Like I said, I dont want any nerfs, just a rebalance of the other races.

But you forgot to list a few things in your fits:
1. The Abaddon gets armor resist bonus and the Pest has almost as much EHP.
2. The Pest has 2 neuts and dual webs
3. And most imporant, speed is 861 v. 689. I'll let you guess which is higher. ;)

It's almost as if we should be looking at balancing ships instead of races?!

How to fit a brawling Minmatar ship:
1. Fit largest autocannons
2. If applicable, fit correctly sized neuts
3. Fit oversize/extra plates
4. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:gyrostabs you feel like
5. Fit MWD
6. Fit all those mids with whatever you want. Webs, cap boosters, sebos, anything
You now have absurd dps, speed, tank and utility.
7. Winmatar at all PVP

How to fit armour anything else:
1. Fit largest guns
2. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
3. Realise you can't fit a tank with your guns
4. Move the guns down a size
5. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
6. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:damage mods you feel like
7. Fit MWD
8. Realise that MWD gets you over the powergrid
9. Move a gun down another size or reduce the size of a plate
10. Fit warp disruptor
11. Realise you're over CPU. Make warp disruptor meta
12. Fit cap booster.
13. Realise you're over powergrid. Downsize the cap booster.
14. Realise you were over CPU as well. Make the DCU meta and replace an EANM with adaptive nano plating
You now have an extremely tight fit, with less dps, tank, speed and utility than a Minmatar counterpart
15. Die terribly for not flying Winmatar.

I see the problem now. You're arguing with numbers, but not actually providing any, you know, NUMBERS to back it up. Let me show you an example of how we argue while using actual proof to back our claims:
Zealot versus vaga:
For the zealot we'll use the fist fit, swapping the tc/sebo for a web and a WD:
For the vaga, we'll go with the standard 2 LSE 2 damage mods + DC II (the other slots are largely irrelevant since we're not looking at speed or range, this is just a brawling fit)
Raw numbers:
Zealot has 500 DPS with 56k EHP
Vaga has 530 with 29k EHP
After resists on opposing ship are factored in:
Vaga deals 135 DPS with RFPP
Zealot deals 130 with INMF
Meaning:
Zealot takes 223 seconds to kill a vaga
Vaga takes 437 seconds to kill a zealot

500DPS Vaga?

LOL not even overheated, and even then its only 445 DPS from 3km and NO ONE in their right mind is going to willing walk a Vagabond in that close......ever.

Compare your numbers from 23k where you can reasonably expect to find a non-moronic vaga pilot.

Every race is balanced, some are just more balanced than others. Why don't you try flying minmatar before you complain.

I do
-

Being fast = dictating engagement range = Win

You do realize there are counters to that right ?
You do realize Eve's not a 1v1 game right ?

What exactly are you whining about ?

If you're not happy about them dictating engagement range, then how about you fit your ship to counter that ?

You do realize there are counters to that right ?

How to fit a brawling Minmatar ship:
1. Fit largest autocannons
2. If applicable, fit correctly sized neuts
3. Fit oversize/extra plates
4. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:gyrostabs you feel like
5. Fit MWD
6. Fit all those mids with whatever you want. Webs, cap boosters, sebos, anything
You now have absurd dps, speed, tank and utility.
7. Winmatar at all PVP

How to fit armour anything else:
1. Fit largest guns
2. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
3. Realise you can't fit a tank with your guns
4. Move the guns down a size
5. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
6. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:damage mods you feel like
7. Fit MWD
8. Realise that MWD gets you over the powergrid
9. Move a gun down another size or reduce the size of a plate
10. Fit warp disruptor
11. Realise you're over CPU. Make warp disruptor meta
12. Fit cap booster.
13. Realise you're over powergrid. Downsize the cap booster.
14. Realise you were over CPU as well. Make the DCU meta and replace an EANM with adaptive nano plating
You now have an extremely tight fit, with less dps, tank, speed and utility than a Minmatar counterpart
15. Die terribly for not flying Winmatar.

Gratz, you have found the holy grail and discovered the meaning of Eve. Care to enlighten the rest of us?

Jeez...

1-¦) Being fast
Fight fire with fire, use Huggins/Rapiers. If you have a bottomless wallet, slap faction webs to your fits.
Decent alternative/addition would be Lachesis/Arazu with Dampeners w/ Locking range scripts and/or warp scramblers.

2-¦) Dictating engagement range
Add some Pilgrims/Curses to your fleet / Have your support to fit Tracking Disruptors w/ Optimal Range disruption scripts.

Either they are bold and try to engage, then die,
either they warp off and you live.

If I rephrase for you:

"Unless you are also flying Minmatar ships, the best you can reasonably hope for is to chase the Minmatar ships off."

Your example is a perfect illustration of the problem. ;)

They reinstated the falloff penalty, but at a reduced value (-25%).

Patch notes for Crucible and the stats on SiSI both say otherwise. Penalty is removed in both instances.

CCP Tallest said one thing, CCP did something different.

If I rephrase for you:

"Unless you are also flying Minmatar ships, the best you can reasonably hope for is to chase the Minmatar ships off."

Your example is a perfect illustration of the problem. ;)

Let me ask you (and all the other anti-minmatar whiners) something:

What exactly do you want CCP to do about minmatar? They're already notably weaker than amarr ships at actually fighting, and pretty much regardless of any nerf they get to their combat stats they will be used in pvp (because again, people are obsessed with KB stats, and being able to pick your fights gives better stats than actually being good at fighting).

By your logic, force recons/stealth bombers are the most OP ships in the game, because nothing can catch them once they cloak.


Let me ask you (and all the other anti-minmatar whiners) something:

What exactly do you want CCP to do about minmatar? They're already notably weaker than amarr ships at actually fighting, and pretty much regardless of any nerf they get to their combat stats they will be used in pvp (because again, people are obsessed with KB stats, and being able to pick your fights gives better stats than actually being good at fighting).

If you reduce their speed, then you're losing the only real advantage they have (fitting difficulties are also irrelevant, because a minmatar ship with top tier mods is still worse at brawling than an amarr ship that had to make some sacrifices to get everything to fit). Without speed there is absolutely no reason to fly the vast majority of the minmatar ships, because once speed is taken out of the equation, amarr are provably better.(and nerfing minmatar speed would just have you whining about gallente, who are the next fastest race).

One race is going to be faster, short of CCP making all races have identical speeds. Said race will always have an advantage at picking engagements. A great way to balance this is by making the fastest ships have the least DPS and EHP. What's that? CCP already does this? Stop whining then.

As I believe I've said a number of times in this thread, I dont want Matar to be nerfed (nor Amarr). But the other races need some ship buffing/rebalancing.

Its ok for Matar to be the best at some things. But right now, they are the best, or among the best, at a great many things. And to top it off (and IMHO this is the real reason above all) Matar ships have the best tank in the game - GTFO. The Matar line is really good, or reasonably passable at most roles in the game, while at the same time have the uber (isk-wise) ability to leave when they are overmatched. That is not the case for the vast majority of Amarr, Gallente and not-Drakes. Really - I think this is the real reason so many people fly them (and the ever-present drake) - you have far less risk of losing your ship.

The other problem is that unlike many other MMO, you cant just re-spec overnight if you want to change roles. It is often a month long process or more + the lost opportunity cost of training something else that you need more.

Again - I dont favor nerfs. I favor buffs to balance. I dont claim to have all of the expertise to solve the issue, but the issue is there, like it or not.

I also think it would go a long way toward solving many of the nerf cries by CCP issuing some kind of policy statement (that should probably also be better explained during character creation) that explains in greater detail the expected role of a certain race's ships so people's expectations are better controlled. If they want Matar to be the best at X area of PVP, then they just need to say so. Otherwise, silly people like me expect some attempt at balance.

Just my opinion.

Its ok for Matar to be the best at some things. But right now, they are the best, or among the best, at a great many things. And to top it off (and IMHO this is the real reason above all) Matar ships have the best tank in the game - GTFO. The Matar line is really good, or reasonably passable at most roles in the game, while at the same time have the uber (isk-wise) ability to leave when they are overmatched. That is not the case for the vast majority of Amarr, Gallente and not-Drakes. Really - I think this is the real reason so many people fly them (and the ever-present drake) - you have far less risk of losing your ship.