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Got an official answer about the portrait Db thing the goons use

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Selena 001	Posted - 2006.08.15 23:53:00 - [121] So if I were to goto my cache folder, and replace every enemy portrait with a big red X, I could be banned? runs away to remove the customised U.I. she created That sucks ___________ NATIONAL SARCASM DAY!!
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.08.16 00:19:00 - [122] I find it lame that someone had to actually code what should already be part of the game itself. You can currently check the standings of every single pilot in local at all times. It is just a hideously boring chore. Right now, most people already do what the goons are going, we just do it in a less efficient but non-exploit fashion - we add hostiles to the friends list. You pop local and see greens in the list and you know you have targets. Eve local should already show standings by every pilot listed. That's a flaw in the game. Let's have CCP fix that.
Taaketa Frist The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.16 01:11:00 - [123] Constellation or Region chat only plz. KK thxs. -------------- Dang nabit
Verone	Posted - 2006.08.16 02:30:00 - [124] Originally by: Sorja Since local is to be removed in Kali, this is irrelevant Originally by: Wild Rho YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES! \/ <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3 BACKSTORY AND FAN FICTION
Aeina Caeraen Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2006.08.16 04:28:00 - [125] You've obviously missed the other thread, verone :P Also, yes, if the program found multiple instances where the 10 pixel has at say, the top left of an image wasn't correct or was missing, then it may become suspicious, grounds for an investigation or a ban, even. Where, however, would you tell the program to stop considering a missing has to be "a program error or file corruption" and tell it that "these files have obviously been tampered with and the user deserves a ban?" What if, hypothetically, I was at war with Random Corp A, a corp with 5 members, and I decide to replace their cache portraits with 5 images with static, or a solid black color? Could I not make an argument that these were legitimate image corruptions? What if the corp I was at war with had only 4 members? 20? 100? a single alt noob? I'm still of the opinion that in such a situation, the far better solution, if one is available, is to simply try and design a system that is less easily manipulated. I remember hearing about when it used to be possible to spoof bookmarks because they were stored locally. (Forgive me if I'm incorrect, as this is hearsay) If I remember correctly, a group found a way to farm the data and create bookmarks off scanner scans, which allowed nearly instantaneous safespot breaking. CCP then changed the system so BMs were stored serverside and organized locally. As far as I'm concerned, it's something the devs should try to brainstorm about, and if, in the end, they can't think of anything, then they should come to the forums and say that, as if it's something that cannot be fixed, then it's simply something that should be declared legitimate, and the decision should be given to the playerbase as to if using it constitutes a morally objectionable way of playing the game. (Wow, that's a long sentence, I should probably break it up, but I'm on some sort of tirade and I'm lazy)
K Shara Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.16 07:52:00 - [126] thing is I dont care if you have 5 wrong images or something. its when close to 3000 players have 8000 images
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.16 08:19:00 - [127] Originally by: Dark Shikari Thus, no image can be used in EVE except one that was processed by the EVE client in this manner. The processing itself would be extremely fast, and would hardly use any processor power. Thanks for the explanation, get where you're coming from now. Sounds like a good solution to me. Originally by: Aeina Caeraen What if, hypothetically, I was at war with Random Corp A, a corp with 5 members, and I decide to replace their cache portraits with 5 images with static, or a solid black color? Could I not make an argument that these were legitimate image corruptions? What if the corp I was at war with had only 4 members? 20? 100? a single alt noob? Well, if the corruption was supposed to be due to an error in rendering the portrait (no hair etc), the hash as Dark shikari has explained would still be present and useful as a check. They would be able to tell the difference between a portrait generated with no hair, and one that you photoshopped the hair out of. If you're claiming corruption of the stored file, then yes, it's possible for the hash to get corrupted along with that. But there are known patterns and ways that corruption can affect these images, which would severely limit the modifications that could be passed off as that. If there were a large number of such "corrupted" portraits, or the same portraits were seen to become "corrupted" multiple times, it would quickly raise the question how such a supposedly unreliable hard drive is managing to only corrupt portraits, and not any more vital game files. Of course, even if you do judge it so that they can't be sure enough to ban you, the client will still be able to use the hash to recognise "corrupted" images, and could be set to clear them out of the cache and regenerate them anytime the portrait is loaded. All you'd then achieve is give yourself lag as it re-renders all the portraits. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.16 08:27:00 - [128] bump
Twilight Moon Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.16 08:47:00 - [129] How is the goons DB thing any different from me adding enemies to my buddies list? Both do exactly the same thing, ie, clearly denote an emeny in local without having to Show Info. Do the Goons just download a set of character portraits from the SA forums that have all hostiles already marked, without them ever having to meet, or be linked to, the hostile? That would be a bit much imho. ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.16 09:20:00 - [130] Originally by: Twilight Moon Do the Goons just download a set of character portraits from the SA forums that have all hostiles already marked, without them ever having to meet, or be linked to, the hostile? That would be a bit much imho. Yes, that is exactly what they do. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
MysticNZ Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.16 09:30:00 - [131] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/08/2006 03:18:29 Originally by: Aeina Caeraen I agree, but then you'd get massive issues with people complaining about privacy issues. I assume you're familiar with Blizzard's WoW "Warden" program, and how you would actually need a more invasive program than that for the current situation. Since the GS "program" is done completely clientside (and doesn't even involve an active system process, to boot), you'd actually need to see if individual image files had been altered, and doing so, even uncommon random checking, would involve either wasting GM time, or getting a slow, and incredibly error-prone server program to check the integrity of your cache folder every time you started the game. EVE already parses the entire cache folder when you log in, which is why a huge portraits folder makes your game client lag on login. The solution is simple. Tag every single portrait with an info tag (in the info fields of the image header). Do this without warning, and without telling anyone, and clear the portraits folder of everyone automatically when the patch goes out. Then, have the client silently report back who has images in their folder that don't have the proper header on them. Better yet, have the header code be a salted hash of 10 specific pixels from the image. Then it would be impossible to fake. This would introduce zero lag and would actually be very easy to code. It would be far easier making a hash table and get the crc for every image when it's downloaded. Wrong crc it requests another image from the server. Simple... Anyway, stop crying about it. -=====-
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.16 09:34:00 - [132] Originally by: MysticNZ It would be far easier making a hash table and get the crc for every image when it's downloaded. Wrong crc it requests another image from the server. Simple... Anyway, stop crying about it. Yeah, but as was already pointed out, the images are created clientside from server data, so CRC checking wouldn't work. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:41:00 - [133] This is all stemmed from wanting standings in local chat. To be honest this is something that has been requested a few times. I know people say to just right-click and show info, but there is a good 1-2 second delay whilst your client generates a portrait, and just try doing that when your standings change and you warp into a system of 50 new pilots.
Zothike Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:55:00 - [134] Sorry to be 'half' off topic, but where did you read that local will be removed??
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:59:00 - [135] Originally by: FireFoxx80 This is all stemmed from wanting standings in local chat. Just because some people want it does not make it a good idea, and certainly does not justify cheating to get it. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Linerra Tedora Avarice Industries	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:01:00 - [136] one solution could also be that instead of all pictures showing character portraits, it could be set to only show the persons corp. EvE-CCG Spoiler Database
Twilight Moon Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.16 15:00:00 - [137] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Twilight Moon Do the Goons just download a set of character portraits from the SA forums that have all hostiles already marked, without them ever having to meet, or be linked to, the hostile? That would be a bit much imho. Yes, that is exactly what they do. Oh, well yeah, thats a bit much really. Basically all their pilots know who's going to shoot at them, right from the point where they start playing the game? ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Kowaii Hitori Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.16 19:07:00 - [138] Originally by: Sorja Since local is to be removed in Kali, this is irrelevant Now, if they don't remove local, they better give this functionnality to everybody otherwise some will have it, so won't (anyone reminds of UOXtreme back in 1997?). This is wonderful, add's to the realism that is this game. Now if they could modify scanners to cross reference data given by corp mates so that I don't have to scan and ask who is who if by some chance they have some odd name.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.16 19:52:00 - [139] Originally by: Avon Originally by: FireFoxx80 This is all stemmed from wanting standings in local chat. Just because some people want it does not make it a good idea, and certainly does not justify cheating to get it. Granted. BUT; it's already there. It's not that people want it added; they just want it to be faster. If it was removed altogether (kill local) or made quicker (have icons in chat show an overview mark, cross, star, or whatever) then this wouldn't be an issue either way. Which of those you support is, of course, up to you; but for crying out loud, let's have one or the other, instead of everyone having to frantically show info on everyone else in local to see who the hell they are. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.16 20:00:00 - [140] yea, gosh forbid you habe to work to identify your enemies at the start of a campaign.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.16 20:09:00 - [141] I thought of a third option. Keep local, but don't show portraits; just the names of who's there. Probably someone already suggested this. I can't be bothered to check. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Aeina Caeraen Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2006.08.16 22:05:00 - [142] Originally by: K Shara thing is I dont care if you have 5 wrong images or something. its when close to 3000 players have 8000 images Where do you draw the line between "don't care" and "omgwtfhaxsploit!" ? That's the point I was getting at, and a key reason why active GM moderation of exploiting will never work, and why modifying the game to disallow something is a far better solution. Also, maya, that's an interesting point, but doing that currently to get the "green square" of hostile identification +10 is massive work for everyone who wants it, as well as massive lag on your end, especially if you're lazy and don't purge your buddylist from time to time :P
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.16 22:09:00 - [143] Well yes... changes might be necessary, but I'd like to still make people work for their intel, within the current local system. "Where do you draw the line between "don't care" and "omgwtfhaxsploit!" ?" That's a detail which it's up to CCP to code, with biases they decide, etc.
arbitrary Bad luck Clover Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.16 22:13:00 - [144] for me the current situation is unlogical and removes immersion, also I hate adding people to my adress book, now filled with enemies, but no friends at all. So agree with those that want to see this exploit/hack a feature in game, that is unless they nuke local ___ Arbi all I want is for you to smile.
Ozmodan Minmatar Storm Industries	Posted - 2006.08.16 22:37:00 - [145] There has been no official announcement that local is being removed in Kali. If such does happen and ccp does not provide a method of scanning or probes to alert players of entry into the system of disreputable people, then you can kiss this game goodbye. Players will leave in droves, gives the gankers all the advantages. I don't think ccp is that dumb to lose half the playerbase. Can't believe some of you think this will be good, basically makes low sec a no fly zone for most players. Some of you need to think about what happens through out the game before you go spouting off on what you are familiar with. Learners permit still current
GrumpyCat	Posted - 2006.08.16 22:43:00 - [146] I replaced all the MC portrait pictures with BOB portrait pictures in my cache folder.
Akira Kaneshiro Caldari Associated Press	Posted - 2006.08.16 23:02:00 - [147] the protrait database is exploit: YES CCP will do something against 3000 paid customers: NO
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.08.16 23:13:00 - [148] No one is considering just how stupid it would be for CCP to punish(or even ban) all the goons. Wherever you went - here you are.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.16 23:18:00 - [149] Originally by: Ghoest No one is considering just how stupid it would be for CCP to punish(or even ban) all the goons. depends on two things: One, do they really believe this is a bannable exploit. I dunno. We know it's an exploit, but how bad? Two, do they care more about taking in money, or more about their game. It's already been proven, MANY times, that they care about the game a lot more than they care about the profit margin. If they decide it should be punished, they WILL do so. So 3,000 subscriptions are removed? Who cares. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Tribunal Darkblade Technologies Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.16 23:20:00 - [150] Local is not being removed. Some tard took a quote seriously which led to all the "local is going to be nerfed" nonsense. The address book does the exact same thing as what people are complaining about the goons doing, so I really do not see why CCP should invest any time into "fixing" this. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers

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