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Structure of corps and alliances - Where did Gooswarm go wrong?

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Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.07 11:36:00 - [301] Originally by: Torshin my god was it annoying trying to read this Thread. Jasmine I disagree with your points about the goons being a let down, and not challenging the status quo. Even if you feel they have not done enough I see that they have done so much to challange old allaince theory that the greatest forces in the game are attempting to prevent them from even exsisting. So what if they blow stuff up and don't care that some kid in BOB has played a GAME since it came out. They are trying something new and it worked. I don't think anything went wrong. I think things went too well. See its not a question of me believing the Goons haven't done "enough" its a case of me believing they haven't had the courage of convictions and dared to actually do something new. I honestly don't believe the structure of Goonfleet is any different from organisations that have gone before. Many drones at the bottom, subleaders (squad-leaders) as the middle management and hive leaders at the top make a simple top-down hierarchy in a classical alliance format. The vaunted humour and personality of the Fleet just comes across as an organisation without traditional public relations smarts and a lax approach to external comms discipline and thats nothing new either. The old Curse Alliance, Phoenix Alliance, Forsaken Empire etc etc etc were equally smack-talky on the forums and in local and though some have probably forgotten were just as insulting and irritating to interact with on a day to day basis in wartime (though I'll grant that some specific cases have been particularly bad and the pure number of smack-talkers does achieve an impressive volume if nothing else.) In-game idealogy-wise the Fleet hasn't challenged anything in the war of ideas really. NBSI outlook, territorial claim, flexible approach to member misdeeds and piracy - flip-flopping on individual rights and ducking issues of collective responsibility. Really, there is absolutely nothing new there and these are arguments we had more amusingly with the PA over the CDI incident that led to the Great Northern War. As for the rights of Novice players and showing they can exist in 0.0? Well, as long as they are paid subscribers to the Something Awful forums and adhere to the mood and social conventions there maybe. Its a mass appeal within that environment perhaps, but its of precisely no broader significance to non SA-novices in the wider game. Eve-university is many times more significant in this area to be quite honest. Ultimately if Goonfleet has thus far achieved anything in Eve then its in the field of out-of-character ridicule of this shared hobby we're engaged in. The "internet spaceship game" references and general mickey-taking about how seriously everyone else is taking the wars and conflicts is the theme they'll most be remembered for and though it plays well with the SA rank and file inside the organisation it does tend to isolate the user and backfire on the broader political stage of Eve. So I come back to my feeling that Goonfleet equals a missed opportunity. Some decent in-game ideology and different approach to warfare (not simply aping the territorial psychosis of the big boys) would have turned that impressive member base into a truly lasting intervention rather than a flash-in-the-pan thing that sowed the seeds of its own dissolution by its attitude and interaction with the broader community. I genuinely think the only "new" thing Goonfleet has brought to the table is institutionalised ridicule of Eve's setting and background coupled with childish finger-pointing at the enjoyment other people get from the deep political setting. And thats not a good thing. _________________
PC5 Bermuda Syndrome	Posted - 2006.08.07 11:43:00 - [302] Some time ago ive said on this forum that Goons will have hell leater in game with 'alliance' and such ppl who makes them look very bad. I was flamed, ppl laught at some things which ive said and look whats happening now. Even now as i write this 10-15 GS members are hidding in my home system near 0.0 space.
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.07 11:46:00 - [303] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine I genuinely think the only "new" thing Goonfleet has brought to the table is institutionalised ridicule of Eve's setting and background coupled with childish finger-pointing at the enjoyment other people get from the deep political setting. And thats not a good thing. One of the best summations for the whole mess I've seen. - Latest MC Movie - Nation Building
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.08.07 11:49:00 - [304] Originally by: Hardin Wrong... If you operate non-NBSI space it can actually develop as self policing if managed properly. If you are giving non-alliance corporations access to 0.0 space and resources many are actually GRATEFUL for the opportunity. Many will set up home in the non-NBSI area and actually work with the managing alliance to keep the peace. At a basic level many of the non-allied residents will share intel and sightings. While others will actually join anti-pirate gangs to enforce the rules. All it needs is strong management and communication of KOS lists - which is a chore - but still achievable. That can be done with NBSI too. You just set all non-allied residents to +ve standings, job done. All that NBSI means is that people have to check with you that it's ok to come first.
Hardin Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.08.07 12:00:00 - [305] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Hardin Wrong... If you operate non-NBSI space it can actually develop as self policing if managed properly. If you are giving non-alliance corporations access to 0.0 space and resources many are actually GRATEFUL for the opportunity. Many will set up home in the non-NBSI area and actually work with the managing alliance to keep the peace. At a basic level many of the non-allied residents will share intel and sightings. While others will actually join anti-pirate gangs to enforce the rules. All it needs is strong management and communication of KOS lists - which is a chore - but still achievable. That can be done with NBSI too. You just set all non-allied residents to +ve standings, job done. All that NBSI means is that people have to check with you that it's ok to come first. I wasn't saying it couldn't happen with NBSI. I was just addressing the point that a non-NBSI area requires significantly more resources to police. It doesn't - it just needs more 'intelligence' and 'communication'. ------------------------------ Hardin's Blog (BACK UP!)
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.07 12:12:00 - [306] Originally by: Joerd Toastius That can be done with NBSI too. You just set all non-allied residents to +ve standings, job done. All that NBSI means is that people have to check with you that it's ok to come first. Mandating an administrative overhead to "not shooting people" as opposed to "being allowed to shoot people" is actually a pretty significant difference. At the core of the NBSI philosophy is the belief that you are better/more powerful/more justified in the use of force than other people and strangers exist on your sufference and must by consequence pay court and petition for the right to remain unmolested in space. Its more rational to default to non-hostility in the absense of hostile actions from unknowns, but of course the unspoken imperative of NBSI thinking is the desire for "more targets" for the hawks and those neutrals that fail to pay court and homage to the sitting authority paint themselves as guilty in the eyes of the homeguard fleet. Of course its also traditional to cite paranoia about the motives of unknowns as justification for firing first and assuming evil motives from those who don't come in waving a white flag high and clear when applying for passports - but its still paranoia and paranoia is a psychological illness at the institutional level. Ultimately though I think its about power pure and simple. NBSI regimes like holding the power of life and death over smaller entities and it gives the big-wigs jollies to see the newcomers bowing and scraping for access. Alliance corps like to feel they are better than non alliance corps. Members of alliance corps like to feel they are better than members of independent corps and everyone suffers from the delusion that they are empowered by the ability to shake a big stick and prove their manhood by conjuration of collective threat. + (and while it might seem to some that this sub-debate is not relevent to the topic of the thread I think it is very relevent indeed since its my contention that the adoption of traditional NBSI approach was a big failing on the part of the Goons and betrayed their stated intention to achieve something genuinely new in the Eve environment. I am seeing an awful lot of statements from Goonfleet personnel and supporters decrying the power and arrogance of the old guard 0.0 alliances and the way they demand respect and recognition from newcomers and while I completely sympathise with this feeling I can't help but see the hypocrisy in these sentiments arising from an organisation that practised NBSI imperialism itself when things were going well. ) _________________
Mariko San	Posted - 2006.08.07 12:25:00 - [307] Originally by: Kayl Breinhar Quite simply put... [Goons] are the C-grade-equivalent dramakids/goths from high-school, who are ostracized because they don't fit the "cool kids" A-and-B-grade mold and aren't willing to prostrate themselves to any degree to ingratiate themselves with that groupthink bandwagon logic. But if I recall, that group got along just fine by keeping to themselves. It was interesting to read this post because you see that is what the majority of EVE players are. Hell do you think that you get many super cool athletic supermodels playing this game (aside from me and my 20 gfs ofc)? And yet I have felt that a lot of GS posts are like the "cool" kids taking the **** out of the "uncool" kids, i.e. 'lol at u guys taking a stupid game so seriously'. I feel sorry for people who happened to get introduced to this game through the SA forums rather than stumbling across it becuase its a really great game and the politics etc are a big part of that and you are really missing out on a lot.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.08.07 12:59:00 - [308] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Stuff Now you're just derailing the thread. You should know by now that your rhetoric doesn't impress me in the slightest. The reason alliances run NBSI is very simple: they've generally fought hard for control of the region(s) they're occupying and the resources therein, and they have no desire to lose that control through sloppy management, or to allow others to benefit from their work without permission. It's a simple question of control, not of power. I realise it's probably hard to grasp if your 0.0 experience is limited almost entirely to living out of a single NPC station in an unclaimed border region, but with the current 0.0 alliance game, well, you snooze you lose.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.07 13:20:00 - [309] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Now you're just derailing the thread. You should know by now that your rhetoric doesn't impress me in the slightest. Heh, the difference between rhetoric and "fact" is in the eye of the beholder Joerd - we've got entirely different interpretations of the same situations and dynamics and while I can understand yours certainly its still entirely reasonable to debate this in a thread asking the kind of questions this one does. Quote: The reason alliances run NBSI is very simple: they've generally fought hard for control of the region(s) they're occupying and the resources therein, and they have no desire to lose that control through sloppy management, or to allow others to benefit from their work without permission. Which is you spinning up the authoritarian agenda of power and control to look sexy on the recruitment posters but its still profoundly hierarchical and founded on the desire to command and bring others to submission. (which is pretty much what I said above) -> I think you are just trying to put a more "heroic" face on tyranny Joerd. Quote: It's a simple question of control, not of power. ! since when has control not been about power? You're just juggling semantics here surely. Quote: I realise it's probably hard to grasp if your 0.0 experience is limited almost entirely to living out of a single NPC station in an unclaimed border region, but with the current 0.0 alliance game, well, you snooze you lose. I think you mean if my entire 0.0 experience is "limited" to only shooting the people who shoot at me, only fighting the people who want to restrict my liberty and otherwise being prepared to coexist and trade with neutrals without demanding they kneel and show respect and obedience for my huge spaceship and epic combat skills ... and seriously Joerd, JF fought TTI and the PA so guys like you could enjoy the frontier, lets not pretend I wasn't shooting space tyrants when you were at flight school eh? And of course this issue remains entirely on topic with the thread since its a discussion of how adopting the NBSI methodology betrays the expressed desire of the Goons to oppose big-dog authority figures on the frontier. This is a thread about where Goonfleet went wrong. This is a big element of where I think they went wrong. Disagree and debate by all means but please don't fall into the disingenous practise of crying "off topic" when the discusson goes places you don't want to see it go. _________________
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.08.07 13:52:00 - [310] /me sighs... Ok. First, it is OT. I realise it's tangentially relevant but this discussion has no direct relevance to the discussion that was going on in the previous ten or so pages Second, the difference between rhetoric and fact is that facts are raw data and rhetoric is raw data dressed up in fancy clothes. I'm not saying there that I dispute your facts, I'm saying that saying "pay court and homage to the sitting authority" when what you actually mean is "negotiate positive standings" just makes it harder to dig actual facts out of your statements. I'm expressing a preference for plain English. Third, no control is not power. A puppet Emperor has absolute power but no actual control. Moreover, in the context, the point is that degree of control is not proportional to amount of power - all control requires is that people do what you want, it requires no formal acknowledgement or deference, which seems to be what you're most upset about. Fourth, I'm not denying that you've been more active in 0.0 in the past, I'm just saying that the current status quo, with POS wars and Sov and the like, tilts the playing field far more in the direction of NBSI politics, and by extension away from the platform you're building your arguments on. Things have moved on and you're out of touch because you're still living in the past.
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.07 14:08:00 - [311] I think Toastius has missed you Jasmine Oh and I think where goonfleet went wrong was nothing too complicated. They just thought they were special. Remedial got abit of hubris and overextended them. Public image backfired. Combine 1-3 and Everyone turned on them. -> Back to square one.
Dray Caldari Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.08.07 14:37:00 - [312] Ive always thought of Goonfleet as an Eve radio army that dosent fly nub frigates and thats as far as it went, so be it Goonfleet or ERA I'll set them to L.O.S (Laugh on sight).
Tarkan Kador Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.08.07 18:36:00 - [313] Originally by: Loka I hope none of you will leave, but probably learned something about EVE. Stay behind what you say on forums or ingame and be prepared to pay the price for your mistakes or things you commit. As soon you leave your Noob Corp and join a player driven corp, you will be responsible for the name the corp stands for. If the corp doesnt react in a way which suits you, you should leave it. Ultimately, it is up to each subscriber to decide whether or not they wish to stay, and submit themselves and their corporate relations to being judged and punished by this community. We already pay a price for this experience in the form of $20.00 initial, and $15.00 monthly. Its a fee that is non-refundable, and we are going to have to decide whether or not we are going to regret paying it. If players have the ability to make the price we pay for EVE a miserable one because of being offended by something, then the question on our minds is if the players who can make the game miserable for us are easily offended. If they are, then chances are we will be made miserable, and we should not continue. If players have the ability to punish offences, then the question becomes whether or not these punishments will make us regret paying for months on end. If they do, then chances are we will simply regret staying with the game. If players have the ability to punish us for things that were said in the past, then the question becomes how long in the past are they going to go, and how obscure does the point have to be. If even the slightest thing, at any time ever can cause misery whenever the punishers see fit, then chances are every one of us, at every time has said something that will justify griefing us, and we should leave now for a community that is more tolerant. If players who are offended in this community are going to never be placated easily for being offended, then subscribers are going to have to decide whether or not it is even worth it to be in a game where each decision yields the most uncompromising response. People cannot act in a realm where each action has extreme consequences that are out of proportion to the act itself. If we are going to be held accountable for things outside of the game and the forums, then subscribers are going to have to ask themselves if their conduct at fanfest will have game consequences, or if their conduct in the real world will have game consequences. If I date the sister of someone in Lotka Volterra, and she gets offended at me, is that now a game issue? If I am a member of a political party that someone in BoB takes offense to, is that now a game issue? If players are going to be held accountable for the actions of others they are associated with, then the question becomes how close does the association have to be, and how grave does the action have to be to illicit a griefing against the one who has done no action? If I am going to be held responsible for players who share my corporate identity, its just all the more reason not to be identified with any corp. After all, it is not the offender that pays my sub fee, it is me. Just as BoB is judging GoonSwarm, we subscribers are judging EVE's community, and we are going to have to decide for ourselves if this game's code of conduct is too subjective today, and too uncompromising to have fun for a good value. You are right that we don't have player justice in this form in other games. But that doesn't mean that the justice is good and fair, simply because it is made by players. The point I'm trying to make is that these are important matters to many here in EVE who are looking at this situation and saying to themselves, "if it happens to the 2700 member GoonSwarm, will it happen to me?" I'm certainly asking those questions of myself at a time when I'm debating whether or not I want to put in more time and money here.
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.07 19:28:00 - [314] /me is amazed that this whine-fest has gone on so long even after the Goons stopped posting. The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored)
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.07 19:30:00 - [315] Originally by: Tarkan Kador Originally by: Loka I hope none of you will leave, but probably learned something about EVE. Stay behind what you say on forums or ingame and be prepared to pay the price for your mistakes or things you commit. As soon you leave your Noob Corp and join a player driven corp, you will be responsible for the name the corp stands for. If the corp doesnt react in a way which suits you, you should leave it. stuff Its a harsh game, actions and words can have real negitive impact on you. Conflict to this lvl is pretty rare though. From what I have seen of this conflict (reading from both sides) it was not just one thing but a mutlitde of things. The sig was just the straw that broke the camals back. But yeah your reputation will follow you and is important...but unless you already done something toscrew it up its not something I would worry abot to much... If you take worring abot something thats not yet happened in game to its extreme then why ever undock...yo could lose your ship... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.07 20:00:00 - [316] Originally by: Tarkan Kador <snip> Don't overdramatise. BoB does not wardec every smacktalker we run across ingame. We do however believe that certain lines are not to be crossed, and will take positive action to ensure that those that do face the consequences. As long as people don't cross that line we put about two miles behind the spot at which there's no longer any reason to consider the offender sound of mind, you'll be just fine. Old blog
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.07 20:14:00 - [317] Originally by: Devilish Ledoux /me is amazed that this whine-fest has gone on so long even after the Goons stopped posting. They just switched back to using alts. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Lady Zirconia Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.07 20:34:00 - [318] Edited by: Lady Zirconia on 07/08/2006 20:44:40 Firstly, well spoken, Miss Jasmine. I believe you made all your points quite well, though I fear that there are no longer any Goons reading this thread to share in your wisdom. At some point, I believe that your "nerdie" points became too much of a headache for them to read. You have given us all a much needed perspective on the history of New Eden, which I consider to be very important. But just in case they are still reading... In my opinion (as a neutral bystander), which for those of you who are interested is purely based on reading the posts of the Goons themselves (to be fair to them): GoonFleet are clearly nothing other than a bunch of newbies who invaded 0.0. They fought, they got their @sses handed to them, and now they are whining that BoB has wardec'd them. Many of the comments made in this thread by the Goons have clearly painted themselves as ignorant of the history of the alliances and how fast things change actually. Which is nothing to be ashamed of, since most of them are after all new to the game. Most new EVE players though, have the sense to stay in Empire for a while, while they learn about the dangers of New Eden. Not all the dangers come in the form of turrets and launchers btw. But the clangers some of them actually believe which I find most amusing are things like: 1) They are the "only" alliance able to take on BoB. Evidently they are so new to the game they have never heard of any other alliances. Why dont you guys actually read some of the threads in the alliance forums which DONT have to do with the Goons so that you can learn about whats actually happening outside your little region. 2) Some of them actually believe that theres some kind of stasis that 0.0 is frozen in. My god, you nubbins, do you realize how much the political topography of 0.0 has changed in 6 months. I'm pretty sure, it will change as much in the next 6 months. But noooo, we need GoonFleet, our saviours, to change the status quo. pffff. 3) Nobody else has ever formed gangs of cheap t1 ships and nobody has ever blobbed before. Omg where DOES that term come from? 4) Some Goon nublet even posted something about "i dont care what you do because im a mission runner in empire". Hahahaha. Let me introduce you to these things, they are called War Declaration and Locator Agents. 5) Some of them actually believe BoB needs ANY reason to wardec them. And then bother to debate what it is. And then some people complain that BoB is mean and driving the poor newbies out of the game...well maybe they should have stayed in Empire then like CCP intended for newbies. Plenty of newbies learn the ropes just fine, this isnt some horrible trend of newbie destruction - just ****y newbie destruction 6) Some of them are surprised that once you have an Alliance ticker next to your name, your actions always always reflect on that alliance. I dont really know how they cope in real life without knowing that your actions reflect on whatever organization you belong to. 7) Some of them believe that they should defend their own trash as fiercely as they would themselves, instead of kicking them out and apologizing. (Yes some apologized, but still others found it acceptable to defend them.) How does a society cope without disciplining/ostracizing its trash? Oh lets all defend our murderers, they are after all citizens of [insert your nationality here]. And finally, for some Goon comments, made no doubt in the heat of stupidity, which do nothing but break my immersion (which I also pay for btw, its not just your monthly payment which counts) - see you in space, bring guns.
Heldane Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.08.07 20:36:00 - [319] Edited by: Heldane on 07/08/2006 20:36:42 So now the story is that the sig was the 'last straw'? I'm sorry but I don't recall hearing any previous reasons for this attempted genocide apart from something Remedial did over a year ago before GS's inception. From what the earlier posts by BoB members stated it was the ensuing insults post sig drama that brought this about. I am not in support of GS or their horrid slandering of the departed, but honestly as the days go by the BoB spin gets more and more inconsistant. GS has long since ceased commenting on the subject (likely due to a much needed gag order by their leadership since their posting barrage has all but stopped entirely) and BoB members still continue to argue and attempt to justify their position. This sort of action insinuates some level of deciet or untruthfullness behind their motives. When I first read about GS's outrageous slandering of SirMolle's friend I was very much in BoB's moral corner. Now a little over a week later I am not so sure about the purity of their actions and this scourge campaign against the entirety of the GS fleet. I suppose I have the luxury of being on the outside looking in and can only speak on speculation, but as the time goes on and the self congratulatory backslapping, as well as the sheer arrogance displayed by many of BoB's members continues I am drawn to question much of what has transpired in a differant light.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.07 20:45:00 - [320] Originally by: Heldane Edited by: Heldane on 07/08/2006 20:36:42 So now the story is that the sig was the 'last straw'? I'm sorry but I don't recall hearing any previous reasons for this attempted genocide apart from something Remedial did over a year ago before GS's inception. From what the earlier posts by BoB members stated it was the ensuing insults post sig drama that brought this about. I am not in support of GS or their horrid slandering of the departed, but honestly as the days go by the BoB spin gets more and more inconsistant. GS has long since ceased commenting on the subject (likely due to a much needed gag order by their leadership since their posting barrage has all but stopped entirely) and BoB members still continue to argue and attempt to justify their position. This sort of action insinuates some level of deciet or untruthfullness behind their motives. When I first read about GS's outrageous slandering of SirMolle's friend I was very much in BoB's moral corner. Now a little over a week later I am not so sure about the purity of their actions and this scourge campaign against the entirety of the GS fleet. I suppose I have the luxury of being on the outside looking in and can only speak on speculation, but as the time goes on and the self congratulatory backslapping, as well as the sheer arrogance displayed by many of BoB's members continues I am drawn to question much of what has transpired in a differant light. Trust me, the whole thing was not the comming together of a master plan. We had to cut short our planned ops, delaying them indefinately, in order to settle this score. If you had access to the BoB forums you would know that the outrage was very real, and that it was not a staged excuse to attack the goons. If we wanted to attack them, then we would have done so at a time that better suited us, and without it having to get all personal. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Padijun Siger	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:00:00 - [321] Originally by: Lady Zirconia Edited by: Lady Zirconia on 07/08/2006 20:46:50 Firstly, well spoken, Miss Jasmine. I believe you made all your points quite well, though I fear that there are no longer any Goons reading this thread to share in your wisdom... i've read some pretty ignorant statments about goonfleet in my time, and this one takes the cake for at least the entire month of august
Heldane Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:01:00 - [322] Originally by: Avon Trust me, the whole thing was not the comming together of a master plan. We had to cut short our planned ops, delaying them indefinately, in order to settle this score. If you had access to the BoB forums you would know that the outrage was very real, and that it was not a staged excuse to attack the goons. If we wanted to attack them, then we would have done so at a time that better suited us, and without it having to get all personal. Alright, I can fully believe that the outrage over what was done was real enough, I was appalled myself and I did not have the honor of knowing the man. However, what of the myriad previous infractions by GS that supposedly brought things to a point where the sig incident caused it to boil over into this purge campaign? I recall posts by BoB supporting GS's actions in Cloud Ring just days previous to this incident with no hint of malice or ill will towards them. I realize I am not entitled to an answer from anyone as I am merely a subjective spectator in this conflict and I appreciate your response, but surely you can see where questions might be raised by those looking at this situation from an unbiased standpoint.
VCBee 515	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:18:00 - [323] Originally by: The Mittani 1.5 years ago: Rem makes fun of Smoske, drama thread created. 9 months ago: Remedial forms Goonfleet. 1 month ago: GoonSwarm invades Cloud Ring by accident. 2 days ago: Climax of the XZH campaign announced on eve-o. 1 day ago: SirMolle decides it's time to go to war against GoonSwarm because of 'Remedial' and the 'honor of his dead friend' due to a 5-month old signature of Tet's. Right. If you really gave half a care about the memory of your dead friend, you'd have crushed Remedial and anything he started ages ago. But now, when it suits your pragmatic military interests (and that's fine, I'd be attacking us and D2 too right now, it makes perfect sense and I'm not being sarcastic) you attempt to cloak your motivations in 'justice', ressurect a grievance that has been around forever, and proclaim to the heavens that said grievance must be satisfied. Then we satisfied your grievance by Tet apologizing, Cefte (our official spokesperson) apologizing on behalf of the Swarm, and then kicking Tetsujin. And you kept going. Now 'oh, it's personal' or 'but but REMEDIAL' is shown to be a thin excuse made after the fact, and more and more of the community are disgusted by your banal, cynical attempts to build a cassus belli in an internet space game over a 'friend' who actually died in real life. Think about that. Posted by The Mittani 1 week ago. Outrage? You decide.
Lady Zirconia Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:30:00 - [324] Originally by: Padijun Siger i've read some pretty ignorant statments about goonfleet in my time, and this one takes the cake for at least the entire month of august Hmmm, must be a Goon. How can I tell? Because they are so new they dont even understand the forum rules yet. For your convenience: Quote: Posting with an unidentified alt in this forum is prohibited, if you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. After a short investigation, I discovered ofcourse that you are an ex-Goon. What happened? Can't take the heat in 0.0?
Heldane Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:35:00 - [325] Do not mistake my questions as sympathy for the goons. What was done by members of that organization after the fact was absolutley horrid and they deserved to be punished, but at this point it appears more like BoB is simply flexing its considerable muscle due more likely, in my humble opinion, to a slightly grandiose and inflammatory comment made by Remedial in that profanity laced diatribe called a speech that was released here concerning their war against D2 just days before this incident. If I recall correctly in said speech there was a bold statement concerning large alliances in general but going so far as to actually name BoB and thus aroused their ire.
Drogos Caldari Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:46:00 - [326] After reading through a ridiculous number of posts, I've come to the conclusion that the single greatest thing that annoys me about GS is that a large number of their members are attempting to grief the entire world of EvE. To whit: "It's just an internet spaceship game, why are you getting so upset?" "We play the game how we want. We pay our monthly fee just like everyone else." After some thought, it seems to be a product of wanting to be of the community, but not a part of the community. They are, effectively, a community within a community, and they define themselves by that alternate, non-EvE identity first and foremost. (By this I mean SA forum membership.)
Padijun Siger	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:56:00 - [327] Originally by: Lady Zirconia Originally by: Padijun Siger i've read some pretty ignorant statments about goonfleet in my time, and this one takes the cake for at least the entire month of august Hmmm, must be a Goon. How can I tell? Because they are so new they dont even understand the forum rules yet. For your convenience: Quote: Posting with an unidentified alt in this forum is prohibited, if you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. After a short investigation, I discovered ofcourse that you are an ex-Goon. What happened? Can't take the heat in 0.0? gee i sure hope you washed that foot before you jammed it in your mouth and by the way, goonswarm isn't the only corp/alliance goons are in
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.07 23:07:00 - [328] Originally by: Joerd Toastius /me sighs... Oh don't sigh baby you know you love it! Quote: First, it is OT. I realise it's tangentially relevant but this discussion has no direct relevance to the discussion that was going on in the previous ten or so pages Lets agree to disagree, no point belabouring the point. I think its On topic you think its not, we're not going to agree so why waste bandwidth on this irrelevent point. Quote: Second, the difference between rhetoric and fact is that facts are raw data and rhetoric is raw data dressed up in fancy clothes. I'm not saying there that I dispute your facts, I'm saying that saying "pay court and homage to the sitting authority" when what you actually mean is "negotiate positive standings" just makes it harder to dig actual facts out of your statements. I'm expressing a preference for plain English. Well, negotiating positive standings is what we do Joerd - but we aren't doing it from a position of weakness and if you refuse we end up shooting you and doing exactly what we want to anyways. The problem is that very new or combat-nervous corps and individuals don't often have that option and they need to walk on eggshells and bow and sc***to avoid anoying the sitting authority figure administrating an NBSI regime. Of course its an example of rhetorical bias either way - I'm obviously trying to paint NBSI landlords as the tyrannical horrors I think they are while you are trying to represent them as perfectly justified and respectable products of the prevailing environment. No point railing against the natural human tendency to put ones own causes in a favourable light. Quote: Third, no control is not power. A puppet Emperor has absolute power but no actual control. Surely a puppet emperor has neither power nor control? The fact the pupeteer could remove the guy at any time is pretty relevent. Quote: Moreover, in the context, the point is that degree of control is not proportional to amount of power - all control requires is that people do what you want, it requires no formal acknowledgement or deference, which seems to be what you're most upset about. I think you are mistaking "control" for "influence" there. And don't get me wrong, I'm not "upset" I just loathe tin-pot dictators in cheap suits. Quote:** Fourth, I'm not denying that you've been more active in 0.0 in the past, I'm just saying that the current status quo, with POS wars and Sov and the like, tilts the playing field far more in the direction of NBSI politics, and by extension away from the platform you're building your arguments on. Things have moved on and you're out of touch because you're still living in the past. Well, living in the past is spookily like remaining consistent to one's core beliefs you know Joerd. I'm entirely aware that the frontier is currently dominated by NBSI politics - I know its the easy route, I know its popular with the tin-pot tyrants etc etc. But hey, I've got 48m skillpoints says I'm right and you're wrong and I'll have fun debating this stuff till doomsday. Anyways, whats a sitting authoritarian state without an anarcho-capitalist insurgency movement brewing rebellious thoughs eh? But you know, seriously, you are rather making my argument for me here. By representing the NBSI territorial control thing as the default state of 0.0 and defacto government of choice for the powers on the frontier you are proving my point that it represents a dreadfully banal and uniform prospect for expansion into 0.0. My central argument throughout this thread has been that the Goons weren't actually doing anything new and missed a big opportunity to actually strike a blow against the sitting old boys network they abhor. But by aping those existing philosophies they are just conforming to the dominant memetics of the frontier and becoming just one more cut-price imperial movement. Revolutionaries need to wear different clothes ... _________________
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.07 23:08:00 - [329] Originally by: Fred0 I think Toastius has missed you Jasmine Oh and I think where goonfleet went wrong was nothing too complicated. They just thought they were special. Remedial got abit of hubris and overextended them. Public image backfired. Combine 1-3 and Everyone turned on them. -> Back to square one. Yeah I get that impression too Fred0. I'm infectious like that _________________
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.07 23:15:00 - [330] Originally by: Lady Zirconia Firstly, well spoken, Miss Jasmine. I believe you made all your points quite well, though I fear that there are no longer any Goons reading this thread to share in your wisdom. At some point, I believe that your "nerdie" points became too much of a headache for them to read. Why thank you! But to be honest, I've not been unimpressed by the standard of debate some of the Goons are coming up with. While all alliances have their bad eggs and large ones comparatively more, its clear that some of the SA people are actually pretty well spoken and worth talking too I think. The point I keep trying to push across though is that Eve is a game thats played on many levels and its a waste of the potential of the thing to treat it just like a random "internet spaceship game" and disavow IC politics and the intrigue of public opinion and intrigues and scandals and such. I'd dearly love to see a significant new player in the sphere of player alliances to do something different - its a crying shame to see everyone doing identikit nbsi things and a huge alliance of novices with attitude struck me as having the perfect opportunity to truly fight the prevailing wisdom of eve's 0.0 tyrants for fun and deeper political challenge. Fingers crossed some good people survive the destruction of Remedial's legacy and go on to do interesting things in Eve. _________________

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