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Nyxus GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.17 01:05:00 - [151] So if someone made an application that basically showed people in local in a seperate window like TS with the Red/Blue/Neutral background with name/corp/alliance in it would that be ok? Because I would definitely use something like that if it was ok. It seems the violation of the EULA occurs when the info was is put back in the Eve Client. If I had a little positionable scrolly window that worked like a mini local I would just stick it "always on top" and seems like it would be VERY usefull. I have to agree with Elve though. CCP should be putting this in Kali since we have been asking for something like this since right after the game started. Either that or nerfing the intel ability of local completely. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.17 07:39:00 - [152] Originally by: Nyxus So if someone made an application that basically showed people in local in a seperate window like TS with the Red/Blue/Neutral background with name/corp/alliance in it would that be ok? Potentially. The problem is twofold: - You cannot easily link Character IDs/Names/Corporations/Alliances, unless you got everyone to log into an IGB site which logged them. - You cannot easily link Characters to a System. Saying that though, and at risk of this being a sploit, so mods please delete beyond this point: You could work with the logserver and the machonet cache to establish exactly which cache file is responsible for 'current people in local'. Sc*****that every 30s, grab all the above info, display in your own app. You're not putting any data back into eve, but you are looking into files and gaining a tactical advantage. Oh, and I don;t know how this would be done, so don;t ask.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.17 08:02:00 - [153] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Originally by: Nyxus So if someone made an application that basically showed people in local in a seperate window like TS with the Red/Blue/Neutral background with name/corp/alliance in it would that be ok? Potentially. Originally by: Terms of Service 20. You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game. That should be pretty clear. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
K Shara Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.17 08:12:00 - [154] this is different to adding people to your address book because it uses out of game stuff. Your address book will give a person who is in it a little green square on their portrait if they are online. this EXPLOIT shows a customer portrait based on your alliance and corp. its up to 8000 portraits or so, that at least 3000 players are using to cheat.
Infinity II	Posted - 2006.08.17 08:30:00 - [155] The difference between TS is that TS doesnt tap into EvE at all. Its completely separate. Think of it as a free long distance conference call while your playing EvE. On the other hand directly modifying data that EvE loads and displays on the client and tapping into the datastream etc are directly interfacing with the EvE game and are exploits.
DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.08.17 12:55:00 - [156] I think you people are taking this just a tad bit too far. The EULA is not an all encompassing legal document (in fact I doubt it would hold any merit legally - ask Microsoft) with what people have assumed to be all wide reaching powers of enforcement. Obviously it didn't go through an internationally experienced legal team prior to being implemented as there are quite a few wordings that violate existing rights and freedoms guaranteed in most countries. In saying that however, there is the 'spirit' or intent of the wording, and thankfully it is none of you who do the interpretation. If it was, I doubt anyone would be playing Eve as you do not have the capability to understand the business impacts of your 'potential' rulings based on certain wording the EULA contains. So let me enlighten you as to what CCP has to take into consideration. As you are aware, CCP accepts credit card payment which means they must maintan a merchant account with each of the accepted credit card companies or use a bill processor. In order to maintain a merchant account, a hefty deposit and 'acceptance' of the credit card companies rules by CCP is established. The biggest rule to be concerned with is in regards to 'the customer is always right' which is backed up with 'you don't get your money for <insert time period here> to make sure the charges are correct' thus creating a nice form of protection for the consumer. In more common terms, it is referred to as a 'chargeback' where a customer files a complaint in regards to the charges. The complaint can be for any reason - no service, poor service, stupidity, etc, which makes it quite easy for the credit card companies to protect its clients - you, the credit card holder. You see, credit card companies love to make 5-29% interest off of the individual and really couldn't care less about the merchant, who if was recieving complaints is probably bad for business anyhow. To put it further into perspective, CCP generating their revenue from an Internet based service is no different in the credit card companies eyes than adult entertainment sites. So if CCP tends to go with what most of you interpret as 'violations' and started banning accounts on those basis, not only would they lose future revenue but their credit card charge holdbacks would put them in a serious financial bind. That is just the tip of the iceberg. In some jurisdictions (such as the one I live in), I am entitled to chargeback up to a one year as well as go after potential damages for lost time, emotional distress, etc by suing the merchant account through the credit card company. Once again they will be more than willing to co-operate as they have already agreed to do so in order to appease Government protection regulations. Now for one or two people, not a big deal. Hundreds on the other hand will swamp CCP thus costing them even more in employee time through accounting. And why stop there? In the U.S., you can find out who is backing CCP (I think Vivendi is iirc) and file a suit against their directors. In the very least it will shake them up and quite possibly bring out the nerf bat. Possible, yes, probable, no. Why? Because CCP makes their own interpretations at their discretion based on risk. If the individual has the means (knowledge, resources, motivation) to go through with action, then it isn't in CCP's best interest to stir up the hornets nest. The possibility exists as there are a large number of lawyers, doctors, dentists, judges and other professionals that play Eve and know how the system works. That group wouldn't hesitate to make the few phone calls necessary if irritated enough by a silly ruling that cost them many hours of entertainment. Then again we don't often get ourselves into such situations, but have the knowledge to deal with them. So, I hope that put some context into light. Afterall, from the sounds of it most of you would consider renaming the Eve shortcut icon an EULA violation.....
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.17 13:09:00 - [157] Originally by: DropZone 187 Stuff The EULA doesn't have to be a legal document for CCP to enforce it. It states the circumstances in which it may suspend your access to their system. If you break the EULA, and CCP ban you, your credit card company will do nothing for you (unless CCP continue to charge). You knew the access conditions, and you chose to ignore them. The CC company are not going to take CCP to court for following their own guidelines when you break them. If you feel that paying CCP for access to their system gives you right above those granted (and limited) by the EULA and the TOS, then you can take them to court. That is your only option. The EULA may not be legally binding, but unless it directly infringes on rights you have where you live, or you challenge it in court, it is the set of rules which governs what CCP can do ... and you have agreed to be subject to those rules. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Antetma University of Caille	Posted - 2006.08.17 13:42:00 - [158] Edited by: Antetma on 17/08/2006 13:43:00 Originally by: "Terms of Service" 20. You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game. The TOS is a very fuzzy document. It's worded such that everything that could even be considered an exploit will fall under it, but after it comes down to what they choose to get rid of or not. The above quote is from the TOS: "nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game." I'm pretty sure that EVEmon and Quickfit both fall under this category, yet CCP not only ignores the fact that these programs exist with regards to the TOS, they are quite interested in them and endorse their usage.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.17 13:46:00 - [159] Originally by: Antetma Edited by: Antetma on 17/08/2006 13:43:00 Originally by: "Terms of Service" 20. You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game. The TOS is a very fuzzy document. It's worded such that everything that could even be considered an exploit will fall under it, but after it comes down to what they choose to get rid of or not. The above quote is from the TOS: "nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game." I'm pretty sure that EVEmon and Quickfit both fall under this category, yet CCP not only ignores the fact that these programs exist with regards to the TOS, they are quite interested in them and endorse their usage. If CCP choose to explicitly allow something, then that is fine. However, unless that endorsement is given, the EULA and the TOS apply. CCP are perfectly within their rights to choose what they feel is acceptable. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.08.17 13:50:00 - [160] Originally by: Avon Originally by: DropZone 187 Stuff The EULA doesn't have to be a legal document for CCP to enforce it. It states the circumstances in which it may suspend your access to their system. If you break the EULA, and CCP ban you, your credit card company will do nothing for you (unless CCP continue to charge). You knew the access conditions, and you chose to ignore them. The CC company are not going to take CCP to court for following their own guidelines when you break them. If you feel that paying CCP for access to their system gives you right above those granted (and limited) by the EULA and the TOS, then you can take them to court. That is your only option. The EULA may not be legally binding, but unless it directly infringes on rights you have where you live, or you challenge it in court, it is the set of rules which governs what CCP can do ... and you have agreed to be subject to those rules. Avon, you might be good at what you do in BoB/Eve, but please stick to what you know. You aren't as knowledgeable about merchant accounts and how the credit card companies operate. In summary, credit cards are simply transaction agents. There is a reason behind the protection measures - the credit card companies are obligated to provide protection from a liability perspective. Especially in these types of cases where an agreement for terms of service(s) violate(s) principle charters for fair usage with the final determination at the sole discretion of the vendor.... No courts involved. The agreement stipulations in the merchant account are quite clear. As I said in my first post, CCP has agreed to them, and those supercede their EULA. Yes, they can still ban you account for any reason, but as a consumer you still have solid recourse. One that the credit card companies will enforce for you on your behalf irregardless of what agreement CCP has with you. If you need an example, go look at paypal. I will leave it at that with the recommendation that you should look into it before contradicting someone who deals with it on a regular basis.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.17 13:54:00 - [161] Edited by: Avon on 17/08/2006 13:56:56 Originally by: DropZone 187 Avon, you might be good at what you do in BoB/Eve, but please stick to what you know. You aren't as knowledgeable about merchant accounts and how the credit card companies operate. You do know what I do for a living, right? Trust me, no CC company in the UK would try and obtain a refund for you if you had your account banned for failing to comply with CCP's rules. The only thing they would consider is reclaiming payments which took place after the service was suspended. ** Added: Actually, I don't know what AMEX would do - only MasterCard and VISA. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.08.17 14:17:00 - [162] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 17/08/2006 13:56:56 Originally by: DropZone 187 Avon, you might be good at what you do in BoB/Eve, but please stick to what you know. You aren't as knowledgeable about merchant accounts and how the credit card companies operate. You do know what I do for a living, right? Trust me, no CC company in the UK would try and obtain a refund for you if you had your account banned for failing to comply with CCP's rules. The only thing they would consider is reclaiming payments which took place after the service was suspended. ** Added: Actually, I don't know what AMEX would do - only MasterCard and VISA. No I don't know what you do for a living, but I would initially say it isn't in this industry. Or if it is, you are definitely not on a policy development or legislative compliance level. You have yet to make reference to acknowledgement of the merchant account (or anything about it) which is a fundamental aspect of the credit card system. VISA, AMEX and MASTERCARD are all U.S. based for policy decisions. Even though they are registered out of various countries for tax advantages and their ownership is strictly privately held by banks, their worldwide policies are driven out of the U.S. to ensure that the bare minimum requirements of the highest Government legislative consumer protection measures are implemented throughout the world. Anyhow, we can spatter back and forth all day but I know I am right having had to deal with clients in the situation on a much larger scale. Unless you are consulting to CCP, I can't see why you would be disagreeing with it anyhow - the simplest solution is to just have everyone contact their credit card company and ask about the protection/their rights as a consumer? Besides, I was done being a 'cool kid' a number of years ago when it was time to make some good mulla....and this discussion doesn't make me any mulla....
K Shara Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.17 14:32:00 - [163] Edited by: K Shara on 17/08/2006 14:33:36 Dropzone you are wrong. Think of it this way. You pay to enter a cinema but you are loud and disruptive. You can be expelled eeven though you have paid for entry. Another example. You are on public transport and choose to smoke. As its no smoking you can be expelled even if you havn't reached the destination you have paid for. Also. POST WITH YOUR MAIN And yes I do work for an international online retailer and service provider, and yes I checked before I posted.
Simon Illian Caldari Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.17 15:02:00 - [164] Edited by: Simon Illian on 17/08/2006 15:03:03 is this an exploit : 1¦ I set an IGB website will a link to all my ennemi, now i give the adress to all my mate (corp/alliance), and they can add they own know ennemies. 2¦ The chain the right click -> Add to adress book from the IGB Website. 3¦ Now they have massive lag (trust me when the server crash, lot of ppl log in/out, it's laggy), the same advantage as the ppl who have use the program (they know who are they ennemies, before seeing them), and it's an exploit or not ? Replacing/creating image of the cache : => you knwow you'r ennemi => can allow the PROPER usage of the BUDDYlist, and not the OWNZ'exploit to know when they connect, and they are ennemis cause they are in you'r buddylist. Apparently using the Goon program is less an exploit (exploit in the sense of : used not in the way it's build) cause you can't know when they go online/offline. And i suppose far lesser charge to the server (a goon have probably less buddy, so less information to have.) Maybe providing an easy/ accesible program to do that can make all teh ppl easy. i've see a program who overlay a number of circle for allwing faster scan time, it's an exploit too ?
Double TaP The Establishment	Posted - 2006.08.17 15:26:00 - [165] I guess I should uninstall quickfit because I shouldn't be able to see how I can fit a ship and what its stats would be without doing the full page of math or being in-game with the ship because that gives me an unfair advantage to people that arnt in game and wonder how their ship should be fitted. This thread is officially silly.
DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.08.17 15:28:00 - [166] Originally by: K Shara Edited by: K Shara on 17/08/2006 14:33:36 Dropzone you are wrong. Think of it this way. You pay to enter a cinema but you are loud and disruptive. You can be expelled eeven though you have paid for entry. Another example. You are on public transport and choose to smoke. As its no smoking you can be expelled even if you havn't reached the destination you have paid for. Also. POST WITH YOUR MAIN And yes I do work for an international online retailer and service provider, and yes I checked before I posted. 1. I am posting with a main. 2. Loud and disruptive. I don't think CCP can make a claim of you interfering with others enjoyment of the game by modifying your own client/computer settings. As well, it all depends on the scenario in the movie theatre. If I paid by VISA and got kicked out, if it was worth my while, I would make the call. But normally that would have been precipitated by some other action such as a) the movie was really bad, b) usher didn't like me c) allergic reaction to some ungodly food. Actually, the realistic corelation to your example would be someone null routing level 3's backbone for a day which is quite a bit more extreme than altering a client. *** ok, I just thought of another flaw in your example. What if the person suffered from Down's syndrome (sp) or some other affliction that caused the behaviour? Ejecting the person on those grounds without renumeration can end up with some hefty fines and massive bad publicity. 3. Smoking would get you nailed under another piece of legislation. And these days probably get you sued civilly by those around you for second hand smoke damage. 4. You can work for whoever doing whatever. If you are in a position that deals with the financials and have access, then go read your merchant agreement. Alternatively if you use a processor such as ibillz or verisign, read that agreement. It should provide some insight. Anyhow, the whole point that I did bring up is that there is recourse whether you agree with it or not. People have to find out for themselves, I was just pointing them out. CCP/Eve does not have all encompassing power; they are not a religion nor are they a Government. They are subject to rules and stipulations of their own agreements with external entities that govern how they run their business. It is subject to risk management just as every other business operating in a capitalist model is forced to do so. But the more interesting and important point that I brought up is the extreme that you people interpret the EULA as if were words from some higher being......I have yet to see anyone from CCP lay down a hammer so hard as many of the fear mongers in these forums have prescribed. For one I think it retracts from the credit CCP deserves and secondly it makes this community generally look ignorant, even though that would be considered a generalization. Bah, political correctness.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.17 15:39:00 - [167] Originally by: Avon Originally by: FireFoxx80 Originally by: Nyxus So if someone made an application that basically showed people in local in a seperate window like TS with the Red/Blue/Neutral background with name/corp/alliance in it would that be ok? Potentially. Originally by: Terms of Service 20. You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game. That should be pretty clear.
Haks'he Lirky Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.17 15:42:00 - [168] "2. Loud and disruptive. I don't think CCP can make a claim of you interfering with others enjoyment of the game by modifying your own client/computer settings. As well, it all depends on the scenario in the movie theatre. If I paid by VISA and got kicked out, if it was worth my while, I would make the call. But normally that would have been precipitated by some other action such as a) the movie was really bad, b) usher didn't like me c) allergic reaction to some ungodly food. Actually, the realistic corelation to your example would be someone null routing level 3's backbone for a day which is quite a bit more extreme than altering a client." One second, they are altering things which have not been authorised by CCP. Also you say it doesn't interfer with others enjoyment, although they do gain a clear advantage over the other side by the changes which in-turn disrupts others enjoyment. I dont care to comment on the legal implications because I know nothing of it, but they are gaining a clear advantage which then effects others game play and enjoyment. With all the above babble I could file a law suite for feeling inferior to the goons hacks and that some how they have affected me in real life and i now have manic depression and a infirotrity complex.
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.08.17 15:47:00 - [169] Talking about legality of enforcing TOS's and EULA's in this discussion is pointless and irrelevant. Dropzone 187 do you honestly think that the entire corp using this addon to EVE shouldn;t be banned for it? You know as well as everyone else that what these clowns were doing is CHEATING. Do you want to play a game where that kind of client manipulation is allowed? What's next, auto-scanner addons? Hacks that see through cloaks? ISK-duping? Honestly, sometimes reading these forums I despair of the human race. What a bunch of tards sometimes.
K Shara Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.17 15:52:00 - [170] Edited by: K Shara on 17/08/2006 15:56:03 arrgggg you dont get it do you. And over here in the UK its not illegal to smoke on public transport just not allowed by the T&C's of using the transport :) My examples have flaws yes, but take them in the spirit they are meant basically what I was saying is that if your breach the conditions under which they (ccp) offer you a service and whch you agreed to abide. By registering and accepting the EULA. They can terminate your account and refuse to offer the service to you. At most all they would need to do is refund the balence of any outstanding subscription.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.17 15:55:00 - [171] Originally by: Double TaP I guess I should uninstall quickfit because I shouldn't be able to see how I can fit a ship and what its stats would be without doing the full page of math or being in-game with the ship because that gives me an unfair advantage to people that arnt in game and wonder how their ship should be fitted. This thread is officially silly. No, because CCP have said it is okay. CCP have decided that changing character portraits is not okay. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.17 16:00:00 - [172] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Double TaP I guess I should uninstall quickfit No, because CCP have said it is okay. CCP have decided that changing character portraits is not okay. It'd be good to see an official list. What I do the rest of the time.
Kalaan Oratay The Imperial Commonwealth	Posted - 2006.08.17 16:06:00 - [173] Module name: Comsys Hot Wire (low/mid/hi?) Passive. Equiping this module removes you from local, but doesn't allow you to view the local channel either. This poorly thought out idea has been brought to you by Kal hides --- Originally by: Archilies Ignore what others say: Fit what you want, with what you have, whenever you want.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.17 16:07:00 - [174] Originally by: FireFoxx80 goodbye TriExporter (which rules out the BoB CGI film), We don't use TriExporter to extract the models. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.17 16:08:00 - [175] Originally by: Avon Originally by: FireFoxx80 goodbye TriExporter (which rules out the BoB CGI film), We don't use TriExporter to extract the models. Actually I suspect you create your own hi-poly models. But that ruins my argument somewhat. However, triexporter has been used by others. What I do the rest of the time.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.17 16:11:00 - [176] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Originally by: Avon Originally by: FireFoxx80 goodbye TriExporter (which rules out the BoB CGI film), We don't use TriExporter to extract the models. Actually I suspect you create your own hi-poly models. But that ruins my argument somewhat. However, triexporter has been used by others. Well, I make my own models, and export models from the client. I still don't use TriExporter though. Also, TriExporter is allowed by CCP, so you still don't have a case. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.17 16:19:00 - [177] Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 17/08/2006 16:20:12 Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 17/08/2006 16:18:48 Hence the need for an offical supported list then eh Avon? Edit: I cannot spell. Edit2: I've used TriExporter in the past too. What I do the rest of the time.
DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.08.17 16:27:00 - [178] Originally by: K Shara Edited by: K Shara on 17/08/2006 15:56:03 arrgggg you dont get it do you. And over here in the UK its not illegal to smoke on public transport just not allowed by the T&C's of using the transport :) My examples have flaws yes, but take them in the spirit they are meant basically what I was saying is that if your breach the conditions under which they (ccp) offer you a service and whch you agreed to abide. By registering and accepting the EULA. They can terminate your account and refuse to offer the service to you. At most all they would need to do is refund the balence of any outstanding subscription. Yeah, I do get it, that is why lawyers get paid oodles amounts of mulla sitting around contemplating ways of explaining things that should never have to be explained in the first place :) Does it amount to anything? Generally, no it doesn't. All it does is act as a preventative measure to reduce the risk of getting sued by oodles and oodles of more mulla, but even that isn't a guarantee. Hak, I wasn't supporting goonies in anyway shape or form, I just got tired of the same old cry "ITS AGAINST THE EULA #@#@@# BAN THAM ALL AND EAT THEIR YOUNG" threads without even reading what it was about. But didn't you guys eat the goonies and run them off anyhow? So what is the big deal? Back to K - But I didn't know about the smoking thing being allowed. I thought it was banned everywhere. On the otherhand, you did pick up the spirit or in context part. Progress I say. Honestly, I think the EULA was just quickly put together or is facing the results of a language conversion. Microsoft didn't even get half of what CCP has for imposing restrictions and it (MS EULA) has been generally tossed (New York City) on the avoidance of liability stipulations. The rest of it, like I said, talk ot your credit card company for chargebacks. I also think CCP might want to consider opening up the client for modifications. First, look at other software titles that have had their games expand - CounterStrike, Quakes, Total Annihilation, etc. It also promotes a stronger community, and as we all know CCP is short staffed so it couldn't hurt to have additional resources floating around. It is all for a better game.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.17 17:10:00 - [179] Originally by: DropZone 187 I also think CCP might want to consider opening up the client for modifications. First, look at other software titles that have had their games expand - CounterStrike, Quakes, Total Annihilation, etc. It also promotes a stronger community, and as we all know CCP is short staffed so it couldn't hurt to have additional resources floating around. It is all for a better game. That boat just won't float on a single server sea. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.17 17:20:00 - [180] Originally by: Avon Originally by: DropZone 187 I also think CCP might want to consider opening up the client for modifications. First, look at other software titles that have had their games expand - CounterStrike, Quakes, Total Annihilation, etc. It also promotes a stronger community, and as we all know CCP is short staffed so it couldn't hurt to have additional resources floating around. It is all for a better game. That boat just won't float on a single server sea. I feel a shanty coming on. What I do the rest of the time.

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