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Is this theft on the grandest of grand scales? Or Justification?

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Gatedeath	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:22:00 - [1] Okay. I will not use names in this post. I will just use fakes. The situation i will term as Hypothetical ( though it is happening now ) and I am curious as to the E-O universe of opinion. In this example, we will have Corp A and Corp B. Player 1, player 2, player 3 and so forth. Corp A decides to start a capitol ship BPO program. So, players 1 and 2, go out and mine 90% of the 18 bil isk neede dto buy the appropriate BPO's. This is termd as a "corp" project, but as usual, 1-2 people do 90% opf all the work. Players 3, 4 and 5 also donate a good chunk of cash, but nothing compared to players 1 and 2. After some time. The corp, due to politics, splits up into corp A and corp B. They still have a relationship and form an alliance together. Corp B is basically production. Players 1 and 2, ( who did 90% of the work ) are now in Corp B. The BPO's are held in Corp B also, as per arrangement with Corp A. Corp A is the PVP side. players 3, 4, and 5 stay here. Over time. 1 member in Corp A quits, now leaving players 4 and 5 in corp A, and 1 and 2 in corp B. Time ensues. Due to ploitics, and abuse of Corp b's members by Corp A, corp B decides to leave the alliance. Corp A demands the BPO's back so they can sell them and cash out. Corp B says they are not willing to sell out the BPO's. Corp A says that since the project was started under Corp A's banner, that Corp B, and players 1 and 2 are entitled to nothing other than a pat on the back, even though they did 90% of all the work, and contributed 90% of the funds. Since they decided to leave Corp A in the first place. The BPO's were ALWAYS Corp A's property regardless of who did the work, and players 1 and 2 in corp B deserve nothing. Corp A then tells Corp B, they are willing to sell them the BPO's at 75% of the market cost. Corp B refuse's since they consider tyhe BPO's MOSTLY thiers. They counter offer to give Corp B, several BPC's 2 bil in isk, and a spare BPO. This adds up to roughtly 7 bil isk in assets. Corp A says no way, then demands the BPO's back. Corp B says not going to happen. Corp A says player 1 and 2 are corp theifs now because they are keeping the BPO's. Even though players 1-2 were 90% responsible for the work and purchase of those BBO's. So the basic question is this. If You do work for a corp, under thier banner. And you for example, mine the mins for, and build 100 battleships. If you leave your corp, are you entitled to the ships? cash for them? Or should you have to give all 100 battleships to your old corp because it was "a corp project" Even though you did almost all of the work, and put in most of the time. I know this all seems a little convoluded. Corp B says no way. They will however
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:26:00 - [2] Sounds like a fairly common procedure. One side becomes two and they argue over previously mutual assets. Marriage councelling might be a promising carreer in EVE. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
acompton Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:27:00 - [3] two words... Judge Judy
Shittake RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:31:00 - [4] What if player 1 who is now in corp B has put MORE of his personal ISK into said Capital BPO project and corp A is unwilling to even discuss a fair buyout? What if the leadership of corp A is unwilling to even discuss a buyout plan at all? What if player 1 offered to continue the project that was their "baby" for a year and help corp A with Capital builds, copies, and 2/3-3/4 of all the ISK from the copy sales so the project would not be cut in half?
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:35:00 - [5] Flip a coin. It won't make them happy but at least it's a solution.
Sadayiel Caldari Tropical Killer Bananas	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:35:00 - [6] since i'm not sure about how corps work i may give a basic idea. Corp B did most of job, so it's fine even if they keep just give back to corp A their original invest so everything runs fine. (since it's corp B who it's gonna keep using th Bpo instead just sell) think it's the most fair way to solve it if not even Corp A (for vendetta) or Corp B (the one making profit right now) can hire mercs to give a lesson each other. Did i tell someone i'm a merc ? -------------------Sig----------------------- WE ARE MERCS, Contact QUADIX LEIME OR ALEXIE STUKOV for further info. [url="http://www.starslipcrisis.com/comics/ssc20060518_pirate.gif"
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:36:00 - [7] Non-capitalist corp == Marriage. Though commi corp among friends works very well but when ** happens, ** happens. ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:39:00 - [8] Knowing the corporations in question, it's an issue of both sides being partially right, and the evil side is the one you're not on. A solution would be to have Corp A receive the BPOs in return for the isk Corp B put in to the project, or simply keep production going with mutual benefits. My Guides
Your Name	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:48:00 - [9] These things should really be settled before they start. In my old corp, they issued corp credits. So you mined for x million units, the corp owes your x million corp credits. You donated X isk, you got X credits. Won a BPO lottery, you get X percent of all profits on that item (corp will biuld and distribute). That way when the corp project turns a profit, it can payoff the people that contributed. This becomes a problem when there is no payoff, so a pvp corp that plays for fun (not a merc corp getting paid), and has a builder, he will never truly be paid for his work.
Micia N.A.S.A. Cobra Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:48:00 - [10] Declare war. Duke it out. Winner takes all. Lessons learned. (maybe) _______ Experience the good life in pirate-free Empire Space
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:48:00 - [11] Edited by: Arkanor on 09/08/2006 22:48:48 You are in corp B, judging by the tone of that post. Keep the BPOs, Posession is 7/10ths of the law, military strength is the other 3, and if they aren't willing to exercise it let them rot. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Guvante GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:54:00 - [12] Edited by: Guvante on 09/08/2006 22:55:22 From the sounds of it, both Corps agree that Corp B just keeping the BPOs and screwing over Corp A is not fair, but can not decide exactly how much Corp A is entitled to. If there is enough liquid funds availible in Corp B, I would recommend going down the road of buying Corp A's portion of the BPO's off of them for some price. Although finding what price is appropriate will be difficult, with time and a little discussion, you should be able to work something out between the two corps... I.E. from the sounds of it (Assuming Corp B really did put forth 90% of the funds in the beginning) a payout of 25% to Corp A would be a good starting point, seeing as that includes the 10% that Corp A put in, and an additional 15% for being in Corp A at the time. Not saying this is the best price, but just picking any price to get the discussion going will be better than nothing IMO. Edit: Forgot to mention, not corp theft in the slightest, although you should probably resolve this matter beyond saying "Screw you" either way you were simply taking what the other corp would simply sell anyway.
Cheice Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:56:00 - [13] If you guys are leaving the alliance take everything. Butter up your former allies and see if they'll let you take any more stuff. Lie as much as necessary to get as much as you can. This game is unpoliced. There's no morals in Eve. Your only regrets later will be not getting as much as you could have.
Gatedeath	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:30:00 - [14] Edited by: Gatedeath on 09/08/2006 23:31:18 Originally by: Guvante Edited by: Guvante on 09/08/2006 22:55:22 From the sounds of it, both Corps agree that Corp B just keeping the BPOs and screwing over Corp A is not fair, but can not decide exactly how much Corp A is entitled to. If there is enough liquid funds availible in Corp B, I would recommend going down the road of buying Corp A's portion of the BPO's off of them for some price. Although finding what price is appropriate will be difficult, with time and a little discussion, you should be able to work something out between the two corps... I.E. from the sounds of it (Assuming Corp B really did put forth 90% of the funds in the beginning) a payout of 25% to Corp A would be a good starting point, seeing as that includes the 10% that Corp A put in, and an additional 15% for being in Corp A at the time. Not saying this is the best price, but just picking any price to get the discussion going will be better than nothing IMO. Edit: Forgot to mention, not corp theft in the slightest, although you should probably resolve this matter beyond saying "Screw you" either way you were simply taking what the other corp would simply sell anyway. I would agree. But Corp A's position is that corp B's holdings in the BPO's is 0%, and Corp A owns 100% of them. Therefore they have nothing to negotiate. also, I might add, that in the midddle of trying to hold talks on this issue, The CEO from Corp A decided to blow some of the unsuspecting people from Corp B out of the sky. At that point, Corp B gave Corp A the one spare BPO, and told them to fvck off, they get nothing. So now corp A says corp B are thieves.
Twilight Moon Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:34:00 - [15] Corp B sends the BPO's to ALT's in Corp C (who Corp A doesnt know about) Players 1 and 2 win. In short, if you arent in B now....you're ******. ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Shittake RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:38:00 - [16] Edited by: **take on 09/08/2006 23:39:25 Ok, enough of this crap. Corp A = Occassus Republica (OCC) Corp B = RONA Deepspace (RONAD) Player 1 = me It's very simple. I joined OCC a year ago, suggested we start a Dreadnaught BPO project for the fighters. Most everyone said "why do we need those" but I convinced them and the CEO that they will be needed down the road (which has proven to be right). So the CEO said OK and one of his directors said "whatever" and went back to ganking miners. I then started mining for months on end, a couple other guys started to help (who are now in RONAD) and right near the very end, we had 1-2 weeks were perhaps 3-4 people would help. We finished the collection that we needed to build the Revelation. I then continued to mine and collect trailer spanw mins to build 2 Revelations. The ganking director said "I want a carrier, I want a carrier" so I started mining again - this time with only 1 other guy to help. We got those 3 remaining BPOs and built him a carrier. Fast forward 10 months. I had left OCC and started RONAD, we were in POE alliance together. I retained possession of the BPOs as my characters were the only ones who could sufficiently research and build from them. I sold of some of my personal assetts and had an extra 7 billion laying around and asked then if they would like to add to the Capital Ship options for all of our members. They said sure. So I spent 6 billion on additional Capital BPOs so we ALL would have more options. Mind you that during this time, if they needed copies I provided them copies and they received 2/3-3/4 of ALL ISK derived from copy sales (varied as I was recouping some costs for the 20 ME research slots I kept running 24/7). 6 weeks later we leave POE alliance because of crappy treatment by certain OCC leaders. They immediately want back the BPOs they claim as %100 theirs - %90 of the ISK used to purchase those BPOs was generated by me and a couple other guys now in RONAD. I suggested we NOT break up the collection, it's better as a whole for both sides even though we are now red to each other. They said no. I made several offers for a FAIR buyout. They said no, it's all ours, gimme. Add to this I was hosting their alliance web site free of charge, and offered to do that into the future even though we were no longer allied, but after a few weeks of being called names and being accused of being a theif, I could no longer handle being yelled at by a web site I paid for - so I turned it off. I have tried like hell for a FAIR buyout. I even offered MORE than a FAIR buyout situation. They have responded with name calling. They have behaved like children with a total lack of respect for the time I put into the BPO project. It's no wonder why they started this thread without their name attached to it.
Shittake RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:42:00 - [17] Edited by: **take on 09/08/2006 23:42:18 Originally by: Gatedeath Edited by: Gatedeath on 09/08/2006 23:24:16 Okay. I will not use names in this post. By the way, post with your main.
Ijaz Viziam	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:43:00 - [18] This is Eve. Posession in 100% of the law.
Turin Caldari RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:46:00 - [19] <sigh> Did this really need to get dragged out here? But I guess its to late for that. The cat is out of the bag I guess. It seems though, that OCC didnt post this. Unless it was someone who is still in OCC who likes RONAD. The thread seems a bit slanted in RONADS favor through out the explanation though. ________________________________________________________
Brutus Julius	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:47:00 - [20] Tough call. prenup ftw
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:48:00 - [21] I think the logical course would be to estimate which individual players contributed how much towards the purchase of the BPO. Whichever corporation ends up with the highest total percentage of contribution would decide whether to sell the BPO and redistribute the money. Assuming that Corp B did contribute the most, they should be allowed to decide whether to keep the BPO and pay Corp A an amount matching their contribution, or sell the BPO to Corp A for the amount that the players in Corp B contributed. In short, it shouldn't matter what banner the BPO was purchased under. It only matters which players contributed to its purchase, and how much they contributed. This would be voided if there was an explicit agreement that the corporation would retain the BPO, no matter what the individual players did later. Of course, this is an open invitation for greedy CEOs to feed off their members' efforts. If you find yourself in a corp like this, leave. And possession is nine tenths of the law. And in Eve, it's ten tenths. The settlement I suggest is merely what I would do if I was the CEO of Corp B and I wanted to maintain goodwill with Corp A. If I didn't want to maintain relations ... then hey. The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored)
Shittake RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Devilish Ledoux I think the logical course would be to estimate which individual players contributed how much towards the purchase of the BPO. Whichever corporation ends up with the highest total percentage of contribution would decide whether to sell the BPO and redistribute the money. Assuming that Corp B did contribute the most, they should be allowed to decide whether to keep the BPO and pay Corp A an amount matching their contribution, or sell the BPO to Corp A for the amount that the players in Corp B contributed. In short, it shouldn't matter what banner the BPO was purchased under. It only matters which players contributed to its purchase, and how much they contributed. This would be voided if there was an explicit agreement that the corporation would retain the BPO, no matter what the individual players did later. Of course, this is an open invitation for greedy CEOs to feed off their members' efforts. If you find yourself in a corp like this, leave. And possession is nine tenths of the law. And in Eve, it's ten tenths. The settlement I suggest is merely what I would do if I was the CEO of Corp B and I wanted to maintain goodwill with Corp A. If I didn't want to maintain relations ... then hey. I computed exactly what each of our contribution levels were, offered that, they said NO. I then even offered a buyout situation where they would get ALMOST DOUBLE what they had put it, they said no. They also seemed to forget the personal ISK given to their members by me on many occassions, and ISK I just forked over without second guessing (not related to this project at all).
Jozeph Spinne F.T.L. Trading	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:57:00 - [23] Makes absolutely no bloody difference to me personally. As far as I am concerned, possession is 9/10 of the law. The fact that the 2 guys did most of the work for BPO and they have retained the control of the above-mentioned BPO and offered to settle things amicably, despite the refusal from the other guys, only supports them further. Anyway, if I was 'Corp A' I would settle for '%' of proceeds, better that way in the long run. Whatever the case may be, whoever holds the BPO at this time owns it for all intents and purposes.
ForumPoster	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:57:00 - [24] Edited by: ForumPoster on 10/08/2006 00:05:09 if its almost all your isk that brought the bpo's etc.. and started the whole process going then you certainly have the right to keep the bpo's cause you brought them with your own isk. Sounds like the other corp might just be using the fact that you were with them at the time to demand em back since it was a "corp" venture even you you footed the bill. If they are being completely unreasonable tell em where to stick it imo. Cause if they arent satisfied with a buyout of double what they deserve then they arent gonna budge until they get it all which is out of the question. They are just being greedy. Personally if i was recieving name calling and abuse id tell em all where they could shove it, block all the trouble makers and get on with my gaming. ~ FP This character has been created to protect the identity of the corp I am residing in within EVE. Any posts to the sound of "Post with your main!" will be met with swift, sharp, laughter from myself.
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.09 23:58:00 - [25] If that's the case, I say screw'em. You tried to be fair and they didn't want fair. So be unfair. Cut diplomatic ties. If you can't withstand a wardec, I'm sure you'll be able to afford the services of a fine mercenary corp. Just let "you brought this on yourself" be your mantra. And don't forget: Have FUN! The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored)
Caleb Paine Itchy Trigger Finger Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 00:08:00 - [26] Since we weren't there we can't tell what's true or not ut if it IS true, and after trying to negotiate they still won't budge/accept a reasonable offer... Stop playing nice, stop trying to put in effort where you don't have to. YOU have the BPO's, THEY don't want to take any money from you for something they don't have in their hangar, too bad for them. Keep the BPO's, keep the iskies, keep your webspace, just laugh at them and continue doing the thing you seem to do very well. ----------------- Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Aeaea XanoTech	Posted - 2006.08.10 00:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Devilish Ledoux If that's the case, I say screw'em. You tried to be fair and they didn't want fair. So be unfair. Cut diplomatic ties. If you can't withstand a wardec, I'm sure you'll be able to afford the services of a fine mercenary corp. Just let "you brought this on yourself" be your mantra. And don't forget: Have FUN! Right, except for they make up the alliance, so they have a bit more then "diplomatic ties," to keep.
Ozmodan Minmatar Lumeria Mu Explorations Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.10 01:39:00 - [28] Those players in Corp A are first class fools. They had a reasonable offer from Corp B who are holding all the cards since they have the bpo's and turned it down because they were being entirely unreasonable. Basically the only theives in this case are the people from Corp A, because they wanted value and refused to give even a token return value. Like most fools, Corp A deserves what they got, little. Learners permit still current
Shaikar Amarr	Posted - 2006.08.10 02:28:00 - [29] The BPO's ceased to be the property of Corp A when they left Corp A and a deal was arranged that gave Corp A chunk of the proceeds from sales from the BPO's. anything else regarding ownership needed to have been resolved at the time the BPO's left the original corp, and by all accounts this is exactly what happened. Assuming that as stated Corp A was still going to receive their percentage, well they weren't going to loose anything at all, until they decided to get greedy. Again, that assumes what is said is true, and tbh it doesn't really concern anyone beyond those involved.
Infinity Ziona Space Elves of Ragnoroth	Posted - 2006.08.10 02:34:00 - [30] Whats the ownership saying?? 'The alliance should not be a solo contentmobile' - Albert Einstein
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.10 02:42:00 - [31] If an English scientist is working for an American secret government project, makes a breakthrough and then decides to leave and go back to England, can he take his secret project with him because he's done all of the work? Or does it belong to the American government he was working for at the time? (no i'm not from either of the countries - just another way of putting your question i think)
BustyBounty Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.10 02:45:00 - [32] Edited by: BustyBounty on 10/08/2006 02:49:28 if you really did 90% of the work to obtain the bpo's then I say corp B keeps them and stops giving any of the profits to corp A tell them there original investment was paid back out of the profits seeing as there playing funny beggars. Quote: If an English scientist is working for an American secret government project, makes a breakthrough and then decides to leave and go back to England, can he take his secret project with him because he's done all of the work? companys in RL and corps in EVE have nothing in common if this was in real life the guys mining to buy the bpo would have been paid for there time ,the minerals would not have belonged to them and they would not have owned the bpo a bunch of majority shareholders would have. ------------------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance I belong to.
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.08.10 02:53:00 - [33] Originally by: eLLioTT wave If an English scientist is working for an American secret government project, makes a breakthrough and then decides to leave and go back to England, can he take his secret project with him because he's done all of the work? Or does it belong to the American government he was working for at the time? (no i'm not from either of the countries - just another way of putting your question i think) That's a bit enforcable with deadly force and prior agreements. While I admire your attempt to compare this, it isn't really relatable. My Guides
Sun Win Gallente Eve University The Big Blue	Posted - 2006.08.10 02:59:00 - [34] Originally by: eLLioTT wave If an English scientist is working for an American secret government project, makes a breakthrough and then decides to leave and go back to England, can he take his secret project with him because he's done all of the work? Or does it belong to the American government he was working for at the time? I think you mean, if an American scientist is working for an American secret project but then one day the project is transferred to the UK and the scientist with it, and then the scientist becomes a UK citizen and anyway he was a crazy rich scientist who funded the project himself and then later the UK and the US broke off diplomatic ties and decided to shut down the project... who gets the seecret profits? The answer: Who knows! Probably whoever has the bigger guns if it's worth going to war over, otherwise there's probably a trade embargo and maybe some angry letters to the Editor, but the Uk keeps things... Wait, what was the question? Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.10 03:42:00 - [35] Edited by: Plutoinum on 10/08/2006 03:43:21 If 1 or 2 people did most of the work, while others didn't do much, then you should find a solution that takes care of that. Usually if all people contribute to the corp and some people leave, then I think the stuff belongs the corp and should stay there without having to pay out anything. I mean the pvp folk contributes, too. They join pvp ops, e.g. in -V-: No pvp attendence, just carebearing = kick. But here it looks like 1 or 2 people invested almost 18 bil for the BPOs, so I think they are mostly theirs. Looks like they worked their asses off for it. Just my personal view of it.
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.08.10 04:15:00 - [36] Voted keep the BPOs, plus use your cash hire five or ten merc corps to chase the guys around for a month or so, plus leave insulting can art outside the station with their headquarters. Sig removed, inappropriate content - Cortes
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.10 04:15:00 - [37] Personally, I take a very strict and literal perspective regarding these issues. I believe that whatever corp has physical possession of a BPO "owns" it, especially when they got initial possession of it legitimately. The fact that the members of corp B also are the ones who put 90% of the work into procuring the BPO further strengthens this argument. However, I personally believe that the legitimate, physical possession aspect is the determining factor. Corp B didn't steal the BPO. Absent an explicit agreement as to what to do should corp A and corp B decide to go their separate ways there's no obligation on corp B's part to return it. The fact that corp B offered to either continue paying corp A profits, or pay/trade them a flat amount for it, is actually very noble because I don't think they even needed to do that. The fact that corp A is who initially purchased the BPO has absolutely no bearing on the issue. There are only two arguments for ownership: 1) actually physical possesion and 2) work/effort/isk expended. Both of those arguments favor corp B.
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.10 04:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Berrik Radhok Voted keep the BPOs, plus use your cash hire five or ten merc corps to chase the guys around for a month or so, plus leave insulting can art outside the station with their headquarters. This sounds like the most fun course of action mentioned so far. It would also be good if you smashed their POS network with dreadnoughts built with the very same BPO. The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored)
Lygos ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.08.10 05:54:00 - [39] You could probably use the corp shares program if you had decent accounting. If the CEOs went against the shareholder decisions, then that would be corp theft. I can't really tell if you are looking for an ethical justification of an outcome or a viable and equitable fiduciary solution. While the idea of a worker-owned company is nice (and can have great tax benefits) it is alot easier to simply pay commissions on labor and projects.
Sakura Nihil Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.08.10 07:10:00 - [40] Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Originally by: Berrik Radhok Voted keep the BPOs, plus use your cash hire five or ten merc corps to chase the guys around for a month or so, plus leave insulting can art outside the station with their headquarters. This sounds like the most fun course of action mentioned so far. It would also be good if you smashed their POS network with dreadnoughts built with the very same BPO. Now that would be sweet revenge. "You want your dreadnought BPO, here's your dread BPO!" OMG, WCS Nerf!
Mike Yagon Minmatar The Phoenix Legionaires	Posted - 2006.08.10 08:06:00 - [41] Edited by: Mike Yagon on 10/08/2006 08:07:17 Originally by: Sakura Nihil Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Originally by: Berrik Radhok Voted keep the BPOs, plus use your cash hire five or ten merc corps to chase the guys around for a month or so, plus leave insulting can art outside the station with their headquarters. This sounds like the most fun course of action mentioned so far. It would also be good if you smashed their POS network with dreadnoughts built with the very same BPO. Now that would be sweet revenge. "You want your dreadnought BPO, here's your dread BPO!" Stick said dread BPO in that dread, lure them out to fight for it. Plus you get to tauntingly spam a Show Info link of it in local! ------ In Carebear We Trust
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.10 08:19:00 - [42] Assuming the information the general comunity has is true (not saying anything against either corps involved, but all of the above is speculation based on unverified (and unverifiable) info (unless you are actually involved), Corp B, imo, has every right to keep the BPOs. While in their posession, much research appears to have been done @ Corp Bs expense, and the fact that Corp B can actually utilise these BPOs (apparently a full set for all Dreads, and some carriers), Corp B is sitting pretty on a licence to print money. Corp A deserve what they get, and if they war deck, use some of that hard earned to set some Mercs on them. Even better if you join another alliance as Corp A's alliance has to pay a massiveley increased war bill, and Corp A also have to convince their alliance to do so:) Akkarin Linkage Do not press this button
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 08:26:00 - [43] How do corp A propose to take the BPO's from corp B? Can't be done, no matter how much corp A wish otherwise. With that in mind, corp A should be grateful for any scraps corp B may throw their way. Personally, I'd give them nothing. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 08:39:00 - [44] Just tell Corp A to go F themselves, seem like a bunch of AHs anyway.... So...how much you selling dreads for?
Eximius Josari Shadow Reavers	Posted - 2006.08.10 08:40:00 - [45] At this point, I would simply forget they even exist. Victory is the weakness of the enemy.
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.10 09:24:00 - [46] Keep the BPO's and deposit into Corp A's account what you deem appropriate for their investment and efforts (or directly to the contributing members in question). Not more, not less. What you think they deserve. ---
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.10 09:31:00 - [47] Originally by: **take Originally by:** Gatedeath Okay. I will not use names in this post. By the way, post with your main. \o/ Nice one, ****take! - Latest MC Movie - Nation Building
OzaLoni Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 09:59:00 - [48] heheheh i've been waiting for this post to finally be made and I guessed at least 1 of the corps who were involved. Funny I was told that the BPO's in question were LENT out from OCC to RONA... funny but it is not how this reads. Knowing OCC this doesn't surprise me at all. I could be back in the PA reading this, things just don't change do they GL ****take.....
OzaLoni Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 10:01:00 - [49] Originally by: Seleene Originally by: **take Originally by:** Gatedeath Okay. I will not use names in this post. By the way, post with your main. \o/ Nice one, ****take! I wonder who this... hmmm ... hello edoo?
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.10 10:24:00 - [50] EVE way: The party without the BPO is left without the BPO. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Uther Doull Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 10:42:00 - [51] sounds like politics and human nature tbh so i guess your answer is yeah, it could be called theft... however the only law in eve is the law you can enforce yourself, so (guessing from the way you tell your story you are in corp B) you have the bpo's and you feel you are entitled to them. the solution seems pretty simple to me... you keep them and deal with the consequences.
Leto Nyx	Posted - 2006.08.10 11:16:00 - [52] Sounds like Corp A and Corp B already had a deal worked out, and now Corp A are trying to renege on it. Corp A should have put a bit more thought into the original agreement and provided for forseable changes of circumstance, and so only have themselves to blame. ----- Who do these gods think they are, with their 'holier than thou' attitude?
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 11:17:00 - [53] If players 1 & 2 who are in corp B did 90% of the work, they need to tell corp A to **** off IMO... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
000Hunter000 Gallente Dummy Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.10 11:24:00 - [54] Just do what is common in eve, wardec (hell make it mutual) and duke it out, winner gets all Banner will be updated shortly
Lorette Gallente Mythian Empire	Posted - 2006.08.10 11:29:00 - [55] Edited by: Lorette on 10/08/2006 11:32:08 Player 1+2 offer to pay back the original isk imput from the other investee's (that 10% of purchase price), if they dont take that offer then just cease communication, or just pay it anyway then cease communication. From the sounds of it you were the industrialist, you were actually capable of producing the ships. They just made an investment and got the main benefit of the ships that were built, the way i look at it they never 'owned' the BPO in the first place and so have no right to get it back, unless they pay the ammount you put in.
Steven Dynahir Gallente Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj	Posted - 2006.08.10 11:35:00 - [56] For Corp B I would suggest that you keep the BPO, this because of these reasons 1) You can. --- Sell orders Recruitment
Mikal Drey Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:50:00 - [57] hey hey Player joins corp, buys bpo's and puts them into corp, Player leaves corp . . who gets the BPO ? or even any thing that player drops to corp. Same difference here . . whoever currently has the BPO owns it theres no way to get it back so whats done is done. Only comon decency and honorable players would decide on any fair course of action. I saw a reply that said war dec ans fight it out . thats the alternative when diplomacy breaks down.
Archangel Raphael	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:16:00 - [58] the way i see it is as - firstly they were doing it for the corp, if someone "at the time" isnt happy doin all the mining, then they should of said then and maybe arranged so that all members took it in turns,, it is a corp effort. secondly,, were the items bought through the corp account/or using corp isk? if so then its irrelevant of who paid more in its corp cash. and thirdly when the corp decided to disband, amicably then all corp assests should of been sold off and each member should of recieved a equal percentage of the final corp revenue that would of been my way of doing it,,,,
Taketa De Gallente Seneca Federation	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:28:00 - [59] If what was written here is accurate and reflects what really happened I think Corp B should keep the BPOs. 1. They were the ones who started the project 2. They were the ones who funded the project 3. They were the ones who continued the project and made profit 4. They were the ones who made a fair settlement offer. now the only points Corp A has in their favor: 1. They were in control of the Corp where the BPOs were originally bought and the project was started 2. They contributed a small amount to the funds Personally, especially with the settlement offer being more then fair I think Corp B has fulfilled all of their obligations. Now there is one thing I don't understand: When Corp A started hostilities... why is this still an issue? If any Corp would wardec me or a Corp I am a member of, I'd stop playing nice. No more settlement offer, no more payments for sold items and hire mercs if those can be afforded. At that point they become the enemy and loose any goodwill left and any chance to get at those BPOs... ever. --- The Advanced Drone Control Panel.
Shittake RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.10 17:58:00 - [60] Edited by: **take on 10/08/2006 17:59:12 damn it - eve forums ate up my reply - will fix this later after work
Kylania Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:19:00 - [61] Sounds like to me that ***take knows better how to use the BPOs and is more willing to do what it takes to produce from them for profit. Given that and the fact that most of his own* ISK was used to buy all these things, I'd say he keeps the BPOs for himself. The old corp did little for the BPOs and turned down offers for a fair settlement. That said, he's named after a mushroom and I really dislike mushrooms. But still... -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap \| CCG Card Lookup
Sul Sonic Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:37:00 - [62] The way I see it you should go by your latest contract. It really depends on the arrangement you made when you split up with their corp. The amount of work done is basically a non factor, because you were working for a corp, and not for yourself. If in the arrangement you produce a bpo you have for them, then the bpo's are yours. If the agreement was you hold a bpo for them, and produce for them, then the bpo is theirs. The fairest way is just sell it and go 50/50. You would end up with more per person than them anyway.
Songwind The Descendants	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:37:00 - [63] In general, if you do work for a company, the results of that work belong to the company. That's fairly straightforward. In this case, no matter how much of the company's bottom line you sucked out of the rocks in your strip miner, it's still company money. However, IMO the real question here comes when they split up. If the agreement upon creating two corps said that Corp B had the BPOs.... then corp B has the BPOs. Corp A gave them away when the new company was formed, and that was probably not a wise decision on their part. Obviously this stuff doesn't translate directly into EVE most of the time because corporations in EVE rarely are run like a business. Corp funds probably didn't buy the mining equipment used to get the raw materials. Manufacturers and miners are rarely paid for their labor (nor are paramilitary wings, but they don't generally create anything that they can try to claim later). I think that easiest way to resolve these sorts of disputes before they begin would be to have a corporate agreement to either a) share the profits of the corp's ventures on a predetermined payout scale or b) to pay-per-piece. You make a new BS? You get however many ISK for it. You brought in 1M units of Isogen? Here's your money. Then you don't have to worry about who owns what - they are corporate assets. ----- The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
F4ze Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:59:00 - [64] ****take, you are too good. Keep the bpo's and keep an eye out for a wardeclaration.
Iva Soreass	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:22:00 - [65] Imo ****talk keep the stuff , send the so called whining little kid a amount you think is fair a be done with them, cease to talk to them or do business with them. Thats what i would do . GL hope you get it sorted.
Haldane IV Crisis Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:29:00 - [66] I don't think you say where this mining took place? If it was for high ends in 0.0, and that was better money than mining in safe empire space, did the miners only have 0.0 access because OCC (the pvp'ers) had access and the miners were (initially) part of OCC? It would make a difference because in such a scenario OCC did make a contribution to the miners ability to accumulate the minerals, over and above the 10% of the (mining) work they did do, and I do not think anyone has mentioned that.
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:12:00 - [67] Quote: I believe that a full airing of the details to the community, and your thoughtful responses, could possibly help their directors put things into perspective and negotiate fairly. So could telling them to sod off and keeping everything. If the BPOs are in your possession you are holding the cards. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:22:00 - [68] This is why I don't get along well with communists. There should be an isk transaction for every resource contributed to the corp. If there's not enough in the corp treasury, then you distribute stock. If one member gives enough to the corp that he's the de facto CEO, you either let him run the joint or you kick him out prior to that situation arising, avoiding the situation entirely. Have the BPOs paid for themselves yet?
x racer	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:42:00 - [69] Disclaimer: I have worked off and on with **take and his mining mushroom team scince my first days in EVE and always found him to be a reputable and fair player. That said, I dont know OCC at all. **take stated he made a more than fair offer, I believe him and encourage OCC to consider taking the offer or counteroffering. If OCC counteroffers, a paragraph or two describing how they arrived at the figure would be very helpful. Good luck with the negotiations. cheers, x
Kurren Farscape Mining	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:46:00 - [70] Originally by: Aeaus Knowing the corporations in question, it's an issue of both sides being partially right, and the evil side is the one you're not on. A solution would be to have Corp A receive the BPOs in return for the isk Corp B put in to the project, or simply keep production going with mutual benefits. I like that one. Honestly though, I'd just keep the BPO. That's me though. It's in my corp hangar... it's my corp's. You could always just give them 50% of the BPO cost and be done with it. If everything has been split 50/50 since buying it... you could just do that and still remain "fair." --- --- --- --- SobaKai.com
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:58:00 - [71] Originally by: Haldane IV I don't think you say where this mining took place? If it was for high ends in 0.0, and that was better money than mining in safe empire space, did the miners only have 0.0 access because OCC (the pvp'ers) had access and the miners were (initially) part of OCC? It would make a difference because in such a scenario OCC did make a contribution to the miners ability to accumulate the minerals, over and above the 10% of the (mining) work they did do, and I do not think anyone has mentioned that. This is an excellent point. Protection of corp members doesn't generate ISK directly, but it makes the ISK generation possible. I think a lot of industrial corporations would do well to remember that. However, he DID say that he tried to be more than fair with his buyout offer. If "Corp A" isn't even willing to negotiate, then they should get what they can force RONAD into giving them ... which is probably not very much. The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored)
Red Ochre	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:58:00 - [72] your first mistake was forming a business venture with people you cant get to. never form a corp unless you know these people in real life. if you do you are misguided and too trusting an individual and deserve the situation your in, trusting some person on the other end of an internet connection makes for bad business. people you know, that you can see from time to time in real life changes the whole outlook on any problem that may arise, the obvious need not be said. trusting anyone you meet in this game is a big nogo, because eventualy, that trusting soul will know you cant do anything and stab you in the back. it sounds cold but its simple fact.
Deja Thoris Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.10 21:37:00 - [73] Originally by: Arkanor Edited by: Arkanor on 09/08/2006 22:48:48 You are in corp B, judging by the tone of that post. Keep the BPOs, Posession is 7/10ths of the law, military strength is the other 3, and if they aren't willing to exercise it let them rot.
MX Storm	Posted - 2006.08.10 21:40:00 - [74] Edited by: MX Storm on 10/08/2006 21:40:27 Originally by: eLLioTT wave If an English scientist is working for an American secret government project, makes a breakthrough and then decides to leave and go back to England, can he take his secret project with him because he's done all of the work? Or does it belong to the American government he was working for at the time? (no i'm not from either of the countries - just another way of putting your question i think) Yes unless the us has found a way to brainwash all the info out of his head.
Ze4K DK Gallente RONA Deepspace CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.11 23:15:00 - [75] all i'm wondering is who made this post... ----------- I'm not a member of RONA and apparently LLeBrinG started to cry because i didn't change my sig to reflect this, sorry LL didn't mean to hurt your feelings or anything.
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.08.12 02:41:00 - [76] Corp assets are corp assets. You don't want to contribute to the corp and want to work into your own pocket instead? Just do that. You leave a corp? You also leave its assets behind.
Shaikar Amarr	Posted - 2006.08.12 03:54:00 - [77] Originally by: Lazuran Corp assets are corp assets. You don't want to contribute to the corp and want to work into your own pocket instead? Just do that. You leave a corp? You also leave its assets behind. Unless a agreement is made that allows you to take some of those assets of course. Which is what happened.
Jex Jast Perfect Order	Posted - 2006.08.12 04:19:00 - [78] If you bought the BPOs, they are yours, and it was you lending them to the corp, not the other way around. I think 90% is more than enough to claim ownership. Give them nothing, if this is even still going on. ___________________________________________
Calladen Nimitz Caldari Libertas Enterprises	Posted - 2006.08.12 04:20:00 - [79] Edited by: Calladen Nimitz on 12/08/2006 04:21:00 How much actual cash did each of the four players (1, 2, 4, 5) put into the BP project and what was the total cash invested in BPs. Find that out then pay Corp A (players 1, 2) what they put in. You turned over 2 Revelations and a Carrier to the Corp A folks. How much did they pay for those ships and the minerals you mined? How much did you make? The fact Corp A willingly let a member of Corp B keep the BPO's all this time and let Corp B do all the work mining, building and selling these ships as well as the copies while collecting 2/3 commission on everything seems to indicate they've already been "paid" for their share or a good part of it. Questions: 1. Was payment for minerals mined for the capital ships paid before you issued profits back to Corp A? How were you paid for your mining work? 2. How much grand total do you have invested (cash) in the BPOs and how much of that (cash) was given by Corp A? Now another Corp B question. When you were mining did Corp A provide warship protection in dangerous space while you mined? If so were they paid for that time? You need to factor in the non-mining contribution if there is any also. But in reality even if you gave them the BP they'd probably wardec you anyway. If they screamed so much even after you offered a fair buyout (double) and free webhosting they sound like they'd keep on you even if they got everything they wanted. So keeping it would probably not do you any worse then giving it up. So can you post some chatlogs? Id like to see what they're screaming at you. Calladen

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