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Petition - ban capitals carrying pos components and fuel

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slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:29:00 - [1] Possibly going to be the least popular petition ever. The Scenario Increasingly it has become evident that capitals are being used to haul pos fuel. It makes perfect sense for this to happen. its a quick easy and safe way to transport large volumes of materials. The Problem The problem in my view is that it effectively can take the risk out of 0.0 which devalues 0.0. 2 scenarios- 1.corp A jumps a pos into 0.0 easy jump range from a 0.4 system using a capital. the fuel is then jumped in to keep it going. the effect - NO RISK 0.0. Battleships are kept at pos, easy npc. hostiles come in system - lets log off at the pos. yay all safe no risk. -No NEED TO ICE MINE in 0.0. why bother its not safe. mine in empire and jump it right in. 2.alliance A. POS wars in deep space? NO PROBLEMO. lets bring the capital fleet in. not to engage enemy pos- far too laggy. lets just setup 5 times the amount of pos the enemy have. once weve taken one system lets play pos dominos and move the blighters around. effect - sucky pos wars. meh pos stuff should be carried by freighters and hauelrs only. /rant over
inSpirAcy Caldari The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:32:00 - [2] How are they going to jump anywhere without isotopes? (or for Dreadnoughts, get into siege mode without strontium)
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:33:00 - [3] Originally by: inSpirAcy How are they going to jump anywhere without isotopes? (or for Dreadnoughts, get into siege mode without strontium) be fuelled by doughnuts for all i care.
Agito Wanijima	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:37:00 - [4] I think it's a clever strategy ^^;; Capital Ships do have Jump Drives for a reason, it it'll still cost money for the fuel! Whoever thought of that tactic, I want you to have a medal for creativity
Triest Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:48:00 - [5] Edited by: Triest on 23/08/2006 20:49:27 Originally by: inSpirAcy How are they going to jump anywhere without isotopes? (or for Dreadnoughts, get into siege mode without strontium) It's actually easily sustainable. A single jump takes a small fraction of the total cargo space of a dread or carrier. And a single industrial, or battleship, or particularly recon ship, can hold enough fuel to open many cynos on its own, so you don't really have the chicken-and-egg problem of 'how do you get fuel to open the cyno in the first place', it's easily done with a single ship. It's really just a question of patience; can you handle jumping a carrier in and out 30 times, or can you get 5 carriers to do it 6 times? It's generally far more efficient timewise to just bring in a freighter once a month, but it has the risk associated with 0.0 then. Personally, I think people shouldn't be able to Cyno into bubbles at all, since it's basically a way to do risk free logistics, but I'm generally anti-POS overall.
Erfnam Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:48:00 - [6] Using jump drive ships to move items safetly around seems like a smart strategy, especially in risky locations. It's balanced because of the cost involved with doing the many jumps. It also requires less time and manpower to use capital ships for logistics. No need to have a full fledged convoy with escorts. Recruiting Casino - Monitor Thread
Tribunal Darkblade Technologies Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:49:00 - [7] If jumps were free I would agree with you, but they aren't. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:54:00 - [8] Dont nerf clever ppl. Ship lovers click here
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.23 21:01:00 - [9] Edited by: slothe on 23/08/2006 21:03:40 Originally by: Erfnam It also requires less time and manpower to use capital ships for logistics. No need to have a full fledged convoy with escorts. that sir, is my point. pos and fuel should have to risk these convoys that is the risk. there is no / little risk to jumping pos and fuel. oh and btw its not "clever" its just plain easy/lazy.
Agito Wanijima	Posted - 2006.08.23 21:20:00 - [10] It is actually quite clever and ingenuitive. I doubt anyone here who owns/wants-to-own a station, would be willing to risk millions of ISK of fuel in a convoy, billions on freighters and escort fighters, and more manhours getting multipule people together for a most likely boring escort event. All that just so it might be "fair" (Fair is relative, nothing is fair in war) for a possible pirate gang or rival corperation to raid their convoy. Nope... I don't see it. Jump Drives are a game mechanic for multi billion ISK ships, and people are using it within the non-exploiting limits CCP has set for the players.
CFC Fodder Gallente 432	Posted - 2006.08.23 21:24:00 - [11] Don't like people using ships as they they wish to? Use tactics instwead; they need to mine Jump Drive Fuel somewhere, and that would be teir weak point to disrupt the activity you are so displeased with, with the least effort needed. Originally by: Arian Snow "GTC for ISK" promotes farming of isk to pay for your character those isk underminde the economy and creates inflation!!! Its like printing money in RL...
CFC Fodder Gallente 432	Posted - 2006.08.23 21:33:00 - [12] Don't like people using ships as they they wish to? Use tactics instwead; they need to mine Jump Drive Fuel somewhere, and that would be teir weak point to disrupt the activity you are so displeased with, with the least effort needed. And, corret me if I am wrong- but isn't it rather hard to drop items from a freighter into space? Especially space where you are building a POS? Besides which, you wouldn't want to illuminate a new POS site underway with the usual Cynosural Field.... Originally by: Arian Snow "GTC for ISK" promotes farming of isk to pay for your character those isk underminde the economy and creates inflation!!! Its like printing money in RL...
LadyFaile	Posted - 2006.08.23 21:53:00 - [13] Originally by: slothe Possibly going to be the least popular petition ever. The Scenario Increasingly it has become evident that capitals are being used to haul pos fuel. It makes perfect sense for this to happen. its a quick easy and safe way to transport large volumes of materials. The Problem The problem in my view is that it effectively can take the risk out of 0.0 which devalues 0.0. /rant over Life sucks, get a ******* helmet A carrier is a logistics ship. Next time you rant over it being able to carry ships to the front in 0.0 too so you cant gategank them wtf Carriers are designed for these operations, and (shock) that is what they do.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.08.23 21:56:00 - [14] Originally by: CFC Fodder Don't like people using ships as they they wish to? Didn't really spot anyone blaming the people for doing that. It is the most obvious and wise tactic indeed. So as long as the tactic exists, the folks better be using it. What OP seems to be suggesting is that the game in whole might be better if people were not able to use such safe tactics. Same like if we had 'I Win' buttons, I sure would be using one, but the game would suffer. And to have some opinion about the topic: yes, I would like to hold on 'high risk high reward' mantra for 0.0. Not too familiar if Carrier-haulers really break it, but if they do I am all for nerfing them. -Lasse a carrier-hauler-able pilot Use tactics instwead; they need to mine Jump Drive Fuel somewhere, and that would be teir weak point to disrupt the activity you are so displeased with, with the least effort needed. And, corret me if I am wrong- but isn't it rather hard to drop items from a freighter into space? Especially space where you are building a POS? Besides which, you wouldn't want to illuminate a new POS site underway with the usual Cynosural Field....
Rexthor Hammerfists Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.23 21:56:00 - [15] its become all too easy imo, so i agree with the op. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
Nervar Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:08:00 - [16] /signed -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:08:00 - [17] Life sucks, get a ******* helmet A carrier is a logistics ship. Next time you rant over it being able to carry ships to the front in 0.0 too so you cant gategank them wtf Carriers are designed for these operations, and (shock) that is what they do. ive spent the last 2 years or so in 0.0. im in 0.0 to fight people . i have a choice to fight alliances who blob me or to fight smaller corps who hide at pos. who is there to fight ? no-one. war dec empire corps they stay docked. what to do ? cancel subscripton and play summat else?
anotleam	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:18:00 - [18] Originally by: slothe Life sucks, get a ******* helmet A carrier is a logistics ship. Next time you rant over it being able to carry ships to the front in 0.0 too so you cant gategank them wtf Carriers are designed for these operations, and (shock) that is what they do. ive spent the last 2 years or so in 0.0. im in 0.0 to fight people . i have a choice to fight alliances who blob me or to fight smaller corps who hide at pos. who is there to fight ? no-one. war dec empire corps they stay docked. what to do ? cancel subscripton and play summat else? Uhm, i've been living in 0.0 too, we use jumpdrives for that kind of stuff. We still have good old pirates arround to fight with. Tbh the part of pvp that this is affecting is the one of sitting at gate with 8 gankaships and a bubble for a few hours... that i dont miss. Maybe the fuel is too cheap tho, jump haul is really effective now
Phoenix Jones	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:18:00 - [19] As much as I hate the attitude and reasoning for slothes actions in 0.0... he's right. This will need to be addressed. ---------------The Low Sec Issue------------- Gatecamps that kill all who pass with no remorse and in many cases, no possible way of retaliation, is not PVP.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:19:00 - [20] Originally by: slothe Possibly going to be the least popular petition ever. The Scenario Increasingly it has become evident that capitals are being used to haul pos fuel. It makes perfect sense for this to happen. its a quick easy and safe way to transport large volumes of materials. The Problem The problem in my view is that it effectively can take the risk out of 0.0 which devalues 0.0. 2 scenarios- 1.corp A jumps a pos into 0.0 easy jump range from a 0.4 system using a capital. the fuel is then jumped in to keep it going. the effect - NO RISK 0.0. Battleships are kept at pos, easy npc. hostiles come in system - lets log off at the pos. yay all safe no risk. -No NEED TO ICE MINE in 0.0. why bother its not safe. mine in empire and jump it right in. It's not simply risk, it's risk vs reward. How exactly are battleships sitting in a POS, or logged off, reaping profits from 0.0 space? They don't. Originally by: slothe 2.alliance A. POS wars in deep space? NO PROBLEMO. lets bring the capital fleet in. not to engage enemy pos- far too laggy. lets just setup 5 times the amount of pos the enemy have. once weve taken one system lets play pos dominos and move the blighters around. effect - sucky pos wars. meh pos stuff should be carried by freighters and hauelrs only. /rant over Effect of your proposal: any attack by an alliance attacking a bigger alliance for territory become next to impossible. First because the bigger alliance will have the advantage number, second because the outnumbered alliance need to divert a sizable portion of it's manpower to man the haulers. And freighters aren't an option, because they're station-to-station only. In those conditions, the only alliances that would be able to conduct an offensive POS war successfully would be the big ones. Your cure would be far worse than the problem (and imho, that's not really a problem to begin with)... ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:30:00 - [21] Eh...require that the fuel be "processed" at a POS to make it useable for ship use. Adds a step (and thus cost) and some risk to the process.
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:48:00 - [22] I say yes to this idea, but only if fuel lasted longer and freighters were buffed in either cargo capacity, agility, HP, and/or cost. My main comment against this idea is that if you don't like carrier POS wars live in deep, deep space (I'm talking 40-50 jumps) where eveything has to be hauled a long way with freighters or else the fuel will cost a fortune.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:50:00 - [23] gonna have to agree w/ slothe on this one yes, its damn convinient, preferred method of moving fuel when ya need it fast.... ...but if ccp really intended carriers to be used for this, your freighter would have a jump drive on it. Its taking a critical risk of maintaining a 0.0 empire out of the equation. You have 'nearly' no chance at restricting your enemies supply lines HankMurphy once punched Lindsay Lohan right in the face
Arondor	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:59:00 - [24] nerf POS wars, the sov system is borked and boring. Otherwise things are fine. As far as not having people to fight, this wouldn't change things, there were POSs pre-carriers and pre-frieghters, people still warped to them, they are just too usefull in 0.0 not to have. And even if you got rid of them people could just warp to a SS and hide that way, or have have 3 or 4 and keep moving and you wouldn't be able to catch them.
Izo Azlion Veto.	Posted - 2006.08.23 23:01:00 - [25] Training for a capital and all the support skills - Probably a year. Getting ISK for such an investment - Big effort Bringing pos fuels in using capitals - saving time. ... Tbh if you can afford it, go for it. i would. Izo Azlion. --- Veto.
Kashre Minmatar Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.23 23:03:00 - [26] Edited by: Kashre on 23/08/2006 23:03:32 Originally by: HankMurphy gonna have to agree w/ slothe on this one yes, its damn convinient, preferred method of moving fuel when ya need it fast.... ...but if ccp really intended carriers to be used for this, your freighter would have a jump drive on it. Its taking a critical risk of maintaining a 0.0 empire out of the equation. You have 'nearly' no chance at restricting your enemies supply lines HankMurphy once punched Lindsay Lohan right in the face The critical risk in maintaining a 0.0 empire is that if you don't have enough manpower to protect your own POSes someone with 50 dreads and 100 BS is going to waltz in, knock them all over and take your space that way. There's nothing wrong with using a dread or carrier to haul.. in fact, they get called on so seldom for actual fighting that the only way to get your 3 bil out of a dread is to haul with it. Its a THREE BILLION isk ship. I think someone who spends that kind of money on a ship deserves to do something with it other than look at it in station and maybe pull it out for a week or two every 3 months during a big war. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.23 23:10:00 - [27] Edited by: Mr Peanut on 23/08/2006 23:13:20 Edited by: Mr Peanut on 23/08/2006 23:10:29 Originally by: Kashre Edited by: Kashre on 23/08/2006 23:03:32 Originally by: HankMurphy gonna have to agree w/ slothe on this one yes, its damn convinient, preferred method of moving fuel when ya need it fast.... ...but if ccp really intended carriers to be used for this, your freighter would have a jump drive on it. Its taking a critical risk of maintaining a 0.0 empire out of the equation. You have 'nearly' no chance at restricting your enemies supply lines HankMurphy once punched Lindsay Lohan right in the face The critical risk in maintaining a 0.0 empire is that if you don't have enough manpower to protect your own POSes someone with 50 dreads and 100 BS is going to waltz in, knock them all over and take your space that way. There's nothing wrong with using a dread or carrier to haul.. in fact, they get called on so seldom for actual fighting that the only way to get your 3 bil out of a dread is to haul with it. Its a THREE BILLION isk ship. I think someone who spends that kind of money on a ship deserves to do something with it other than look at it in station and maybe pull it out for a week or two every 3 months during a big war. I disagree. That's like saying that freighters cost 1 bil, so why don't they have a wtfcannon and a Taj Mahal drone bay on them like dreads do? "WTF why can't my mothership fit a covert ops cloak?"
Zekk Pacus Caldari StateCorp	Posted - 2006.08.23 23:14:00 - [28] There's still a risk involved. Generally speaking it takes two or three jumps. That's two or three recon ships, or haulers, sitting in 0.0 space with little in the way of defenses. That's the weak link there. Plus if you can catch the carrier, what a coup.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.23 23:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Kashre Edited by: Kashre on 23/08/2006 23:03:32 Originally by: HankMurphy gonna have to agree w/ slothe on this one yes, its damn convinient, preferred method of moving fuel when ya need it fast.... ...but if ccp really intended carriers to be used for this, your freighter would have a jump drive on it. Its taking a critical risk of maintaining a 0.0 empire out of the equation. You have 'nearly' no chance at restricting your enemies supply lines HankMurphy once punched Lindsay Lohan right in the face The critical risk in maintaining a 0.0 empire is that if you don't have enough manpower to protect your own POSes someone with 50 dreads and 100 BS is going to waltz in, knock them all over and take your space that way. There's nothing wrong with using a dread or carrier to haul.. in fact, they get called on so seldom for actual fighting that the only way to get your 3 bil out of a dread is to haul with it. Its a THREE BILLION isk ship. I think someone who spends that kind of money on a ship deserves to do something with it other than look at it in station and maybe pull it out for a week or two every 3 months during a big war. 'The critical risk'? There are many, not just one. This is a mute argument, you either agree or ya dont. And since everyone does it, and its not an exploit or anything... there isn't anything 'wrong' with DOING it, what we are questioning is if you should be ABLE to do it at all... now most of us know how 0.0 works, but thanks for the quick lesson point is its cheesy. I suppose I'm preaching to the *****house, as most ppl in this game would rather the quick and easy to everything. The same would love 0.0 to be carebear land forever w/ no risk, some of us appreciate the risks that make this game so good. ....its too easy & the ship price doesn't mean you should no longer have to worry about dangerous supply runs. But till ccp has a problem w/ it, i'll be doin it right along side everyone else. It works frickin great, thats why we ALL do it. but its CHEEEEESE. (btw...The cost of the ship and the fact you dont get your capital ships out but in a 3-4 times a year isn't justification for an argument, its a personal problem)
Elmicker	Posted - 2006.08.23 23:24:00 - [30] I do have to agree with this. Red Alliance have done just this. In the dead of night, they snuck a recon ship in, erected a cyno in one of the periphery systems of immensea (which contains arkonor belts and a hidden complex) and dropped a carrier right into it. Before we even noticed the cyno on the map, the large tower was half anchored and the carrier(s) had already got the stock of fuel, guns and ammo ready to put online as soon as possible. This system is a dead-end system, so all they have to do is have one person on the gate, and as soon as it flashes, the miners and plex farmers warp back to the pos and log. They don't even have to buy ships, they just jump in a BPC and mine everything they need. There is nothing we can do. If we pop the POSes, all they do is jump in more the moment we leave. We cannot do anything, except cover every moon in a POS, which costs a fortune, lags everyone to hell and just starts lame pos-spam wars.

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