I say no. There's a sub-argument here about whether alliances providing a rigorously-policed "safe zone" for friendly pilots and offering services from conquerables and, in many cases, outposts worth billions upon billions of isk, constitutes "development" or not, but that presupposes that "territorial enclosurism" can be a good thing.
All this is, of course, largely by the by. The simple fact is, as I pointed out in my previous post, that none of this is really relevant. Your ideology isn't relevant. You don't even properly understand what you're suggesting, and all you can come up with is "I'm older than you" and "I think I'm right". Do I look like I care what you think solely on the basis that you think it? No, the majority is not always right, but you've taken a complete non-sequitur here and taken that to mean that the minority is always right instead.
This is, of course, BS. You can call yourself a revolutionary all you like. You can quote films all you like. You can speculate all you like. You can even question my credentials, I don't care. How many carriers do you have in your logistics wing, Jasmine? How big a dreadnaught fleet can you field? How many large POS do you maintain? How many systems do you maintain sovereignty in, Jasmine? Do you mine your fuel or buy it in? How many conquerables are you protecting? How many outposts have you built, Jasmine? How many POS wars have you taken part in? Won? Lost? How many times have you had to fight for your own space? For your allies' space? How many how many how many, Jasmine? What do you know, Jasmine? What do you understand?
We've moved on Jasmine, and I doubt many will cry a tear if you're left behind.
{edit} Also, what DC said
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Hardin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.08 09:53:00 -
[366]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Various posts
One of the best (and most insightful) series of posts I have ever read on EVE forums.
Goonswarm if you are still reading this thread then read (and I do mean READ) what DigitalCommunist wrote and then think (and I do mean THINK) about it...
It's all to easy to mock and ridicule and say 'haha look at the geeky nerd wasting all that time writing about us' (not that I am implying DC is a geeky nerd  ) however it is a lot harder to actually step back and understand and then accept constructive criticism.
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Hardin's Blog (BACK UP!)
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Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.08 09:57:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Hardin
It's all to easy to mock and ridicule and say 'haha look at the geeky nerd wasting all that time writing about us' (not that I am implying DC is a geeky nerd ) however it is a lot harder to actually step back and understand and then accept constructive criticism.
^^ Yet another infamous quote to add to my growing collection. 
Anyway, yes, Digi's posts were outstanding and easily the most lucid breakdown of this entire situation. Jasmine's contributions to this thread are well worth the time to read as well. They outline / define what many players feel about our community.
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Latest MC Movie - Nation Building |
Rift Scorn
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 10:16:00 -
[368]
Caldari Provisions? People not showing their corp and/or alliances? i feel a forum mod moderating you pretty fast.
As for anyone that actually bothered to read Digi's post all the way through, he has yet again cut through to the bone of the matter in a way most people wish they could do; yet don't posses the mental abilities to do so. Including myself.
The op asked for constructive replies, try reading the original post, and Digi's is probabley the most constructive yet. All the flames you throw just proove him more & more correct.
Someone said they'd not seen 12K words on the middle east situation, you really are 15 different assorted types of dumb. That couldn't be summized in 12 Million words, let alone analyzed. Fine if you don't like reading, some of us do, its a nice break from teh pew pew.
Your friendly clone activation expert, free of service to the eve community since '03! |
Heintron
Caldari
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Tre Kroner
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Posted - 2006.08.08 10:26:00 -
[369]
Originally by: Nipsk
You can't be serious. 2000+ people (that you know of in GoonSwarm, there's lots of other goons that aren't a part of that) paying monthly fees with the sole purpose of griefing? Why bother? There's plenty of free games to grief like crazy if that were the case (which it isn't).
Your right. Not everyone from sa is a bad apple. But people from the sa forums have proven time and time again that they are consistent in their griefing behaviour across the mmos.
Originally by: Nipsk
2000+ goons play this game because, guess what? IT'S FUN. Its got its own open-endedness that lets them run things their own way and make a go of it. The only "wrong" thing they've done is trying to go it on their own, and that's as straightforward a choice as anything. There's no malicious intent at all, they're just here to play the game like everyone else. Just because they take advantage of the relative freedom of the game and try to forge their existance on their own doesn't make what they're doing "wrong" in any way.
I really hope thats true for most of the sa forum members. But their behaviour here is too similar to that of sa members in other mmos to be just a coincidence.
Originally by: Nipsk
Also, one anecdote of one thing that happened in one game doesn't amount for the varying range of goon presence on pretty much any other MMO out there from WoW to DAOC to Anarchy Online to that Final Fantasy one to...well, you get the point.
It¦s not that varying as youd might expect :(
Originally by: Nipsk
You're seriously suggesting something as harsh and draconian as full on blacklists for something that essentially amounts to a tasteless joke?
Atleast for the really "bad apples" like that guy who made linden labs call the fbi :P
Originally by: Nipsk
Honestly, if Eve's cut-throat nature has you so bothered because you might get shot at by someone you don't like or by someone who doesn't like you, then you might want to cancel your subscription and look into one of many other MMO's that'd gladly hold your hand through everything and make sure the BAD PEOPLE don't cause you a moment's grief.
Straw man. I have never said anything about me not wanting to get shot at.
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Cathath
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2006.08.08 10:32:00 -
[370]
Before you post please familiarise yourself with the rules relating to alt posts in Corporation & Alliance Discussions.
Also, refrain from denigrating internet forum sites not related to Eve. This is a public forum and these sorts of comments do not reflect well on the Eve community.
Cathath
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Hellspawn01
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.08 11:11:00 -
[371]
I havent read all pages but I do feel like constributing something to this.
GS didnt really go wrong with their idea of creating an empire for beginners in eve. At first, they recruited left, right and center as the OP stated, the result was better than the eve radio army. The pure masses of frigs messing up a whole region since their creation is something new in eve (sorry digi).
The creation of an alliance with not much experience in pvp and with a more experienced player and the ability of holding it together so long is an afford that I must applaud to. Of course there are kids that take things way too much seriously but dont judge the whole alliance because of the actions of some members.
I agree that GS needs some kind of better control, breaking it up into devisions/corps with experienced leaders might change the face of it for good.
I¦ve been told that ppl that leave GS will have a hard time finding a new corp to join. Is that true?
Ship lovers click here |
Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 11:57:00 -
[372]
Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 08/08/2006 12:02:21
Originally by: Hellspawn01
I havent read all pages but I do feel like constributing something to this.
GS didnt really go wrong with their idea of creating an empire for beginners in eve. At first, they recruited left, right and center as the OP stated, the result was better than the eve radio army. The pure masses of frigs messing up a whole region since their creation is something new in eve (sorry digi).
The creation of an alliance with not much experience in pvp and with a more experienced player and the ability of holding it together so long is an afford that I must applaud to. Of course there are kids that take things way too much seriously but dont judge the whole alliance because of the actions of some members.
I agree that GS needs some kind of better control, breaking it up into devisions/corps with experienced leaders might change the face of it for good.
I¦ve been told that ppl that leave GS will have a hard time finding a new corp to join. Is that true?
Some people will. Most will not have a harder time (BoB regularly recruits "some" former enemies. Many other closed recruitment corps do the same thing.....).
That is not to say that finding a great corp will be easy. Reputation is what opens the doors to many Corps with closed recruitment. Reputations have to be built over time, one small act at a time. For corps with opened recruitment, being former Goonswarm should be no problem in "most" cases.
Edit. Need to add a bit...
I commonly advise newbies to shop around for a corp. Do NOT be "overly" concerned about how much "stuff" a corp will give you. DO be concerned about chances to work with more experienced players. Any corp that has anything less than 100% freedom to leave the Corp should be avoided like the plague. Any corp that threatens its own members to keep them from leaving is NOT worth joining for ANY reason.
*snip*
This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
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Frank Messiah
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.08.08 12:16:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Hellspawn01
I havent read all pages but I do feel like constributing something to this.
GS didnt really go wrong with their idea of creating an empire for beginners in eve. At first, they recruited left, right and center as the OP stated, the result was better than the eve radio army. The pure masses of frigs messing up a whole region since their creation is something new in eve (sorry digi).
The creation of an alliance with not much experience in pvp and with a more experienced player and the ability of holding it together so long is an afford that I must applaud to. Of course there are kids that take things way too much seriously but dont judge the whole alliance because of the actions of some members.
I agree that GS needs some kind of better control, breaking it up into devisions/corps with experienced leaders might change the face of it for good.
I¦ve been told that ppl that leave GS will have a hard time finding a new corp to join. Is that true?
First of all GoonFleet never recruited people left, right, and center. They recruited from the website Something Awful.
Secondly, breaking it up into small corps/divisions would be a lot worse because of the logistical nightmares. They would have to deal with paying for all those offices, corp hangars, people having to move between corps to get stuff done in an hourly fashion, etc, etc.
Yes, as a Goon, but not a member of GoonFleet, I have heard about some Alliances blacklisting people with GoonFleet/GoonWaffe in their corp history. But some were able to get around this because members of these Alliances already have Goons in them and can sponsored in.
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Lady Zirconia
Caldari
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.08 12:21:00 -
[374]
Wow. Digi, that post was simply awesome. Rarely does one see such brilliant articulation of points. And it really did sum up everything.
\o/
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MADMAT
Minmatar
Duragon Pioneer Group
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.08 12:25:00 -
[375]
Im not a SA Member, but my friend is. So far im enjoying being part of goonswarm, and everyone has been friendly and helpful. I play eve for the fun of the game, why else would you bother? As to this thread there is alot of positive remarks from other alliances about goonswarms effects in the world of eve and I can only hope it gets better and ppl lay off the mud slinging. Im here for fun, and better yet a break from work >_> <3 to everyone :>
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Xrak
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 12:31:00 -
[376]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Best post ever.
DC wins the forums lolage roflcopters!
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Lacero Callrisian
Minmatar
Solar Storm
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.08 12:36:00 -
[377]
Originally by: Hellspawn01
I¦ve been told that ppl that leave GS will have a hard time finding a new corp to join. Is that true?
I'm pretty sure I heard from somewhere that GS was trying very hard to get spies into all the other alliances, it made sense to me because with low sp the best way to defeat your enemy is through this kind of tactic. For this reason I belive a lot of places are extremely reluctant to recruit anyone from GS in case they are one of the spies.
While I'm here, nice dissertation Digi :) Also nice post from fellow AXE member Ben Derindar, the sharing of kill mails between enemies does show a lot. Especially when those kill mails are of newbie ships and shuttles as Digi mentioned.
THUS IS THE SHAME OF CCP |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.08.08 12:46:00 -
[378]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 08/08/2006 12:46:43
LetÆs summarise again for you: Territorial enclosurism is not automatically bad. Territorial enclosurism conducted by super-advanced starfaring cultures with the resource, technical and communications base to render such things unnecessary and counterproductive is more than bad, itÆs perverse.
Now letÆs talk relevance. YouÆve happily ignored other voices to the contrary mr Toastius on the nature of NBSI, frontier-development and the general ability of alliances and corporations to administrate themselves and the places where they live without recourse to blanket aggression against non-registering neutrals. Hardin has already spoken of the way the Amarri nationalists are able to operate quite successfully without NBSI. I think weÆre all aware of the ISS program of 0.0 infrastructure building without the need for mandatory violence against the unknown also. Yet, you chide me about ônot understandingö what I am suggesting here? This is why I tend to remind you about your relative youth in the cluster Joerd, and IÆd say youÆre falling into one of the traps the Goons did by believing that you are living in a new reality with different rules and everything that went before is irrelevant:
You tell me now itÆs essential to use NBSI to control the area where your outposts and POS are? You tell me I know nothing of this imperative and how it impacts the prevailing ideology of the frontier? ThatÆs rather amusing really Joerd, since these very same arguments were used by the original big bad megacorp Taggart Transdimensional on the protection of their mass mining interests in venal at the dawn of the capsule pilot Diaspora. ôprotecting assetsö, ôprotecting incomeö, ôdefending against the unknownö, ôcontrolling spaceö û these are key memes in the imperialist arsenal and the song you are singing now is nothing new.
And on your accusation of minority-rights non-sequiturs I would say Joerd, the ultimate minority (individual) is always ethically right on these issues since only he or she owns his or her own life and so long as that person doesnÆt seek to kill, enslave or steal the liberty from another they literally cannot be wrong.
So now, onto your expression of values and questions therein:
How many capital ships do I have? Well, just the one at the moment, one nice little Moros but since IÆve got this personal rule against flying anything I havenÆt trained the relevant weapon skills to maximum in (and jump calibration 5 takes forever!!) its more of a curiosity and I frankly prefer a good battleship for combat and a fast interceptor for travel. But I suspect you meant the corporation as a whole rather than me personally û and that leads you to an issue in and of itself since JF is about individual accomplishment not collectivism and as free-captains we own our own vessels and are beholden to no economic masters. There are free-captains of JF that have more money than your entire alliance Joerd û outposts or no outposts, the key indicator of wealth in the cluster at the moment is tech2 portfolios and why would a master builder need bother up keeping a POS/moon-mining supply chain when its possible to simply buy the components and operate the very end of the process for significant profit?
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.08.08 12:46:00 -
[379]
Good morning mr Toastius, nice to see youÆre still here! So letÆs get started then:
(and btw you are to blame for the length of this û IÆm SOOOO much more disciplined when hacking up your stuff with comments to fit into a single post)
As I already pointed out to you itÆs a bit redundant for you to complain about rhetorical flourish since your own representation of the NBSI ideology and status quo in 0.0 is replete with all the poetic overstatement one could desire. And on the reasons why RAZOR dislike JF are open record really, what you consider ôblindö adherence to a flawed ideology we consider commitment a rational alternative paradigm to 0.0 settlement combined with a healthy distrust of hierarchical authority structures.
So to us you are as ôblindö as can be mr Toastius, because you are simply marching lockstep into the territorial paradigm because you donÆt have the courage to dream of something different. Sleepwalking to the status quo isnÆt noteworthy to my eyes. And IÆm afraid that itÆs unlikely IÆll ever go away Joerd, Eve needs dissenting voices and alternative political outlooks to avoid turning into dull counterstrike-ville battlegrounds. Diversity is interesting û conformity is not.
I accept that NBSI territorialism ôworksö Joerd. I accept that itÆs easy, itÆs practical, you can build a corp and alliance on it, and you can defend it by summoning up notions of dirtside nationalism and all the paranoid cautionary tales you can think of. Fear of the unknown and lust for control and power are human traits and its no surprise you can use this stuff to build an in-game empire on à but other human traits exist too, irrepressible individualism, cunning innovation and the bright spark of resistance against authority-figures who would rule empires on the threat of force and theft of liberty on the frontier.
Now your paean to the glories of territorialism aside, the thing to recognise here is that Eve represents a radically-different developmental paradigm to the planet-bound tribal warlords who once scratched out kingdoms by fencing off territory and shooting everyone who dressed differently. Very different realities really: consider for a moment the interaction of global economies and modern telecommunications on the ancient territorial concept û such things transcend and undermine the nationalist understanding of territorial exclusion and free exchange of information and product to hammer the nails into the coffin of that conceit with every passing day.
So regardless of your animosity to my corporation I could come and go in the territory you claim and patrol with absolutely freedom, I can speak to whom I wish, I can buy and sell and conduct my business at will. The only power you actually have is to close the doors of space-stations you administrate û and I recognise that power. But that does rather mean your effective territorial control ends at the docking bay doors; pretending otherwise strikes me as rather self-defeating.
Let me make this plain: IÆve got absolutely no issue with alliances and organisations that build space stations and administrate those places as they see fit. They invest in the place, they set the costs and function and decide who can dock and who cannot. ThatÆs all completely reasonable. ItÆs the spurious extension of authority by threat of violence that surrounds the stations into neighbouring systems and constellations and entire regions that flies in the face of the passage of time and technological progression. Comparing frontier settlement in faster than light starships piloted by immortal clones with the early farming turf wars of the distant past is just, well; eccentric is the kindest way to describe it really.
_________________
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.08.08 12:48:00 -
[380]
At the end of the day Joerd you have to understand IÆm an individualist. I care about me and my actions and I have my own standards and ethics. I donÆt need anyone to protect me, I donÆt bully anyone else and I donÆt need a leadership role in an oppressive regime to make me feel good about myself. I do like big spaceships though and I surely like to fight when the cause is just and the sides are clear.
Eve for me is about giving liberty to the individual and the battle between freedom and oppression. Technology can be a double edged sword, but you know, one day my Dreadnaught is going to be used to blast a pirate-gate camp apart with a sudden attack and help open up the trade routes I love. ItÆs not going to be used to maintain the status quo and fleet dominance of a sitting territorialist power.
At the last thatÆs a pretty simple expression of choice donÆt you think? And Eve is all about choice.
_________________
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.08.08 12:48:00 -
[381]
How many POS do we maintain? As many as we want to maintain and that number is Zero. How many systems do we have sovereignty in? As many as we want and again that number is Zero. How many conquerable stations do we defend? Again none, why would we bother to do something like that went we can just pay whatever docking fees somebody else charges for the service that we consider reasonable? ISS love building stations, we like their style, we use their facilities û hell man, if I want to stay at a hotel I donÆt build one myself I just take out the card and pay for a couple of nights!
Jericho Fraction is not a space empire Joerd, it doesnÆt have aspirations to control and tax and administrate the frontier. ItÆs an association of free-captains united by an ideology that opposes hierarchical imperialism on the frontier and exists despite the best efforts of your ilk to bar free transit and bring dirtside memetics to infect the potential of 0.0. We donÆt fight for territory, we donÆt fight for space. We do fight for liberty and we fight for ideas. Our ôterritoryö (as youÆd best understand it) is the ôterritoryö of ideas û our ôcapital systemö the ideal that its possible for a non-nbsi organisation to be successful, rich and influential while expressing an alternative view on whatÆs a preferable route to colonisation on the frontier.
I know it was before your time Joerd but itÆs probably worth you remembering where Jericho Fraction came from û we were traders, running rare commodities past pirate-camps to make rich profits in the early days of the wild frontier. We were never settlers, and were never involved with any alliance that wanted to close borders û the whole NVA fight was about liberalising space and ensuring that traders could come and go as they pleased. Sure we lost the ideological argument there and eventually got ousted by the hardline inside the PA who wanted to rule the roost and prevent outsiders coming but rather than change our aspirations to suit to prevailing reality we kept trading and fighting gained the revenge on the people who deserved it and ended up richer beyond the dreams of avarice.
No, the problem with your thinking here Joerd (and you arenÆt the only one) is that you are imposing your own set of values and aspirations on others. The things you listed as most important are the things that are most important to you (and admittedly other NBSI territorialist outfits across the frontier IÆll grant you) û but I notice it doesnÆt mention things like:
Kill/Loss ratio?
ISK from merc contracts?
Most money looted from a single pirating?
Single Combats entered into?
Times in the News?
Warships stolen from safespots?
Etc etc
à and these things are very important to other corps on the frontier. Obviously people have different values and different aspirations to go with them and this factor is a very important element in keeping eve fresh and dynamic in my opinion. How boring would it be if there was a league table of ômaintained POSö that was published and Oveur announced the ôwinnersö every month and handed them out some prizes?
ItÆs just not a viable measure of assessing the transitory spectre of ôsuccessö Joerd. If you want to get minimalist about it IÆd suggest total net-worth as the only factually-reliable measure but even that ignores things like experience, reputation, influence, and general aspects of community involvement. Ultimately though it renders your multiple-assessment dTnouement of ômeaningful activityö itself largely meaningless û what is the point of a leader of a police state boasting about how many political prisoners theyÆve locked up to anarcho-capitalist demagogue exactly? Why would libertarian dissident care about how many defence-posts a military junta erect on the border?
_________________
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Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.08 12:54:00 -
[382]
Digi and Jasmine are unstoppable today!! 
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Latest MC Movie - Nation Building |
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.08 12:55:00 -
[383]
Originally by: Xrak
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Best post ever.
DC wins the forums lolage roflcopters!
He's so good when he's on a role. It brings a tear to your eye.
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Antetma
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.08.08 13:11:00 -
[384]
The mere fact that conversations such as these carry on for as long as they do disgust me.
After reading that ridiculously long post, I have got to say that that is the biggest bunch of garbage I have read on these boards for a long time.
How that post can be read and not considered pure flaming is beyond me.
Come down off of your high and mighty pedestals and do us all the favor of never hitting "Reply" again.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.08.08 13:14:00 -
[385]
Hey thanks for your insight and constructive commentary. You have a nice day now! 
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Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.08 13:35:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Antetma
The mere fact that conversations such as these carry on for as long as they do disgust me.
After reading that ridiculously long post, I have got to say that that is the biggest bunch of garbage I have read on these boards for a long time.
How that post can be read and not considered pure flaming is beyond me.
Come down off of your high and mighty pedestals and do us all the favor of never hitting "Reply" again.
Is that the University of Caille's official stance? Seriously, the argumentative value in "that is garbage" is, if you didn't know, quite nonexistent. If you can't muster up the motivation to fill your post with any constructive content, do as you suggest and leave tempting buttons alone (expect self-destruct).
In my opinion DigitalCommunist made excellent points, and hopefully they will give individual goons something to think about - and possibly act on.
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 13:35:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Antetma
Come down off of your high and mighty pedestals and do us all the favor of never hitting "Reply" again.
Well, at least they don't break the rules of this forum section if they do hit "Reply", unlike some...
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Antetma
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.08.08 13:46:00 -
[388]
This is my main thank you very much.
And I found my post to be about as constructive as DC's.
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 14:20:00 -
[389]
Originally by: Antetma
This is my main thank you very much.
And I found my post to be about as constructive as DC's.
Self praise is no recommendation.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Halafian
Eve University
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Posted - 2006.08.08 14:39:00 -
[390]
Originally by: Avon
Self praise is no recommendation.
In light of the slew of self-congratulatory BoB and BoB-fan posts recently written, I nominate this for first place in the 2006 Internet Awards in the category Unintentional Self-Reference.
The more I read, the crazier it all seems. When I read DC's posts, I just figured oh well, he's just roleplaying here. Apparently that was serious. It felt like that scene in "My Cousin Vinny", where the judge fines Vinny for contempt for not having better clothes in court, and Vinny exclaims: "You were serious about that?"
BoB has no moral high ground here. They want a fight and it appears they are cynically playing on people's "this time it's personal!!111" motivations to have one. Their stated reasons for the Jihad (their word even) against GS are bogus (though the timing of the Jihad was pretty convenient). They have the ability to wage whatever war they want, for whatever reason they want, since that's the way it goes in this game. But it's silly to pretend there's some moral high ground here. They don't like GS? Fine. Feel like picking a fight? Knock yourself out. But the sanctimonious language and all the moral strutting reached the level of the absurd long ago. (Especially in light of tookar's locked thread. I guess homophobic baiting is one of those Things That Just Are Done.)
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