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Unus Verumi
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Posted - 2006.08.13 10:16:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Unus Verumi on 13/08/2006 10:28:33
In a game such as Eve where work/time spent does not equal character development as it pertains to skills/levels/etc there comes a time when after 3+ years that the gap draws ever more wide from the new player to the old player. As it is, it takes months to train your learning skills in order to be playing effectively, as most people will tell you. This is a tedious process for all new players and draws them farther away from the game then they should be. They will be less active, unwilling to participate for yet another day...in the sixth week of their excistence, flying around in their Caracal with their skills not capable of properly piloting this vesseal, filling almost no roles in their corp other than "an extra high slot".
This initial argument that usually comes up in my mind is that most players CAN contribute within their first week or so rather well as a tackler or expendable bait in a PvP group. That is fine for a couple weeks, but picture the guy who logs in every day , and I know we have all been there at one point or another and had to seriously question why you even logged in as you look at 6d, 12h, 28s left on that Oh so important learning skill. It is extremely and utterly daunting to new players to think of such a thing, especially when the concept is really hard to grasp without extreme patience.
Eve Online is one of the only games I have ever played where I actually watch T.V, browse the internet, play other games WHILE I am playing this one. In a way it is kind of cool to be able to casually play Eve in that sense. It is nice to be able to do your homework, walk the dog, read "War and Peace" while running courier missions.
Is it time to increase learning times in the first months of play say 10%, 20%, or dare I say 50%. Give people a real attachment to their character in the first month, allow them to experience the fun of "dinging" a new skill that we all miss so much in this game at the beginning. There are so many skills now, and so many new skills on the way, that this would not hurt the experienced players, and will give new players a much needed since of accomplishment, that the lack of can otherwise be too much to bear in the early days of an Eve account.
What do you guys think about this? This is not a thread specifically about the "learning skills". If I had my way personally I would make the first 1,000,000 skill points train at 50% increased and tailor down for each 1,000,000 after this.
I would like to hear from both new and old players. I think it would be interesting to see the differences in opinion from the new guy to the old vet. If you dont mind as well please list when you started playing, so people have an idea about where the opinion comes from.
Thanks for reading.
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Jernau Gurgeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.13 10:19:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jernau Gurgeh on 13/08/2006 10:19:59
You don't have to train all of your leaning skills first.
Also, older players do currently advance at a slower rate than newer ones. Have you seen how long it takes to train a battleship skill from 4 to 5?
There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not. |
Unus Verumi
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Posted - 2006.08.13 10:26:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Unus Verumi on 13/08/2006 10:28:25
I know it happens, but I just can't get used to the one sentence responses that have nothing really to contribute and really argue no points.
You bring up that the old players train slower. Your example is training a skill from 4 to 5. How is that slower than a new player training a skill from 4 to 5 in their first month or two? It is actually more likely slower for the new person because they won't have implants installed, and most likely will have few learning skills learned.
It is NOT necessary to train your learning skills first, but of course it is an essential job that must be undertaken at some point, which can save months on a 2 year old character. The problem lies in the fact that you must train these skills eventually. It is a must, and I think to disagree with that statement would only serve to discredit yourself.
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Ivan Kirilenkov
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2006.08.13 10:27:00 -
[4]
While this question begs a long answer, I will provide a short one. Not really. New players are just that. New. The road to understanding, and learning Eve is at times narrow and steep. Much of the fun though, can be had while learning to appreciate the many different aspects of the game. And in addition to the rather improved (over what was at the time I started playing the game) new player experiences, there is the community that is Eve. New players are welcomed into many different corporations, and there are countless of players who do their best to make the first meeting with Eve as painless as possible.
The argument can also be made, that new players allready have a headstart on older players in a sense. Making isk is a lot easier today than it was 3 years ago, when some started playing. And to put the end to a myth, a majority of Eve's players aren't 3 years old and insanly rich. Another thing is that with the new advanced learning skills and easier access to implants, new players actually learn at a faster rate than older players did when they started out.
To sum up my short (heh) answer, I don't think so. New players should not be in a battleship in their third week. They should pace their learning, because it will reduce the chances of them loosing that precious battleship to a battlehardened veteran on their first undocking. There is no race to level 60, and skillpoints isn't the be all end all of having fun in Eve.
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Infinity Ziona
Space Elves of Ragnoroth
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Posted - 2006.08.13 10:32:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Unus Verumi
Edited by: Unus Verumi on 13/08/2006 10:28:25
You bring up that the old players train slower. Your example is training a skill from 4 to 5. How is that slower than a new player training a skill from 4 to 5 in their first month or two? It is actually more likely slower for the new person because they won't have implants installed, and most likely will have few learning skills learned.
All skills are not created equal. A newer player training a skill from 4 to 5 might do that in a week. A older player such as myself training a skill from 4 to 5 may do that in 45 days.
It depends on the Rank of the skill as much as the level being trained. A skill of rank (8) is going to take 8 times longer to train from 4 - 5 then a skill of rank (1). It just so happens older players have more higher ranking skills then younger players.
Additionally older players dont necessarily have more implants since many older players dont use expensive implants since they die alot and implants die with them.
'The alliance should not be a solo contentmobile' - Albert Einstein |
Niivvy
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.13 10:42:00 -
[6]
 Quote:
flying around in their Caracal with their skills not capable of properly piloting this vesseal, filling almost no roles in their corp other than "an extra high slot".
rubbish! ANY player can fill a role in a corp at ANY age even in a large established pvp corp a noob with some basic ewar skills in a frig can swing a battle.
or a noob mining can make a small bur appreacated
diffrence to a crop. hell how long does it take to train up hauller skills ??
and when a player reaches about a year old u can pretty much be top of the game on one specalised ship or role. the older players just have mastersed more diffrent aspects in the game.
new players can make a diffrence they dont need a boost
ccp pleeeeeeeeeeze fix the forum bugs
[url="http://oldforums.eveonline.com/? |
Valan
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Posted - 2006.08.13 10:45:00 -
[7]
Comparing yourself to other people is never going to bring you happiness. Concentrate on what you're doing and what you want instead of looking at what everyone else has got. That's what's wrong with half the planet.
If you want to play EVE to sit there in a Titan as fast as possible feeling uber then you really are playing the wrong game. The first months are the best of all if you bypass that too fast you really are missing out. My favourite exploits were in my noob days. If it wasn't for the guys I play the game with I would delete my char tomorrow.
Balance training learning skills with doing training fun stuff like ships and guns.
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Unus Verumi
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Posted - 2006.08.13 10:55:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Unus Verumi on 13/08/2006 10:57:46
Originally by: Ivan Kirilenkov
Had to trim because I type to damn much.
Yes, I have actually had this counter argument in my head many times while thinking of this situation and how it applies and coincides with the very nature that is "Eve Online".
My background is I used to play the game had three accounts, characters were 10Millionish Skill Points, more than capable of contributing and self-existing by themselves.
Now I am running the trial and thinking about if I actually didn't have the opportunity to just reactivate my old accounts, how tiresome it truly was to train these learning skills, or just to feel so completely inept. When I was playing with my old seasoned accounts, it was easy to discount the thoughts of the new player. My thinking was generally "I had to go through it, so everyone else should as well.". To be honest, looking at it from the bottom up and not only talking with new players but "living" with them as well. To hear the way new players talk and think. It really seems like people I talk to are begging for something to do, then learning that they aren't quite there yet. Of course, I did lie to them just like everyone else and tell them the old "Oh, it doesn't matter how many skill points you have, everyone can contribute!" while on the other side of the conversation I am asking god to forgive me for my little white lie.
Imagine it like this, nearly every MMO you can possibly imagine to this point has had one constant. That constant was leveling. It is an extremely gratifying experience to hear that little song that plays everytime you have spent hours grinding mobs. Why else do it, you character is now stronger because you put in the time. Because you stayed up all night on a Friday sitting in front of your computer, instead of going to the bar, hanging out with real life friends, going to the beach for the weekend, you can now go kill that ugly Orc that beat your ass the night before.
My thought is that this feeling is quintessential to the new player experience. It is my firm belief after running through the game now on a trial account that Eve is still Eve, and the things you experience in Eve can not be compared to those in other games. You should still become accustomed to the ways of Eve. I just feel that the time it takes to get really into the game is too long, and does not need to be anymore, now that there are so many more skills to learn. I also believe that weening players away from that "ever*****" sense of accomplishment could only do good, and strengthen the community in almost every way.
One thing that got me thinking about this was I was messing around with a skill planner, that took into account your learning skills, implants, attributes, etc. The hypothetical "endgame gear" as it stands now is flying a Titan. The time it takes to fly a titan from newbie character with average attributes, +3 implants, etc was roughly 250 days. 8 months. 3/4 of a year. That is just to be able to board the Titan. You cant shoot anything yet, but you can bump the hell out of people if you want. Something to think about. Remember you really won't be doing anything else during this time, because you couldnt fit anything to any ship you would be flying.
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Edania
Caldari
Ordo Adeptus Astartes
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Posted - 2006.08.13 10:57:00 -
[9]
i dont think new players need a head start, the same thing was talked about when i started nearly 2 years ago sure i will never be able to compete with DR Craymus on skill points, tho one of my near term goals is to hit 50% of his total but i can now and have for a long time been able to play the game to the same level, or in specific fields beyond the average day 1 starter. even 2 years on i cannot pilot any BS effectivly something im fine with but put me in a ferox/vulture and the situation is completly reversed.
you may say that my situation is completly different than yours but id disagre no matter when you start you will always be put in the situation where your in your little noob ship and you see a battleship doing what your doing better and wish that you were in that position. id be willing to wager that people who started 2 weeks after launch or 2 months after launch felt the same way there will always be people starting the game after you who will look up at you and wish that they could be in your shoes
There are pleanty of checks and balances in the skill system preventing age from being an i win button for example for a week i have been training Electronic upgrades 5 that skill is simply a time sink its bonus is utterly pointless and doesnt stand on its own merits but it is required for covert ops and ship classes that are good at one thing and one thing alone rather than the generalist platforms of the T1 ships that take prehaps a day to get into.
your early eve experiences are easy to come by so try them all out, get the pvp first buzz in a frigate then later experience it again in a cruiser, if you jump straight in in a BS youve lost out on a load of experiences because youve taken the big hit first and the small ones are not quite as satisfying.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.08.13 11:03:00 -
[10]
The headstart comes in form of bloodlines with kinda nice attributes, 500k Isk from the storyline, good tutorial, learning skills, advanced learning skills, implants, and loads of pilots able and willing to provide you with assistance.
Anything further, and you'll be missing out a huge part of the learning you have to do to fly more expensive ships.
Welcome to EVE!
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Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
Shahadet
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.13 11:03:00 -
[11]
I see the slow start as a useful filtering tool for players. If you cant handle the idea that somethings just take time with little to no way (aside from getting a rack of implants form a freind) to speed up the presses then EvE is most likely going to bore you in the long run. In this case getting out of EvE before your 14 day trail is over is for the best. Starting players have everything they need to really just jump into the game. Sure they are not as good as someone with 20mil skillpoints. But really a starting player should not be as good. Most MMOs have a form of Power Leveling that any starting player can rush to all the old players level in a short time. This does not happen in EvE. There is now power leveling system that can be done. At best you can get a nice injection of Isk and a rack implants. This is about as closest to power leveling as you are going to get.
Now ture anyone that starts today will never surpass skill point wise someone that started 3 years ago provided they keep their clone uptodate. EvE does have a barrier where new players can never exceed old players. And new players need to relize this sooner rather then later. Now this does not mean the old players will always be better. In PvP a noob in a frig can and sometimes does pod the old vet with 30mil skill points. In other MMOs the level 5 is never going to kill the level 60+ in pvp and theres a strong chance mechincaly he can not even touch them.
So I guess what this rambling post is about is I like EvE the way it is. I belive the slow start that all players have to deal with is what keeps EvE free of some player types I think EvE is better without. I think that holding a new players hand and giving them a brake on something such as learning skills will only cuase players that currenly don't like the slow character growth that EvE has to stay around an extra month until there 50% noob training bonus wares off and the see that first skill listed as 6d 12hr 23m to train and quit like they should have weeks ago.
You like the Sig? Check them out here and see who made them. |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.13 11:08:00 -
[12]
Uno.
Duo.
Treo.
----------------
Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.13 11:23:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 13/08/2006 11:23:56
Im beginning to become a Ivan fan... he types what Im thinking so I dont have to. :)
As for skillpoints, here is the breakdown of skillpoints of active characters on Tranquility:
between 0 and 1 million skillpoints: 358353
between 1 and 2 million skillpoints: 14035
between 2 and 3 million skillpoints: 8149
between 3 and 4 million skillpoints: 5826
between 4 and 5 million skillpoints: 4696
between 5 and 10 million skillpoints: 14859
between 10 and 15 million skillpoints: 9875
between 15 and 20 million skillpoints: 7861
between 20 and 25 million skillpoints: 6194
between 25 and 30 million skillpoints: 4373
between 30 and 35 million skillpoints: 2568
between 35 and 40 million skillpoints: 1313
between 40 and 45 million skillpoints: 257
between 45 and 50 million skillpoints: 4
between 50 and 55 million skillpoints: 7
between 55 and 60 million skillpoints: 1
Stats are from 2006.02.22 and was published in a dev blog. So people arent that much behind as they feel they are. Besides, skillpoints doesnt really matter... there is no race to Titans! This is not WoW...
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000Hunter000
Gallente
Dummy Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.13 11:28:00 -
[14]
Without reading any of the other posts... a headstart for newbs? are u kidding me? ur kidding me right? this is a fun thread right?
Suuuure! just give newbs a BS and 100 million isk when they start np.
Yes, i was beeing sarcastic and no, i think current day newbs allready get a bigger advantage then they used to.
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Lihnuz
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Posted - 2006.08.13 11:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Unus Verumi
Edited by: Unus Verumi on 13/08/2006 10:28:25
You bring up that the old players train slower. Your example is training a skill from 4 to 5. How is that slower than a new player training a skill from 4 to 5 in their first month or two?
first, the gain you get from training a lv4 skil to lv5 is not that big of a difrens realy. And train a rank 1 or rank 3 skil to lv5 is much faster than say a rank 8
And you dont have to have 40mil sp to be competetive in this game, just get som frinds and go kill that guy whit 40mil sp..
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Estelle Matsuko
Caldari
The Beiatch Corp Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:02:00 -
[16]
You¦ve heard that old saw about it¦s the journey that¦s important? Eve is the epitome of that philosophy.
My first character was started christmas 2003, my current one just over a month ago. My current character is only one I play with now (I gave away the older char to a corp mate when I took a 5 month break). If the only things people are after are large isk balances and the latest toys, then they will miss a lot of what makes eve.....well eve.
Training now is a lot quicker than it was so new characters already have a "headstart"
Why should new players get preferential treatment? To stop them getting bored and leaving?. Sorry to sound heartless, but if they are that shallow and impatient then Eve is NOT the game for them, and they will not be missed.
Forget how many sp or indeed isk you have. Play the damn game, join a damn corp and relish the challenge.
Just over a month old and I¦m in a ferox, murdering L3 missions like there¦s no tomorrow, and having far more fun than I did during the long hard slog with my first char. Training seems fine to me.
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Valan
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:05:00 -
[17]
If you had to level in EVE I would have never picked it up off the shelf.
You mention the end game being in a Titan, or even any other capital ship for that matter. I don't even want a capital ship its not my thing. Goals are set by yourself, objects and ships are a means to that goal. Nobody cares what you can fly, it dies just as easy as any other ship. Objects are tools not the goal itself. Obtaining a carrier might be a short term goal but unless you have a plan to use it why bother. You train the skills to use the tool.
Half the skills you train will be useless in a years time because CCP will nerf it to death anyway. I'm looking at all my EW skills being worthless again, after having to retrain. I had to train loads of missile skills and don't even get me started on drones. I'm still no better than I was I've had to train millions of SPs to stay where I was a year ago. Train for the Thanatos and see what happens.
EVE is different there is no best weapon or uber set up, there is always another one to take you down. Look at BoB they work as a team, in the tournament any of those alliances could've bought the same implants and the same ships. Do you think BoB would still win? Its the tactics, teamwork, willpower and pesonality behind the VR object that makes the difference.
Newbies get the new bloodlines which are boosted characters for free. Then there is the advanced learning skills which we never had. So there are two leg ups. You can mine with more efficiency, you can do missions that weren't there before. 0.0 gates have been added to make 0.0 entry easier. 0.0 belt rats you can kill by sneezing on them. It took our corp best part of year to kit out with BS's, it's achievable in a couple of months now. If it gets any easier it won't be worth logging in.
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Unus Verumi
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:07:00 -
[18]
Would be a different story if new players actually posted in here I would reckon, I am sure now though that there will be a multitude of alt characters of year old players to argue against my original post. That is fine I did not expect anything less.
How can you honestly say that 50% increase, or less would hinder and harm the foundation of Eve, its gameplay mechanics, or its community. You can not really. The old statement that skills don't matter is a lie. They do matter, it is as simple as that. It would not hurt to allow players to start wearing their first +1 armor before their trial is up if you get my drift. It does nothing but begrudge the new player when it takes so long to experience some of the familiar feelings that would initailly draw you into such a game.
I have not seen one counter-argument that truly disputes this. It would only help the player base and new players joining the game, and would cause no harm as I stated above.
You want to say "Oh well they would just quit anyway because they just dont have the patience to play the game."
I say "Fine, whats the loss to you then?" I will answer that for you. "None."
You say "But of course new players can contribute! Why just the other day my one week old member podded a 30 mil skillpoint vet"
I will say "I doubt it, and just because lighting hit me and I lived that one time, doesn't mean it happens often" or "Yes, they can contribute, but barely, and they not much more than another block on the overview to add to the confusion.". Actually, there a number of things I could say to this one.
Ok guys, what else you got for me? Anything that would answer why this could do anything but help?
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Estelle Matsuko
Caldari
The Beiatch Corp Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:32:00 -
[19]
"How can you honestly say that 50% increase, or less would hinder and harm the foundation of Eve, its gameplay mechanics, or its community. You can not really. The old statement that skills don't matter is a lie. They do matter, it is as simple as that. It would not hurt to allow players to start wearing their first +1 armor before their trial is up if you get my drift. It does nothing but begrudge the new player when it takes so long to experience some of the familiar feelings that would initailly draw you into such a game."
EVERY single player online in EVE today has gone through the same drag of learning skills, getting podded by an uber player, making thier first mill, thier first pvp kill. 20000+ online playing the game would seem to indicate that there is nothing awry in the kingdom of Denmark.
Why SHOULD new players learn faster? Those that get impatient and disillusioned with the game leave, those that stay are the ones we want. There¦s more staying if the increase in subscribers is anything to go by.
Think of it as a dross and l33t kiddie filter.
Also your arguments would hold a lot more weight if you posted with your main and not a 2 day old character.
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Edania
Caldari
Ordo Adeptus Astartes
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:35:00 -
[20]
Ok first thing about your 50% thing is its frivilous additional complexity to the coding with small tangible benifit for increased risk even at 200% your for a month or so nothing really changes so frig 5 becomes what 15 days for a new low learning skill player and if the times invested into learning skills you have gained nothing youve still not experienced the game.
secondly when i want a mars bar i eat a mars bar not 25 thats just glutenous. you start and you want to try out the effectivness of an afterburner train it up slap it on your ship and go "cool" or you want to move to destroyers great there an incrimental step, whats the point in getting every tier 1 ship/module in a ludicrously short period of time it gives you no time to explore each things potential individually thus you will have a lower overall game knoledge. give someone everything at once and you merely have a spoiled child rather than a well rounded person.
i personally dislike the "we new players are forced to group up to do anything argument" ie why cant a 1 month old player take down a 3 year player alone? here is a news flash it is often required that 3 year old players gang up to do the same thing. 1V1 in eve is relativly rare and is mostly idiots getting ganked by predators ive had my fair share of idiocy so no offence is ment there.
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Max Godsnottlingson
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:38:00 -
[21]
Ok. I'm an old player who has not so long ago re-started Eve after a short break. So I know what is what and how to go. After just two months I have almost a billion in my wallet, and Can solo into 0.1 with ease. I'll be trying my hand in 0.0 any day now. I can also hold my own in PvP, I still loose more then I get away from, but have had more then one complementry evemail from opponants on how difficult my ship was to take down.
My point is, other then just bragging  , is that if I can do it, anybody can, all you need to do is take the time to learn who everything hangs together. A good Corp will more then help with that, so don't be afraid to ask, even if it does seem like a silly or stupid question
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JabJabVVV
The Four Aces
Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.13 13:04:00 -
[22]
Edited by: JabJabVVV on 13/08/2006 13:05:03
While skills do matter it would seem to me that the knowledge you hold in your own head rather than your char's head is more important. Last night I went for a bit of low sec PvP with a few corp mates in a ship and setup I could use when I was 2 weeks into the game and had a blast, we did pretty well and had some fun. If we had done the same thing when we were all a couple of weeks into the game then I'm sure the results would have been very different. It is not the skills that would have made the difference but the experience, Max Godsnottlingson's post also backs this up.
Perhaps they could give new players a few more skill points when they start and some more isk so they can get a decent frigate setup on their first day (indeed this may be a good idea) but this wouldn't address the reason I feel most people give up before they even have 2 million skill points and that is a lack of knowledge of game mechanics and tactics, this is the main issue that I feel needs addressing if they want more players. That may mean creating a far more comprehensive tutorial or perhaps even employing instructors to help people in the noob corps get to grip with the game. Accelerating start up for new players will do very little; it'll just mean that it's a battleship they lose when they first go ratting in a pirate infested system due to lack or knowledge rather than a frigate.
Another point that has been addressed is the 'end game', there is no ub3r l337 end game loot and that is the beauty of eve. Your goal is the target you set yourself and the ships and equipment that you train for are merely tools. For example my goals are all to do with my corp and alliance and to facilitate that I am planning to train a mining barge and then a dreadnought because it is what the corp needs. However I do not expect to have any more fun in these than I had last night in the ship I trained for in two weeks. My goals are to do with my relations with my friends and enemies in eve, not what ships I can fly.
Edited for crappy proof reading.
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Jif Lemming
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Posted - 2006.08.13 13:07:00 -
[23]
Implants and learning skills have been around a while but you'll be training faster and earning more isk than I did in my first year. I know it seems hard like I say I have new chars but it's easier than it's ever been.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.13 13:18:00 -
[24]
While you do not "have" to train the learning skills is correct, it's also a pointless argument. You do not have to train *any* skill.
You could train only motion prediction in the navigation tree and fly an interceptor - but it also would be plain out stupid because you would then utterly suck with one.
Similary, if you want to play EVE for longer than 6 months you basically *have* to train the learning skills, because otherwise your progression will be very slow. There is a reason most people recommend to train them AFAP - it is simply a very good idea.
But it is for new players also a huge boring timesink. And a rather pointless one. I would not be suprised if many new players loose interest in EVE during their learning skill phase because their char is effeciently not advancing then.
IMO it would help new players big time if new chars would start with the basic learning skills maxxed. I do not really see any reason how that could have anything but positive effects.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.08.13 13:23:00 -
[25]
I think eventually we MIGHT need something to be done for newbs - Im dont think we are there yet.
The real issue is can CCP keep adding content but make is reasonably accessable to new players. If they can we wont need a newb bonus.
Wherever you went - here you are.
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
Demon Womb
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Posted - 2006.08.13 13:25:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh
Edited by: Jernau Gurgeh on 13/08/2006 10:19:59
You don't have to train all of your leaning skills first.
Also, older players do currently advance at a slower rate than newer ones. Have you seen how long it takes to train a battleship skill from 4 to 5?
for me 27d 15.x h
:)
Great Quotes...
INNOMINATE NIGHTMARE > Your mother is an Exotic Dancer and your Sister works in a Quafe Factory..... |
Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.08.13 13:44:00 -
[27]
Level 5 prereqs need to go the way of the dodo and it's all good.
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Liu Kaskakka
PAK
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Posted - 2006.08.13 13:49:00 -
[28]
no
King Liu is RIGHT!!
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Valan
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Posted - 2006.08.13 14:01:00 -
[29]
There is no content in EVE the content is player driven.
OK here is are a few questions to see what can be done to help. Three months in what goal do you have? What is preventing you from achieving the goal? How are vets two plus years in the game preventing from achieving that goal? What do you need?
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Tonkin
Singularity.
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Posted - 2006.08.13 14:10:00 -
[30]
i ahte it wheen noobs complain about people being stronger than them. what happend to starwars gallaxys when it took about a year to become a jedi. then they changed it so that people can start the game as a jedi. lots of people left becasue of anger. i would leave if a noob was in a carrier in 2 months time.
if you still dont like it mate GO ON EBAY, buy a a charactor with loads of skill points. and ebay buyers i have noticed have no idea what the hell they are buying half the time lol, they want a one man army charactor and then they realise there a ubber carebear miner charactor.
will kill anythin for the right price |
Trillian Mcmillan
The Arrow Project
The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.08.13 15:23:00 -
[31]
I am (still) a new player. And my alt is not even done with learning yet.
No i dont need a head start.
Thank you.
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Valan
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Posted - 2006.08.13 15:24:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Valan on 13/08/2006 15:34:34
Makes no difference if the noob is in a carrier I'm not going to engage unless I'm a Dread. If I don't own a Dread, the Dread pilot will take him out while I take the fighters out in something else.
Same as having a Dread without having a POS or another Capital to fire at, completely pointless, unless you have a tackler. Tools for jobs, as a vet you can do more jobs, but I can only do one job at a time. If I'm in a Scorp and not set up right, unlucky enough to land at a gate with a 1 year old Apoc at range. I'm not gonna fight him. It's also a waste of time saying you can't compete in a 1v1 because you virtually never get a 1v1.
After playing other mmorpgs I know what it's about. You can't play I've got the biggest manhood in EVE because someone comes along and chops it off. You can go around shouting about how much ISK you have, how many SPs you have but when it comes down to it doesn't matter. It's rock, scissor, paper, stone coupled with creative thinking.
Makes no diff if you have the Neutron Blaster of Jovian Dragon Slaying. If Little Noob of Doom has a jammer on he is gonna slap you silly with your own arm. Then you'll be wishing you had recruited the new guy that can only fly a Rifter because right now he could save your ass. The guy you did recruit who has managed the impressive feat of obtaining a Dread in a week by grinding 24/7, is now saying 'sorry I can't him'.
CCP have spent countless hours developing the game so every ship plays its part. So new guys have a place in a fleet. We don't all go in a BS. We have recons, frigs, cruisers, battle cruisers and maybe a command ship.
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Ichabod Dirange
Iscariot Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.13 15:27:00 -
[33]
No.
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Neon Genesis
Gallente
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2006.08.13 16:23:00 -
[34]
New players already have a good headstart, the khanid race 
A 1-2 month old khanid char makes my attributes look like a joke, seriously.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
Jenson Cole
Red Dagger Fleet
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Posted - 2006.08.13 16:49:00 -
[35]
No the new characters don't need a head start.
I can testify to that with my newest character when compareing it to my main which is this account. My alt (which is going to my Fiance :P) in 1 month and 13 days of trainning she's trainning at a rate of 2k-2500 skill points an hour and on track to break the 3 million skill point mark within 2-3 days.
She can fly a Carecal and Kestral and do enough things to enable her to make about 1-2 million isk in an hour with 2 mining lasers on her frigate or if I want to send her off ratting with a friend and she can make just as much.
It's rather funny how people say that the new people need a jump so they can catch up to the older players. It's laughable because one they've been in this game longer than you and by all means should not have the chance of being truly caught up to.
Yes my main has nearly 22 million skill points but I can also fly anything from a Minmatar Frigate up to a Tempest and Cyclone with rather ease. I invested the skill points to fly these ships well and if someone was truly capable of catching my character who has 2 years plus on you then I'd be upset as would many other players who have been in game 3 years plus.
If anything the new players have it rather easy. As an earlier poster stated he had to catch up when CCP nerfed Missiles and Drones. I was in that same boat as well.
Learning Skills were present when I started but I put them off the first 6 months I was in game with this character and to this day am kicking myself in the butt for not trainning them earlier.
CCP has provided all the new players with the means to get your character's trainning fast it just comes down to the question are you willing to put the time in to follow through with the trainning to speed up your overall trainning time.
All you REALLY need is the following to REALLY kick the door open for speed trainning. Science 3 Cybernetics 2 (These two combined allow you to use the basic +3 Implants) and then your basic learning skills. Get those and you're on track for a very fast training character.
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Valan
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Posted - 2006.08.13 17:44:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Valan on 13/08/2006 17:44:37
I started a character at the beginning of March. She's absolutely rattling through the skills. We'll see whether a noob account can compete soon enough.
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Jif Lemming
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Posted - 2006.08.13 17:44:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Jif Lemming on 13/08/2006 17:43:58
Wrong char- FIX the forums!!!!!
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Cmdr Baxter
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.13 18:41:00 -
[38]
No, I don't need a headstart. I may have been only playing for 3 weeks, but I'm doing just fine.
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Nymos
Celtic Anarchy
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Posted - 2006.08.13 19:11:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Nymos on 13/08/2006 19:14:16
Edited by: Nymos on 13/08/2006 19:13:29
headstart? please no.
i remember someone in my previous corp that just started, immediately trained up for raven and the necessary skills for mods, hopped in a corp loaned bship and went out to rat in 0.0 near our pos. i was shaking my head seeing him at the ship maintenance array repairing his armor. i passive tank them for forever. and lacking experience he logged out when a hostile showed up and got ganked for being combat flagged. in his bship by a stealth bomber. didnt even know they got the dps to kill a bship lmao.
there is a reason for slowing down the pace at which new players progress. they need to understand game mechanics and the capabilities of what they are flying. if you are in a bship after one month you are dead very soon, you cant handle flying one. it'll die almost as fast as a cruiser. and there is alot more satisfaction if you finally achieve your goal if you had to wait for it for some time rather than grinding a silly instance for xp. it's like christmas/your birthday etc. would suck if it was every month, boring, nothing to look forward to.
i started early january this year. i didnt have trouble making isk. it was lots of fun to explore eve and see how much it offers and what possibilities there are. a caracal or thorax is a real beast if the pilot knows what he's doing regardless of his SP. of course ships scale with SP, but only with diminishing additional benefit. gang up, 3-5 cruisers and you will do fine.
i can kill higher SP players so why cant you? sure need a basic set of skills first, but why does everyone want the insta-solopwnmobile? what's the goal at lvl60? wait for lvl70? do utterly boring raids for e-peen enhancing loot so one can sit in ironforge and wait for someone to look at his gear and say "omfg d00d ur so leet"? watching a friend of mine playing wow he almost gets a hard-on if he sees a complete epic set (and we're 26, no kids). i was in a high end raiding guild in EQ2. damn was it boring. mobs that aoe the whole zone and rip the main tank a new one almost oneshotting him. and it's all about gear, not your playing skills... and then sony made it all even easier. bad enough that there are no trains, agro is highly predictable with groups of mobs, classes are cookie cutter style, all the same etc. but they topped it by removing the death penalty significantly, increase drop rates of stuff, make mobs even easier, even better drops everywhere. that was the moment i left that game, it horribly sucked. i want a challange....
stop thinking of titans. afaik still noone has a titan. thats why i said understand the game. go mine 3 bn units of trit... i started out to become the ultimate hauler/trader, carebear extraordinaire. while training learning skills and doing some mining, mission running etc i realized that's not what i want to do as i saw more of this game. so i turned 100% pvp now. specialize and, like someone said, dont look what others got. look at what you can do and want to do. personally, i dont care if my neighbor has a ferrari. i dont even have a car because public transport is fine for me (we got real good public transportation here).
edit: analogy to eq/wow was just to underline that eve is just different, most importantly it's not about the biggest ship to kill stuff
--
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.13 19:51:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Jenson Cole
Learning Skills were present when I started but I put them off the first 6 months I was in game with this character and to this day am kicking myself in the butt for not trainning them earlier.
Why didn't you learn them ? Because you probably thought it sucked to spend time for that. You prefered to train for skills that make you better with your ship, allow you to use something new and mean some fun.
If we ever get advanced advanced learning skills, then they will be a real newbie torture.
Before that happens, they should rather increase general learning speed by x percent without skill.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.13 19:59:00 -
[41]
I think the "schools" thing needs to be changed around a lot. Some bloodline choices allow you to get level 5 in a rank 1 skill (256k skill points) and other options give you significantly less skillpoints. I think that every player should come out of character creation with approximately the same number of skillpoints, and the smallest clone should be rescaled to the new minimum number of skillpoints +10 day's training assuming 10 in each attribute, and redudant clone grades removed.
I personally don't really like the idea of the learning skills grind, but its here, and I don't think its ever going to change so you'll just have to work around it...
---
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Roupeh Natanoj
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.13 20:01:00 -
[42]
Hell no. I had to wait for skills to train like everyone else, all new players must do the same.
<><><>
I need to make a new thingie for here. |
Kylania
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.13 20:03:00 -
[43]
NO!
--
Lil Miner
Newbie Skills Roadmap | CCG Card Lookup |
Skraelingz
Gallente
Gallente Federal Bank
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Posted - 2006.08.13 20:05:00 -
[44]
nice sig baxter.
-----------------------------------------------
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Yumi Ren
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Posted - 2006.08.13 20:30:00 -
[45]
I am in my 3rd week of being a pilot in the eve universe and I like how it is. I started off with my Ibis. Now I own a couple of condors and bantams while I am living in Lonetrek doing courier missions and some trades with my bantam, whenever the opportunity arises.
I dont know how much I can contribute to a corporation at the moment, but I know my role right now. I am a small scale trader while working for the corporation Lai Dai.
- Do I have the skills to do it? Yes, I have trained the skills to fulfil the roles I have chosen within my first day.
- Are you successful? Material wise yes. I have earned the ISK to buy my advanced learning skill books and implants for intelligence and memory
- Do I log on, if I know that it will take me 10 hours until my next skill finishes? Yes I do, if I want to play. I play MMO's to socialise and relax. EvE fulfils this condition and I have met many great people within my first 3 weeks, who helped me and bared my newbie questions or just spend some time with me helping me doing level 2 storyline missions, which I could not handle on my own.
What makes EvE unique is its relaxed play style. You can watch TV or play connect 4 in the ingame browser. You can play whenever you want to logon and you are not required to logon every day for 3 hours from x to y so you can participate.
A lot of the game is "waiting" but its greatest assets are the people and players. So far I have met a lot of great people in the game and sometimes I just logon for a chat, while im cooking dinner.
What about my future in EvE?
I have used EvE Mon and designed my character, which will take me 598 days to complete the training marathon. ><
At least I know I will be done by then and in the mean time, I will be looking for a corporation where I can fit in with the roles I want to fulfil.
This is the 2nd unique aspect of EvE: You have the choice.
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Ozmodan
Minmatar
Storm Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.13 20:54:00 -
[46]
Well I see alot of jaded opinions from the veterans. Hard to put yourselves in a young players shoes and be somewhat objective isn't it?
I am at the end of my 2nd month. I do mining ops with the corp a couple days a week, after that I mostly log in and check learning and then log right back out. I have run level 1 and level 2 missions till I am bored to tears. I really need to be in .4 and under, but combat skills are far too low. Dead and podded within the hour everytime I go there.
I don't see that changing much in the next two months, not even sure I will continue playing. Don't take me wrong, I don't mind losing ships and the podding routine. I accept that as part of the game, but I can't have that happen everyday as I would soon be very broke. I can't tell you how many times I have been blown up in one shot in my cruiser, these pirates are extremely well equipped. Nothing like seeing shield, armor and hull indicators turn completely red at once.
So I am reduced to mining to earn money, thank you no. More than half the people I started the game with have left.
I personally think if ccp added more lower end content they would have a much better chance to retain new players. They also need to fix high sec pvp, it is extremely one sided to the aggressors favor right now.
No matter how you slice it, more players means more money for development, if you don't retain new players, this game will go the way of all the other also rans.
Learners permit still current |
Milera
Gallente
Antimatter Assembly Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.13 20:58:00 -
[47]
As a two-three months old player, I have to say that I wouldn't play it any other way than how I have. New players do not need a head start, they really don't. Sure, it would be nice to be able to hold my own in 0.0 (I'm in a Thorax, not heading anywhere close!) and it would be a hell of a lot nicer if I could make some money remotely quickly, but hey.
EVE forced me to take time to learn about how the game works. It forced me to take time to really learn how to play the game, and how to fight. The nature of the game also really made me talk to older players, plan out my skill progression and decide how I really wanted to develop.
When I started, I saw the words "battleship" and went (like most newbies) "oooh... big ship!" and instantly wanted to fly it. After a little while, I realized that HACs are better than the battleships, so why bother trying to train up to a b-ship, instead, I talked to some guys, and put together a quickfit profile of my ideal Deimos HAC. Then I looked at the skills, and plotted them out as long term objectives in EVEMon. Next I set up my short term skills in EVEMon to fly a cruiser, and then later a Assault Ship. And here I am today, training up the weapons skills I need to equip my Enyo while I mine out asteroid fields to make the... 29,989,000 ISK I need to equip the Enyo.
That's what the time makes you do. It really makes you think about how exactly you want to conduct yourself. It also weeds out the idiots who don't understand EVE, or who don't have the patience for EVE. For instance, there was a 10 day old in Oursulaert threatening a guy "I'll bump you if you don't give me missiles!" (actually, it was, "i bump u if no missel"), and thank God for the slow progression, because it might convince him not to play.
-------------------------------------------------
Through war we eliminate the weak, through war we develop technology, through war we hone our skills. Is it not a surprise that those who fight are s |
Tang Jiajean
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Posted - 2006.08.13 21:02:00 -
[48]
posting as a new player...
nope, I am doing fine.. no need for a headstart(but donations in isk are welcome.. hehe.)
the time getting skill trained is the time to get to feel around the game for me...
I dont feel impeded in anyways..(especially my willpower is GIMPED..but high Mem and Intel!.. so it is a trade off)
and yeah, making everybody learn at the same speed seem to eliminate characters that are built for research/combat/manufacturing...makes you feel like a generic player... (well thats how I feel anyways..)
kinda kills the RPG elements...
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
Demon Womb
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Posted - 2006.08.13 21:08:00 -
[49]
Oh jeeees!
some of you guys need to seriouly get lives.
I am restarting eve after a 2.5 years of playing.
I know how i want this chr and i am not letting anyone deviate me from it.
and trust me maxing out learning skills is painful.
I also have a 2nd account i use to pass time she is my mining alt and she will make me iskies.
if you dont know what your doing get adavce and if need be restart eve!
Great Quotes...
INNOMINATE NIGHTMARE > Your mother is an Exotic Dancer and your Sister works in a Quafe Factory..... |
Serenity Steele
Rearden Steele
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.13 22:00:00 -
[50]
Pretty much all the angles here are covered, except the aspect that to be successful in EvE, you need nothing to do with skills, you only need one of:
A.. Team to play with (Corp or Alliance) (or)
Be.. Creative
eg. A character with no skill points trained is capable of flying a frigate, and controlling a fighter drone assigned to it from a corp-mates carrier
eg. Be..fore Aaro'ne Erviale played EvE, there was no EGSE. Now it's the premier trading site for all publically traded shares. Aaron'ne character was created in Feb 2006. He doesn't require a single skill to make his 1% cut on all share trades.
 |
Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.08.13 22:54:00 -
[51]
The new bloodlines are enough of a headstart as it is.
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nahtoh
Caldari
Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.13 23:50:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ozmodan
Well I see alot of jaded opinions from the veterans. Hard to put yourselves in a young players shoes and be somewhat objective isn't it?
I am at the end of my 2nd month. I do mining ops with the corp a couple days a week, after that I mostly log in and check learning and then log right back out. I have run level 1 and level 2 missions till I am bored to tears. I really need to be in .4 and under, but combat skills are far too low. Dead and podded within the hour everytime I go there.
I don't see that changing much in the next two months, not even sure I will continue playing. Don't take me wrong, I don't mind losing ships and the podding routine. I accept that as part of the game, but I can't have that happen everyday as I would soon be very broke. I can't tell you how many times I have been blown up in one shot in my cruiser, these pirates are extremely well equipped. Nothing like seeing shield, armor and hull indicators turn completely red at once.
So I am reduced to mining to earn money, thank you no. More than half the people I started the game with have left.
I personally think if ccp added more lower end content they would have a much better chance to retain new players. They also need to fix high sec pvp, it is extremely one sided to the aggressors favor right now.
No matter how you slice it, more players means more money for development, if you don't retain new players, this game will go the way of all the other also rans.
Blah blah blah whine whine whine, its only the old timers that are aginst it whine some more...
Heres a hint your combat skills are low BECAUSE YOU ARE GRINDING YOUR LEARNING SKILLS...take the good advice from the vets you class as jaded...break up the learning skills...wait until you hit higher skill ranks or have a number of skills to 4 before you do the advanced learning skills.
I also note you totaly ignore the posts before yours from new players that like the way things are...chirst get your head out of the sand for fecks sake...
Most of the basic comabat skills are fairly low in rank as are most of the fitting skills...work out a fairy effcent training schedule or perish the thought train for things that you might actually enjoy doing...Its hardly rocket sciance you know...
=========
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Unus Verumi
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Posted - 2006.08.14 01:11:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Unus Verumi on 14/08/2006 01:11:44
Great arguments, everyone. I think that after reading through almost all of them, that most of you are right about what you are saying. I actually did even more number crunching and such using skill planners just to see how long it would take to say be an efficient Raven pilot. About two months. That is nothing to be honest. I would like to thank everyone for their input, some of it was a little off the wall, some of it missed the point, but for the most part there were some really nice points as to why it is not necessary.
I believe in the end that yes it may not be necessary to give a "boost" to new players. Thanks.
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Mi Lai
Sanguine Legion
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.08.14 01:54:00 -
[54]
I dont think a headstart in form of faster initial training or something isnt needed. What I would love to see is having several Level 5 requirements lowered.
Making Advanced Learnings available at Learning 4 for instance would take away roughly a month (depending on atribs and implants offcourse) of booooring Learning Skill training for decent results. Same could be done for various T2 equipment (T2 Guns and Armor perhaps), so new players get access to some more thrilling content earlier, while the vets still have the advantage of having more Level 5's in those areas.
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Soren
Caldari
PAK
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Posted - 2006.08.14 02:01:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Liu Kaskakka
no
go team!
☠-->-->--
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Calladen Nimitz
Caldari
Libertas Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.14 02:37:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Calladen Nimitz on 14/08/2006 02:41:10
New players have the ability to specialize in careers much greater than we did as veterans. Also they have the ability to still join an established 0.0 alliance and enter the "danger zone" of Eve while under the protection of the veterans. In many ways the new players have it much easier.
No Eve is more about knowledge. I look at myself for example. Two years ago I returned to Eve after a four month break (cancer treatment) and started a brand new character (Archbishop of PIE - the Amarr roleplayer). Archie had zero skills and except for some money I passed onto him not alot of anything else.
What I had though was knowledge steming back to early beta. I trained the learning skills FIRST. I flew cruisers for over a YEAR until I was a capable BS pilot (and thats still debatable with Archie). I focused him on Industry and build HACS and T2 stuff like its nobodys business yet until a few months ago I had more industry skillpoints then combat skillpoints. In a pvp corp like PIE thats not the best but I enjoy it.
New players can read the forums, ask for tips in the help forum, talk in help channel and get advice. They can join a veteran alliance and meet people from beta and ASK QUESTIONS about things. Eve isn't a game to play alone its a team effort. And even if you like going solo there are a ton of resources online to help the new player get started on the right path.
So the answer is NO they dont need a head start. What they need to do is research the game a bit and read whats been put out there by veteran players who want to help before making rash decisions.
NEW PLAYERS GETTING STARTED TIPS AND TRICKS
This webpage is ingame browser compatible and has a TON OF TIPS on it for new players. READ IT, LEARN IT, LIVE IT. I dont know who put it up but its great.
And ask questions. People really do want to help the new players. Just ask.
Calladen Nimitz
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BenYGW
Caldari
Syncore
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.14 02:48:00 -
[57]
When i was a noob (about a year ago) I didnt feel that i was miles behind and needed to catch up.
I havn't specialised (i enjoy so many different races ships) and i didnt train learning until i could fly a Ferox effectivly.
Now if someone has more SP than me it realy makes no difference (and hasnt for a long time)
Maybe its a bit worse now, a year later.. but i dont think new players need a headstart atall
(hey, they already have the new bloodlines)
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Mi Lai
Sanguine Legion
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.08.14 02:53:00 -
[58]
Quote:
New players have the ability to specialize in careers much greater than we did as veterans. Also they have the ability to still join an established 0.0 alliance and enter the "danger zone" of Eve while under the protection of the veterans. In many ways the new players have it much easier.
In order to specialise, you need to have a good understanding of what's on offer in EVE and a good understanding of game mechanics. For a real new player, how is he going to know what he likes and wants to specialise in without having some experience? I know of at least 1 battleship pilot who worked towards his goal of flying one, spend a ton of ISK and skilltime on getting it, only to be disgusted by flying one shortly after, and resorting back to smaller ships.
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JafoPBCFR
Caldari
Copasetic Joint Special Task Force
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Posted - 2006.08.14 03:51:00 -
[59]
Im a noob. took me alittle time yes but im able to fly a few ships effectively. And I didnt need any help from CCP to doit.
Now that being said. Some of the time i spent in the game while trying to get these skills and money for ships and parts. Was boring as heck. Theres where the problem is.
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Karandor
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Posted - 2006.08.14 04:33:00 -
[60]
The slow progression weeds out those who won't like the game. You can get into a BC and grind level 3 missions while doing learning skills. This game is awesome for casual players because you don't need to GRIND GRIND GRIND for levels. Please keep it that way and make it so new players get to take time and learn the game.
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Chiron Typhon
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.14 05:28:00 -
[61]
Unfortunately bumping up learning skills does't help with the two most important skills you need in EVE (or any MMO):
- Friend Making 5 and
- Good Attitude 5
I'm still a relatively new player at 7 months, learning skills are fine as is and never hurt me.
"Draw them in by the prospect of gain, take them by confusion"
-Sun Tzu |
Takeshi Mordain
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Posted - 2006.08.14 15:44:00 -
[62]
I'm a 'noob' to the game, (two weeks old, and I spent about a month playing a couple years ago right before wow came out) but I spend a great deal of time reading forums and browsing web sites and therefore consider myself pretty well informed, compared to most noobs. The way I see it I can contribute pretty fast in pvp when I get around to it by specializing. Most of the vets for example have ship skills of every race, that's months of training in skills they can't even use at the same time. They also have points in mining, industry, trade, social skills, and a number of other things that can be considered fluff if all you want to do is pvp and be competitive. I'm not saying I never want those skills, or they are a waste by any means, just that they aren't necessary for a new character to train. Specializing in a non combat area isn't as big a deal because your not going head to head with other players.
PvP is often done in frigates, even by vets. The wolf packs sound like a lot of fun and I look forward to finding a corp where I can contribute in one. If I lose a frigate no big deal. For that matter a new character can get in a cruiser and have enough skills to be a small threat within a few weeks as well.
Level 5 in a lot of skills, especially the higher tier ones is pretty much just for bragging rights and they can be skipped early on. There are a number of programs around now like quickfit, and evemon, that will help a character train the exact skills they need and tell them the quickest way to get there, the vets didn't have the advantage of these either.
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Moghydin
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.14 15:46:00 -
[63]
New bloodlines give enough advantage to the new players. No further boost is needed.
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Jenson Cole
Red Dagger Fleet
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Posted - 2006.08.14 16:15:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Plutoinum
Why didn't you learn them ? Because you probably thought it sucked to spend time for that. You prefered to train for skills that make you better with your ship, allow you to use something new and mean some fun.
If we ever get advanced advanced learning skills, then they will be a real newbie torture.
Before that happens, they should rather increase general learning speed by x percent without skill.
I put them off out of stupidity. Being the young player I was I made a crap load of mistakes ranging from the train the skills to fly a ship and not the support skills first and so forth. After 6 months of torture and many ship losses later I got myself into a position where I've maxed out all the basic learning skills and most of my advanced Learning Skills are at level 4 or better and am trainning most of my skills at a rate of 1800-2200 skill points an hour. Hence why I'm kicking myself in the rear because if I'd done this earlier than waiting 6 months I'd be a bit further along in my training regiment :P
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Valrandir
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.14 16:27:00 -
[65]
no
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This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware.
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Val Oman
Delta Desperados
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Posted - 2006.08.14 16:49:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Val Oman on 14/08/2006 16:52:38
Since most here are working against the OPs well intentioned thoughts, I will work his side of the discussion.
I agree that there is an issue. I have lost many friends who started EvE because of the slow progress. Its not because they couldn't handle EvE, they basically loved it, but it was the pure bordom of the slow progess. Most of them were ready to fly a cruiser for example, but the in game SP progress was much slower than their real skill progress.
I also agree that the system can't let a 3 week old player jump in a BS...so this is the dilemma.
Of my friends, who has left the game, had a very good suggestion that I think may be a potential solution. He suggested that the lvl1 agents give skill levels as rewards and all the skills would be centered around Frigate skills.
So say a new player enters the game as Amarrian, his first agent specializes in gunnery and gives him a few missions that exercise gunnery skills that get him to lvl3 gunnery, a few more missions get him to lvl3 small laser turrents. So by doing tasks, this new person would learn the basics of the game and achieve useful skills simultaneuosly.
Basically, beef up the tutorial to give new players a better start if they put the effort into it.
I believe this would help EvE out alot more than it would hurt it.
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Valan
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Posted - 2006.08.14 17:41:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Valan on 14/08/2006 17:43:26
Originally by: Ozmodan
I really need to be in .4 and under, but combat skills are far too low. Dead and podded within the hour everytime I go there.
Sorry to be harsh but you may have to admit you're not very good at this game. We've had noobs in frigates in 0.0, most of our guys started in 0.0 and low sec. I took a shuttle through a bubbled gate camp the other day without too much hassle. Lost 1/4 of my shields. The only way you really die is if you don't know what's going on. Every time I've died I've done something wrong. One of the cleverest guys I know died every time he logged on, he had to face facts and quit. I used to run haulers past TWD and Killer Clowns every day before I could even use a BS.
As far as low level agents giving out low level skills. Not a bad idea. You have pointed out one thing to me. You mentioned guns and frigate skills. Engineering, electronic and skills that increase the aspects of all your ships is the way to go. I survived on all my gunnery skills at level 4 for years. You'll have a stronger ship if you're not fitting RCUs and CPUs. I remember Tank CEO posting his skills eons ago. He had more engineering SPs than gunnery and he was considered one of the best at the time.
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.08.14 17:47:00 -
[68]
First off, I don't think it's fair to compair the new player experiance NOW with what it was 2 or 3 years ago. For one thing, the players that had to work thru that time now have all the advantages, so they have nothing to complain about.
But I also don't think new players need any MORE of a boost. I don't think it would hurt. But I don't think it's needed.
Maybe on the fourth year of eve, they should just give every new player the basic learning skills and set of +1 implants (already installed, no selling them). But the game will continue to be good even without that.
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The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain.
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Tabet Saens
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.14 18:26:00 -
[69]
In a few years, just introduce a new caldari bloodline with negative charisma. Problem solved! 
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Edhel
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.08.14 19:05:00 -
[70]
i feel nostalgic thinking about when i was starting out with little to no skillpoints.
also the eve skillpoint system is created so that newer players advance much faster than older players, it's not far from the perfect way to give them that boost you think isn't there.
however a bigger boost i think is not a good idea for reasons many have pointed out before me in this very thread.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced
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Posted - 2006.08.14 19:56:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Nicoli Voldkif on 14/08/2006 19:56:31
First mistake anyone in this game can make on thier first character is to train learning skills up above level 3 right away. Just as a test I wanted to see how long it would take a alt of mine to get into a maller and out fit it at deciently. Total time with out any learning skills 9 days. Add a couple of Specific learning skills and you can shave that down to 7days and 19hours. (none of those learning skills were above lvl III -- forgot to add that)
The problem is taht everyone wants to spend 2months of training learning skills to shave off 3mins off a 15min skill. The first thing I have to do when a new player joins our corp is to get them off the "learnings to 5, adv. to 4" bit.
Something that people tend to not realize is that myself with 10mil SP is not that much better than a 2 day old player, In fact I recently got lost a 1v1 match versus a new corp mate Because he didn't tell me he could fit a Jammer.  let me tell you those 10mil SP really helped me out.
As people have stated there are only so many skills taht actually effect your capabilities in a ship. my 2.5mil indy and mining SP don't help me in a raven nor do all those Assualt ships and T2 Small weapons gear. It is in fact easily possible to pass up a 3year old in APPLICABLE SP in anyone ship. So I guess what we need to get people away from is the Total SP to the Applicable SP and then maybe we will get people to understand the beauty of EVEs skill system
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Jenson Cole
Red Dagger Fleet
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Posted - 2006.08.14 20:11:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif
Edited by: Nicoli Voldkif on 14/08/2006 19:56:31
First mistake anyone in this game can make on thier first character is to train learning skills up above level 3 right away. Just as a test I wanted to see how long it would take a alt of mine to get into a maller and out fit it at deciently. Total time with out any learning skills 9 days. Add a couple of Specific learning skills and you can shave that down to 7days and 19hours. (none of those learning skills were above lvl III -- forgot to add that)
The problem is taht everyone wants to spend 2months of training learning skills to shave off 3mins off a 15min skill. The first thing I have to do when a new player joins our corp is to get them off the "learnings to 5, adv. to 4" bit.
DING! You hit it on the nail. While I'm now a strong advocate for the training of Learning Skills if you're a character who cannot fly a basic ship to the point that you're comfortable and be able to make an amount of isk that you're comfortable with you should NOT be training Learning Skills.
There's a balance to everything and the first priority is the enjoyment you have with the game and you won't get that much enjoyment sitting in dock with a ship. If you're doing that EVE has just became a very expensive IRC chat for you.
If you can run Level 1 or 2 missions you have the ability to make decent money and should begin to consider where you want to place the priority on getting learning skills up.
For those that think you need the boost come up to a high level character and ask them what it took for them to properly equip a battleship when that came into game.
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Takigama
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.14 20:18:00 -
[73]
one thing i would have liked to have seen, and again its hard to decide as a newbie how you'd use it. but something like 3 months of "specilization bonus". i.e. newbie creates a char and decides to specilize in caldari combat, and so get some pre-set training bonus multiplier when training a specific set of skills.
Even have it so it can be "started" (but not stopped) any time within the first three months so a newbie actually does have a chance of going "ahhh, now i get what i want to do, so if i spec in this that'll help me get where im going a bit faster".
Just a thought...
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Urduar
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Posted - 2006.08.15 06:58:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Urduar on 15/08/2006 06:58:22
I'm a new player, almost a month old now.. And I'm having a blast!
One thing I don't think the OP is taking into consideration is that he's not really a new player. He's an old player creating a new char. There really is a difference, and I've been there in a different game.
I guess I'll use myself as an example. A while back I trained to use Destroyers. It seems to be the general opinion that destroyers pretty much suck, other than for popping frigs.
However, at the time, when I actually got to fly one, it wasn't a sucky destroyer. It was A New Ship! And so even if it was a sucky ship, it was something new and fun for me. However, I doubt someone that has flown a BS before would consider a destroyer much of an upgrade from a frig.
If you're a truly new player like myself, you haven't experienced charging forward in a massive battleship launching your Uber Torpedoes Of Massive Death And Destruction™ in pitched battles for the fate of the universe. You've poked at an asteroid in your rookie ship.
Therefore, each upgrade is something new and different. But to someone that's been there done that, it's all just steps to get back to where they've been before, there's no sense of discovery in these stages. So the vet playing the new char really isn't getting the same experience as the true newbie.
Also, a few days ago I had a 1v1 versus a vet, Vexor vs. Vexor. I almost managed to break his shields before mine popped.
Did I feel like it was unfair? No. Because both he and I knew that it wasn't a fight between the same ship, it was basically the equivalent of a T2 Vexor versus a Vexor. So I went into the fight knowing I'd lose, and he gave me tips afterwards which I can use in the future.
As a result, maybe I'll be able to win a fight versus someone with many more SP eventually, which is the great thing about this game. If it was a standard leveled game, I'd never have a chance against someone much higher level.
Anyway, I don't think newbies need to be buffed, we're doing just fine right now!
P.S. Rabbit Reflexes V is the most important skill for newbies going into lowsec.
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Rick Dentill
Rage of Angels
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.15 08:25:00 -
[75]
As I read this I was just recalling my own start in EVE. My first corp was made up of newer players all still learning the game, so I didnÆt actually discover the importance of the ôattribute enhancingö learning skills till a while later.
Initially therefore I was pretty slow in the learning stakes, but it was still so much fun, taking a while to get frigate 3 meant I had the time to make the isk to buy a tier 3 frigate, then getting a destroyer and a hauler for mining. Even then I was lucky, 6 months or so before I joined, destroyers didnÆt exist so new players then didnÆt get that benefit, same with battlecruisers, which I used to make a lot of my early isk. Getting the isk for an osprey took a bit longer, but then getting frig 4 took a while anyway. So things developed like that.
My initial intention had been to be a combat pilot, but things went off tangentially and ended up a miner then moving off into production too. With my delay in learning learning skills I was slightly gimped but didnÆt really know it at the time. It took me 17 days to get production efficiency level 5. It took me about 12 on my alt. But I was so proud to have made that achievement.
I think the real problem for newer players is that older players ôhelpfullyö in almost a mantra say ôyou must get learning skills up as quickly as possible.ö But what more people need to say is, ôyes do your learning skills, but train something to have fun with too.ö Barring frig 4 and mining 4, most early easily obtainable content only requires level 1 to 3 of a skill to use, so you can always stop a learning skill, train a couple of levels of electronics, jump back to learning, get mechanic level 1 and armour rep skill, and so on. Its only boring if you let it become boring.
To touch on one area that some people have mentioned, a big part of EVE is who you play with. I have some friends who have set up an industry corp and along with all sorts of other bonuses will sit in a belt, mine in a barge then share the ore they mine between the corp members who came along. EVE is so much about working together, though as with my early days, it is just as fun being semi solo but only if you let it.
I didnÆt expect to write this much, so I will close now with an analogy. EVE can be an overwhelming game, and it brings to mind something in the ôPrelude to Duneö novels. I imagine many people have read those here. Two of the characters go to be tested to become navigators, they are given on overdose of spice gas. One of them is overwhelmed, panics and fails, the other embraces it and succeeds. EVE I find is a lot like that.
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http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd |
Asharin
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.15 12:05:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Asharin on 15/08/2006 12:06:41
Not read the whole thread, just some of it, but as a newer player I figured I'd throw in a few words (sorry)
I think it's fine as is, if you wanan go out and PvP you can do a dedicated set of training, set skills and have fun pvping with those skills, you'll be able to fight 2yr vets just fine.
Personally I trained a a mix, not really interested in pvp just yet, but that's my next set of training, after I finish the learning skills.
What I did was train up to a retriever, and the mid range hauler, to make some cash while I trained up to be able to run lv3 missions.
I still have a LOT of training to go, but I can make decent ISK now, so I'm not bothered about the time it's going to take finishing up my learning skills.
Basically, I did all the basic learning skills to lvl 4, then did other stuff, then got some ISK makin skills up, and some basic combat skills.
Now I'm doing the learning skills to lvl5 then gonna go on to the advanced.
So you CAN do all the learning skills first, and I can see the benefits of that, but it can seem boring, so I did it my way, and it's been more fun...I think I woulda quit outta boredom if I'd done soley learning skills to start.
-edit meh typos, you can keep 'em
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Juwi Kotch
Gallente
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
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Posted - 2006.08.15 12:48:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Juwi Kotch on 15/08/2006 12:49:17
I'm asking myself, what would I like to have a headstart in? I'm a bit more then a year old and have crossed the 15mil skillpoint mark a couple days ago. I have Gallente cruiser (the only cruiser skill I have) at 3, and haven't even bought a Battlecruiser or Battleship skill. Any 3 months old player can kill me.
I have invested a lot of time in learning skills. Because I did that, I have now a couple millions more skillpoints then other players which are a couple months older then me, however, they've been able to kill me since I'm around, and to solo lvl4 kill missions for months as well, while I'm still struggling with the easier lvl 3 kill missions.
Doing the learning is one of the decisions everyone has to do for himself. You don't do it, you will be deadly much earlier. You do it, you will be prey for months, but catch up and become better years later. In effect, everyone decides on his own, whether he sacrificies time for a headstart (2 or 3 months for learning, and then starting the game earnestly), or not.
Juwi Kotch
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