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Katrina Coreli Cannon Fodder Inc	Posted - 2006.08.12 21:05:00 - [1] My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space. Just a thought. Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.12 21:09:00 - [2] That's how space propulsion would work in real life, but it'd be utterly impossible to make the game playable under that system. (Anyone remember trying to manually get to a planet in Frontier, without plastering yourself across the surface?) ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Benco97 Gallente On Ravens Wings	Posted - 2006.08.12 21:10:00 - [3] also, way back in the mists of time, didn't I read something that said the entire eve system is in a big funky gas cloud? Snug Radio - Fart like a Pirate
Caleb Paine	Posted - 2006.08.12 21:11:00 - [4] oooh, 3D Asteroids! ----------------- Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.12 21:42:00 - [5] Originally by: Benco97 also, way back in the mists of time, didn't I read something that said the entire eve system is in a big funky gas cloud? Wouldn't explain the propulsion effects - a "gas cloud" in space is still a damn sight nearer pure vacuum than anything we've created in the lab to date. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Benco97 Gallente On Ravens Wings	Posted - 2006.08.12 21:45:00 - [6] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Wouldn't explain the propulsion effects - a "gas cloud" in space is still a damn sight nearer pure vacuum than anything we've created in the lab to date. Nuh-uh, look, I CLEARLY stated "funky", for example "I found the soup far to funky to drink" I am completely correct ^^ Snug Radio - Fart like a Pirate
Zeknichov Amarr Black Avatar	Posted - 2006.08.12 22:36:00 - [7] Let's just pretend that the afterburner creates the energy required to thrust the ship forward through slowing the ship down and the max speed is where the equilibrium is met.
Zaldiri Caldari Automated Industries	Posted - 2006.08.13 00:29:00 - [8] You realise if you ask to many questions like this CCP dump you in jove space. ----------------------------------------------- Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
Zekk Pacus Caldari StateCorp	Posted - 2006.08.13 00:35:00 - [9] While there are no frictional forces involved, there are other resisting movement forces at work that determine a ship's maxmimum speed. Mass, for example. I should imagine there's some RP reason given that involves safety systems designed not to let a ship go over a speed deemed 'safe'. (That could also explain faction/pirate afterburners - they've had their safety systems adjusted to give an edge).
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:05:00 - [10] Only had to log in 7 times to post this! Lets just say ships are only rated for certain speeds because at high velocity small particles and 'space rocks' would start damaging the ship's hull. ;) The new BFG.
Furutsun MC Cubed Inc	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:06:00 - [11] eve has sort of got underwater physics as far a propulsion goes, theres some kind of friction in the galaxy of eve that slows ships down ------------------------------------------ Personnel Director Mc Cubed website http://www.mccubed.org Evetrack business tools http://www.evetrack.com/
Shaikar Amarr	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:16:00 - [12] Yep thats about right, well until you get to really high speeds where odd things would start to happen. EVE physics aren't real physics though, unfortunately. Having proper flight physics would be great imo (and battleships going at great speds ae no real problem, beuse a) they took ages t accelerate up to that speed and b) they'll take ages to decelerate. You might hav problems picking up loot though, ala elite /first encounters etc but thats what small maneuverable ships/tractor beams are for anyway )
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:20:00 - [13] Yeah not many people know this but fleet lag is really a feature of EVE, it's actually time slowing down as a result of so much mass clustered into one little area The new BFG.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel It dosn't. Eve spaceships use Casimir-Effect Spacewarp Drives.
Benco97 Gallente On Ravens Wings	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Maya Rkell Eve spaceships use Casimir-Effect Spacewarp Drives. I like to think that my ships use Alcubierre drives and "surf" through space on a thingy-ripple. Snug Radio - Fart like a Pirate
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space. Just a thought. True but it would frack up game balance. There, explained. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
ThaMa Gebir Gallente Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.13 05:55:00 - [17] You are all wrong its space pixie dust...... And it is magic....
Katrina Coreli Cannon Fodder Inc	Posted - 2006.08.13 09:23:00 - [18] I blame the wizards personally... Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread.
Tao Han Caldari Crucial Electronics	Posted - 2006.08.13 09:25:00 - [19] Edited by: Tao Han on 13/08/2006 09:25:16 EVE physics is more of a "spaceships in the fishtank" than a true spacesimulation
Katrina Coreli Cannon Fodder Inc	Posted - 2006.08.13 09:30:00 - [20] Or prehaps we are infact inside a giant fish tank for the amusement of CCP If you could zoom out far enough you would be able to see the pond weed... Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread.
Heritor Caldari Polytope	Posted - 2006.08.13 09:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space. Just a thought. There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you!
Dralon Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.08.13 09:45:00 - [22] Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming. What do we do? We swim, swim.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.13 11:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Heritor Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space. Just a thought. There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Where should I start? The gas ejected from your afterburner provides THRUST. Doesn't matter whether said gas is ejected at 100,000km/s or 1m/s, it provides thrust, which increases the speed of your ship. There is no theoretical limit, short of c., to which speed an afterburner can take you. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.13 11:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Heritor Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space. Just a thought. There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely WHAAAAATT??!!! Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity. --------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Steele Syncore Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.13 12:08:00 - [25] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Heritor Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space. Just a thought. There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely WHAAAAATT??!!! Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity. Yes Newtons law states force = mass x acceleration thus to classical mechanics you could keep accelerating forever. However as you travel faster your mass increases (Einstein), so thus assmuming the same propulsive force you will accelerate slower. Anyway eve is just a game. . . Author of "The Apoc Guide"
Humble Voh	Posted - 2006.08.13 12:21:00 - [26] Eve clearly has non-Newtonian physics. Reaction Mass, anyone? Does the 'casimir' thingy come from Eve backstory or some real-life speculative engineering?
000Hunter000 Gallente Dummy Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.13 12:33:00 - [27] Q. Why doesn't eve have the same physics as RL? A. It's a game? Banner will be updated shortly
UrLeyn Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.13 12:40:00 - [28] Perhaps the ship's maximum speed is the maximum velocity it can reach before the fuel consumption becomes greater than its replenishment; the ship computer automatically limits it to prevent you from running out in mid-space :)
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.13 13:08:00 - [29] Originally by: Jim Steele The way to get aroung this is to have a gravitational field generating a singularity to compress space so the distance you have to travel is less. There are many ideas about how FTL could work, but for most theres no known theoretical or applied way of seeing if they do work. I'd wait until we have a better understanding of the relationship between quantum mechanics, relativity and gravity before saying anything certain about FTL. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
JoeT Amarr Short Attention Span The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.14 01:02:00 - [30] Dark Matter ---
Anwyl Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.14 02:39:00 - [31] Edited by: Anwyl on 14/08/2006 02:40:05 Originally by: fushi yasha the reason the ships dont accel indefinatly is becuase a ship can not move faster then its thrust exhust stream speed You will ALWAYS accelerate if you're throwing things out the back of your ship, whether it's 1m/s or 1000m/s. Oh, and btw, the reason modern ships don't accelerate constantly is 'cause fuel is REALLY expensive to shoot into space, so they use engines which give around 1N of force (I think, maybe as high as 10), and turn them off most of the time.
Sentient Void QunSegh	Posted - 2006.08.14 05:19:00 - [32] Originally by: JoeT Dark Matter Signed. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Heritor Caldari Polytope	Posted - 2006.08.25 08:00:00 - [33] Edited by: Heritor on 25/08/2006 08:03:28 Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Heritor Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space. Just a thought. There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely WHAAAAATT??!!! Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity. Oh dear...... The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to. My School Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you!
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.25 08:04:00 - [34] Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space. Just a thought. 1. Play Orbiter. 2. Be glad Eve doesn't handle like this (imagine combat ) 3. Use same for your newtownian physics fix. It's damn addictive . ----------
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.25 08:08:00 - [35] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/08/2006 08:16:01 Originally by: Heritor Edited by: Heritor on 25/08/2006 08:03:28 Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Heritor Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space. Just a thought. There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely WHAAAAATT??!!! Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity. Oh dear...... The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to. My School I won't claim to know whether or not this is the case, but with regard to the force only being applied to your ship (that being the 'equal but opposite' one), because something is accelerating, I really want to see you run into a wall to see if you experience the equal but opposite force despite the wall not accelerating. Edit: Although, thinking about it, what you say seems to make no sense. If you are moving your ship by firing stuff out the back, the 'stuff' starts at your ships speed (let's keep direction out of it), and is accelerated to your ship's speed minus, say, 500m/s. So when the ship reaches 500m/s, there is no longer a force on your ship, despite the fact that you are accelerating the 'stuff' from 500m/s to 0m/s? So, what, guns that fire rounds at that speed no longer have recoil if fired in the right direction? ----------
Kalaan Oratay The Imperial Commonwealth	Posted - 2006.08.25 08:25:00 - [36] The big oil companies (or the future equilivent) have devices on your ships that are resistant to changes in velocity and will constantly try and reduce your speed to 0. This is so that the big oil companies make more money, as we the consumer have to run our engines 24/7 to travel around, and hence be constantly consuming their product. They put stuff in the Quafe too, but I wont tell you what that does... they could be listening... --- Originally by: Archilies Ignore what others say: Fit what you want, with what you have, whenever you want.
Romay	Posted - 2006.08.25 08:44:00 - [37] Quote: There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner Don't we all learn about newtonian physics in school? I mean, it's not actually rocket science - okay, it IS rocket science, but what the heck. Imagine yourself sitting in your spacecraft. Do you really think your engines will suddenly stop accelerating gas/plasma/whatever once you met some arbitrary velocity? What about if you are somehow flying _faster_ than your exhaust? Will you decelerate? What IS your current velocity? What do you use to measure it? The nearest planet? But it's moving, too. Heheh, back to Physics I for you
Spanker	Posted - 2006.08.25 09:08:00 - [38] Please let me explain how this works. All vessels with pod pilots have the ability to access velocities a great deal higher than the speed of light. This is made possible by the gravity well located in the center of the warp drive. Drive in this case is just a term for popular reference, it's really a containment field generator used for two things - protecting the vessel's hull and everything in it from structural collapse while in normal space and, reversing the polarity of the gravity projectors to enable interdimensional extrapolation (or, as you most often put it, warp speed). So far so good. The problem is today's containment fields are nowhere near as effective as they need to be to entirely negate the gravitational attractions between the graity well and the subspace particles which exist in the closest dimension to this one (since, with the technology available today, contained gravity wells still fluctuate between dimensions at a rate of something like several billion times per second). And, as you've no doubt already guessed, it's these gravitational effects that slow your ship down to a halt. Simple really. - Shpank
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 09:44:00 - [39] I ahev to say I fall into the camp where by your ship would continue to accelerate unless an external force acted on it. While true that you can only chuck stuff out of the back of your ship at a certain velocity, this DOES NOT effect the total maximum velocity of the ship, only its maximum acceleration. Geo-syncronous (sp) orbiting satelites don't carry thrusters, but still manage to stay in (almost) exactly the same position relative the earth's surface. Once they have been accelerated to position, and velocity, they stay there due to the laws of conservation of momentum. Eventually their orbit will decay and they crash into the earth, but this is an effect of earth's gravity and not a lack of continuous propulsion. Anyway, if EvE was a true frictionless environment, the Gallente and Amarr players would be always whining about the Caldari and Minmatar pilots being able to hit a target from almost infinite range (rail charges and projectile rounds would just keep going at the speed they left the muzzle of the cannon) while blaster charges would still decay due to losing the magnetic containment field after leaving the muzzle, and lasers suffer from a scattering effect, so eventually lose power over extended ranges. Trust CCP it works better this way Akkarin Linkage Do not press this button
ThaMa Gebir Gallente Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 10:33:00 - [40] Edited by: ThaMa Gebir on 25/08/2006 10:33:53 Originally by: Akkarin Pagan I ahev to say I fall into the camp where by your ship would continue to accelerate unless an external force acted on it. While true that you can only chuck stuff out of the back of your ship at a certain velocity, this DOES NOT effect the total maximum velocity of the ship, only its maximum acceleration. Damn forum ate my post. meh.........
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:33:00 - [41] Originally by: Heritor Edited by: Heritor on 25/08/2006 08:03:28 Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Heritor Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space. Just a thought. There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely WHAAAAATT??!!! Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity. Oh dear...... The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to. My School no no no no no no no and why? because the because if your exhaust is 1000m/s it will always be 1000 m/s FASTER than the ship is traveling once you get to say 1000 meters a second your exhauust velocity relative to an external point of view will be 2000 meters a second but from our own position on the ship they will still be thrusting at 1000 the ship is not anchored to space in anyway it is all but a closed system so you can with enougth time and energy get vlose to C even with an Ion Drive like on the European Smart 1 probe Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
Iyanah Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:36:00 - [42] Originally by: Zekk Pacus While there are no frictional forces involved, there are other resisting movement forces at work that determine a ship's maxmimum speed. Mass, for example. I should imagine there's some RP reason given that involves safety systems designed not to let a ship go over a speed deemed 'safe'. (That could also explain faction/pirate afterburners - they've had their safety systems adjusted to give an edge). this is pretty much how it works. remember, that ships still have a mass, and as such manouvering at speed presents challenges created by momentum. theoretically you could accelerate a rifter (imagine this is IRL) to near infinite speeds, however, you would likely tear the ship apart in the process, or if you ever decided to turn, then there's the interstellar dust and micro meteorites which would punch a hole clean through the ship at those velocities, and ultimately, this is a game, newtonian physics in a space game generally lead to extreme difficulty unless you understand those physics, or simply a complete lack of fun. oh and don't forget that you're a human in a pod, accelerating at such a rate would crush you (however once the acceleration ended, you'd be fine, as all the air, the ship and yourself would all be moving at the same speed). i think i covered everything... i hope that helps :) ========================================== Iy
Rosenkranz Caldari The Aussie Connection Corp	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:45:00 - [43] As I understand it, EVE ships real space propulsion systems are based on reactionless drive. Saddly I'm not articulate enough to explain it but basically rather that burning fuel and throwing that mass out the back of the vehicle like a rocket does, EVE propulsion systems push against against space itself like tires push against the road to push a car forwards. Like a car though when you let off the gas the car slows. Likewise in EVE, when you cut the drive the ship slows to a stop. So apprarently even when the drive isn't active it's got a grip on 'space'. I wish I could explain this better. This is more like a compliation of observations on sci-fi space drives over the last 20 years than any one specific explaination. Though some sort of RP explaintion may be in the eve chronicles somewhere. ----------------- "Its never just a game when you're winning." - George Carlin
Iyanah Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:54:00 - [44] Originally by: JoeT Dark Matter honestly, how? why? dark matter doesn't do anything, it doesn't even collide with detectors (except apparently once, they think, perhaps), so it can't be the cause of friction. and to anyone who said about exhaust plumes being at a constant speed - yes, by the time they leave your ship, they will be at their final velocity, but look at how the ABs are labelled - 1MN, 10MN, 100MN. meaning they apply a constant force of 1, 10 or 100 mega newtons to the ship, a constant aplication of force, which would thus create a constant acceleration in a world of newtonian physics. now i know it's been a long time since sixth form (college, for those who don't know what that is), but i do still remember a fair amount about physics. ========================================== Iy
Steven Dynahir Gallente Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj	Posted - 2006.08.25 12:02:00 - [45] Tunneling technology. There is no "propulsion" as the engine works on "tunneling" mechanism. Basically it means that the ships relative speed to space is constant 0m/s. What happens is that the engine causes the whole ship to tunnel through the distance in small hops. The lenght of the hop is pretty much constant (about an atoms lenght) but the available frequency of these hops depends on the size and mass of the object doing the hopping. The engine needs time to increase/decrease the hop-frequency, thus "accelerating" and "decelerating". And the maximum frequency combined with the mass&size of the ship determines the maximum "speed" of the ship. So the ships are actually not traveling at all, but just changing their position in the 4 dimensions. --- Sell orders Recruitment
Spanker	Posted - 2006.08.25 12:12:00 - [46] Originally by: Steven Dynahir Tunneling technology. There is no "propulsion" as the engine works on "tunneling" mechanism. Basically it means that the ships relative speed to space is constant 0m/s. What happens is that the engine causes the whole ship to tunnel through the distance in small hops. The lenght of the hop is pretty much constant (about an atoms lenght) but the available frequency of these hops depends on the size and mass of the object doing the hopping. The engine needs time to increase/decrease the hop-frequency, thus "accelerating" and "decelerating". And the maximum frequency combined with the mass&size of the ship determines the maximum "speed" of the ship. So the ships are actually not traveling at all, but just changing their position in the 4 dimensions. yours > mine tbh - Shpank
Twilight Moon Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.25 12:14:00 - [47] Look ma! I'm in yet another Physic related propulsion thread! ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Mr Mirage	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:21:00 - [48] Edited by: Mr Mirage on 25/08/2006 13:24:12 Edited by: Mr Mirage on 25/08/2006 13:23:09 Edited by: Mr Mirage on 25/08/2006 13:21:22 Quote: ... Quote: WHAAAAATT??!!! Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity. Oh dear...... The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to. My School What rubbish!! I know you didn't get taught that at bham either.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:25:00 - [49] Originally by: Rosenkranz Explanation I really like this idea. I think it wins. ----------
Leto Nyx	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:35:00 - [50] As somebody else mentioned - it's to do with mass. If an astronaut pushes off the side of the space shuttle, he and the shuttle don't go flying off in opposite directions at equal speed. This is because the mass of the shuttle is many times the mass of the astronaut. So what actually happens is the astronaut goes flying off at speed, while the shuttle moves almost imperceptibly in the opposite direction. For this reason, ejecting gas/whatever at speed from an afterburner does NOT mean that the ship will move in the opposite direction at the same speed that matter is ejected. The difference in mass prevents this. Added to this is the fact that according to Einstein (as somebody also mentioned) an object's mass increases as it's speed increases. As an object approaches the speed of light, it's mass approaches infinity (theoretically), and so the amount of energy required to increase it's speed still further also approaches infinity. This is why it has been theorized that matter cannot exceed the speed of light, and why for faster-than-light travel we will need to find a way to warp the fabric of space/time. So in those respects, Eve does follow physics in that ships can't fly at infinite speeds, or even exceed the speed of light, without using warp. ----- Who do these gods think they are, with their 'holier than thou' attitude?
Asnar Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:36:00 - [51] True space combat is horrible, EVE combat is modeled after submarine combat which is a lot more fun, and easier to compute.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:42:00 - [52] Originally by: fushi yasha the reason the ships dont accel indefinatly is becuase a ship can not move faster then its thrust exhust stream speed Houston, we need better frames of reference! You're playing golf on a plane (this has actually been done, for a golf drive of several miles, though it is kinda cheating). There are two observers, you in the plane, and Joe Bloggs on the ground. First, the plane is stationary on the ground. You drive the golf ball forward. You see it go at 10m/s relative to you. Joe Bloggs sees it going at 10m/s relative to him. You now take off in the plane, and the plane gets to 800m/s. You drive the golf ball again. You see the golf ball move at 10m/s relative to you. Joe Bloggs sees the golf ball moving at 850m/s relative to him. It's the same with the jet exhaust. The exhaust will come out at 1000m/s relative to your ship, whether you're going at 0m/s or 2000m/s. It is the speed of the exhaust relative to your ship that is important for the thrust calculations, not the speed relative to a fixed observer. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
DOGNOSH Minmatar SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:47:00 - [53] Originally by: Heritor Oh dear...... The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to. heritor,with all due respect listen to others, you are so so wrong assume exhaust gases go at 1000 m/s as was said before you could be standing still or travelling at 1000000 m/s , your exhaust gases will still be travelling away from you at 1000 m/s , hence you can carry on accelerating until you run out of fuel or hit a physics limit or hit a planet ========================================== stop moaning,give CCP a break
Idaeus Gallente Crimson Wings Squadron	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:28:00 - [54] IOI: -1 Ships don't accelerate indefinitely because then I wouldn't be able to shoot you. ---- IOI?
Ocwi	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:31:00 - [55] Let's also turn off the sound, since there is no sound in space.
Leto Nyx	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:38:00 - [56] My new favourite quote: Why is it that nobody understands me, yet everybody likes me? - Albert Einstein (1944) Useful link for amateur relativists ----- Who do these gods think they are, with their 'holier than thou' attitude?
DOGNOSH Minmatar SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:43:00 - [57] Edited by: DOGNOSH on 25/08/2006 14:46:19 Originally by: Ocwi Let's also turn off the sound, since there is no sound in space. bwahahah you are a glutton for punishment there is sound in space,exactly where you hear it,in the***pit,it travels through bodywork to you the blasts and noises from other crafts,yes agreed,as we need a medium like air to hear it edit : aaaaargh,the profanity filter in here gets on my i'll translate *pit = male chickenpit edit 2 : hahaha i seemed to have got another ** ========================================== stop moaning,give CCP a break
Kirive Gallente Omerta Syndicate Pure.	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:47:00 - [58] Originally by: Twilight Moon Edited by: Twilight Moon on 25/08/2006 12:39:46 Look ma! I'm in yet another Physic related propulsion thread! Dont get me wrong now, I'd love fully realistic physics in EVE. I'd love to be able to launch my ship into an asteroid belt at near light speed, see a miner (obviously view and targeting ranges would need to be vastly improved), start firing off my autocannons at several thousand kilometres, scream past the miner within a few thousand metres and be rewarded as my shells, also travelling at near light speed (as they were fired from an object at that speed, ie, my ship) rip the miners ship to ribbons due to sheer insane kinetic force....then watch as the miners ship, now in several pieces vents gasses into space, sending up sheets of flame, as I slowly bring my ship about to return in a weeks time for the can. Obviously, not possible....but all the same, I'd love it. Hell yeah. Incidentally, the Casimir Effect is a force that acts between parallel conducting plates due to alterations of the vacuum expectation value of the electromagnetic field. Very hard to measure, even harder to alter, but hey, a weak theory is only mildly more embarrassing than no theory at all, right?
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.25 19:38:00 - [59] Originally by: Heritor Edited by: Heritor on 25/08/2006 08:03:28 Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Heritor Originally by: Katrina Coreli My physics arnt great so bear with me, but surely if Eve propultion works in a similar wawy to modern space travel, and the afterburners do too surely there would be no limit to a ships speed given the lack of anything to slow it down other than the gravitational effects of other objects in space. Just a thought. There would be a finite limit to the speed at which you could travel using afterburners.The maximum velocity you could reach is the velocity of the gas which is ejected from your afterburner I think Newtons Law number three will cover this nicely WHAAAAATT??!!! Go back to school and learn something, seriously. Newton's Laws refer to force, not velocity. Oh dear...... The particles (mass) that are ejected out of the thruster are accelerating to a final velocity...therefore there is a force being applied to the ship. This is due to mass being accelerated, when the particles reach there final velocity and no longer accelerate there is no longer any force being applied and your ship will stop accelerating. The ship will come to a finite velocity which is the velocity at which the particles are accelerated to. My School Your link is broken by the way. But seriously, if you pretend you know what you're talking about, it irritates those of us that do. The mass of the propellant that is outside your ship is increasing (because your engines are adding more to it), which means its momentum is going up. Since momentum must be conserved, your ships momentum is also going up. That means it's going faster. If you start to consider the fact that the mass of the ship itself is decreasing while all this is going on, the acceleration is not constant - it's increasing. So much for maximum speed. --------------------------------------------------------------------
Crotch Cricket	Posted - 2006.08.25 20:12:00 - [60] Wow, who cares --- Really, its a game and what we have works. Its not trying to be realistic in anyway. You could pick apart EVE and any game for that matter for months showing why it is unrealistic. And then you could go make a realistic game yourself and watch as no one buys it because it sucks ass.
jumper6 Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.08.25 20:17:00 - [61] Originally by: Zaldiri You realise if you ask to many questions like this CCP dump you in jove space. hahahahahaha, dunno why but that made me lol
Tallin Rose	Posted - 2006.08.25 23:23:00 - [62] Originally by: Twilight Moon Edited by: Twilight Moon on 25/08/2006 12:39:46 Look ma! I'm in yet another Physic related propulsion thread! Dont get me wrong now, I'd love fully realistic physics in EVE. I'd love to be able to launch my ship into an asteroid belt at near light speed, see a miner (obviously view and targeting ranges would need to be vastly improved), start firing off my autocannons at several thousand kilometres, scream past the miner within a few thousand metres and be rewarded as my shells, also travelling at near light speed (as they were fired from an object at that speed, ie, my ship) rip the miners ship to ribbons due to sheer insane kinetic force....then watch as the miners ship, now in several pieces vents gasses into space, sending up sheets of flame, as I slowly bring my ship about to return in a weeks time for the can. Obviously, not possible....but all the same, I'd love it. As fun as that sounds it would be pretty much impossible to do. After you fire your auto-cannon rounds you would have to accelerate to a high enough speed to pass the rounds before they strike the target. Figure the muzzle velocity of an auto-cannon is around 600 meters per second. Assuming you can accelerate at a little more than 5 G's you will accelerate at 50 meters per second per second and it will take 80 seconds for you to catch up to the rounds from the auto-cannon. In 80 seconds the round will travel 160km + your initial velocity in meters per second times 80. The largest exhumer has a signature radius of 150m. At 160 km your auto-cannon couldn't deviate any more than .05 degrees or you would miss. Recoil alone would probably be more than enough to cause that much of a deviation. All I can figure is that ships in Eve must use some sort of reactionless drive which accounts for their odd behavior. If they didn't and a ship was capable of providing thrust indefinitely through a mechanism such as a Bussard ramjet then other factors would limit its top speed. As many people have pointed out as an object moves faster its mass increases. This will not provide a limit as some people claim because this would be countered, I believe, by the fact that the reactant mass increases as well. At the same time, however, there is also a time dilation effect. While the thrust might remain constant to the passengers on board to the people outside the ship it would be seen to provide less and less thrust as its seconds stretch longer and longer. Of course these effects only become significant as you approach a substantial portion of the speed of light. Long before that occurs you will have friction slowing the ship down. Even at only 1% of the speed of light you are travelling at about 3000 km per second or around 9000 times the speed of sound on Earth. Space is not a perfect vacuum and since drag increases at the square of the speed the effects of drag would probably not be insignificant at that point. None of which really matters to our ships in Eve, but is interesting (at least to me) to think about.
Preliator Caldari The Wolves' Pack	Posted - 2006.08.25 23:37:00 - [63] Ah but eve ships have graviton manipulation systems to steer and slow ships down!...Honest!
Tallin Rose	Posted - 2006.08.25 23:42:00 - [64] Actually after crunching a few more numbers I have to move my estimate from 'pretty much impossible' to simply 'highly improbable'. .05 degrees of variation is roughly the equivalent of shooting out the center diamond of a card at 30 meters. Of course this is also predicated on sustaining 5 G's of force for about a minute and a half which even in a modern G suit would be pretty tough (fighter pilots sustain up to around 7.5 G's of force but not for durations spanning more than perhaps a dozen seconds). Additionally the figures have you flying past just as the rounds hit rather than before and ignores the fact that you will go screaming past the target at least 160km before you can turn around to head back (so you won't really get to see the boom). I need to find something more constructive to do with my time.
Tallin Rose	Posted - 2006.08.25 23:43:00 - [65] Originally by: Preliator Ah but eve ships have graviton manipulation systems to steer and slow ships down!...Honest! Yeah, but everyone knows that graviton drives have a maximum velocity and won't let you outrun shells from an auto-cannon.
Tallin Rose	Posted - 2006.08.25 23:49:00 - [66] Glargh! I messed up my numbers. I had to convert some data from feet to meters and then accidentlly used the unconverted number. In 80 seconds you would only have to travel 48 km, not 160. I should have caught that.
Silver Night Caldari Intergalactic Combined Technologies THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2006.08.26 01:06:00 - [67] I figure, your velocity is artificially limited, because hte ship designers knew you would be changing direction. Say you get up to 600km/s... Well, then you ahve to accelerate back up to 600km/s jsut to get you to a relative velocity of 0, going the other way. Then you ahve to make it all the way back. Basically, tis so that you can turn. Otherwise, things would jsut get ugly. -------------- Director. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Murderer of (his own) Frigates.
Qutsemnie Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.26 02:45:00 - [68] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 26/08/2006 02:54:16 You can accelerate indefinately by throwing rocks off the back of your ships with your own arm. The center of mass for a system cannot be changed by internal forces. Its right there in like your very first physics book =) The sense of where you went wrong with the thruster picture is that YOU are ALWAYS AT REST relative to your thruster. Space has no perfect inertia frame. Velocity is always movement relative to something else. Changing your velocity is as simple as picking a new something else. Your velocity is at one time 0, 1/4C and 1/2C and your thruster doesnt stop working because you changed the view point of relative to what... I mean you can be at rest relative to the center of the earth and at massive speed relative to another galatic core. Your thruster doesnt depend on where you put your eyes does it? So how does it all fit together? Well relative to you everytime you throw a rock off the back of your space ship you continue to move. You throw the first rock off and your center of mass is changed. The rock goes backwards off into space. Now you think im at 0 again. And you pick up another rock and you throw it off the back off the ship and your center of mass is changed again. But now you are moving away from the first rock at nearly twice the rate you were before. Atleast for rocks 1 and 2. But what happens as the number of rocks gets huge is that each rock appears to accelerate you away from the first rock for a smaller and smaller amount. However to you every rock will also seem to accelerate you the same amount. You throw the first rock and measure how far away you are from the first rock 10 seconds later and its the same as throwing the 1 billionith rock and waiting to see how far you are from the 1 billionith rock 10 seconds later. [ignore the obvious loss of mass effects...]Its always the same! Its your velocity change relative to the first rock that gets smaller and smaller however it never vanishes as it has to stay consistant with the fact that the nth rock accelerates the ship relative to the launched rock the same as the 1st rock. Now this is made possible by various dilation effects of space and time at large velocities. I think theres also an interesting effect where the observed pace of throwing the rocks changes depending on your viewpoint =) But its absolutely wrong to think that there is some sort of velocity limit to a rocket. You could move a mass at 1 m/s out the back of your space ship and it would still accelerate you past 1 m/s. When rockets to outside the atmosphere first became feasible concerns like this and concerns about what does a thruster "push agianst" were circulated. The key to understanding all of it is the line in your very first physics book about "For any closed system, no internal force can change that systems center of mass" And from that line does all understanding about thrust in space flow. And you might wonder whats the big deal about faster thrust then? The mass gets further away in a shorter time. Thats it. If the mass ejected behind you gets very far away very fast then the center of mass for the entire system moves forward faster. Its that simple.
Leto Nyx	Posted - 2006.08.26 13:55:00 - [69] For all those who think you can accelerate indefinitely: I respect your opinion, but I'm inclined to side with Einstein on this one, until one of you proves him wrong ----- Who do these gods think they are, with their 'holier than thou' attitude?

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