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[BLUE] official announcement.

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Moe Tard BLUE Bed and Breakfast The Big Blue	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:08:00 - [1] It's been a long and bumpy ride for the past 9 months for BLUE, and many died en route. It is with sadness but few regrets that we pull the plug on this project, as we honestly believe we couldn't have done much better on a first experiment of the sort (at least for the corps involved), and we want to extend our gratitude to all who supported and believed in it. Our doors have been closed to the public for the past 2 months, due to the constant siege the IPS-QB constellation has been under, and before we leave the area we will reopen the station to all neutral entities so that people who have gear in the Blue Pill get a chance to recover it. Be warned though, that sovereignty has or is about to drop as you read these lines, and that any travel in IPS-QB or to the Blue Pill is entirely at your own risk. As an alliance created to serve the project of an open, neutral and welcoming 0.0 industrial settlement on the borders of empire, BLUE no longer serves its purpose and will be shelved. BLUE standings will be reset, individual corporations in BLUE are free to manage their standings as they see fit from this moment on. Moe Tard - Interim Executor.
J'tarel Gallente ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:18:00 - [2] A sad day for eve I think, variety is the spice of life and the Big Blue project was an interesting one. Without game mechanics like constellation sovereignty, however, it was always an outside chance at survival. ISS choose the route os simply buying loyality from its neighbours, a valid route, but BB tried to creat an actual neutral space, but one which was sadly not respected. The truth is that eve is full of people who like to destroy the efforts of others and very few people willing to take on the momentus challenge of trying to create something new in the game. So politically I was no ally or friend of BB but I respect what you tried to do and I am sad to see it end. Perhaps the future will see you attempt again. Thanks JT
Arimai hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:32:00 - [3] I'm sad to see it end. It was the perfect way to show new players the advantages of 0.0, and it created a strong bond between players. Good luck with your alliance's future endeavours.
Kuang V I R I I Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:33:00 - [4] Sorry it didn't work out ... but big blue lasted longer then some expected ... good luck in your future plans CDC Forums
GodWin cadela Caldari Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:35:00 - [5] all good things have to come to an end. And good luck in the future, where ever your paths may lead ________________________________________
ParMizaN Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:41:00 - [6] Good luck to all the ex-BLUE members. sig edited for lack of pink really PINK -eris
Nahual Gallente Fate. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.08.20 11:46:00 - [7] Sad to see it happen You lasted longer than expected, so congrats to you on that. All the best ----------------------------------------------- FateCorp
Moghydin Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:27:00 - [8] Sad to see you go, guys. I think you should've recruited more PvP corps into your ranks (I mean PvP corps that will undock and fight). You had a strong industrial backbone, and with a good PvP wing you could've done great things. Looks like MC war was the mortal blow to Big Blue 0.0 ambitions. Gl to you all.
superscarface 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:39:00 - [9] It's a shame this finally happened. Perhaps the problem wasn't in trying to stay 100% neutral, but dabbling in capital ship construction. It took alot of guts doing what you did, mucho respecto
Chi Prime Millennium E.R.A	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:47:00 - [10] I'm very sorry to hear you are shutting down the project, but understand why. Good luck with your future ventures.

Zembla Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.08.20 12:54:00 - [11] Sad to see TBB shut it's doors :( Always liked you guys, probably always will. For what it's worth, you marched out with your heads up, and your backs straight, which goes a lot to say about your class. Salute TBB <Z> Signature Removed :o Spread the Z
Irrilian Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.20 13:14:00 - [12] IÆm sure Ill be joined by all members of Eve University in thanking NAGA and the other corporations that made up BLUE for the opportunity that being part of this project afforded us: An opportunity to do something positive for the game, to move beyond the constraints of what we could do individually to attempt to achieve something greater; An opportunity to open the eyes of a generation of new players to the risk and rewards of stepping out from under the wing of Empire space; An opportunity to rise to the challenge of fighting for a goal worth fighting for, a goal worthy of the efforts and energy of those whom came together to be part of BLUE.
Dethis Caldari Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.20 13:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Irrilian IÆm sure Ill be joined by all members of Eve University in thanking NAGA and the other corporations that made up BLUE for the opportunity that being part of this project afforded us: An opportunity to do something positive for the game, to move beyond the constraints of what we could do individually to attempt to achieve something greater; An opportunity to open the eyes of a generation of new players to the risk and rewards of stepping out from under the wing of Empire space; An opportunity to rise to the challenge of fighting for a goal worth fighting for, a goal worthy of the efforts and energy of those whom came together to be part of BLUE. -------- Kill em all and let god sort em out
Adoro Reunited	Posted - 2006.08.20 13:59:00 - [14] Sorry to hear this TBB, was a matter of time though. You did well.. -------- Zapatero: Quote: So what happens when they 'cure' the geek gene as well? Poof <scuse the pun> There goes EVE.
Zhennin Khatar Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.20 15:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Irrilian IÆm sure Ill be joined by all members of Eve University in thanking NAGA and the other corporations that made up BLUE for the opportunity that being part of this project afforded us Absolutely. I'm thankful that I was given a chance to see and benefit from 0.0 space, and join a neutral alliance so early in my career, and greatly sadened that new players today have lost that opportunity. The Big Blue was the greatest idea and the greatest endevour undertaken by players that I've ever seen in a MMO, and my deepest respect goes to those who organised and contributed to it. Tonight, Eve is a little poorer; space a little emptier and colder. ZK
Carzaro Merious Amarr N.A.G.A Corporation The Big Blue	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:09:00 - [16] A sip of brew for me... And two sips for my fallen homies. Peace BLUE. We're all gonna miss you.
LTD THOR Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:12:00 - [17] sorry to hear. you were the good guys! respect. My 1st video : =RED WARS-The Beginning= ;)
Kaaii Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:13:00 - [18] Proving once again that it is far EASIER to destroy than create... Cudos for taking the rougher road, respect for holding on to your goals. "They" didn't win, you did.. Kaaii LLC "..Id rather fall beside 10 lions, than stand with One thousand sheep.." Trading 101
The Cursed Stupid People Always Need Killing E N I G M A	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:16:00 - [19] Thanks MC you errr. Now ship prices are gonna go threw the roof. Oww forgot your sleeping with BOB and the GM's Beer em Good!!!!!! Signature removed. Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions - Petwraith
Vulor Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:35:00 - [20] It's a shame to see TBB are gone. You guys had a very unique thing going on in IPS couple last months. GL.

Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:35:00 - [21] Edited by: Traxio Nacho on 20/08/2006 17:38:01 Originally by: The Cursed Thanks MC you errr. Now ship prices are gonna go threw the roof. Oww forgot your sleeping with BOB and the GM's Dammit you figured out the plan On topic sad to see the end of TBB but you did a great job while you were around though and i'm sure it wont be the last Eve hears about you.
Huge Ox Rogue Arrow Galactic Empire	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:43:00 - [22] Edited by: Huge Ox on 20/08/2006 17:44:47 Sad to see BB finally close its doors I wish you all well for the future
Hectic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:53:00 - [23]
Irrilian Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:53:00 - [24] Originally by: The Cursed Thanks MC you errr. Now ship prices are gonna go threw the roof. Oww forgot your sleeping with BOB and the GM's Im not sure where this idea that IPS was integral to NAGAÆs T2 production emerged from as all of NAGAÆs T2 industrial operations take place in empire. Complex reaction products needed for T2 stuff are just bought via contracts on the open market. The large POS network BLUE maintained was to hold sovereignty, not some industrial backbone. Due to the extremely poor moons in IPS the only way for such to pay for itself was to import moon minerals and react them. The profits from such went mostly into fuel and paying a stipend to the people whom looked after individual towers. If you dont believe me, scan the moons for yourself. The highlight of IPS is one Vanadium moon, the rest are just gasses and cheap metals. There was no hidden agenda with the motivations of those involved in BLUE, it was conceived as project furthering NAGAÆs core ideal of empowering the small guy, be it ensuring that T2 stuff equipment isnt the preserve of the big alliances, or attempting to open up a small neutral area of 0.0 to everyone, introducing people to 0.0, somewhere to learn how to operate to minimise the risks while gaining its rewards. Feh, perhaps Eve deserves an evil NAGA.
Masta Killa BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:56:00 - [25] At least their members learned pvp the hard way in bwf while it lasted -------------------------------------- "It's like, we show up and UDIE."
Carzaro Merious N.A.G.A Corporation The Big Blue	Posted - 2006.08.20 18:15:00 - [26] Originally by: Irrilian Originally by: The Cursed Thanks MC you errr. Now ship prices are gonna go threw the roof. Oww forgot your sleeping with BOB and the GM's Im not sure where this idea that IPS was integral to NAGAÆs T2 production emerged from as all of NAGAÆs T2 industrial operations take place in empire. Complex reaction products needed for T2 stuff are just bought via contracts on the open market. The large POS network BLUE maintained was to hold sovereignty, not some industrial backbone. Due to the extremely poor moons in IPS the only way for such to pay for itself was to import moon minerals and react them. The profits from such went mostly into fuel and paying a stipend to the people whom looked after individual towers. If you dont believe me, scan the moons for yourself. The highlight of IPS is one Vanadium moon, the rest are just gasses and cheap metals. There was no hidden agenda with the motivations of those involved in BLUE, it was conceived as project furthering NAGAÆs core ideal of empowering the small guy, be it ensuring that T2 stuff equipment isnt the preserve of the big alliances, or attempting to open up a small neutral area of 0.0 to everyone, introducing people to 0.0, somewhere to learn how to operate to minimise the risks while gaining its rewards. Feh, perhaps Eve deserves an evil NAGA. Couldn't have summed it up better myself.
BLAIYNE Shadow Play	Posted - 2006.08.20 19:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Carzaro Merious A sip of brew for me... And two sips for my fallen homies. Peace BLUE. We're all gonna miss you. What he said. Fly safe people.
oodin Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2006.08.20 20:26:00 - [28] so has E-R claimed the outpost in bwf too?
Cadman Weyland Millennium E.R.A	Posted - 2006.08.20 20:29:00 - [29] Such a pity. Sorry to see a noble effort like yours go to waste. I hope the MC and their Customer (if there was one) are happy with the way its turned out in the end. Director of Bubbles and Noobs
Moghydin Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2006.08.20 22:07:00 - [30] I think they should've organized a PvP defence force, secured the system, and only then to place those Capital Ship yards. At least that may had forced the employer of MC to attack directly and not to hide behind mercenaries.

Irrilian Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.20 22:49:00 - [31] Originally by: Brundle Fish I understand that this was a test but really, you keep your valuables in a cardboard box gaurded by a crippled hamster and someone is going to take them. You don't need to test that. ThatÆs the same crippled hamster that successfully repulsed BOB on their Easter roadtrip. Another misconception that NAGA is loaded with isk: NAGA started with a tech2 co-op, people pooling their blueprints to provide one another with items. Such evolved into the Stepstone project where BPO holders could lodge their techII blueprints with NAGA whom handle all the production and sale, in return for a regular dividend of something like 90% of the profit. A partnership where those fortunate enough to get BPOs get a very nice regular income without the hastle and NAGA gets to advance their cause of providing cheap techII to the masses.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.08.20 22:52:00 - [32] Edited by: Nez Perces on 20/08/2006 22:54:58 IMHO, the Big Blue's big mistake was to go for a neutral's policy which always encourages pilots in the area, wether in Big Blue or not, to see the facilities provided as a free ride. Neutrals in 0.0, specially where conquerable stations are concerned, does not work. CFS proved that pretty conclusively back in the day. I still don't understand why an entity like EVE-Univerity would forego a fantastic recruitment opportunity like providing 0.0 access to new players, in order to satisfy the unworkable idealistic notion of free access to 0.0
hangovur Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.21 04:37:00 - [33] :-( sad to see. i have the utmost respect for the NAGA and EVE-uni guys who worked so hard to serve others. most people dont understand how selfless the big blue project was, but those who worked to build and maintain it always will. TBB was great during its short life. GL in your future endevours to all TBB corps. 0/
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.08.21 04:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 20/08/2006 22:54:58 IMHO, the Big Blue's big mistake was to go for a neutral's policy which always encourages pilots in the area, wether in Big Blue or not, to see the facilities provided as a free ride. Neutrals in 0.0, specially where conquerable stations are concerned, does not work. CFS proved that pretty conclusively back in the day. I still don't understand why an entity like EVE-Univerity would forego a fantastic recruitment opportunity like providing 0.0 access to new players, in order to satisfy the unworkable idealistic notion of free access to 0.0 goonfleet did alright until they decided to go invade elsewhere in terms of access to 0.0 and recruitment. Im sure NAGA and co will continue to operate heck there may be another move with kali to go forward time will tell - that region tho is now up for grabs can see a few alliances going in for it.
Romble Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.21 07:23:00 - [35] Yes, it's sad to see. We put a lot of effort into the project and a lot of people, neutrals, allies, new players, and corp members truly appreciated their time in IPS. It was a unique space in Eve. Yes, now E-R have sov of the system and now "the red pill" as they have named it. My MMORPG History: Ac->AO->DAOC->SWG->COH->WoW->Eve
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.21 07:47:00 - [36] The only thing MC really did was *** the aura of invincibility that the IPS constellation seemed to posses due to its abundance of POS defenses. TBB made the error of attempting to get into the super capital ship "market". It is common knowledge that there are one hell of a lot of people in this game who do not want to see twenty more corps like The Establishment running wild through their territory with nigh-unstoppable, fleet spawning monstrosities. If people wish to place blame for TBBÆs ultimate fall, they might want to look at the continued efforts of corps like SAS over the past couple months. Even with the number of people in this and previous posts who have pointed out the two months of near constant siege the constellation has been under after the MC left, there are still those who wish to lay the blame at our feet for the fall of Big Blue. By their own admission on more than one occasion, TBB has no one to blame but themselves for failing to put their foot down and hold their own space. Of key note in all of this is that they failed to create and fund a dedicated military force, such as what ISS has done with the ISS Navy, to drive off the riffraff and opportunists that plague any** 0.0 resident. Depending on the good will of the community goes only so far because, eventually, someone is going to come pounding on your door looking for a fight. It was a bold and ultimately doomed experiment. Maybe another consortium will try it again in the future with a bit more firepower backing the idea up. I have nothing but respect for EVE University and the role they played in TBB and wish all of the former TBB corps well in the future. - Latest MC Movie - Nation Building
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.21 08:28:00 - [37] It's a shame to see this endeavour fail. I speak from experience when I say I know how hard it is to build something in EVE. There's just so many who want to tear it apart. Best wishes guys, and may your next venture be more successful. (And hey, if you're looking for another alliance, maybe consider having a word with ISS :))
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.21 08:36:00 - [38] BLUE did the same mistakes CFS did back in the day. There are no neutrals in 0.0, only blues and not-blues..
Ashraaf Infinite Improbability Inc	Posted - 2006.08.21 09:12:00 - [39] Sad New today I wish you good luck Eve University, Naga and all other corps in TBB
Chai N'Dorr Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.21 09:32:00 - [40] Always a sad day when something more neutral to Neutrals kicks the bucket. _ Short Story: Planetside

Gwarnina Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.21 10:35:00 - [41] Originally by: Masta Killa At least their members learned pvp the hard way in bwf while it lasted That which does not kill you makes you stronger. Burn Eden made us stronger. SAS and E-R eventually killed us. We awoke in our empire cloning stations, but our skills and experiences stayed intact. Thank you all for doing your bit, regardless of which side of the gun you were on. It was fun while it lasted (though understandably less fun in the last two months). PS: Where is Chandoi when the world needs him? . Dedicated to helping newcomers to EVE - join ingame channel EVE UNIVERSITY and ask your question!
Sable Schroedinger Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.21 10:46:00 - [42] Originally by: Kunming BLUE did the same mistakes CFS did back in the day. There are no neutrals in 0.0, only blues and not-blues.. this is only the case because you believe it the case. You're in a very small box, tied down by thoughts of the past, freedom is but a lid away... -------------------------------------------- Nothing is as cruel as the righteousness of innocents
Ange1 Gallente The Establishment	Posted - 2006.08.21 10:50:00 - [43] The Establishment will always remember The Big Blue for what they did for us. It is regrettable that we may have indirectly began their demise when we got our Motherhsip, but such is life. The Establishment is at your service...
Amarria Lightwielder N.A.G.A Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:20:00 - [44] Well it was fun while it lasted, but all good things must come to an end, and so did IPS. At least for the time being :) Now it's back to empire and take all our efforts back into the corp again. Wish all blue corps the best of luck :) NAGA ShopÖ
Hermia HIVE	Posted - 2006.08.21 12:00:00 - [45] hopefully in the future NAGA can find another military and perfect nation security for a longer stint. Its unfortunate, but this game (as a political experiment) favors the formation of fasict states and xenophobic ideas. The tools for liberal nations dont exist, atleast not formally, but that is a problem.
Cadman Weyland Millennium E.R.A	Posted - 2006.08.21 13:58:00 - [46] Edited by: Cadman Weyland on 21/08/2006 13:58:44 Originally by: Seleene stuff Zz might kill me for saying this given his ties with U, but its awefully convinent that with Naga/Blues outposts and ship yards gone, one of the MCs prime competitors in Capitals Building goes bye bye. A shame to see their enterprise go under. Edited for mass typos Director of Bubbles and Noobs
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:05:00 - [47] Originally by: Cadman Weyland Edited by: Cadman Weyland on 21/08/2006 13:58:44 Originally by: Seleene stuff Zz might kill me for saying this given his ties with U, but its awefully convinent that with Naga/Blues outposts and ship yards gone, one of the MCs prime competitors in Capitals Building goes bye bye. A shame to see their enterprise go under. Edited for mass typos Tinfoil hat time again However most of the cap ship stuff goes back into the MC. But theres plenty of people out there that wouldn't want cap ship yards built.
Michuh Vortex. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:11:00 - [48] Originally by: Seleene It is common knowledge that there are one hell of a lot of people in this game who do not want to see twenty more corps like The Establishment running wild through their territory with nigh-unstoppable, fleet spawning monstrosities. That alone is reason enough to remove an alliance, at this stage of the game.. Perhaps in a year or so, when Motherships are beginning to replace the carriers in the large alliance capital front, perhaps then, there may be room enough for alliances such as Trust, and The Big Blue to start rolling motherships etc off the production lines.. Maelstrom Recruitment
Ange1 Gallente The Establishment	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:30:00 - [49] Originally by: Michuh That alone is reason enough to remove an alliance, at this stage of the game.. Perhaps in a year or so, when Motherships are beginning to replace the carriers in the large alliance capital front, perhaps then, there may be room enough for alliances such as Trust, and The Big Blue to start rolling motherships etc off the production lines.. I believe their problem with people like us having Motherships in our possession is the amount of power it gives us. Usually a small group like us can be chased away by a fleet that will typically outnumber/outgun us heavily. With the Nyx though, we can simply up the ante by jumping it in, and we do use the Nyx in a very unrestricted way. Will most likely be our undoing, but we see no reason to hide it because it might get blown up one day to a trap. The Establishment is at your service...
Ronan Teisdari Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:37:00 - [50] Originally by: Seleene If people wish to place blame for TBBÆs ultimate fall, they might want to look at the continued efforts of corps like SAS over the past couple months. Even with the number of people in this and previous posts who have pointed out the two months of near constant siege the constellation has been under after the MC left, there are still those who wish to lay the blame at our feet for the fall of Big Blue. By their own admission on more than one occasion, TBB has no one to blame but themselves for failing to put their foot down and hold their own space. Of key note in all of this is that they failed to create and fund a dedicated military force, such as what ISS has done with the ISS Navy, to drive off the riffraff and opportunists that plague any 0.0 resident. Depending on the good will of the community goes only so far because, eventually, someone is going to come pounding on your door looking for a fight. As Seleene said, it wasn't MC who killed BLUE. After MC left, BLUE went through some reorganization. We were in the process of rebuilding the POS networking for defenses. We were in the process of establishing a ship replacement fund for the PvP'rs who wanted to protect IPS. We were rebuilding a stronger BLUE. SAS came in... and ganked away with all T2 ships and equipment. Most people in IPS at this time were E-UNI, who used T1 frigs / cruisers and equipment, with the few T2 fitted ships. SAS enlisted help from F-E, A HOY, PURE, TEAM1, and finally Euphoria Unleashed. There were 20+ dreads and carriers in system taking out POS's on some days. As of now, E-R controls both stations IPS and the surrounding areas. All though there is only about 15 people in system now at any given time, as E-R has engaged else where. It wasn't MC, but SAS and friend who got the final kill BLUE. BLUE has run a great course, and will be missed. Best of luck to all current and past members of BLUE in the future.

Nyssa Dakalsai Cosmic Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:42:00 - [51] Best of luck to the remnants of Blue, maybe one day your dream will become a reality
Michuh Vortex. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:05:00 - [52] Originally by: Ange1 ..... With the Nyx though, we can simply up the ante by jumping it in, and we do use the Nyx in a very unrestricted way. Will most likely be our undoing, but we see no reason to hide it because it might get blown up one day to a trap. I admire your corps courage, for the simple reason.. that the ship isnt sitting there in a POS bubble.. Its being used.. Sure wish I could get the final blow on it tho Maelstrom Recruitment
Poundrock Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:40:00 - [53] Forever Blue... :( Was a great time. Thanks to everyone involved, including all the baddies that turned a lot of us miners into harderned fighters, hehe. :) Good luck NAGA and friends, maybe someday this can happen again ...
Rick Thwaites DarkVengeance Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:50:00 - [54] From the ex-CEO of NEMP. Sorry to see you guys go. I had a lot of fun, and BLUE taught me almost everything I know. -- Max sig dimensions are 400W x 120H - Cathath ([email protected]) Not the first time I have been told I am too big...
Marko Debreault 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:54:00 - [55] It was a nice experiment. Many groups and corps have been interested in capturing space. Most of them never get a chance. You need the right combination of pvp ability and circumstance in order to capture and hold those player conquerable stations. The Big Blue certainly didn't have the military to capture some already existing conquerable station, so they just built their own. They lasted a lot longer than I would have expected if I bothered to think about it at the beginning. They didn't have the military to conquer; they don't have the military to hold. This is a good case study for industrialists who are contemplating different ways of entering 0.0. Good luck in the future, BB.
Marcus Thrawn Caldari Fatalix Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.21 18:44:00 - [56] On behalf of Fatalix Inc, I would like to thank the other ex-corporations in TBB for your help and support during the IPS experiment. Good luck to all other ex-TBB corporations. -----
Gunship Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.21 18:59:00 - [57] better to try and fail, than newer try at all So you want to join us?
John Blackthorn Foundation Free Trade Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.21 19:29:00 - [58] I really liked the ideas of big blue and there efforts to allow people from empire to explore 0.0 space. It gave them the taste of what it was like and thus would want to move futher out into 0.0 were all people would have more targets and more fun... Instead groups decided to destroy big blue and what they stood for. Sad really... Thanks for your support and your efforts Big Blue! You will be missed. -John Blackthorn
Great Guardian Minmatar Supremacy	Posted - 2006.08.21 20:01:00 - [59] Sad moment for EVE indeed. Shame on those who started it (MC and their ôsecretö BoB employers) and those who finished that dirty job. GG " I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Hah! Attack ships on fire, off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams, glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments.... will
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.08.21 20:35:00 - [60] Edited by: Kuolematon on 21/08/2006 20:44:44 Yesh! Another worthless carebear project bites the dust. Now BoB needs to kill ISS and we will have cleared 0.0 from carebears that dosen't understand that EVE is all about killing and destroying - not creating. Goons are already dead, Blue now following .. ISS is left. Go BoB, save PvP EVE! STOP CAREBEARS! Unnerf Amarr! "Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must."

Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.21 22:06:00 - [61] Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 20/08/2006 22:54:58 IMHO, the Big Blue's big mistake was to go for a neutral's policy which always encourages pilots in the area, wether in Big Blue or not, to see the facilities provided as a free ride. Neutrals in 0.0, specially where conquerable stations are concerned, does not work. CFS proved that pretty conclusively back in the day CFS failed for the same reasons most alliance did - internal strife and loss of PvP capacity. Not really because of their freespace ideals. ISS proves neutrality can work. TBB's "rules" system of freespace prevented myself from one from taking advantage of the offer (because our rules of engagement at the time, that if locked and aggressed you fire back...) and were perhaps not the best idea, but it's hardly intrinsically unworkable.
JP Moregain Gallente Moregain Holdings	Posted - 2006.08.21 22:51:00 - [62] Definitely a big loss, though hopefully not permanent, even if the idea comes back in a different and better form. It was a nice experiment to see a different strategy tried other than just 'blow up everyone else real good!'. Most of the posts about why it ended are true to some extent (from someone whose 'other main' participated...) 1) Failure to recognize that their 'good guy' rep. would not protect them from constant harassment by various corps/alliances either directly or through the merc. channel. 2) Lack of well funded/well organized military capabilities until too late(though parts of it were quite capable). 3) A diffused decision making process that made quick adaptation difficult. No, MC did not 'kill' the BB. They did put it into a weak enough position so that SAS & Euphoria could finish the job. Should they be criticized for that? Not really. On the other hand I probably wouldn't give them a high five either... Just live and learn. Regards, JP "In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..."
Pepster Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.21 22:53:00 - [63] I'm very sad to see TBB go, you guys were the good guys in my opinion. You offered 0.0 access to new players and showed them the ropes on how to get the most out of it. A very noble cause. Its a shame really, this game favors the strong and amoral(sp?). Morality doesn't really have a place in EVE unfortunately. MC didn't destroy TBB, but it opened the door for others to do so. Those entities saw an easy target and took advantage of it so gg to you guys I guess . Its a simplied explanation but its true. NAGA and EVE-U obviously have smart people running it so I'm sure some very valueable lessons were learned for the future. Good luck guys, you'll be sorely missed and I hope you guys will make another go at it in the future.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.08.21 23:30:00 - [64] Edited by: Nez Perces on 21/08/2006 23:33:23 Originally by: Maya Rkell CFS failed for the same reasons most alliance did - internal strife and loss of PvP capacity. Not really because of their freespace ideals. ISS proves neutrality can work. TBB's "rules" system of freespace prevented myself from one from taking advantage of the offer (because our rules of engagement at the time, that if locked and aggressed you fire back...) and were perhaps not the best idea, but it's hardly intrinsically unworkable. ISS don't claim territory, at least not in the conventional manner, they are not really a sovereign entity as their outposts are owned by shareholders including themeselves. The minute a sovereign entity claims a piece of 0.0 and informs the mapmaker, that entity paints a big bulls eye on themselves. If you have a neutrals policy that bulls eye becomes a flashing, fluorescent, glow-in-the-dark one. It becomes but a question of time before your sovereign space becomes assaulted by another entity. The assailants may be looking for nice juicy carebear targets or they may be looking to remove your sovereignty, specially if your space contains shipyards and outposts in it like Big Blue had. The sheer number of entities who's mind it must have crossed to take on Big Blue just to get some free outposts must be substantial.. I know it ocurred to me. When the assailant turns up funny things start to happen... all the neutrals that were using your space to make isk or just floating around aimlessly, scatter like roaches. The pvp force you have in place, to protect your sovereignty now has to fight. (It seems big blue didnt even bother with a proper pvp defence force) When your pvpers start to loose ships to the incoming enemy they start to ask themselves some important questions : Why am I fighting? Why don't all these neutrals fight too, we would have a much bigger gang? Even if we win, what is the point? So that neutrals can continue to make money on the back of our hard work? When pilots who fight ask these questions, it is already game over. Claiming 0.0 space containing conquerable stations with the aim of allowing neutral access is dare I say it a ridiculous concept. When an individual pilots start losing ships so that others can make profit on the back of their losses, idealistic notions get old pretty fast. Fighting isn't about some quest for the greater good, when it comes down to it fighting is about fighting for your brother in arms 'in the trenches' side by side with you. Not about fighting for the guy sitting in a safespot waiting for the storm to blow over. Fighting together breeds comaraderie something those neutrals will never share.
Manas Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.22 00:53:00 - [65] While it might seem that Machiavellian corporations are unstoppable, donÆt underestimate the benefits of having corporations with altruistic motivations. They have strengths too. The Big Blue lasted longer than the average alliance, and all of its component corporations are still going strong. Part of it is that corporations with less self interested goals tend to stick it out more, while the cutthroat ones tend to shatter with the clash of 1337 egos. Still, looking at the map, there is a lot of sameness among the territorial empires. And thatÆs a shame. Diversity is always more interesting. Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Halafian Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.22 01:14:00 - [66] Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 21/08/2006 23:37:24 Originally by: Maya Rkell CFS failed for the same reasons most alliance did - internal strife and loss of PvP capacity. Not really because of their freespace ideals. ISS proves neutrality can work. TBB's "rules" system of freespace prevented myself from one from taking advantage of the offer (because our rules of engagement at the time, that if locked and aggressed you fire back...) and were perhaps not the best idea, but it's hardly intrinsically unworkable. ISS don't claim territory, at least not in the conventional manner, they are not really a sovereign entity as their outposts are owned by shareholders including themeselves. The minute a sovereign entity claims a piece of 0.0 and informs the mapmaker, that entity paints a big bulls eye on themselves. If you have a neutrals policy that bulls eye becomes a flashing, fluorescent, glow-in-the-dark one. It becomes but a question of time before your sovereign space becomes assaulted by another entity. The assailants may be looking for nice juicy carebear targets or they may be looking to remove your sovereignty, specially if your space contains shipyards and outposts in it like Big Blue had. The sheer number of entities who's mind it must have crossed to take on Big Blue just to get some free outposts must be substantial.. I know it ocurred to me. When the assailant turns up funny things start to happen... all the neutrals that were using your space to make isk or just floating around aimlessly, scatter like roaches. The pvp force you have in place, to protect your sovereignty now has to fight. (It seems big blue didnt even bother with a proper pvp defence force) When your pvpers start to loose ships to the incoming enemy they start to ask themselves some important questions : Why am I fighting? Why don't all these neutrals fight too, we would have a much bigger gang? Even if we win, what is the point? So that neutrals can continue to make money on the back of our hard work? When pilots who fight ask these questions, it is already game over. Claiming 0.0 space containing conquerable stations with the aim of allowing neutral access is dare I say it a ridiculous concept. When individual pilots start losing ships so that others can make profit on the back of their losses, idealistic notions get old pretty fast. Fighting isn't about some quest for the greater good, when it comes down to it fighting is about fighting for your brother in arms 'in the trenches' side by side with you. Not about fighting for the guy sitting in a safespot waiting for the storm to blow over. Fighting together breeds comaraderie something those neutrals will never share. I'm not sure what this comment was intended to address. It might be relevant to some pre-conceived notion of "realpolitik" or some other conception of how the poster imagines things work. As an analysis of the events involving The Big Blue, however, it completely misses the mark in any number of ways.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.08.22 01:20:00 - [67] Edited by: Nez Perces on 22/08/2006 01:22:20 Originally by: Halafian I'm not sure what this comment was intended to address. It might be relevant to some pre-conceived notion of "realpolitik" or some other conception of how the poster imagines things work. As an analysis of the events involving The Big Blue, however, it completely misses the mark in any number of ways. It was more intended as a response to maya's statement that neutrals in conquerable 0.0 space is a workable concept, which in my view it isn't. How it relates to Big Blue is that creating access for neutrals in conquerable space was doomed to failure. I don't have to imagine how things work in 0.0 conquerable space where neutrals are allowed access. I used to live in CFS claimed space, it made me sick.
Zulak	Posted - 2006.08.22 02:38:00 - [68] Once again it proves soverignty doesn't mean much in EVE. In fact it is probably better just roaming around like Burn Eden and blow stuff up. It just seems in general that it is a lot easier to attack than to defense a piece of space. What comes around goes around, one day destruction will also come around to those that laid waste to TBB space. No alliance will last forever. To say big blue falls because of its policy is like saying every past alliance has a bad policy. I think there is a lot more invovled than just that. At the end of day, the only meansurement is how long an alliance lasted. In that regards, I still think TBB is successful having lasted almost an entire year with only one true pvp corp which is the LIH. I think that MC would agree that TBB being a neutral entity it is puts up a harder fight than most of the those so-called pvp alliance/corps. While it lasted, I think it is being the most fun, interesting time watching TBB than 80% of the alliances out there who are doing nothing different than those before them...
Moe Tard BLUE Bed and Breakfast The Big Blue	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:13:00 - [69] The whole BLUE experiment was no more or less than what it reads on the label: an experiment. No one was candid about the viability of the project, and how it depended largely on public perception: whether it was vulnerable, whether it was smart to support or attack, etc. Some mesure their success by how many people they "pwn" or contribute to make slightly more miserable than themselves. Some mesure their success by having more: points, ISK, ships, cookies, whatever... than the neighbors. Some care only for their clique, of for some number on a ranking system, and don't give a n00b's arse about what they have to do to achieve their goals as long as they "win". Some pride themselves in being fearsome and fearless fighters, hardened in blood and hard fought battles. Well, we happen to look at things differently, we mesure our success by how many people benefit from our work, and we care more for the journey than for the destination. News flash for the macho poseurs out there: you shoot pixels and your "war in the trenches" is armchair quarterbacking. You can't even pretend to die in combat because you lack the guts to fly without a safe madical clone diaper to save your skillpoints (which you didn't put any effort in hoarding but watching months pass). BLUE carebears took more chances on a daily basis than most PvP'ers in a year. They exposed themselves to loss by building something, and when it happens in 0.0, in player built stations, especially open to the public, nothing lasts that is not looked after day after day, and there is no "strategic withdrawing" (running when not in ganking position). BLUE played both defensive and open on a small territory, when the obvious and easy way is to go offensive, NBSI, region-wide. Every day spent sharing 0.0 territory with people willing to show some respect to others was a worthy victory over the NPC-brained fighters who shoot based on a binary switch. BLUE achievement was to never fall below their own standards, and if that was their demise, at least they didn't turn into the sort of lynch mob who can't tell the difference between making a stand for something and following the flock. Were we fools ? Maybe. At least we dared while others repeat the same safe moves that are known to work. And our NAPs where not just bidding time until we could kill our friends of the day. We will be back, in some other shape or form people will applaud, loathe, or just fail to understand the point of, no doubt. I wish the best to all those who helped a small patch of 0.0 feel different for a couple months, that's more than most players can say about themselves.
Dearnen Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.22 09:44:00 - [70] Big Blue may be gone, but the Dream lives. The last few months have been like a refiner's fire. The steel is made stronger by it. The members of Big Blue that fought tooth and nail have learned valuable lessons. A sizable number of noobs have become hardened veterans. One of the most important lessons we have learned as a whole is that 0.0 cannot be passively defended. The fight must be taken to the enemy. His house must be burned down. His horses shot. His fields turned over. In time, an area of 0.0 will once again be opened to neutral and new player activity. It will survive only if the guardians are willing to ruthlessly crush those that oppose it. I suppose you could call it Militant Neutrality. Long Live the Dream!! -Dearnen Liberty Forever!

Romble Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.22 16:59:00 - [71] Originally by: Zulak Once again it proves soverignty doesn't mean much in EVE. In fact it is probably better just roaming around like Burn Eden and blow stuff up. It just seems in general that it is a lot easier to attack than to defense a piece of space. What comes around goes around, one day destruction will also come around to those that laid waste to TBB space. No alliance will last forever. To say big blue falls because of its policy is like saying every past alliance has a bad policy. I think there is a lot more invovled than just that. At the end of day, the only meansurement is how long an alliance lasted. In that regards, I still think TBB is successful having lasted almost an entire year with only one true pvp corp which is the LIH. I think that MC would agree that TBB being a neutral entity it is puts up a harder fight than most of the those so-called pvp alliance/corps. While it lasted, I think it is being the most fun, interesting time watching TBB than 80% of the alliances out there who are doing nothing different than those before them... Direct and to the point, well said and I agree completely. My MMORPG History: Ac->AO->DAOC->SWG->COH->WoW->Eve
Mordenkainan Caldari Lone Gunmen	Posted - 2006.08.22 19:05:00 - [72] Edited by: Mordenkainan on 22/08/2006 19:06:16 Originally by: Moe Tard The whole BLUE experiment was no more or less than what it reads on the label: an experiment. No one was candid about the viability of the project, and how it depended largely on public perception: whether it was vulnerable, whether it was smart to support or attack, etc. Some mesure their success by how many people they "pwn" or contribute to make slightly more miserable than themselves. Some mesure their success by having more: points, ISK, ships, cookies, whatever... than the neighbors. Some care only for their clique, of for some number on a ranking system, and don't give a n00b's arse about what they have to do to achieve their goals as long as they "win". Some pride themselves in being fearsome and fearless fighters, hardened in blood and hard fought battles. Well, we happen to look at things differently, we mesure our success by how many people benefit from our work, and we care more for the journey than for the destination. News flash for the macho poseurs out there: you shoot pixels and your "war in the trenches" is armchair quarterbacking. You can't even pretend to die in combat because you lack the guts to fly without a safe madical clone diaper to save your skillpoints (which you didn't put any effort in hoarding but watching months pass). BLUE carebears took more chances on a daily basis than most PvP'ers in a year. They exposed themselves to loss by building something, and when it happens in 0.0, in player built stations, especially open to the public, nothing lasts that is not looked after day after day, and there is no "strategic withdrawing" (running when not in ganking position). BLUE played both defensive and open on a small territory, when the obvious and easy way is to go offensive, NBSI, region-wide. Every day spent sharing 0.0 territory with people willing to show some respect to others was a worthy victory over the NPC-brained fighters who shoot based on a binary switch. BLUE achievement was to never fall below their own standards, and if that was their demise, at least they didn't turn into the sort of lynch mob who can't tell the difference between making a stand for something and following the flock. Were we fools ? Maybe. At least we dared while others repeat the same safe moves that are known to work. And our NAPs where not just bidding time until we could kill our friends of the day. We will be back, in some other shape or form people will applaud, loathe, or just fail to understand the point of, no doubt. I wish the best to all those who helped a small patch of 0.0 feel different for a couple months, that's more than most players can say about themselves. The best reason to be on EVE is in this post - best post in a longtime, several of the posteuring fools who have posted here might want to reflect on this - if only for the second to dismiss it and prove your total lack of worth to EVE.
Major Dim Caldari eXin Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.22 20:14:00 - [73] I would like to thank TBB for all the experiance and the good times i had with them. I remember all of u guys and u are awesome.
J909 KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:19:00 - [74] I dont know jack about the politics and i care even less, im just a grunt. Very sad to see it all go tho, it was a bold endeavour that deserves a /salute. J9 ----------------------------------------------- Cash from Chaos
Nyssa Dakalsai Cosmic Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.08.23 14:08:00 - [75] Originally by: Moe Tard Bitter Ex TBB I wouldnt let your bitterness overshadow tha fact that you still garner a lot of respect from your foes as well as neutrals.
Moe Tard BLUE Bed and Breakfast The Big Blue	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:30:00 - [76] Edited by: Moe Tard on 23/08/2006 19:34:46 Originally by: Nyssa Dakalsai I wouldnt let your bitterness overshadow tha fact that you still garner a lot of respect from your foes as well as neutrals. There is no bitterness about the conclusion of this project: it ran its course and met its end, that's all there is to it. I merely reacted to cheap rethorics trying to instrument this event to promote their own biases and prejudices, offering those as the "obvious" explanation for BLUE's eventual demise, when in fact most of those who posted in this fashion have precious little clue about the facts, vision, inner workings and history of BLUE. We never opposed unrestricted PvP, neither in empire (within game mechanics boundaries) nor in 0.0, and we fully support the competitive nature of EVE: in fact, the freedom of choice that comes with freeform competition is exactly what made this whole experiment worth the effort. The belief everything in EVE (or at large) boils down to "crush or be crushed" is an individual one, and I'm not disputing the right to subscribe to - or promote - this point of view. Yet, believing something doesn't make it an absolute truth, and in this case, is a good way to fail to understand what really happened. The terms of the BLUE project were simple: build something for the benefit of the community, and see if the general recognition of its usefulness would outweight the urge and insecurities of those who can't help but stomp on sandcastles (possibly because they wouldn't have the dedication to build and risk so much themselves). It was a non-zero-sum game proposition, and the bet was that people would recognize a win-win proposition, but we knew we were playing against the odds. The 6 months during which it increasingly gained momentum were actually more than we expected ourselves at start, and we were facing the consequences of some design overlooks at the time of MC's invasion that prevented a better management of the crisis. The BLUE experiment was not terminated by superior shooty-shooty power, but because of BLUE's failure to reach and maintain a peculiar position relative to the shooty-shooty aspects of competition in EVE. Many people recognize that competition in EVE is not limited to shooting stuff, or that cooperation plays a huge part. From this perspective, stating that everything that isn't "kill or be killed" is doomed to fail sounds like a guy living in a hut in Florida stating nobody could live in Canada because they would freeze to death. Not everybody wants to live in a hut is what they fail to realize. [edited for spelling]
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:41:00 - [77] Originally by: Moe Tard "kill or be killed" .. actually thats not a bad way to describe life in the 0.0 environment. It may not be to everybody's taste, but that is the reality out there. There will always be some entity looking to take from you what is yours, whatever your good intentions. Thats what makes EVE so thrilling. It is darwin in motion, survival of the fittest. I fail to see how anybody can think it is any other way, 0.0 is by its very nature a place where only the strongest entities will thrive.
Moe Tard BLUE Bed and Breakfast The Big Blue	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:58:00 - [78] Originally by: Nez Perces There will always be some entity looking to take from you what is yours, whatever your good intentions. Thats what makes EVE so thrilling. It is darwin in motion, survival of the fittest. The survivance of genetic "flaws" and biodiversity in general stands in stark contrast with your superfical understanding of the dynamics at work in genetic evolution. Try another metaphor to support your case, please. Quote: I fail to see [...] I can see that.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.08.23 21:29:00 - [79] Originally by: Moe Tard The survivance of genetic "flaws" and biodiversity in general stands in stark contrast with your superfical understanding of the dynamics at work in genetic evolution. Try another metaphor to support your case, please. sigh... I see you are trying your damndest to live up to your name. Darwin's theory of evolution is based on the fairly simple concept of 'natural selection', okay.. and I was simply trying to illustrate that the 0.0 environment promotes this tpe of mechanism. I mentioned nothing of RL genetic evolution, which through advances in science has been revealed itself to be a much more complex problem (irreducibly complex systems etc.. etc..). Lets leave RL out of this.. Here is a question for you, What makes you think that in the 0.0 environment (in EVE), it is possible to survive without having exceptional pvp prowess? and if not that a very powerful ally.
Moe Tard BLUE Bed and Breakfast The Big Blue	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:35:00 - [80] Originally by: Nez Perces sigh... I see you are trying your damndest to live up to your name. Thank you. I'm glad to see my efforts don't go unnoticed. Quote: Darwin's theory of evolution is based on the fairly simple concept of 'natural selection', okay.. Except Darwin's 'natural selection' doesn't rely on 'survival of the fittest', but only on elimination of the totally unfit (to reproduce). 'Survival of the fittest' comes from a different author, and is the catchphrase of a philosophical trend partly inspired by the reading of Darwin's articles but not endorsed by him in their developments. It enventually led to a school of thinking known as Social Darwinism, who tries to co-opt the legitimacy of a testable scientific theory to support counterproductive practices (for a species) such as eugenism and (for a society) systematic removal of solidarity systems, based on misrepresentation of said scientific theory. Quote: the 0.0 environment promotes this tpe of mechanism. Agreed. Most of EVE does, arguably, promotes 'evolution' in its usual biology meaning of a non-perfecting principle allowing the continuation of any stream that proves "just good enough". Quote: Lets leave RL out of this.. ...provided no further self-serving rethorical hijacking of RL (pseudo)science is attempted, I see no problem with that. Quote: Here is a question for you, What makes you think that in the 0.0 environment (in EVE), it is possible to survive without having exceptional pvp prowess? and if not that a very powerful ally. Considering how many people have been spending most of their time in 0.0 for the past years, we must have a rather lax acception of 'exceptional PvP prowess', but I will assume we're talking territorial alliances here. Might of the firepower sort is a proven solution, and we went out to test whether one other option we had in mind was viable. As this thread attests, the answer is no, either by faulty design, lacking implementation, or both. That neither proves nor disproves the possibility of viable alternatives to NBSI for a 0.0 alliance, albeit it's a good indication a territory and infrastructure operated under a DSUR (Don't Shoot Unless Red) policy is way more easily challenged. But it's not like we ever denied it.

Sun Win Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.23 23:54:00 - [81] As a late-comer to BLUE (joined E-Uni after the MC war) I never got to see IPS in full glorious free access to 0.0 space mode. I did get to participate in the attempted reconstruction and eventual departure and while it's heart-breaking to see the Alliance end and IPS fall into the hands of enemies, I learned a lot and came to love Eve because of my brief time in TBB. A lot of you have pictures instead of [!] for portraits so you probably don't remember what it's like to have never been in 0.0. Not long after joining E-Uni, I was part of a tour of 0.0 lead by Romble, one of the instructors. Keep in mind that before joining E-Uni, I'd maybe done some level 1 missions and a little trading in Ours. The experience was AMAZING. I saw my first POS (haunted by empty ships left over from the MC war), visited the Pill (a station that PLAYERS had built!) and learned about the history of Eve U and the Big Blue. The whole thing wa mind bending. I felt like the game had just gotten about ten times bigger. I liked Eve before joining Eve-U but after my first taste of 0.0 I came to love it. I'm sure I'm not alone. The Big Blue is gone and E-Uni is back in Empire but the idea of a corner of 0.0 that's open to everyone is far from dead. For every person here saying that the whole thing was doomed to failure, I promise you that there is a person somewhere else talking about what could have been done differently and how it could have been made to work. I don't know when it's going to be tried again or who will lead it or if I'll even be involved in the attempt, but I am certain that one way or another neutral 0.0 access will be revived. Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Mark Weston Caldari Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.24 02:07:00 - [82] Edited by: Mark Weston on 24/08/2006 02:07:43 Originally by: Nez Perces There will always be some entity looking to take from you what is yours, whatever your good intentions. Thats what makes EVE so thrilling. It is darwin in motion, survival of the fittest. I fail to see how anybody can think it is any other way, 0.0 is by its very nature a place where only the strongest entities will thrive. This is a commonly expressed thought on these forums, but it doesn't really make sense. 0.0 is not "by its very nature" anything. There are no game mechanics enforcing a certain style of play, and CCP does not use its mind-control rays to make you do what you do. 0.0 is players making choices. BLUE chose to make different choices; the BLUE players and their friends created a kind of 0.0 in which co-operation (beyond the normal boundaries of corp and alliance) and altruism were possible. There are many reasons why the experiment failed, as much to do with internal organisation as external pressures. But putting it down to some fictional fundamental law of 0.0 is too simplistic by far. Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Hampstah Chosen Path	Posted - 2006.08.24 02:18:00 - [83] Edited by: Hampstah on 24/08/2006 02:18:50 Originally by: Moe Tard best post ever This is why I play EVE. There is no one way to play, it's all about what you can do with the pieces. ----- Beware Rodentz with Gunz
fuze Gallente Chosen Path	Posted - 2006.08.24 09:25:00 - [84] Eve is about people, not about guns.
Kingdoc Caldari The Arcanum	Posted - 2006.08.24 11:06:00 - [85] Originally by: Hampstah This is why I play EVE. There is no one way to play, it's all about what you can do with the pieces. Originally by: fuze Eve is about people, not about guns. Eve is about guns, and people, and pieces of guns, and guns turning people into pieces, and sometimes... pieces of people, like there time and effort and love of the game. TBB was and will always be the greatest idea in gamming. "by the people, for the people" Originally by: HappyKitten Originally by: Novarei These forums can go **** themselves. After extensive thought, I'm having trouble picturing this. Could you draw a diagram?
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:20:00 - [86] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 24/08/2006 23:22:39 Eve politics evolve and grow like any other system. You wait, given time free space 0.0 alliances who welcome neutrals will become more prevalent. Its not impossible to do, nor is it a foolish or stupid aim. Yes, it can be very hard work ... Lets not mix up the major motivation for wiping out this project - capital ship yards - with the fact that 'friendly' space attracts scum. As I understand it a well organised military operation crippled this venture, the scum just came in later to fight over the remains. Scum can't organise jack **** really, they just prey on the weak. It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, but eventually, inevitably, 0.0 will support, and allow to flourish, a non-nbsi alliance and the neutrals that attracts. Call me idealistic shrugs but without ideals, dreams and ambitions we may as well be playing tiddly winks. ----------------------------------------- Now recruiting.
Aehriman	Posted - 2006.08.25 05:35:00 - [87] You need to be strong enough to fight off your enemy, or small enough to hide. Simple. So either through economics and the hiring of every merc in the game, or by supporting your own standing fleet, you will need a force to stop those who would destroy what you are building. Its too bad seeing TBB leave 0.0, even though I did shoot people in their space it was something I saw as special in EVE, unique and worthy of respect. Best of luck, and I hope to see your next project come around before too long.
Mortuus Minmatar Oblivion's Gate	Posted - 2006.08.25 05:35:00 - [88] Wrong toon. ex-Occassus Republica <3
Dark Sin	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:34:00 - [89] back when i was in FOE we fought Big Blue from time to time, but i do applaud your efforts and agree that it was a great way for new players to get to see 0.0
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:44:00 - [90] Originally by: Dark Sin but i do applaud your efforts and agree that it was a great way for new players to get to see 0.0 .. or they could have joined EVE-university, experienced 0.0 and also help defend Big Blue space... but noooo thats not liberal minded enough is it... I think what really annoys me about those that promote 0.0 access for everybody is the fact that I believe its a smokescreen for the argument in favour of players playing EVE the way they want to... i.e if you wanna NPC all day long in 0.0 belts you should be able to, its your god given right to do so as you are paying a monthly fee. 0.0 is for the fighters and those that are prepared to pvp for the priveledge. Those that do not want to fight should go back to empire where they belong.

Asha Vividrin Vividrin Enterprises	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:10:00 - [91] so how many motherships have you guys actually built? I guess that would be one type of measurement for you guys? ~ Sigs are lame ~
Suladriel Caldari White Moon Knights	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:43:00 - [92] Edited by: Suladriel on 25/08/2006 15:44:08 Edited by: Suladriel on 25/08/2006 15:43:16 Originally by: Nez 0.0 is for the fighters and those that are prepared to pvp for the priveledge. Those that do not want to fight should go back to empire where they belong. This is, of course, just YOUR opinion. My opinion is that 0.0 is there for people to do whatever the heck they like with any space that they can claim. BB decided to make their space available to all and sundry and I believe they managed to pull that off for several months, in between all the lockdowns. (Please, no lockdown jokes, thats getting old now) I'm sorry to see BB go. They did what they set out to do and I wish them all luck for the future. -------------- .___. {O,o} /)__) -"-"- O RLY? I'm not famous, nor infamous. Your bio looks much better in colour, and I haxed this sig. --Jorauk
GrymmV	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:50:00 - [93] Edited by: GrymmV on 25/08/2006 15:52:12
GowanIV Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:52:00 - [94] "I think what really annoys me about those that promote 0.0 access for everybody is the fact that I believe its a smokescreen for the argument in favour of players playing EVE the way they want to... i.e if you wanna NPC all day long in 0.0 belts you should be able to, its your god given right to do so as you are paying a monthly fee. 0.0 is for the fighters and those that are prepared to pvp for the priveledge. Those that do not want to fight should go back to empire where they belong." ...and that is why this game will never be a serious competitor to WoW or any other MMO. Not everyone has the same desires but most want the ability to CHOOSE to play different aspects of the game without having play dictated by others. In Dark Age of Camelot you had the ability to obtain and use almost any trinket available in the game without resorting to PvP. Most of WoW gives you the ability to get access to most areas of the game without resorting to PvP. A vast majority of this game is restricted only to the strong and the ardent PvPers. Restricted access to minerals, limited use of POSes and thereby limited access to T2 components, extremely cool faction loot are just a few of the many examples of limited access. DON'T GET ME WRONG. I LOVE THIS GAME. However, EVE will never achieve the success other MMOs enjoy unless it makes the game playable to all types of players. This game has HUGE potential however it is my opinion that it will never be realized in its present condition. Sorry now posted with my main Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:36:00 - [95] Edited by: Nez Perces on 25/08/2006 16:39:17 Originally by: GowanIV ...and that is why this game will never be a serious competitor to WoW or any other MMO. Not everyone has the same desires but most want the ability to CHOOSE to play different aspects of the game without having play dictated by others. In Dark Age of Camelot you had the ability to obtain and use almost any trinket available in the game without resorting to PvP. Most of WoW gives you the ability to get access to most areas of the game without resorting to PvP. A vast majority of this game is restricted only to the strong and the ardent PvPers. Restricted access to minerals, limited use of POSes and thereby limited access to T2 components, extremely cool faction loot are just a few of the many examples of limited access. DON'T GET ME WRONG. I LOVE THIS GAME. However, EVE will never achieve the success other MMOs enjoy unless it makes the game playable to all types of players. This game has HUGE potential however it is my opinion that it will never be realized in its present condition. Sorry now posted with my main ... seems like we are getting much closer to the real motivations behind 0.0 access for everybody.... EVE is such a brilliant game/hobby because you gotta work damn hard for the good stuff.. you can't waltz in and just experience everything just cause you pay $/ú every month. Besides... there is a place where you can experience a large chunk of what the game has to offer in terms of content.. its called empire. In addition EVE is a world where your reputation is worth more than isk, and that is something you cannot buy. What reputation can a neutral hope to achieve by going to play in some sandbox provided by an entity passing itself off as altruistic by providing 0.0 access. 0.0 access for everybody is infact a farce... because you are teaching those that go there nothing. They will not learn the meaning of fighting for something worthwhile and they will take it all for granted. All 0.0 access for neutrals really does is satisfy the role playing fantasy of the entity providing it, i.e playing the 'good guy, caring and looking out for his fellow pod pilot' malarquee.. You don't learn about EVE by getting free access to 0.0 you learn about EVE by either setting up your own entity to take control over 0.0 or by joining an established entity and helping them to achieve their goals. AKA working as a team. I helped co-found my own corp (not the one I am in now... I mean J.H.E.N.R) to get access to 0.0 and when we got there we fought tooth and nail for the priveledge... I learnt so much.. what did you teach the pilots that went to 0.0 with a free ride?
Rick Thwaites DarkVengeance Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 17:19:00 - [96] When I was the CEO of NEMP, we had been using TBB's 0.0 for about 4 months, before we joined the alliance. We joined the alliance after it had been in turmoil, during the rebuilding and the SAS pestering. I was told by one of my ex-directors that TBB was the laughingstock of EVE. After seeing this topic, and it's replies I can surely say, I was not in the wrong in loving TBB. I was proud to fly BLUE and I am still proud to say I flew BLUE. It was the hardest way to play EVE, and I have all the respect for those who were in BLUE from... anytime really. -- Max sig dimensions are 400W x 120H - Cathath ([email protected]) Not the first time I have been told I am too big...
Jin Steele Fatalix Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.25 18:07:00 - [97] Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Dark Sin but i do applaud your efforts and agree that it was a great way for new players to get to see 0.0 .. or they could have joined EVE-university, experienced 0.0 and also help defend Big Blue space... but noooo thats not liberal minded enough is it... I think what really annoys me about those that promote 0.0 access for everybody is the fact that I believe its a smokescreen for the argument in favour of players playing EVE the way they want to... i.e if you wanna NPC all day long in 0.0 belts you should be able to, its your god given right to do so as you are paying a monthly fee. 0.0 is for the fighters and those that are prepared to pvp for the priveledge. Those that do not want to fight should go back to empire where they belong. We had been around the IPS constellation for a couple of months before actually joining BLUE, and i do believe that it had a strong PVP force. The problem with BLUE was internal corp disputes, as well as SAS and friends that did us in. It is true that MC was much stronger, and more efficient at combat, but that was a given. Most BLUE corps were not pvp corps, they were industrialists or new players. However, every one of them rose to the challenge when asked, which is more than i can say for some. We tried our best, won some battles, and lost some. I agree with others in saying that BLUE pilots went through more difficulty every day then many did in a month. When we were doing anything, we were targets by griefers, PvP corps, anyone who wanted easy money. We had no way to make money, being a defensive alliance. We did not choose our battles, we were forced into them, and fought to the best of our ability. I would say that the BLUE experiment was a success, and i think that more PvP oriented alliances will try to open their space as well. When we were under attack, we often got help from the neutrals in the system, and we found that they were just as willing to fight for the space as we were. By the way, im not sure what you meant by not wanting to fight, if you remember when Pure tried to get in, same as SAS. We were ready and willing for that fight, yet Pure outnumbered us, and refused to show. This was after the MC incident, when we were "weak", but you decided not to fight us, and didnt show your faces again in the constellation. Now, I dont mind if you make fun of our ideals or our industrial background, but if you are going to make fun of us for not fighting, please back it up.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.08.25 19:56:00 - [98] Originally by: Jin Steele but if you are going to make fun of us for not fighting, please back it up. .. who is us? Are you talking from the point of view of an ex-TBB pilot or as one of the neutrals that was using their space. If you can tell me that, I will be able to respond accordingly.. otherwise I'm a bit stuck.
00tricky Four Horsemen	Posted - 2006.08.25 20:02:00 - [99] We made friends; we accomplished goals, which we otherwise may never have been able to. No regrets here. "When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open for us." -Alexander Graham Bell Here's to friendship, here's to the good times and the bad. Wouldn't have had it any other way. non suficit orbis
Jin Steele Fatalix Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.25 20:21:00 - [100] Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Jin Steele but if you are going to make fun of us for not fighting, please back it up. .. who is us? Are you talking from the point of view of an ex-TBB pilot or as one of the neutrals that was using their space. If you can tell me that, I will be able to respond accordingly.. otherwise I'm a bit stuck. this is from the view of an ex-tbb pilot

GowanIV Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.25 20:56:00 - [101] This is a game.. nothing more.. nothing less. TBB, imo, was nothing more than an attempt to open up the playing experience for new players. When I joined Eve U over 6 months ago I believe there were only 2-300 members. I remember seeing that number over 800 recently. I know there was an arguement to be made that many joined just to be able to mine in 0.0. I don't believe this arguement can be applied to all of the members. I know of many pilots that joined, loved what they experienced in 0.0, and decided to move on to a more developed 0.0 corp. Some moved to pirating, some industrial, some mining, but wherever they went I like to think that their decision to stay in 0.0 space was due to their exposure while participating in activiites in the IPS region. To me that is what Blue & IPS was all about. That is the reason I will always look fondly on my time spent in Blue. If some cannot see this then no amount of typing in a Forum will ever change the mindset. Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Halafian Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.25 20:57:00 - [102] Originally by: Nez Perces I think what really annoys me about those that promote 0.0 access for everybody is the fact that I believe its a smokescreen for the argument in favour of players playing EVE the way they want to... i.e if you wanna NPC all day long in 0.0 belts you should be able to, its your god given right to do so as you are paying a monthly fee. 0.0 is for the fighters and those that are prepared to pvp for the priveledge. Those that do not want to fight should go back to empire where they belong. Actually, it seems more and more that 0.0 is for crowds of clones in completely generic mega-blob-NBSI-Alliances. That will probably increase, as sovereignty issues, POS warfare, etc, all become systematized. Game mechanics basically push people into these giant borg-like clumps. It's like getting into the right guild in WoW; get into the biggest guild, do what your raid leader/fleet commander tells you to do, collect ph4t l3wts. Too bad. I hope the Eve designers think about this. At any rate, whatever problems TBB had were not related to its neutral policy, so your theories on this score are very much wide of the mark.
Da'iel Zehn Exercitus Ruina	Posted - 2006.08.25 22:44:00 - [103] I don't post much on the forums for a few reasons, but I had to take this opportunity to say something. There is not much else to be said that hasn't already been said. TBB, sorry to see you guys leave IPS, and I hope you all the best in your endeavors. Before TBB came out to IPS my corp (Pinnacle Sun Industries at the time) and I did quite a few things out that way. It was always a fight with the pirates and campers. We were very green when it came to 0.0, but it was fun running blockades and escaping hardened PvPers (especially in industrials, lol). I learned a lot. When you guys arrived and setup it was awesome. I really enjoyed my time in IPS flying with you guys. As a middle level player it was great to go hang out and have a lot of fun. I'll never forget my first fleet activities chasing attackers, fighting pirates, and guarding the area. Pinnacle Sun Industries did its best to help out, and we really had a lot of fun. We shared the same ideals, and I still wish you guys would have let us join TBB. We had 40+ members and they were all good guys who wanted to help. Maybe if you guys would have let in more corps who stood with you... Anyway... We wanted to go out into 0.0 and try our hand, so we ended up joining another alliance. We went out, setup a home, lost 45% of our members who wanted to stay in empire and out of wars, got the sh*t kicked out of us, and I decided to merge PSN with another corp in that current alliance. After all we didn't have the ability to make the required membership fees for the alliance with all the fighting and losses we were taking. Unfortunately I found that being out in 0.0 really hindered my ability to play Eve. There was always someone with a gun pointed at us, I didn't really have a "home" to store my equipment and ships, and I couldn't even hardly mine with the PvPers and Rats. I never did get a load of zydrine back to empire. So here I am on the edge of Empire, a boring place. I'm too old to have fun around here and I am too young to go out into 0.0 and be effective against T2 ships and gear. The alliance I was in disbanded, I left the corp I joined, and tried to join other alliances but never got a response. One word: sucks. So... Thanks for all the fun and opportunities TBB! Take care.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.08.26 01:14:00 - [104] Originally by: Jin Steele this is from the view of an ex-tbb pilot In that case find a single post of mine that suggests that TBB did not stand their ground and fight. Likewise, suggesting that all the neutrals that lived off TBB's territory fought for them is ludicrous. Thats not what my posting is about. What is 0.0? Lets think about that for a second... 0.0 is a place where practically anything goes.. there is no law, no concord or game mechanics offering protection. If you are in 0.0 you are a target its a dog eat dog environment. I dont know about TBB's inner workings and I don't need to. What I do know is how unforgivable the 0.0 environment is, its possibly a first in terms of MMORG's. Its a beautiful concept imo. An environment where entities/corporations are sometimes tested to their absolute limits. Some of you are suggesting that the game has become stangnant and that only the established entities stand a chance. You could not be further from the truth... EVE is an equal opportunities environment. If you want something in EVE, you can go out and get it. However, to achieve greatness you have to learn how things work. You have to look at how the entities that rule the galaxy operate. And this is the crucial item imo, a sense of history, EVE has that.. one can effectively study past successes or failures in terms of alliances and corporations, and learn from them. We all know who the successes are in EVE and by what criteria they operate, it is not via free access to 0.0 (certainly not where conquerable stations are concerned) and never will be. The only other entity that tried to make access available to all and sundry was CFS.. and that is widely recognized as how not to run an alliance. It seems like TBB is going to go down in history as another case of "how not to do things". For all you liberals out there, welcome to EVE and welcome to 0.0.
Manas Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.26 01:47:00 - [105] So: - TBB lasted longer the the average alliance, - It's member corps liked it, - Neutrals liked it, - New players liked it, - Even the "Day tripping" pirates liked it But it is an example of what not to do? TBB folded because it was hit by a continuous row of PvP corps and alliances. Most Alliances will fold this way. Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Valkazm Amarr Cursed Spawn Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.26 01:48:00 - [106] so what did we learn Kill or be killed
Moe Tard BLUE Bed and Breakfast The Big Blue	Posted - 2006.08.26 01:48:00 - [107] Originally by: GowanIV ...and that is why this game will never be a serious competitor to WoW or any other MMO.[...] Who says EVE should compete with WoW ? In the same fashion diversity is valuable in EVE, it is valuable in the MMO offer on the market. WoW is an entirely different game, PvE centric, where the in-game actions of the players have no lasting impact on the environment (or on other player characters). Is that a BadThingÖ ? No, but stating eve should me more WoW-like is asking for a different game entirely. Quote: A vast majority of this game is restricted only to the strong and the ardent PvPers. Restricted access to minerals, limited use of POSes and thereby limited access to T2 components, extremely cool faction loot are just a few of the many examples of limited access. Every trinket (but capital ships) can be obtained and used in safe empire without any PvP: it's just a matter of how much ISK you are prepared to spend on it. Empire and NPC economy are bootstraps and stabilizers systems in EVE: the design goal (by CCP's admission) is to enable a predominatly sandbox model with a player driven economy. PvE/NPC content is merely there to get the ball rolling until players take over most aspects of life in EVE. The economic model is that of a state-sponsored capitalism (CCP being the state here), where state-owned companies follow regulated prices to support the fledgling private market. 0.0 industrial benefits are a "development grant", encouraging private investors to go try and develop infrastructure deprived areas (low-sec and 0.0) with tax cuts (fuel savings on POSes) and deregulation (military-grade production such as capital ships). Likewise, natural resources in 0.0 yield such a higher profit only because of... scarcity. At constant use (assuming BPO's formulas don't change), the prices on high-end ores will go down (relative to others at least) as 0.0 gets settled, simply because there are enough belts/moons to supply the market, just not enough miners/POSes at this point to meet the demand at lower prices. Settlement and infrastructure development in 0.0 is up to the players, and will happen largely thanks to those economic incentives (and the ego trip of somehow "owning" space). Enabling the same content (at comparable cost) in high-sec empire would remove those incentives, turning 0.0 into a barren PvP arena of very limited interest to anyone. Freedom and safety are reconciliable only to the extent people use their freedom to ensure the safety of what they hold dear. With freedom comes uncertainty, and that's what makes EVE interesting for most players: their achievements mean something because they amount to more than following a scripted walkthrough to a a fake success. EVE game mechanics and content are about providing the players with the tools to try and do their own thing, not for the system to bake food and spoonfeed the players on the sole provision they sink enough time to grind levels, and that's what makes EVE inherently different from the WoW and EQ of this world: those are theme parks, while EVE is a giant lab full of Space Lego bricks (which one is free to visit as a park, ofc). That's one option 0.0 as we know it enables: shape the landscape by building infrastructure and civilization in the wild. Or not, choice is left to the players. Originally by: Nez Perces For all you liberals out there, welcome to EVE and welcome to 0.0. Welcome to a complex world, were we treasure your existence as a warning for others. ---- Crazy janitor mumbling to himself in an empty building.
Carzaro Merious N.A.G.A Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.26 04:59:00 - [108] Rock on Moe... Rock on...
Kazim The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.08.26 05:09:00 - [109] The Big Blue is and always will be my favorite alliance name
Kazim The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.08.26 05:17:00 - [110] Edited by: Kazim on 26/08/2006 05:19:26 Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Jin Steele this is from the view of an ex-tbb pilot In that case find a single post of mine that suggests that TBB did not stand their ground and fight. Likewise, suggesting that all the neutrals that lived off TBB's territory fought for them is ludicrous. Thats not what my posting is about. What is 0.0? Lets think about that for a second... 0.0 is a place where practically anything goes.. there is no law, no concord or game mechanics offering protection. If you are in 0.0 you are a target its a dog eat dog environment. I dont know about TBB's inner workings and I don't need to. What I do know is how unforgivable the 0.0 environment is, its possibly a first in terms of MMORG's. Its a beautiful concept imo. An environment where entities/corporations are sometimes tested to their absolute limits. Some of you are suggesting that the game has become stangnant and that only the established entities stand a chance. You could not be further from the truth... EVE is an equal opportunities environment. If you want something in EVE, you can go out and get it. However, to achieve greatness you have to learn how things work. You have to look at how the entities that rule the galaxy operate. And this is the crucial item imo, a sense of history, EVE has that.. one can effectively study past successes or failures in terms of alliances and corporations, and learn from them. We all know who the successes are in EVE and by what criteria they operate, it is not via free access to 0.0 (certainly not where conquerable stations are concerned) and never will be. The only other entity that tried to make access available to all and sundry was CFS.. and that is widely recognized as how not to run an alliance. It seems like TBB is going to go down in history as another case of "how not to do things". For all you liberals out there, welcome to EVE and welcome to 0.0. You are so tough man Edit: spelling I'm off to slap the monkey

Nervar Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2006.08.28 06:34:00 - [111] Good luck to all the members that has been in BLUE. Respect for what you tried to do. and ill wish you the best of luck for the future

Tirg Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.08.28 13:53:00 - [112] This is beginning to turn to flaming/trolling. If it doesn't cease immediately, this thread will be locked. If you have any questions, please email us at [email protected].

Kai Jyokoroi 133rd Ghost Wing R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.28 22:12:00 - [113] Edited by: Kai Jyokoroi on 28/08/2006 22:14:47 Edited by: Kai Jyokoroi on 28/08/2006 22:12:30 Originally by: GowanIV "I think what really annoys me about those that promote 0.0 access for everybody is the fact that I believe its a smokescreen for the argument in favour of players playing EVE the way they want to... i.e if you wanna NPC all day long in 0.0 belts you should be able to, its your god given right to do so as you are paying a monthly fee. snip-Tirg Quote: ...and that is why this game will never be a serious competitor to WoW or any other MMO. Not everyone has the same desires but most want the ability to CHOOSE to play different aspects of the game without having play dictated by others. In Dark Age of Camelot you had the ability to obtain and use almost any trinket available in the game without resorting to PvP. Most of WoW gives you the ability to get access to most areas of the game without resorting to PvP. A vast majority of this game is restricted only to the strong and the ardent PvPers. Restricted access to minerals, limited use of POSes and thereby limited access to T2 components, extremely cool faction loot are just a few of the many examples of limited access. DON'T GET ME WRONG. I LOVE THIS GAME. However, EVE will never achieve the success other MMOs enjoy unless it makes the game playable to all types of players. This game has HUGE potential however it is my opinion that it will never be realized in its present condition. Sorry now posted with my main Two things - 1) Eve already is a massive success. Since the demise of Planetside it is the worlds largest and best pvp based MMO game. 2) The fact that you don't get access to the good stuff without substantial risk and willingness to lose stuff is a VERY GOOD THING. You can still PVE all the time and get really nice things (i.e. spend six months missioning for a Vindicator, or run a 10/10 a couple of times... ), but it generally means that Empire PVE-only lamers don't get access to the best things, get annoyed, and leave for some carebear friendly MMO like FFXI, leaving more server space and therefore less lag for the people who want to do the fun stuff (i.e. try to kill you.) We don't WANT 100,000 simultaneous PvE players on Eve who can get access to the highest level things with no risk of losing them. That means time, not skill, determines who gets the best stuff. 15,000 PvP players would be 50 times better, which is pretty much the way it actually is. As my corpmates say all the time, WoW is that way ----> _____________ The day I receive my first moderator forum-sig hijack is the day I realise I have won Eve.
Izo Azlion Veto.	Posted - 2006.08.29 01:46:00 - [114] A very sad time actually... Coming from a Pirate, that says something. I see alot of Alliances that I have no real heart for, no real reason to see their existance... Big Blue was one of the few. Kudos, may you all find a new home. Izo Azlion. --- Veto.


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