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Is this theft on the grandest of grand scales? Or Justification?

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Gatedeath	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:22:00 - [1] Okay. I will not use names in this post. I will just use fakes. The situation i will term as Hypothetical ( though it is happening now ) and I am curious as to the E-O universe of opinion. In this example, we will have Corp A and Corp B. Player 1, player 2, player 3 and so forth. Corp A decides to start a capitol ship BPO program. So, players 1 and 2, go out and mine 90% of the 18 bil isk neede dto buy the appropriate BPO's. This is termd as a "corp" project, but as usual, 1-2 people do 90% opf all the work. Players 3, 4 and 5 also donate a good chunk of cash, but nothing compared to players 1 and 2. After some time. The corp, due to politics, splits up into corp A and corp B. They still have a relationship and form an alliance together. Corp B is basically production. Players 1 and 2, ( who did 90% of the work ) are now in Corp B. The BPO's are held in Corp B also, as per arrangement with Corp A. Corp A is the PVP side. players 3, 4, and 5 stay here. Over time. 1 member in Corp A quits, now leaving players 4 and 5 in corp A, and 1 and 2 in corp B. Time ensues. Due to ploitics, and abuse of Corp b's members by Corp A, corp B decides to leave the alliance. Corp A demands the BPO's back so they can sell them and cash out. Corp B says they are not willing to sell out the BPO's. Corp A says that since the project was started under Corp A's banner, that Corp B, and players 1 and 2 are entitled to nothing other than a pat on the back, even though they did 90% of all the work, and contributed 90% of the funds. Since they decided to leave Corp A in the first place. The BPO's were ALWAYS Corp A's property regardless of who did the work, and players 1 and 2 in corp B deserve nothing. Corp A then tells Corp B, they are willing to sell them the BPO's at 75% of the market cost. Corp B refuse's since they consider tyhe BPO's MOSTLY thiers. They counter offer to give Corp B, several BPC's 2 bil in isk, and a spare BPO. This adds up to roughtly 7 bil isk in assets. Corp A says no way, then demands the BPO's back. Corp B says not going to happen. Corp A says player 1 and 2 are corp theifs now because they are keeping the BPO's. Even though players 1-2 were 90% responsible for the work and purchase of those BBO's. So the basic question is this. If You do work for a corp, under thier banner. And you for example, mine the mins for, and build 100 battleships. If you leave your corp, are you entitled to the ships? cash for them? Or should you have to give all 100 battleships to your old corp because it was "a corp project" Even though you did almost all of the work, and put in most of the time. I know this all seems a little convoluded. Corp B says no way. They will however
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:26:00 - [2] Sounds like a fairly common procedure. One side becomes two and they argue over previously mutual assets. Marriage councelling might be a promising carreer in EVE. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
acompton Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:27:00 - [3] two words... Judge Judy
Shittake RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:31:00 - [4] What if player 1 who is now in corp B has put MORE of his personal ISK into said Capital BPO project and corp A is unwilling to even discuss a fair buyout? What if the leadership of corp A is unwilling to even discuss a buyout plan at all? What if player 1 offered to continue the project that was their "baby" for a year and help corp A with Capital builds, copies, and 2/3-3/4 of all the ISK from the copy sales so the project would not be cut in half?
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:35:00 - [5] Flip a coin. It won't make them happy but at least it's a solution.
Sadayiel Caldari Tropical Killer Bananas	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:35:00 - [6] since i'm not sure about how corps work i may give a basic idea. Corp B did most of job, so it's fine even if they keep just give back to corp A their original invest so everything runs fine. (since it's corp B who it's gonna keep using th Bpo instead just sell) think it's the most fair way to solve it if not even Corp A (for vendetta) or Corp B (the one making profit right now) can hire mercs to give a lesson each other. Did i tell someone i'm a merc ? -------------------Sig----------------------- WE ARE MERCS, Contact QUADIX LEIME OR ALEXIE STUKOV for further info. [url="http://www.starslipcrisis.com/comics/ssc20060518_pirate.gif"
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:36:00 - [7] Non-capitalist corp == Marriage. Though commi corp among friends works very well but when ** happens, ** happens. ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:39:00 - [8] Knowing the corporations in question, it's an issue of both sides being partially right, and the evil side is the one you're not on. A solution would be to have Corp A receive the BPOs in return for the isk Corp B put in to the project, or simply keep production going with mutual benefits. My Guides
Your Name	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:48:00 - [9] These things should really be settled before they start. In my old corp, they issued corp credits. So you mined for x million units, the corp owes your x million corp credits. You donated X isk, you got X credits. Won a BPO lottery, you get X percent of all profits on that item (corp will biuld and distribute). That way when the corp project turns a profit, it can payoff the people that contributed. This becomes a problem when there is no payoff, so a pvp corp that plays for fun (not a merc corp getting paid), and has a builder, he will never truly be paid for his work.
Micia N.A.S.A. Cobra Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:48:00 - [10] Declare war. Duke it out. Winner takes all. Lessons learned. (maybe) _______ Experience the good life in pirate-free Empire Space
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:48:00 - [11] Edited by: Arkanor on 09/08/2006 22:48:48 You are in corp B, judging by the tone of that post. Keep the BPOs, Posession is 7/10ths of the law, military strength is the other 3, and if they aren't willing to exercise it let them rot. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Guvante GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:54:00 - [12] Edited by: Guvante on 09/08/2006 22:55:22 From the sounds of it, both Corps agree that Corp B just keeping the BPOs and screwing over Corp A is not fair, but can not decide exactly how much Corp A is entitled to. If there is enough liquid funds availible in Corp B, I would recommend going down the road of buying Corp A's portion of the BPO's off of them for some price. Although finding what price is appropriate will be difficult, with time and a little discussion, you should be able to work something out between the two corps... I.E. from the sounds of it (Assuming Corp B really did put forth 90% of the funds in the beginning) a payout of 25% to Corp A would be a good starting point, seeing as that includes the 10% that Corp A put in, and an additional 15% for being in Corp A at the time. Not saying this is the best price, but just picking any price to get the discussion going will be better than nothing IMO. Edit: Forgot to mention, not corp theft in the slightest, although you should probably resolve this matter beyond saying "Screw you" either way you were simply taking what the other corp would simply sell anyway.
Cheice Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:56:00 - [13] If you guys are leaving the alliance take everything. Butter up your former allies and see if they'll let you take any more stuff. Lie as much as necessary to get as much as you can. This game is unpoliced. There's no morals in Eve. Your only regrets later will be not getting as much as you could have.
Gatedeath	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:30:00 - [14] Edited by: Gatedeath on 09/08/2006 23:31:18 Originally by: Guvante Edited by: Guvante on 09/08/2006 22:55:22 From the sounds of it, both Corps agree that Corp B just keeping the BPOs and screwing over Corp A is not fair, but can not decide exactly how much Corp A is entitled to. If there is enough liquid funds availible in Corp B, I would recommend going down the road of buying Corp A's portion of the BPO's off of them for some price. Although finding what price is appropriate will be difficult, with time and a little discussion, you should be able to work something out between the two corps... I.E. from the sounds of it (Assuming Corp B really did put forth 90% of the funds in the beginning) a payout of 25% to Corp A would be a good starting point, seeing as that includes the 10% that Corp A put in, and an additional 15% for being in Corp A at the time. Not saying this is the best price, but just picking any price to get the discussion going will be better than nothing IMO. Edit: Forgot to mention, not corp theft in the slightest, although you should probably resolve this matter beyond saying "Screw you" either way you were simply taking what the other corp would simply sell anyway. I would agree. But Corp A's position is that corp B's holdings in the BPO's is 0%, and Corp A owns 100% of them. Therefore they have nothing to negotiate. also, I might add, that in the midddle of trying to hold talks on this issue, The CEO from Corp A decided to blow some of the unsuspecting people from Corp B out of the sky. At that point, Corp B gave Corp A the one spare BPO, and told them to fvck off, they get nothing. So now corp A says corp B are thieves.
Twilight Moon Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:34:00 - [15] Corp B sends the BPO's to ALT's in Corp C (who Corp A doesnt know about) Players 1 and 2 win. In short, if you arent in B now....you're ******. ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Shittake RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:38:00 - [16] Edited by: **take on 09/08/2006 23:39:25 Ok, enough of this crap. Corp A = Occassus Republica (OCC) Corp B = RONA Deepspace (RONAD) Player 1 = me It's very simple. I joined OCC a year ago, suggested we start a Dreadnaught BPO project for the fighters. Most everyone said "why do we need those" but I convinced them and the CEO that they will be needed down the road (which has proven to be right). So the CEO said OK and one of his directors said "whatever" and went back to ganking miners. I then started mining for months on end, a couple other guys started to help (who are now in RONAD) and right near the very end, we had 1-2 weeks were perhaps 3-4 people would help. We finished the collection that we needed to build the Revelation. I then continued to mine and collect trailer spanw mins to build 2 Revelations. The ganking director said "I want a carrier, I want a carrier" so I started mining again - this time with only 1 other guy to help. We got those 3 remaining BPOs and built him a carrier. Fast forward 10 months. I had left OCC and started RONAD, we were in POE alliance together. I retained possession of the BPOs as my characters were the only ones who could sufficiently research and build from them. I sold of some of my personal assetts and had an extra 7 billion laying around and asked then if they would like to add to the Capital Ship options for all of our members. They said sure. So I spent 6 billion on additional Capital BPOs so we ALL would have more options. Mind you that during this time, if they needed copies I provided them copies and they received 2/3-3/4 of ALL ISK derived from copy sales (varied as I was recouping some costs for the 20 ME research slots I kept running 24/7). 6 weeks later we leave POE alliance because of crappy treatment by certain OCC leaders. They immediately want back the BPOs they claim as %100 theirs - %90 of the ISK used to purchase those BPOs was generated by me and a couple other guys now in RONAD. I suggested we NOT break up the collection, it's better as a whole for both sides even though we are now red to each other. They said no. I made several offers for a FAIR buyout. They said no, it's all ours, gimme. Add to this I was hosting their alliance web site free of charge, and offered to do that into the future even though we were no longer allied, but after a few weeks of being called names and being accused of being a theif, I could no longer handle being yelled at by a web site I paid for - so I turned it off. I have tried like hell for a FAIR buyout. I even offered MORE than a FAIR buyout situation. They have responded with name calling. They have behaved like children with a total lack of respect for the time I put into the BPO project. It's no wonder why they started this thread without their name attached to it.
Shittake RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:42:00 - [17] Edited by: **take on 09/08/2006 23:42:18 Originally by: Gatedeath Edited by: Gatedeath on 09/08/2006 23:24:16 Okay. I will not use names in this post. By the way, post with your main.
Ijaz Viziam	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:43:00 - [18] This is Eve. Posession in 100% of the law.
Turin Caldari RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:46:00 - [19] <sigh> Did this really need to get dragged out here? But I guess its to late for that. The cat is out of the bag I guess. It seems though, that OCC didnt post this. Unless it was someone who is still in OCC who likes RONAD. The thread seems a bit slanted in RONADS favor through out the explanation though. ________________________________________________________
Brutus Julius	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:47:00 - [20] Tough call. prenup ftw
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:48:00 - [21] I think the logical course would be to estimate which individual players contributed how much towards the purchase of the BPO. Whichever corporation ends up with the highest total percentage of contribution would decide whether to sell the BPO and redistribute the money. Assuming that Corp B did contribute the most, they should be allowed to decide whether to keep the BPO and pay Corp A an amount matching their contribution, or sell the BPO to Corp A for the amount that the players in Corp B contributed. In short, it shouldn't matter what banner the BPO was purchased under. It only matters which players contributed to its purchase, and how much they contributed. This would be voided if there was an explicit agreement that the corporation would retain the BPO, no matter what the individual players did later. Of course, this is an open invitation for greedy CEOs to feed off their members' efforts. If you find yourself in a corp like this, leave. And possession is nine tenths of the law. And in Eve, it's ten tenths. The settlement I suggest is merely what I would do if I was the CEO of Corp B and I wanted to maintain goodwill with Corp A. If I didn't want to maintain relations ... then hey. The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored)
Shittake RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Devilish Ledoux I think the logical course would be to estimate which individual players contributed how much towards the purchase of the BPO. Whichever corporation ends up with the highest total percentage of contribution would decide whether to sell the BPO and redistribute the money. Assuming that Corp B did contribute the most, they should be allowed to decide whether to keep the BPO and pay Corp A an amount matching their contribution, or sell the BPO to Corp A for the amount that the players in Corp B contributed. In short, it shouldn't matter what banner the BPO was purchased under. It only matters which players contributed to its purchase, and how much they contributed. This would be voided if there was an explicit agreement that the corporation would retain the BPO, no matter what the individual players did later. Of course, this is an open invitation for greedy CEOs to feed off their members' efforts. If you find yourself in a corp like this, leave. And possession is nine tenths of the law. And in Eve, it's ten tenths. The settlement I suggest is merely what I would do if I was the CEO of Corp B and I wanted to maintain goodwill with Corp A. If I didn't want to maintain relations ... then hey. I computed exactly what each of our contribution levels were, offered that, they said NO. I then even offered a buyout situation where they would get ALMOST DOUBLE what they had put it, they said no. They also seemed to forget the personal ISK given to their members by me on many occassions, and ISK I just forked over without second guessing (not related to this project at all).
Jozeph Spinne F.T.L. Trading	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:57:00 - [23] Makes absolutely no bloody difference to me personally. As far as I am concerned, possession is 9/10 of the law. The fact that the 2 guys did most of the work for BPO and they have retained the control of the above-mentioned BPO and offered to settle things amicably, despite the refusal from the other guys, only supports them further. Anyway, if I was 'Corp A' I would settle for '%' of proceeds, better that way in the long run. Whatever the case may be, whoever holds the BPO at this time owns it for all intents and purposes.
ForumPoster	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:57:00 - [24] Edited by: ForumPoster on 10/08/2006 00:05:09 if its almost all your isk that brought the bpo's etc.. and started the whole process going then you certainly have the right to keep the bpo's cause you brought them with your own isk. Sounds like the other corp might just be using the fact that you were with them at the time to demand em back since it was a "corp" venture even you you footed the bill. If they are being completely unreasonable tell em where to stick it imo. Cause if they arent satisfied with a buyout of double what they deserve then they arent gonna budge until they get it all which is out of the question. They are just being greedy. Personally if i was recieving name calling and abuse id tell em all where they could shove it, block all the trouble makers and get on with my gaming. ~ FP This character has been created to protect the identity of the corp I am residing in within EVE. Any posts to the sound of "Post with your main!" will be met with swift, sharp, laughter from myself.
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:58:00 - [25] If that's the case, I say screw'em. You tried to be fair and they didn't want fair. So be unfair. Cut diplomatic ties. If you can't withstand a wardec, I'm sure you'll be able to afford the services of a fine mercenary corp. Just let "you brought this on yourself" be your mantra. And don't forget: Have FUN! The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored)
Caleb Paine Itchy Trigger Finger Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 00:08:00 - [26] Since we weren't there we can't tell what's true or not ut if it IS true, and after trying to negotiate they still won't budge/accept a reasonable offer... Stop playing nice, stop trying to put in effort where you don't have to. YOU have the BPO's, THEY don't want to take any money from you for something they don't have in their hangar, too bad for them. Keep the BPO's, keep the iskies, keep your webspace, just laugh at them and continue doing the thing you seem to do very well. ----------------- Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Aeaea XanoTech	Posted - 2006.08.10 00:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Devilish Ledoux If that's the case, I say screw'em. You tried to be fair and they didn't want fair. So be unfair. Cut diplomatic ties. If you can't withstand a wardec, I'm sure you'll be able to afford the services of a fine mercenary corp. Just let "you brought this on yourself" be your mantra. And don't forget: Have FUN! Right, except for they make up the alliance, so they have a bit more then "diplomatic ties," to keep.
Ozmodan Minmatar Lumeria Mu Explorations Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.10 01:39:00 - [28] Those players in Corp A are first class fools. They had a reasonable offer from Corp B who are holding all the cards since they have the bpo's and turned it down because they were being entirely unreasonable. Basically the only theives in this case are the people from Corp A, because they wanted value and refused to give even a token return value. Like most fools, Corp A deserves what they got, little. Learners permit still current
Shaikar Amarr	Posted - 2006.08.10 02:28:00 - [29] The BPO's ceased to be the property of Corp A when they left Corp A and a deal was arranged that gave Corp A chunk of the proceeds from sales from the BPO's. anything else regarding ownership needed to have been resolved at the time the BPO's left the original corp, and by all accounts this is exactly what happened. Assuming that as stated Corp A was still going to receive their percentage, well they weren't going to loose anything at all, until they decided to get greedy. Again, that assumes what is said is true, and tbh it doesn't really concern anyone beyond those involved.
Infinity Ziona Space Elves of Ragnoroth	Posted - 2006.08.10 02:34:00 - [30] Whats the ownership saying?? 'The alliance should not be a solo contentmobile' - Albert Einstein

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