Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Anwyl
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.08.14 02:39:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Anwyl on 14/08/2006 02:40:05
Originally by: fushi yasha the reason the ships dont accel indefinatly is becuase a ship can not move faster then its thrust exhust stream speed
You will ALWAYS accelerate if you're throwing things out the back of your ship, whether it's 1m/s or 1000m/s.
Oh, and btw, the reason modern ships don't accelerate constantly is 'cause fuel is REALLY expensive to shoot into space, so they use engines which give around 1N of force (I think, maybe as high as 10), and turn them off most of the time.
|
Sentient Void
QunSegh
|
Posted - 2006.08.14 05:19:00 -
[32]
Originally by: JoeT Dark Matter
Signed.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes |
Heritor
Caldari Polytope
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 08:00:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Heritor on 25/08/2006 08:03:28
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Heritor
Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space.
Just a thought.
There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner
I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely
WHAAAAATT??!!!
Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity.
Oh dear......
The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to.
My School
Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you! |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 08:04:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space.
Just a thought.
1. Play Orbiter. 2. Be glad Eve doesn't handle like this (imagine combat ) 3. Use same for your newtownian physics fix. It's damn addictive .
----------
|
Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 08:08:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/08/2006 08:16:01
Originally by: Heritor Edited by: Heritor on 25/08/2006 08:03:28
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Heritor
Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space.
Just a thought.
There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner
I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely
WHAAAAATT??!!!
Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity.
Oh dear......
The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to.
My School
I won't claim to know whether or not this is the case, but with regard to the force only being applied to your ship (that being the 'equal but opposite' one), because something is accelerating, I really want to see you run into a wall to see if you experience the equal but opposite force despite the wall not accelerating.
Edit: Although, thinking about it, what you say seems to make no sense. If you are moving your ship by firing stuff out the back, the 'stuff' starts at your ships speed (let's keep direction out of it), and is accelerated to your ship's speed minus, say, 500m/s. So when the ship reaches 500m/s, there is no longer a force on your ship, despite the fact that you are accelerating the 'stuff' from 500m/s to 0m/s? So, what, guns that fire rounds at that speed no longer have recoil if fired in the right direction? ----------
|
Kalaan Oratay
The Imperial Commonwealth
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 08:25:00 -
[36]
The big oil companies (or the future equilivent) have devices on your ships that are resistant to changes in velocity and will constantly try and reduce your speed to 0. This is so that the big oil companies make more money, as we the consumer have to run our engines 24/7 to travel around, and hence be constantly consuming their product.
They put stuff in the Quafe too, but I wont tell you what that does... they could be listening...
--- Originally by: Archilies Ignore what others say: Fit what you want, with what you have, whenever you want.
|
Romay
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 08:44:00 -
[37]
Quote: There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner
Don't we all learn about newtonian physics in school? I mean, it's not actually rocket science - okay, it IS rocket science, but what the heck.
Imagine yourself sitting in your spacecraft. Do you really think your engines will suddenly stop accelerating gas/plasma/whatever once you met some arbitrary velocity? What about if you are somehow flying _faster_ than your exhaust? Will you decelerate? What IS your current velocity? What do you use to measure it? The nearest planet? But it's moving, too.
Heheh, back to Physics I for you
|
Spanker
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 09:08:00 -
[38]
Please let me explain how this works.
All vessels with pod pilots have the ability to access velocities a great deal higher than the speed of light. This is made possible by the gravity well located in the center of the warp drive. Drive in this case is just a term for popular reference, it's really a containment field generator used for two things - protecting the vessel's hull and everything in it from structural collapse while in normal space and, reversing the polarity of the gravity projectors to enable interdimensional extrapolation (or, as you most often put it, warp speed).
So far so good. The problem is today's containment fields are nowhere near as effective as they need to be to entirely negate the gravitational attractions between the graity well and the subspace particles which exist in the closest dimension to this one (since, with the technology available today, contained gravity wells still fluctuate between dimensions at a rate of something like several billion times per second).
And, as you've no doubt already guessed, it's these gravitational effects that slow your ship down to a halt. Simple really.
- Shpank |
Akkarin Pagan
Minmatar Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 09:44:00 -
[39]
I ahev to say I fall into the camp where by your ship would continue to accelerate unless an external force acted on it. While true that you can only chuck stuff out of the back of your ship at a certain velocity, this DOES NOT effect the total maximum velocity of the ship, only its maximum acceleration.
Geo-syncronous (sp) orbiting satelites don't carry thrusters, but still manage to stay in (almost) exactly the same position relative the earth's surface. Once they have been accelerated to position, and velocity, they stay there due to the laws of conservation of momentum. Eventually their orbit will decay and they crash into the earth, but this is an effect of earth's gravity and not a lack of continuous propulsion.
Anyway, if EvE was a true frictionless environment, the Gallente and Amarr players would be always whining about the Caldari and Minmatar pilots being able to hit a target from almost infinite range (rail charges and projectile rounds would just keep going at the speed they left the muzzle of the cannon) while blaster charges would still decay due to losing the magnetic containment field after leaving the muzzle, and lasers suffer from a scattering effect, so eventually lose power over extended ranges.
Trust CCP it works better this way
Akkarin Linkage
Do not press this button |
ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 10:33:00 -
[40]
Edited by: ThaMa Gebir on 25/08/2006 10:33:53
Originally by: Akkarin Pagan I ahev to say I fall into the camp where by your ship would continue to accelerate unless an external force acted on it. While true that you can only chuck stuff out of the back of your ship at a certain velocity, this DOES NOT effect the total maximum velocity of the ship, only its maximum acceleration.
Damn forum ate my post.
meh.........
|
|
Edania
Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Novus Ordos Seclorum
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 11:33:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Heritor Edited by: Heritor on 25/08/2006 08:03:28
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Heritor
Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space.
Just a thought.
There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner
I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely
WHAAAAATT??!!!
Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity.
Oh dear......
The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to.
My School
no no no no no no no and why?
because the because if your exhaust is 1000m/s it will always be 1000 m/s FASTER than the ship is traveling once you get to say 1000 meters a second your exhauust velocity relative to an external point of view will be 2000 meters a second but from our own position on the ship they will still be thrusting at 1000 the ship is not anchored to space in anyway it is all but a closed system so you can with enougth time and energy get vlose to C even with an Ion Drive like on the European Smart 1 probe
Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
|
Iyanah
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 11:36:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Zekk Pacus While there are no frictional forces involved, there are other resisting movement forces at work that determine a ship's maxmimum speed. Mass, for example. I should imagine there's some RP reason given that involves safety systems designed not to let a ship go over a speed deemed 'safe'. (That could also explain faction/pirate afterburners - they've had their safety systems adjusted to give an edge).
this is pretty much how it works.
remember, that ships still have a mass, and as such manouvering at speed presents challenges created by momentum. theoretically you could accelerate a rifter (imagine this is IRL) to near infinite speeds, however, you would likely tear the ship apart in the process, or if you ever decided to turn, then there's the interstellar dust and micro meteorites which would punch a hole clean through the ship at those velocities, and ultimately, this is a game, newtonian physics in a space game generally lead to extreme difficulty unless you understand those physics, or simply a complete lack of fun.
oh and don't forget that you're a human in a pod, accelerating at such a rate would crush you (however once the acceleration ended, you'd be fine, as all the air, the ship and yourself would all be moving at the same speed).
i think i covered everything... i hope that helps :) ========================================== Iy |
Rosenkranz
Caldari The Aussie Connection Corp
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 11:45:00 -
[43]
As I understand it, EVE ships real space propulsion systems are based on reactionless drive.
Saddly I'm not articulate enough to explain it but basically rather that burning fuel and throwing that mass out the back of the vehicle like a rocket does, EVE propulsion systems push against against space itself like tires push against the road to push a car forwards.
Like a car though when you let off the gas the car slows. Likewise in EVE, when you cut the drive the ship slows to a stop. So apprarently even when the drive isn't active it's got a grip on 'space'.
I wish I could explain this better. This is more like a compliation of observations on sci-fi space drives over the last 20 years than any one specific explaination. Though some sort of RP explaintion may be in the eve chronicles somewhere. ----------------- "Its never just a game when you're winning." - George Carlin |
Iyanah
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 11:54:00 -
[44]
Originally by: JoeT Dark Matter
honestly, how? why?
dark matter doesn't do anything, it doesn't even collide with detectors (except apparently once, they think, perhaps), so it can't be the cause of friction.
and to anyone who said about exhaust plumes being at a constant speed - yes, by the time they leave your ship, they will be at their final velocity, but look at how the ABs are labelled - 1MN, 10MN, 100MN. meaning they apply a constant force of 1, 10 or 100 mega newtons to the ship, a constant aplication of force, which would thus create a constant acceleration in a world of newtonian physics.
now i know it's been a long time since sixth form (college, for those who don't know what that is), but i do still remember a fair amount about physics. ========================================== Iy |
Steven Dynahir
Gallente Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 12:02:00 -
[45]
Tunneling technology.
There is no "propulsion" as the engine works on "tunneling" mechanism. Basically it means that the ships relative speed to space is constant 0m/s.
What happens is that the engine causes the whole ship to tunnel through the distance in small hops. The lenght of the hop is pretty much constant (about an atoms lenght) but the available frequency of these hops depends on the size and mass of the object doing the hopping.
The engine needs time to increase/decrease the hop-frequency, thus "accelerating" and "decelerating". And the maximum frequency combined with the mass&size of the ship determines the maximum "speed" of the ship.
So the ships are actually not traveling at all, but just changing their position in the 4 dimensions.
--- Sell orders Recruitment
|
Spanker
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 12:12:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Steven Dynahir Tunneling technology.
There is no "propulsion" as the engine works on "tunneling" mechanism. Basically it means that the ships relative speed to space is constant 0m/s.
What happens is that the engine causes the whole ship to tunnel through the distance in small hops. The lenght of the hop is pretty much constant (about an atoms lenght) but the available frequency of these hops depends on the size and mass of the object doing the hopping.
The engine needs time to increase/decrease the hop-frequency, thus "accelerating" and "decelerating". And the maximum frequency combined with the mass&size of the ship determines the maximum "speed" of the ship.
So the ships are actually not traveling at all, but just changing their position in the 4 dimensions.
yours > mine tbh
- Shpank |
Twilight Moon
Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 12:14:00 -
[47]
Look ma! I'm in yet another Physic related propulsion thread!
...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
|
Mr Mirage
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 13:21:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Mr Mirage on 25/08/2006 13:24:12 Edited by: Mr Mirage on 25/08/2006 13:23:09 Edited by: Mr Mirage on 25/08/2006 13:21:22
Quote:
...
Quote:
WHAAAAATT??!!!
Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity.
Oh dear......
The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to.
My School
What rubbish!! I know you didn't get taught that at bham either.
|
Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 13:25:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Rosenkranz Explanation
I really like this idea. I think it wins. ----------
|
Leto Nyx
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 13:35:00 -
[50]
As somebody else mentioned - it's to do with mass.
If an astronaut pushes off the side of the space shuttle, he and the shuttle don't go flying off in opposite directions at equal speed. This is because the mass of the shuttle is many times the mass of the astronaut. So what actually happens is the astronaut goes flying off at speed, while the shuttle moves almost imperceptibly in the opposite direction. For this reason, ejecting gas/whatever at speed from an afterburner does NOT mean that the ship will move in the opposite direction at the same speed that matter is ejected. The difference in mass prevents this. Added to this is the fact that according to Einstein (as somebody also mentioned) an object's mass increases as it's speed increases. As an object approaches the speed of light, it's mass approaches infinity (theoretically), and so the amount of energy required to increase it's speed still further also approaches infinity. This is why it has been theorized that matter cannot exceed the speed of light, and why for faster-than-light travel we will need to find a way to warp the fabric of space/time.
So in those respects, Eve does follow physics in that ships can't fly at infinite speeds, or even exceed the speed of light, without using warp.
-----
Who do these gods think they are, with their 'holier than thou' attitude? |
|
Asnar
Evil Strangers Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 13:36:00 -
[51]
True space combat is horrible, EVE combat is modeled after submarine combat which is a lot more fun, and easier to compute.
|
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 13:42:00 -
[52]
Originally by: fushi yasha the reason the ships dont accel indefinatly is becuase a ship can not move faster then its thrust exhust stream speed
Houston, we need better frames of reference!
You're playing golf on a plane (this has actually been done, for a golf drive of several miles, though it is kinda cheating). There are two observers, you in the plane, and Joe Bloggs on the ground.
First, the plane is stationary on the ground. You drive the golf ball forward. You see it go at 10m/s relative to you. Joe Bloggs sees it going at 10m/s relative to him. You now take off in the plane, and the plane gets to 800m/s. You drive the golf ball again. You see the golf ball move at 10m/s relative to you. Joe Bloggs sees the golf ball moving at 850m/s relative to him.
It's the same with the jet exhaust. The exhaust will come out at 1000m/s relative to your ship, whether you're going at 0m/s or 2000m/s. It is the speed of the exhaust relative to your ship that is important for the thrust calculations, not the speed relative to a fixed observer. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
DOGNOSH
Minmatar SKULLDOGS
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 13:47:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Heritor
Oh dear......
The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to.
heritor,with all due respect listen to others, you are so so wrong
assume exhaust gases go at 1000 m/s as was said before you could be standing still or travelling at 1000000 m/s , your exhaust gases will still be travelling away from you at 1000 m/s , hence you can carry on accelerating until you run out of fuel or hit a physics limit or hit a planet
========================================== stop moaning,give CCP a break
|
Idaeus
Gallente Crimson Wings Squadron
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 14:28:00 -
[54]
IOI: -1
Ships don't accelerate indefinitely because then I wouldn't be able to shoot you. ---- IOI? |
Ocwi
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 14:31:00 -
[55]
Let's also turn off the sound, since there is no sound in space.
|
Leto Nyx
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 14:38:00 -
[56]
My new favourite quote: Why is it that nobody understands me, yet everybody likes me? - Albert Einstein (1944)
Useful link for amateur relativists
-----
Who do these gods think they are, with their 'holier than thou' attitude? |
DOGNOSH
Minmatar SKULLDOGS
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 14:43:00 -
[57]
Edited by: DOGNOSH on 25/08/2006 14:46:19
Originally by: Ocwi Let's also turn off the sound, since there is no sound in space.
bwahahah you are a glutton for punishment
there is sound in space,exactly where you hear it,in the*****pit,it travels through bodywork to you
the blasts and noises from other crafts,yes agreed,as we need a medium like air to hear it
edit : aaaaargh,the profanity filter in here gets on my **** i'll translate *****pit = male chickenpit
edit 2 : hahaha i seemed to have got another ****
========================================== stop moaning,give CCP a break
|
Kirive
Gallente Omerta Syndicate Pure.
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 14:47:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Twilight Moon Edited by: Twilight Moon on 25/08/2006 12:39:46 Look ma! I'm in yet another Physic related propulsion thread!
Dont get me wrong now, I'd love fully realistic physics in EVE. I'd love to be able to launch my ship into an asteroid belt at near light speed, see a miner (obviously view and targeting ranges would need to be vastly improved), start firing off my autocannons at several thousand kilometres, scream past the miner within a few thousand metres and be rewarded as my shells, also travelling at near light speed (as they were fired from an object at that speed, ie, my ship) rip the miners ship to ribbons due to sheer insane kinetic force....then watch as the miners ship, now in several pieces vents gasses into space, sending up sheets of flame, as I slowly bring my ship about to return in a weeks time for the can.
Obviously, not possible....but all the same, I'd love it.
Hell yeah.
Incidentally, the Casimir Effect is a force that acts between parallel conducting plates due to alterations of the vacuum expectation value of the electromagnetic field. Very hard to measure, even harder to alter, but hey, a weak theory is only mildly more embarrassing than no theory at all, right?
|
ReaperOfSly
Gallente Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 19:38:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Heritor Edited by: Heritor on 25/08/2006 08:03:28
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Heritor
Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space.
Just a thought.
There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner
I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely
WHAAAAATT??!!!
Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity.
Oh dear......
The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to.
My School
Your link is broken by the way.
But seriously, if you pretend you know what you're talking about, it irritates those of us that do.
The mass of the propellant that is outside your ship is increasing (because your engines are adding more to it), which means its momentum is going up. Since momentum must be conserved, your ships momentum is also going up. That means it's going faster.
If you start to consider the fact that the mass of the ship itself is decreasing while all this is going on, the acceleration is not constant - it's increasing.
So much for maximum speed. --------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Crotch Cricket
|
Posted - 2006.08.25 20:12:00 -
[60]
Wow, who cares --- Really, its a game and what we have works. Its not trying to be realistic in anyway. You could pick apart EVE and any game for that matter for months showing why it is unrealistic. And then you could go make a realistic game yourself and watch as no one buys it because it sucks ass.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |