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Roule Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.20 06:16:00 - [151] No i dont get your point. F-E/-5-/Kaos -vs- Iron/G/Razor in system D7-ZAC(POS War) Before Server Upgrades D2/Mihi/Razor -vs- Tau Ceti(POS war) With Shiny New Servers Both lrg amounts of people in systems at all times for several weeks(i dont even care about noobs beating D2 up in syndicate, its irrelevant to this thread and this argument) Your telling me that i dont know what these guys are going through and ive never fought in a POS war, look back to the forums in march and tell me that everybody involved in that conflict back then werent involved in a POS war, one that had huge nightly losses.... Dreadnaughts may not have been thrown away as carelessly as what D2 and tau ceti are doing with theres today, but i know quite a number of people that got 1 shot wondered by these so called battlestar POSs that aint as bad as todays, back in the old D7-ZAC conflict including myself, ive gone to warp to a pos and then unlagged in Gods Factory, I remember going to bed really early on nights to make sure i am up at 4am my time to be involved in the alliance assults, theres was alot of bordom, lots of money lost, lots of hating of game mechanics, of POSs, of each others alliances, so dont proceed to tell me or anybody that was there anything about these conflicts B'coz reguardless of what you think those that are here now in D7-ZAC are going through exactly what the alliances involved were going through in D7-ZAC 5 months ago..... You aint there now and you werent there 5 months ago. P.S. nothing personal just i took a 2month eve break after F-E fell apart due to burn out from that conflict due to it making me hate eve so much and i know many more mates that did too, its tiring, its exhausting but at times it is really exhilirating, but you still log on till the jobs done coz nobody that pvp's in this game likes loseing My Videos
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.20 06:40:00 - [152] Originally by: Roule No i dont get your point. F-E/-5-/Kaos -vs- Iron/G/Razor in system D7-ZAC(POS War) Before Server Upgrades D2/Mihi/Razor -vs- Tau Ceti(POS war) With Shiny New Servers Both lrg amounts of people in systems at all times for several weeks(i dont even care about noobs beating D2 up in syndicate, its irrelevant to this thread and this argument) Your telling me that i dont know what these guys are going through and ive never fought in a POS war. I am straight up telling you that you have not been involved in a POS war. Atuk vs G or what ever you want to call it was nothing close to a POS war. It was a war, there were POS's in the system, but that doesn't make it a POS war. And its nothing compared to what is happening as of right now in D7. I don't know how to make that anymore clear.
Kusotarre Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.20 07:10:00 - [153] Lorth is correct. I was in the fights againsts FE/5/KAOS, and then later against ERA/OSS, and there are huge differences between them and the Goonswarm and TCF fights. Roule, you haven't been in these fights. I've been in both. Lorth has been in both. Many people here have. You have not. It's as simple as this: You are wrong.
Valrea Minmatar Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.20 08:29:00 - [154] Hi guys, There is one thing I don't understand from the comments of D2/MORSUS and co. 17/08 : North Coalition attacked POS in D7 with a local with more than 400 pilots and a very big lag (3 min to warp out and so...) You put 3 POS in reinforced and lost 1 dread and 1 carrier. 18/08 : - 13h05 (Eve time) North Coalition attacked again in D7 just after the downtime to kill one POS in reinforced. We manage to put some strontium in it just before the attack. There was very few lag : 5 sec to active module. North Coalition lost 3 dreads and put the POS in reinforced. (Where is the mistake ?) - 19h00 ; North Coalition attacked again the same POS who end reinforced with 250 pilots in local. Lag was acceptable (15 to 30 sec to active modules) Dreads fired POS. We attacked also. Coalition lost 4 others dreads, didn't destroy the POS, try to save the dreads with a warp out, engage their fleet in close range of the POS, lost a lot of BS and support... If you can't say that our strategy and tactics was good (cost to much to be say), you can admit that you did some big mistakes, and lag didn't do every thing. Nafri : Frederik didn't speak of victory, he only summed up what happen in D7. You're trying to demonstrate that is not a victory show that you took what happen for a defeat. Thanks for that :) Valrea Section XIII - TCF We fight, you'll die !
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.20 08:48:00 - [155] This thread has been created because of two things: first because it's not every day that 7 dread and a carrier are destroyed in 24h, and second because matters in Tribute had been kept relatively confidential for the player base, and I think a little update was needed for those who like to hear about what happen in Eve in general. In no way has this thread been started to be some chest-beating, self-serving propaganda. If we were the kind to like things like that, we'd have done one 4 days ago, when the coalition gathered something like 350 players, and got it's attack spoiled, largely because of insane lag, node crash... Those who complain about POS that doesn't lag...Should put themselves in our shoes for a moment: what other realist options have you left us beside POS defenses? POS warfare isn't our favorite fleet action, either, but well, we work with what we have... The first time D2 attacked one of our POS in H-W, their dreads were using long-range guns. That puzzled us at the beggining. When we tried to engage with loads of fighters, and when those fighters got shot down by a support fleet sitting just outside of POS range,we understood. Now we had changed the setup of our poses, and we came up with a different strategy that works against yours. It's now up to the coalition to work out something to regain their edge... ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Axia Firehead Amarr Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.20 08:55:00 - [156] yes, there is lag, but, we manage to play even with the lag.when we warp with our BS on your dread, how can we shot at them and be abble to warp out after killing them, and you, you cannot?? maybe you should learn a bit more, or listen your FC orders. anyway, we are impressed by the war machine D2. it s impressive. keep this. we are learning a lot, and becoming stronger at each figth. little grunt
Cyleth Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.20 09:47:00 - [157] Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower Originally by: Fred0 Edited by: Fred0 on 20/08/2006 00:40:38 There was absolutely zero diplomatic issues. I know because i orchestrated and planned it all. You got kicked out in one day after loosing your allies. You're known as the lousiest defender of a region ever. You mustered two fleets over 3 days and then it was over. And over would include your macrominers convoing us to switch boat. Oh and Turiya, look up Ernest on your own killboard before you try and have a go at him Riiight, had nothing to do with the fact that the system-holding corporation pulled their defensive POS out of S-EV just hours beforehand and that the alliance had already suffered heavy losses in the weeks of fighting down in Tribute and the war-dec from the MC. Add to that the fact that the executor corp kicked us and other key corporations from the alliance and you're looking at the real reason begind the fall of Tenal. Kaos was a terrible alliance, but you're painting them in worse colours than they deserved. Just to refresh your memory. -You tried to fight for S-E. You brought in ERA and OSS with you. You had ~100 that time. MM and RZR was on other side with ~50. You jumped in to S-E. After 1,5h fighting, you and your allies had to go back tails between your legs. -You tried to fight for 6oy. After you got spanked 100-0 there, a certain CEO convoed one of the RZR leaders asking what it would take to get out of Tenal in peace. -Multiple KAOS corp leaders tried to bail out, with any costs since they couldnt fight back anymore.(yes, I admit, this might be due to tribute events and MC declaring them. However, it's quite pathetic to sell out your allies). -- Nobody stays behind
Turiya Flesharrower Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.20 10:07:00 - [158] Originally by: Cyleth Just to refresh your memory. -You tried to fight for S-E. You brought in ERA and OSS with you. You had ~100 that time. MM and RZR was on other side with ~50. You jumped in to S-E. After 1,5h fighting, you and your allies had to go back tails between your legs. -You tried to fight for 6oy. After you got spanked 100-0 there, a certain CEO convoed one of the RZR leaders asking what it would take to get out of Tenal in peace. -Multiple KAOS corp leaders tried to bail out, with any costs since they couldnt fight back anymore.(yes, I admit, this might be due to tribute events and MC declaring them. However, it's quite pathetic to sell out your allies). Christ, I try to walk away but somehow I keep getting pulled back into the flames... 1) ERA/OSS/Kaos won the initial battle in S-EV and held the field at the EOY gate. The only problem was that ERA/OSS was unwilling to commit Dreads to re-taking the system and at that point Kaos broke up internally so the fight was essentially over. 2) I have no idea what happened in 6OY, we had already been kicked out of the alliance by a disgruntled Executor corp for questioning the leadership's conduct. I have no doubt that the defense of 6OY was a paltry waste of ships at that point. I won't comment on that particular CEO's actions except to say that he believed it was best for his corporation to negotiate with Razor and the Executor's conduct had left him and his corporation with no great love for Kaos. 3) Beagle Corp was not among them. I myself lead a gang around to the rear entrances of 6OY during the initial Razor attack and destroyed a few choice targets, including 2 fueling haulers and a Recon ship holding blueprints. I then ended up intentionally suiciding the gang into an offline Razor POS in order to shoot down the fueling hauler that was approaching it, despite the fact that I knew the fleet there would cut us to pieces afterwards. We did everything we could for Kaos up until the time we were kicked out for questioning the leadership, after that we left with fond memories of what Kaos once was. Beagle Corp isn't a member of Kaos alliance or any other alliance precisely because we don't want to get involved with POS wars, poor leadership and lack of inter-corp cooperation ever again. I won't have the corporation dragged through the mud because of what Kaos did; we were only a 20-man corp back then and had a completely different focus and member base. -----
Soul Raven Caldari Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.20 10:52:00 - [159] Edited by: Soul Raven on 20/08/2006 10:54:03 Originally by: Zoltaris Originally by: Ivan Ho some of their tactics are very low and desperate actions,wich is disapointing. But hey this is a war and ppl will use all advantage, even game defects/shartfalls to win. Just means more pvp for me. see you at field of battle. Such accusations are vague and easy to make, personally i haven't heard or seen anything wrong with our tactics in D7, so, unless you can back-up your accusations and be more precise, please, just don't make them, this isn't good for anyone Perhaps the petitions for the 100+ shuttles at the pos's and the bm.s in the ships cargo holds might jog your memory???
Axia Firehead Amarr Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:04:00 - [160] 100 shuttle? you mean around 50 iteron III that we use for logistic, and the remplacement ships we have at POS maybe( any king, from frig to BS ), wich it s not against the eula, and that is need for the logistic. we never had 100 shuttle at a POS, lies will only desserve you, and you are the one that jetisson can in middle of figth. little grunt
NereSky Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:07:00 - [161] Gf http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shuttleexploiteb6.jpg
Edoo Occassus Republica Process of Elimination	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:10:00 - [162] lol @ northern coalition crying exploit!
KOTH Fluf Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:13:00 - [163] You had 100 shuttles at a POS, they were petitioned and a GM had to come in to remove them. As for the BMs in the ships, I have the killmails to prove it. Dont ever call us liers. Respect is earned and so far you have not earned one bit. Fluf CEO Shiva Morsus Mihi
Karylia Caldari Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:32:00 - [164] Edited by: Karylia on 20/08/2006 11:35:38 Originally by: KOTH Fluf You had 100 shuttles at a POS, they were petitioned and a GM had to come in to remove them. As for the BMs in the ships, I have the killmails to prove it. Dont ever call us liers. Respect is earned and so far you have not earned one bit. 1-3 bm with the name of the owner for he can get back his loots....My god exploit !!!! just LOL You come fight with a 350 mens fleet and you cry because you lag ??? LOL again
Stelteck Minmatar FRENCH NAVY Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:54:00 - [165] Edited by: Stelteck on 20/08/2006 11:56:11 As i saw the picture, these shuttles were in H-W9TY, not in D7. Nothing about of the D7 lag then. Netherwise, we cannot put spare ships in station because it is not a secure place (May fall or be camped) and we cannot online ship storage module in POS because it consume precious power grid used for guns. So wehave to let spare ships float in space. You are wrong if you think that there is a deliberate tactic to create lag conditions. As a TCF pilot, i never heard anyone in my alliance trying to use such tactics. But i heard many pilots complaining about the lag that slow all actions and disable ships. During action friday evening i was on the light squadron using minmatar full nano frigates. If i do not forget anything, i lost 3 rifters and at least one pod, each time because i do not manage to warp quickly enough because of the terrible lag. One of my rifter even had as final blow a DOOM TORPEDO !! One of the slowest missile ever, fired by a dreadnough, a ship with a 50 mm scan rTsolution !!!!! I hope tuesday patch will improve play condition and lessen the lag. It will help both sides to play and fight. But those who think that no or few lag will give their side a glorious and automatic victory .... are very naives. Stelteck, TCF ALLIANCE FNAVY corporation. Ps: sorry if my english is bad. Tau ceti FEDERATION F-NAVY "Brakes are for cowards"
Hidioshi Matsomoto Gallente The Dogs of War	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:02:00 - [166] Originally by: Stelteck Edited by: Stelteck on 20/08/2006 11:56:11 As i saw the picture, these shuttles were in H-W9TY, not in D7. Nothing about of the D7 lag then. Netherwise, we cannot put spare ships in station because it is not a secure place (May fall or be camped) and we cannot online ship storage module in POS because it consume precious power grid used for guns. So wehave to let spare ships float in space. You are wrong if you think that there is a deliberate tactic to create lag conditions. As a TCF pilot, i never heard anyone in my alliance trying to use such tactics. But i heard many pilots complaining about the lag that slow all actions and disable ships. During action friday evening i was on the light squadron using minmatar full nano frigates. If i do not forget anything, i lost 3 rifters and at least one pod, each time because i do not manage to warp quickly enough because of the terrible lag. One of my rifter even had as final blow a DOOM TORPEDO !! One of the slowest missile ever, fired by a dreadnough, a ship with a 50 mm scan rTsolution !!!!! I hope tuesday patch will improve play condition and lessen the lag. It will help both sides to play and fight. But those who think that no or few lag will give their side a glorious and automatic victory .... are very naives. Stelteck, TCF ALLIANCE FNAVY corporation. Ps: sorry if my english is bad. Although im a newb and learning still , so bear with me , i think the screenie of the shuttles was in direct responce to someone stating ' WE never had a 100 shuttles at a pos' so in my opinion doesnt that make it a lie? i dont know the relationship between D7 and the system the screenie was taking in but the statement quite clearly says ' WE NEVER' so doesnt that make the D7 defenders liars? and if thats the case doesnt that insinuate everything else they are saying is a lie? excuse ny poor english but im studying it and trying to improve.
Cyleth Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:14:00 - [167] Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower Christ, I try to walk away but somehow I keep getting pulled back into the flames... My post was hardly flaming, keep trying tho. Quote: 1) ERA/OSS/Kaos won the initial battle in S-EV and held the field at the EOY gate. The only problem was that ERA/OSS was unwilling to commit Dreads to re-taking the system and at that point Kaos broke up internally so the fight was essentially over. Yeah, you held the gate. If you count that as a win, good job then. If you count who held the system and who destroyed more, you lost. Quote: 2) I won't comment on that particular CEO's actions Yeah, you shouldn't since your corp wasn't any better. Quote: Beagle Corp isn't a member of Kaos alliance or any other alliance precisely because we don't want to get involved with POS wars, poor leadership and lack of inter-corp cooperation ever again. I won't have the corporation dragged through the mud because of what Kaos did; we were only a 20-man corp back then and had a completely different focus and member base. Is that the reason there was Beagle diplomats/whatever asking membership or any other possible way to stay in Tenal? -- Nobody stays behind
Don ZOLA Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:18:00 - [168] dunno why TCF keeps making such topics where they praise themselves and speak like they r winning and then asking for no flames ? truth is , according to all killboards u r getting owned in all (very big majority) fights which dont happen at poses. u keep ur poses alive and that part is truth but its due to game mechanics, its not such a great achievment and nothing to brag about, much smaller alliances would be able to do it aswell. also BM bombs stored in shuttles, frigs etc r ur well know weapon... and btw if u dont make topics when u lose ur whole capital fleet and congrats for ur enemy, and ur enemy doesnt post about victory , but u do it when u kill their dreads how can u expect no flames ? TWD summed it up nicely in noticing ur top killer is urs pos... TDG Recruitment
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:20:00 - [169] Originally by: Axia Firehead yes, there is lag, but, we manage to play even with the lag.when we warp with our BS on your dread, how can we shot at them and be abble to warp out after killing them, and you, you cannot?? I have a question. When you warp on dreads do you have some uber popping machine shooting at you? The one you cant hurt, you cant jam? I guess no. We have - its called POS. And IMO - soverignity POSes shouldnt have weapons at all. At least ppl would defend sov. with ships not some stupid automata.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:22:00 - [170] Originally by: NereSky Edited by: NereSky on 20/08/2006 11:14:47 Gf http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shuttleexploiteb6.jpg Quote; we never had 100 shuttle at a POS, lies will only desserve you, First, I think the 100 number has been grossly exagerated. The screen show 30-40 shuttles, there may have been 50 or so, but 100? Pfff Second, their presence in H-W made sense: When you bring spare ships in a contested system, you sort of tend to need a fast, disposable ship to go take another warship and come back with it. And they were sitting in space because we didn't have a POS ship hangar on the spot. So start thinking a little, or even asking us about it, before you press the petition button, please... ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
NereSky Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:26:00 - [171] Edited by: NereSky on 20/08/2006 12:26:41
BloodSn4ke	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:27:00 - [172] D¦ lost so it's because lag. xD Never d¦ can lost cause their opponent are better or cause they are don't so crazy like d¦'s gang and attack Pos with 908409408089490 players and then lost dread and say : "LAG it's not you who kill our dread, it's lag." I love you d¦. GO RA, GO TCF. Kill them all. Next time go fight pos with shuttle and copy bm xD and when tcf will kill 9 dread say : "LAG" again xD ;) It's real ? Attack a large POS with 30 bs XD. And lost 15 cause "LAG" xD Nothing else LAG LAG LAG LAG LAG. I give you 10 ISK for each dread lost ok ? :P (so 80isk XD) GG all both part, Mannerplayer of each side, i really deplease for you to play against flammer (or with) ;) Continue too product nice video :)
Turiya Flesharrower Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:28:00 - [173] Originally by: Cyleth My post was hardly flaming, keep trying tho. Subtle implications of Beagle Corp back-stabbing our allies? Sure, that's about as far from flaming as you can get Quote: Yeah, you held the gate. If you count that as a win, good job then. If you count who held the system and who destroyed more, you lost. Your original statement was "You tried to fight for S-E. You brought in ERA and OSS with you. You had ~100 that time. MM and RZR was on other side with ~50. You jumped in to S-E. After 1,5h fighting, you and your allies had to go back tails between your legs." I then replied that we detroyed/routed the Razor fleet and held the gate; Razor retreated, was I wrong? Quote: Yeah, you shouldn't since your corp wasn't any better. I don't remember speaking to any Razor diplomats about NAP'ing so we were in a completely different boat I'm afraid. Keep talking out of your arse though. We were one of the core Kaos member corporations and never turned on our allies. Quote: Is that the reason there was Beagle diplomats/whatever asking membership or any other possible way to stay in Tenal? This is just blatantly false; bring me the convo logs that show me talking to Razor about residency or any other D2-affiliated entity and I'll eat my shoe. The sequence of events goes like this: - Razor invades S-EV - Kaos falls back to 6OY - ADGA leaves and Beagle Corp is kicked abruptly by the Executor corporation for questioning the leadership - Beagle Corp negotiates blue standings with former allies ERA and OSS in order to leave Tenal without interference - Beagle Corp returns to Empire - Beagle Corp begins its campaign against all northern entities -----
Chee Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:30:00 - [174] Zola has a point. TCF diplomacy again not using their brains here. Your attitude only ensures the coalitions hostility to you for another few months to come. Yes you have an advantage in this wars because you are entrenched. And its frustating for the attackers to get you out. And ur flaunting around in their face that the game mechanics are working in your favour? have you lost your mind? your making hostilities here for the rest of your eve alliance existance. When the tide turns and the attackers coalition takes over d7, you will have manouvered yourself in an awkward position. I hope you got a backup plan :)
d00bld0ze Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:42:00 - [175] This topic turn in a flame party, It's really easy to troll and flame! Shame on alliances/corpo which are not able to prevent their members to flame/troll English learning / Rank 20 / SP: 69 of 5000
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:45:00 - [176] Yep shame. Next time think 10x before starting topic like that.
Cyleth Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.20 13:04:00 - [177] Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower [ Subtle implications of Beagle Corp back-stabbing our allies? Sure, that's about as far from flaming as you can get I said I refresh your memory. Stop twisting. Quote: Your original statement was "You tried to fight for S-E. You brought in ERA and OSS with you. You had ~100 that time. MM and RZR was on other side with ~50. You jumped in to S-E. After 1,5h fighting, you and your allies had to go back tails between your legs." I then replied that we detroyed/routed the Razor fleet and held the gate; Razor retreated, was I wrong? Yea you were. RZR/MM left from the gate, I said that, didn't I? After that there was some fights around the POSes. Apparently you weren't there and tbh, I'm not surpriced you weren't. And like I said, one entity stayed in that system after the skirmishes. It wasn't you. Quote: I don't remember speaking to any Razor diplomats about NAP'ing so we were in a completely different boat I'm afraid. Keep talking out of your arse though. We were one of the core Kaos member corporations and never turned on our allies. You didn't, that's correct. However, you are not all. Quote: This is just blatantly false; bring me the convo logs that show me talking to Razor about residency or any other D2-affiliated entity and I'll eat my shoe. I don't have them. Talk to other people. -- Nobody stays behind
Turiya Flesharrower Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.20 13:29:00 - [178] Edited by: Turiya Flesharrower on 20/08/2006 13:29:32 Originally by: Cyleth I said I refresh your memory. Stop twisting. You're only able to say that when you have all of the facts; accusing us of back-stabbing our allies basically proves that you don't. Quote: Yea you were. RZR/MM left from the gate, I said that, didn't I? After that there was some fights around the POSes. Apparently you weren't there and tbh, I'm not surpriced you weren't. And like I said, one entity stayed in that system after the skirmishes. It wasn't you. No, you didn't say that, your exact words were "You jumped in to S-E. After 1,5h fighting, you and your allies had to go back tails between your legs.", implying that we lost the initial battle at the gate and retreated. What actually happened was that we won the initial skirmish but didn't move in with Dreads to flush you guys out, and as I already stated; Razor held the system in the end and I have never disputed that. Quote: You didn't, that's correct. However, you are not all. In that case, don't make blanket statements in the future and imply that they apply to us. Quote: I don't have them. Talk to other people. So in other words, one or two Kaos corporations attempted to negotiate with Razor and you now feel perfectly justified in saying that they all did; well done. I don't think our enmity towards Razor can be questioned at this point or in the past. -----
dabster Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.20 13:44:00 - [179] 6 pages and Beagle are still going strong where they arent involved...what the hell ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids; Click.
Kuentai Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.20 14:00:00 - [180] Edited by: Kuentai on 20/08/2006 14:00:15 Actually we are involved, no way near as strongly as Tau, but we are around. Good stuff Tau, keep it up. - "The good man has few enemies, but the ruthless... None."

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