Tech II Ammo

I did some comparison between the tech II ammo types and found that one hybrid ammo type did indeed need some work. I also found that the other turret types had some very underwhelming ammo. Rather than limit myself to only boosting the hybrid ammo, I will also be making some changes to other tech II ammo types. Javelin is quite obviously underpowered. The correlating laser and projectile ammo, Gleam and Quake, are equally underwhelming and they all need some change. Additionally, Hail sticks out as terribly underpowered.

Javelin (all sizes): Removed cap penalty
Javelin, Gleam and Quake (all sizes): Removed tracking speed penalty, added 25% tracking speed bonus
Hail (all sizes): Removed falloff penalty

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3012



Hail is terribly underpowered? Its falloff bonus is removed? Winmatar's effective range is pretty much all falloff. Now they'll do more damage than EMP/Fusion/Phased Plasma with the same range, and +25% tracking....

And the Blasters will still be stuck with void with the same -50% falloff modifier that they just removed from Hail.

Meanwhile, null is stuck with the lowest range boost of any of the T2 range boosting ammo (for the short ranged variant of eahc weapon type).
Gallente still won't be able to catch Winmatar to get within blaster range. If they do, T2 autos will spit out much more DPS due to hail doing much better applied DPS.
Caldari rails will be buffed though, yay for only 2 viable races.
Drakes and Canes may become Drakes, Feroxs and Canes.
Woot!

They reinstated the falloff penalty, but at a reduced value (-25%).

So its still a WInmatar buff.

stop calling them winmatar. Thats just damn childish.

'HURR I R BETTER DAN U CUZ I FLY RUST LOLOLOLOL'

Nice job completely missing the point, idiot.
The term "Winmatar" refers to how hilariously OP the race as a whole is.

Still, great stuff, yet another buff to the best weapon system in the game. I guess CCP just couldn't have a hybrid buff without giving the projectile packing pwnmobiles some extra love.

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3012



Hail is terribly underpowered? Its falloff bonus is removed? Winmatar's effective range is pretty much all falloff. Now they'll do more damage than EMP/Fusion/Phased Plasma with the same range, and +25% tracking....

And the Blasters will still be stuck with void with the same -50% falloff modifier that they just removed from Hail.

Meanwhile, null is stuck with the lowest range boost of any of the T2 range boosting ammo (for the short ranged variant of eahc weapon type).
Gallente still won't be able to catch Winmatar to get within blaster range. If they do, T2 autos will spit out much more DPS due to hail doing much better applied DPS.
Caldari rails will be buffed though, yay for only 2 viable races.
Drakes and Canes may become Drakes, Feroxs and Canes.
Woot!

Winmatar.

People have correctly pointed out the cluelessness and idiocy of your original post - and many other posts that you've made.

is good in areas, bad in others - its just the way the game ... should be.

...

How to fit a brawling Minmatar ship:
1. Fit largest autocannons
2. If applicable, fit correctly sized neuts
3. Fit oversize/extra plates
4. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:gyrostabs you feel like
5. Fit MWD
6. Fit all those mids with whatever you want. Webs, cap boosters, sebos, anything
You now have absurd dps, speed, tank and utility.
7. Winmatar at all PVP

How to fit armour anything else:
1. Fit largest guns
2. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
3. Realise you can't fit a tank with your guns
4. Move the guns down a size
5. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
6. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:damage mods you feel like
7. Fit MWD
8. Realise that MWD gets you over the powergrid
9. Move a gun down another size or reduce the size of a plate
10. Fit warp disruptor
11. Realise you're over CPU. Make warp disruptor meta
12. Fit cap booster.
13. Realise you're over powergrid. Downsize the cap booster.
14. Realise you were over CPU as well. Make the DCU meta and replace an EANM with adaptive nano plating
You now have an extremely tight fit, with less dps, tank, speed and utility than a Minmatar counterpart
15. Die terribly for not flying Winmatar.

Poster above me is right.

I have only flow Gallente my whole career. I just recently trained up for rifter/rupture/hurricane. The fitting diferences are just stupid. Utility slots galore. The GTFO ability is insane.

When I undock in my Gal ships, I expect to get popped. That is the price of playing in scram range 100% of the time. The risk factor of losing your ship, as a Minmatar is vastly reduced. They have the best tank that exists in the game - GTFO. Plus a great weapon system and the top speed. The weapon system alone is a perfect example. The very fact that ALL FOUR RACES have ship(s) that regularly fit ACs should be enough to tell you something is at issue. You can deny it all you want, but that is the truth.

That being said - I dont want them nerfed if it can be helped. I think they are pretty close to Amarr as far as balance. Gallente, and to some extent Caldari (excluding Draek) need to be brought up to a comparable level.

Just my opinion.

The very fact that ALL FOUR RACES have ship(s) that regularly fit ACs should be enough to tell you something is at issue. You can deny it all you want, but that is the truth.

How to fit a brawling Minmatar ship:
1. Fit largest autocannons
2. If applicable, fit correctly sized neuts
3. Fit oversize/extra plates
4. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:gyrostabs you feel like
5. Fit MWD
6. Fit all those mids with whatever you want. Webs, cap boosters, sebos, anything
You now have absurd dps, speed, tank and utility.
7. Winmatar at all PVP

How to fit armour anything else:
1. Fit largest guns
2. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
3. Realise you can't fit a tank with your guns
4. Move the guns down a size
5. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
6. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:damage mods you feel like
7. Fit MWD
8. Realise that MWD gets you over the powergrid
9. Move a gun down another size or reduce the size of a plate
10. Fit warp disruptor
11. Realise you're over CPU. Make warp disruptor meta
12. Fit cap booster.
13. Realise you're over powergrid. Downsize the cap booster.
14. Realise you were over CPU as well. Make the DCU meta and replace an EANM with adaptive nano plating
You now have an extremely tight fit, with less dps, tank, speed and utility than a Minmatar counterpart
15. Die terribly for not flying Winmatar.

Not an excellent post.

Mfume Apocal still fails ... is your op rusty ships dont give confidence anymore?:( poor matard

You're comparing tier 2 and tier 3 battleships.
Try comparing the Apoc and Tempest, instead.

Being fast = dictating engagement range = Win

Plus their weapon systems track better with base stats, and have ammo that can give tracking boosts, and many of their ships have tracking bonuses.

Plus they just plain take less damage due to small sigs. If you do more damage, but then miss or lose a lot of it due to firing at a small sig radius target, then your actual DPS isn't nearly as good as the paper DPS.

Winmatar win because they can hit you when you can't hit back.

Either you can't track them, or you can't get within range while they continue to do damage to you (even if they are not doing all that much due to falloff).

Then figure that they are going to select their damage type, and go against your weakest resist. Your laser/hybrid may have started with more DPS, but does that still hold true when resistances are taken into account?
Likely not. Then when tracking/range and sig are taken into account, your poor hit chance/quality just hands the win to the Winmatar.

Why would I ever fit a shipwith RANGE BONUS but no DAMAGE BONUS for BRAWLING???

Why would I ever fit a shipwith RANGE BONUS but no DAMAGE BONUS for BRAWLING???

Like I said, I dont want any nerfs, just a rebalance of the other races.

But you forgot to list a few things in your fits:
1. The Abaddon gets armor resist bonus and the Pest has almost as much EHP.
2. The Pest has 2 neuts and dual webs
3. And most imporant, speed is 861 v. 689. I'll let you guess which is higher. ;)

Like I said, I dont want any nerfs, just a rebalance of the other races.

But you forgot to list a few things in your fits:
1. The Abaddon gets armor resist bonus and the Pest has almost as much EHP.
2. The Pest has 2 neuts and dual webs
3. And most imporant, speed is 861 v. 689. I'll let you guess which is higher. ;)

It's almost as if we should be looking at balancing ships instead of races?!

How to fit a brawling Minmatar ship:
1. Fit largest autocannons
2. If applicable, fit correctly sized neuts
3. Fit oversize/extra plates
4. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:gyrostabs you feel like
5. Fit MWD
6. Fit all those mids with whatever you want. Webs, cap boosters, sebos, anything
You now have absurd dps, speed, tank and utility.
7. Winmatar at all PVP

How to fit armour anything else:
1. Fit largest guns
2. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
3. Realise you can't fit a tank with your guns
4. Move the guns down a size
5. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
6. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:damage mods you feel like
7. Fit MWD
8. Realise that MWD gets you over the powergrid
9. Move a gun down another size or reduce the size of a plate
10. Fit warp disruptor
11. Realise you're over CPU. Make warp disruptor meta
12. Fit cap booster.
13. Realise you're over powergrid. Downsize the cap booster.
14. Realise you were over CPU as well. Make the DCU meta and replace an EANM with adaptive nano plating
You now have an extremely tight fit, with less dps, tank, speed and utility than a Minmatar counterpart
15. Die terribly for not flying Winmatar.

I see the problem now. You're arguing with numbers, but not actually providing any, you know, NUMBERS to back it up. Let me show you an example of how we argue while using actual proof to back our claims:
Zealot versus vaga:
For the zealot we'll use the fist fit, swapping the tc/sebo for a web and a WD:
For the vaga, we'll go with the standard 2 LSE 2 damage mods + DC II (the other slots are largely irrelevant since we're not looking at speed or range, this is just a brawling fit)
Raw numbers:
Zealot has 500 DPS with 56k EHP
Vaga has 530 with 29k EHP
After resists on opposing ship are factored in:
Vaga deals 135 DPS with RFPP
Zealot deals 130 with INMF
Meaning:
Zealot takes 223 seconds to kill a vaga
Vaga takes 437 seconds to kill a zealot

500DPS Vaga?

LOL not even overheated, and even then its only 445 DPS from 3km and NO ONE in their right mind is going to willing walk a Vagabond in that close......ever.

Compare your numbers from 23k where you can reasonably expect to find a non-moronic vaga pilot.

Every race is balanced, some are just more balanced than others. Why don't you try flying minmatar before you complain.

I do
-

Being fast = dictating engagement range = Win

You do realize there are counters to that right ?
You do realize Eve's not a 1v1 game right ?

What exactly are you whining about ?

If you're not happy about them dictating engagement range, then how about you fit your ship to counter that ?

You do realize there are counters to that right ?

How to fit a brawling Minmatar ship:
1. Fit largest autocannons
2. If applicable, fit correctly sized neuts
3. Fit oversize/extra plates
4. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:gyrostabs you feel like
5. Fit MWD
6. Fit all those mids with whatever you want. Webs, cap boosters, sebos, anything
You now have absurd dps, speed, tank and utility.
7. Winmatar at all PVP

How to fit armour anything else:
1. Fit largest guns
2. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
3. Realise you can't fit a tank with your guns
4. Move the guns down a size
5. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
6. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:damage mods you feel like
7. Fit MWD
8. Realise that MWD gets you over the powergrid
9. Move a gun down another size or reduce the size of a plate
10. Fit warp disruptor
11. Realise you're over CPU. Make warp disruptor meta
12. Fit cap booster.
13. Realise you're over powergrid. Downsize the cap booster.
14. Realise you were over CPU as well. Make the DCU meta and replace an EANM with adaptive nano plating
You now have an extremely tight fit, with less dps, tank, speed and utility than a Minmatar counterpart
15. Die terribly for not flying Winmatar.

Gratz, you have found the holy grail and discovered the meaning of Eve. Care to enlighten the rest of us?

Jeez...

1-¦) Being fast
Fight fire with fire, use Huggins/Rapiers. If you have a bottomless wallet, slap faction webs to your fits.
Decent alternative/addition would be Lachesis/Arazu with Dampeners w/ Locking range scripts and/or warp scramblers.

2-¦) Dictating engagement range
Add some Pilgrims/Curses to your fleet / Have your support to fit Tracking Disruptors w/ Optimal Range disruption scripts.

Either they are bold and try to engage, then die,
either they warp off and you live.

If I rephrase for you:

"Unless you are also flying Minmatar ships, the best you can reasonably hope for is to chase the Minmatar ships off."

Your example is a perfect illustration of the problem. ;)

They reinstated the falloff penalty, but at a reduced value (-25%).

Patch notes for Crucible and the stats on SiSI both say otherwise. Penalty is removed in both instances.

CCP Tallest said one thing, CCP did something different.

If I rephrase for you:

"Unless you are also flying Minmatar ships, the best you can reasonably hope for is to chase the Minmatar ships off."

Your example is a perfect illustration of the problem. ;)

Let me ask you (and all the other anti-minmatar whiners) something:

What exactly do you want CCP to do about minmatar? They're already notably weaker than amarr ships at actually fighting, and pretty much regardless of any nerf they get to their combat stats they will be used in pvp (because again, people are obsessed with KB stats, and being able to pick your fights gives better stats than actually being good at fighting).

By your logic, force recons/stealth bombers are the most OP ships in the game, because nothing can catch them once they cloak.


Let me ask you (and all the other anti-minmatar whiners) something:

What exactly do you want CCP to do about minmatar? They're already notably weaker than amarr ships at actually fighting, and pretty much regardless of any nerf they get to their combat stats they will be used in pvp (because again, people are obsessed with KB stats, and being able to pick your fights gives better stats than actually being good at fighting).

If you reduce their speed, then you're losing the only real advantage they have (fitting difficulties are also irrelevant, because a minmatar ship with top tier mods is still worse at brawling than an amarr ship that had to make some sacrifices to get everything to fit). Without speed there is absolutely no reason to fly the vast majority of the minmatar ships, because once speed is taken out of the equation, amarr are provably better.(and nerfing minmatar speed would just have you whining about gallente, who are the next fastest race).

One race is going to be faster, short of CCP making all races have identical speeds. Said race will always have an advantage at picking engagements. A great way to balance this is by making the fastest ships have the least DPS and EHP. What's that? CCP already does this? Stop whining then.

As I believe I've said a number of times in this thread, I dont want Matar to be nerfed (nor Amarr). But the other races need some ship buffing/rebalancing.

Its ok for Matar to be the best at some things. But right now, they are the best, or among the best, at a great many things. And to top it off (and IMHO this is the real reason above all) Matar ships have the best tank in the game - GTFO. The Matar line is really good, or reasonably passable at most roles in the game, while at the same time have the uber (isk-wise) ability to leave when they are overmatched. That is not the case for the vast majority of Amarr, Gallente and not-Drakes. Really - I think this is the real reason so many people fly them (and the ever-present drake) - you have far less risk of losing your ship.

The other problem is that unlike many other MMO, you cant just re-spec overnight if you want to change roles. It is often a month long process or more + the lost opportunity cost of training something else that you need more.

Again - I dont favor nerfs. I favor buffs to balance. I dont claim to have all of the expertise to solve the issue, but the issue is there, like it or not.

I also think it would go a long way toward solving many of the nerf cries by CCP issuing some kind of policy statement (that should probably also be better explained during character creation) that explains in greater detail the expected role of a certain race's ships so people's expectations are better controlled. If they want Matar to be the best at X area of PVP, then they just need to say so. Otherwise, silly people like me expect some attempt at balance.

Just my opinion.

Its ok for Matar to be the best at some things. But right now, they are the best, or among the best, at a great many things. And to top it off (and IMHO this is the real reason above all) Matar ships have the best tank in the game - GTFO. The Matar line is really good, or reasonably passable at most roles in the game, while at the same time have the uber (isk-wise) ability to leave when they are overmatched. That is not the case for the vast majority of Amarr, Gallente and not-Drakes. Really - I think this is the real reason so many people fly them (and the ever-present drake) - you have far less risk of losing your ship.

I just switched from Amarr to Minmatar and holy turd it's like day and night.

I have the grid to fit a full rack of weapons.
Unlike Amarr, I don't cap out in 1 minute 37 despite having trained cap skills to 4 and 5. I have a hard time finding modules to use my cap with.
I have sick tracking and more DPS.
Okay, so optimal is 1 km instead of 5. Big deal when I move at 700 m/s with my perma-afterburner.
I have a destroyer that's actually good even pre-buff.
I have midslots!
I can outright nuke people with grouped artillery fire.

The only downside is actually requiring ammo, but like all monetary barriers, it's not a real downside if you outperform everything else.

(Amarr are therefore superior at PVE where ammo cost has to be factored in)

Yes I am aware of the patch. I am encouraged. (I actually bought fittings for a couple of 200mm Rail Thorax just for kicks - they will create LOL lossmails, but I want to test the tracking of them at disruptor range). I think they should do nothing to any other races until this patch shakes out and we see how it goes. Too many changes at once can hide real issues.

If I said Amarr need general buffing, I didnt mean to. I thought I said they were balanced with Matar. They Amarr (and everyone else) do need some individual ship-rebalances though.

EDIT: And Liang, I agree with you. Baby steps are best.

Ha ha ha! Welcome brother. Welcome to winning and easy mode. I to saw the light not to long ago. May you out run all your opponents, may your opponents cap hinder their performance, may your mid-slots be numerous and may your auto-cannons strike true... The majority of the time = )

Amen!

-In rust we trust

The only minmatar ship I can think of better at actually fighting than its amarrian counterpart is the cane.

Rupture ~This one I might actually agree with, but then it's a t1 cruiser, so I CBA to even run the numbers on it.
Vagabond ~Go read my post on page 2. The zealot CREAMS the vaga.
Machariel --> ~Not a valid comparison, and even if it were, the angel ships are better at picking targets, the sansha ones will actually fight better once the battle starts. Working as intended.
Dramiel --> ~Is getting nerfed in the next patch.
Cynabal --> ~Again, look at the zealot.
Wolf ~The retri is a terrible AF, due to its lack of a second midslot. It would still anihilate a wolf in a fight.
Rifter ~Again, in a fight between the 2, the amarrian ship would win every time. Brick tanks and frigates don't go well together in the metagame, which is the only reason you see so many rifters running around.
Stabber ~Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, no.
Sleipnir ~At best iffy, I'd say the abso is better though, because active tanking tends to be a bad idea in pvp and a buffer fit sleip is VASTLY inferior to an abso.
Cyclone ~Is shite, and so is its amarrian counterpart.
Trasher ~Reserving this space for after I've fiddled with the amarr dessy on sisi
Jaguar~ Has 20% less EHP and DPS than the retri.
sabre ~This one maybe. Post some numbers to back it up and you may have an example of an imbalanced ship.
Munnin ~Zealot is better.

Stabber

Matar ships eighter have to loose their speed advantage or have real drawbacks in other fields like dps or tank or something ,but currently they dont have any disadvantages at all , pls show me what disadvantages matar has , you wont be able to find any meaningfull I'm sure of it.
+ add that matar has the most advantages too , I dont want to list it as it was done many times.

So pls step out the 1v1 no disengage situation ,which never happens and try to use actual situations.
Like many vs few, where if matar is the many im pretty sure they can win the fight easily , or if they are the few they can just run away. Basically matar wins or it is a draw.

Way to contradict yourself in in four lines or less over hatorade

NOT ONE of the ship you listed is even in the ballpark of winning a nose to nose with it amarrian counterpart (OK Ruture, but who gives a **** its a T1 cruiser and maybe the dictor) without a specific counter fit.

Seriously, show me on the doll where the bad tribesmen touched you.

...

Sleipnir ~At best iffy, I'd say the abso is better though, because active tanking tends to be a bad idea in pvp and a buffer fit sleip is VASTLY inferior to an abso.

Would you agree that the Hurricane is the epitome of Minmatar being OP? If not, which ship would you say is - the Vaga maybe? Please don't bring up useless ship classes like AFs, Destroyers, or T1 frigs - being the least sucky ship of all the sucky ships isn't terribly useful.

-Liang

Would you agree that the Hurricane is the epitome of Minmatar being OP? If not, which ship would you say is - the Vaga maybe? Please don't bring up useless ship classes like AFs, Destroyers, or T1 frigs - being the least sucky ship of all the sucky ships isn't terribly useful.

-Liang

Every time we do a big release, it should contain changes like the ones weGÇÖve just put in. If we do put out a major release without balancing changes, it probably means that CCP Tallest and/or Ytterbium have been eaten by bears. That would be bad, but the reality is that there are very few things you can do to prevent a bear from killing you. According to what IGÇÖve read online, playing dead isnGÇÖt necessarily the correct strategy and while there are a lot of great tips, I guess your best odds really comes from not being around bears.

You are suffering the same matar syndrome as many other pilots , that you think 1v1 where nobody wants to warp out or disengage is somehow the basic for balance.

Saying that jaguar/wolf isnt better than the retri ,cause retri has better tank/ehp says all. It cant even tackle them so how could it kill them,other than use your no warp out not disengage balance syndrome?
Competitive pvp is about forcing the enemy to "fight" when you have the upper hand and run when not. And this is what matar does the best by far ,also matar is the best to avoid this.

It doesnt matter if one race is better at "actually fighting"(whatever that means to you) if they cant force the enemy to fight. It would just end in enemy to run away. Picking your fights is part of the actual fight it is its start, you simply cant just negate this.
Btw ,how the hell could you negate the speed /signature advantage in actual fight, that is just silly , as speed is as important as dps or tank.

Matar ships eighter have to loose their speed advantage or have real drawbacks in other fields like dps or tank or something ,but currently they dont have any disadvantages at all , pls show me what disadvantages matar has , you wont be able to find any meaningfull I'm sure of it.
+ add that matar has the most advantages too , I dont want to list it as it was done many times.

So pls step out the 1v1 no disengage situation ,which never happens and try to use actual situations.
Like many vs few, where if matar is the many im pretty sure they can win the fight easily , or if they are the few they can just run away. Basically matar wins or it is a draw.

How to fit a brawling Minmatar ship:
1. Fit largest autocannons
2. If applicable, fit correctly sized neuts
3. Fit oversize/extra plates
4. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:gyrostabs you feel like
5. Fit MWD
6. Fit all those mids with whatever you want. Webs, cap boosters, sebos, anything
You now have absurd dps, speed, tank and utility.
7. Winmatar at all PVP

How to fit armour anything else:
1. Fit largest guns
2. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
3. Realise you can't fit a tank with your guns
4. Move the guns down a size
5. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
6. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:damage mods you feel like
7. Fit MWD
8. Realise that MWD gets you over the powergrid
9. Move a gun down another size or reduce the size of a plate
10. Fit warp disruptor
11. Realise you're over CPU. Make warp disruptor meta
12. Fit cap booster.
13. Realise you're over powergrid. Downsize the cap booster.
14. Realise you were over CPU as well. Make the DCU meta and replace an EANM with adaptive nano plating
You now have an extremely tight fit, with less dps, tank, speed and utility than a Minmatar counterpart
15. Die terribly for not flying Winmatar.

This gets really ******* old because its just not true. Minmatar is good in areas, bad in others - its just the way the game is and always will be and always should be. It wouldn't take much of a meta game shift to push Minmatar into total ******* oblivion even without changing any attributes on any ship.

People have correctly pointed out the cluelessness and idiocy of your original post - and many other posts that you've made. Maybe you should start by being a bit more reasonable in your posts rather than demanding "Winmatar" nerfs when they aren't really deserved.

-Liang

I love my rust buckets. :)

Get Webbed - MWD.

Get Scrammed - MWD.

It's great. Rust buckets are notoriously hard to hold for long.

Angel Pirate Invasion - 7 min for full cleanup.
Angel Extravaganza - 14 min for blitz.

Mach. Time counted from 1st to the last shot.

Thnx CCP for new hail.

PS minmatar wanna more such "hybrid boosts".

More or less this...

- Boost Caldari and Gallente battleships
- Nerf the Hurricane
- Nerf the Drake
- Boost most HACs
- Nerf the Cynabal and Dramiel (again)
- Boost non-Thrasher Destroyers (again)
- Boost all T1 cruisers

Alright - that's not very interesting in the sense of the "WINMATAR MUST BE NERFED TOMORROW" conversation that's brewing. I'm not sold on nerfing the Cane and Drake, because the Binger is already so close behind them. It wouldn't take a whole lot to make it simply obsolete them both.

Also: Caldari fleet BS = Scorpion (IMO).

-Liang

Ok Forum ate my post so here is the short version so I can go to sleep.

Remove High Slot from Drake, Cane, Harbinger. Remove Weapon Hardpoint from Drake and Harbinger. Give 7.5-10% Opt Bonus to Harbinger replacing Cap Bonus. Replace Cane Rof Bonus with Opt / Falloff / Tracking Bonus. Cut Heavy Missile Flight Time so Heavies work out to 50-60 Km. Leave current Myrm in as is.

Alright - that's not very interesting in the sense of the "WINMATAR MUST BE NERFED TOMORROW" conversation that's brewing. I'm not sold on nerfing the Cane and Drake, because the Binger is already so close behind them. It wouldn't take a whole lot to make it simply obsolete them both.

Also: Caldari fleet BS = Scorpion (IMO).

-Liang

Ok Forum ate my post so here is the short version so I can go to sleep.

Remove High Slot from Drake, Cane, Harbinger. Remove Weapon Hardpoint from Drake and Harbinger. Give 7.5-10% Opt Bonus to Harbinger replacing Cap Bonus. Replace Cane Rof Bonus with Opt / Falloff / Tracking Bonus. Cut Heavy Missile Flight Time so Heavies work out to 50-60 Km. Leave current Myrm in as is.

That along with a targeted buff to Cruisers ability to preform unique and useful roles through fitting, slot, bonus tweaking might bring more balance to the field.

As for the Scorp I agree it makes a great Fleet Support Battleship. It doesn't make a good Battleship to base your fleet around though. The Maelstrom / Abbadon and to a lesser extent the Geddon / Tempest are good candidates to build fleets around. One of those Center of the fleet types for Cal / Gal would be a preferable solution then trying to nerf the front runners. Especially if the Gal armor one and Cal Shield one can ride shotgun in the current Armor Amarr / Shield Min Gangs without being looked down on.

BTW: I would rather see the other Pirate Cruisers / Frigs be a bit more useful than an Angel Nerf.

ouch, you pretty much messed up.

Do you remember for the amarr buff back than some years ago, when they lowered EM resists due some stupid reasons
(oh no lasers hit the highest resist or something bs) ?
They also lowered explo resists ,and resulted in an over the top matar buff.
Same stealth matar boost just like now. For some reason CCP just cant let opmatar to go.
It is rly said.

Do you remember for the amarr buff back than some years ago, when they lowered EM resists due some stupid reasons
(oh no lasers hit the highest resist or something bs) ?
They also lowered explo resists ,and resulted in an over the top matar buff.
Same stealth matar boost just like now. For some reason CCP just cant let opmatar to go.
It is rly said.

Looks like thinking isnt in the matar op set.
The patch made projectiles to hit harder--> matar buff no matter how you try to hide it ,it was a matar buff after all.
It boosted emp ammo too, what most matar used for close range.

9% !> 33%

and since when does any Matar with a brain go "close range" on an Amarr ship.....getting scrammed is a pretty sure way to go home in pod. Unless you are referring to one of the rare armor canes, in which case I'm STILL not going to be hitting an armor tanked Amarri ship with ******* EMP because that is just ******* stupid

...and if you are kiting you are using barrage which is lower damage than faction EMP and hitting your strongest resist.


Make up you mind, you ceasing to even be coherent any longer.

Oh, so you basically don't want battlecruisers to be useful?

-Liang

You REALLY want canes that can hit to lock with Barrage and will still outrun you?

Think about that.

And why would that not make Battlecruisers useful.

Are 6 Weapons with 1 Damage Bonus not enough. Would people stop using Heavy Missiles because they go to 60. What about this will kill Battlecruisers.

5% falloff bonus, show me the fit that hits that far.

I'm not saying I'm better than you.

Its criticism (in sarcastic form) of CCPs poor balance.

With barrage and three TEs (may as well since you are fist ******* DPS) 3455+44.1 hurri only locks to 56km

That is on a current cyclone that has (shocker) a 5% falloff bonus.

...and I'll STILL outrun a Harbi

So what changes other than a Amarr fanboi is appeased.

Read previous posts, the tracking bonus mixup was already pointed out (twice before you) and I already acknowledged the mistake (before you posted).

Putting the falloff penalty back in, but at 25% instead of the previous 50%, while Void retains the 50% penalty, is a buff to projectiles, plain and simple.

Hybrid T2 ammo just got more inferior relative to projectile T2 ammo.

The short range autocannon ammo has a 0.75 falloff modifier, the short range blaster ammo has a 0.5 fall off modifier
Win for Winmatar.

The long range autocannon ammo has a 1.5 falloff modifier, the long range blaster ammo has a 1.25 falloff modifier
Win for Winmatar.

Also would like to point out that hybrids are not projectiles. It sounds like you want hybrids to be projectile turrets.

I'll agree that minmatar are able to apply more DPS than hybrids in some cases, but honestly if you can slow them down and start wailing on them, they will crumple.

matar doesnt have less tank than the others , every other race would crumple too

crumple yeah... and how does that differ from any other race? matar doesnt have less tank than the others , every other race would crumple too

crumple yeah... and how does that differ from any other race? matar doesnt have less tank than the others , every other race would crumple too

Cyclone has a falloff bonus now huh.

BTW the new 10% Opt Harbinger stats with Heavypulse would be able to hit that far to it's optimal range with 2 TC's. While a Cane hitting that far would be so far in it's falloff it's Damage would be a joke.

As for outrunning a Harbinger... It is Minmatar of course it will. The long optimal more then makes up for it.

Its damage would be a joke ANYWAY after you chop its bonuses seriously, 650mm pointless and now that you have yanked a high you are talking a 500DPS ship with perfect skills in optimal and optimal is UNDER 4km

In otherwords you want the Harbi to be the premier BC, and the hell with the other three races.P.S. There is nothing stopping the cane from mounting Arties and essentially nuking you from space.

OH but you have to be able to hit with a MEDIUM short range turret into LARGE long range territory......I mean what could possibly go wrong.

...As sorry about the cyclone, that was erroneous, I was actually looking at a x2 TR Vaga.....for reference x2 TEs Vaga hits 3810 + 47500 with 220s with 425s it hits for 4233+51826. x2 TE (more realistic) its optimal plus falloff is still something like 48.

Are you using a speadsheet for this sillyness? This is your idea of balance?

650mm Optimal is not under 4km and you fit 720mm Artillery on a Cane always.
Always.

So the Harbinger would be overpowered but the Cane you were complaining about being underpowered would beat it... Ok there champ.

Absolutely nothing. Since you will still do less DPS then the Drake at that Range without the tank. It will however be instant Dmg and you can switch to MF dmg Crystals up close.

Vega has twice the Falloff Bonus that was proposed so your still using the wrong ship.

Are you using a speadsheet for this sillyness? This is your idea of balance?

Whatever, I can fit both I prefer 650s, YOU may fit 720s "always" but for the type of fighting I often to 650s are better all around, they are right in sweet sport of long point, you can actually hit something with the MWD below 35k AND it lets you fit a better tank.....on a ship that is ALWAYS going to thin in sheild trim.

...and don't bother BCing it, I've never lost one, despite 20 some odd kills.

Not to mention, no kidding atrilery has more than a 4km optimal...I was talking optimal DPS after you cut the ROF bonus and nerf the ship 30% overall. Go back to your spread sheet and show me a 500 DPS arty fit, you aren't getting there without some fairly exotic hardwires AND 650s AND HAMs along with perfect skills....and you are still going to need to overheat.

You play your spreadsheets, I play the game.





After you chop DPS and make it so the options for a shield cane and alpha or leave the field because you harbi is hitting 60km with SHORT RANGE TURRETS

Spare me

What is "going to beat it" a single neut Armor cane? That MAY get to 350DPS





.......jeee that wouldn't sort of make my point.


[quote=Alara IonStorm]
Vega has twice the Falloff Bonus that was proposed so your still using the wrong ship.

Go back to your spread sheet and show me a 500 DPS arty fit,

After you chop DPS and make it so the options for a shield cane and alpha or leave the field because you harbi is hitting 60km with SHORT RANGE TURRETS

Spare me

What is "going to beat it" a single neut Armor cane? That MAY get to 350DPS

None of the T1s HAVE a falloff bonus, you get ROF and damage.....its our flavor.

Either way it makes my point.

"It'll still win", whch is horseshit, if a shield cane is beating you in an armor Harbi solo your are doing it wrong. I intentially avoid them because a decent point will chase me off the field or draw it out until I screw up. Three times I've JUST managed to escape by virtue of suddely ECM drones when I've tried it.

But again, I want to hear how making a Harbi fire to lock inside optimal is in ANY way balanced.

C'mon, lets here something other than my numbers are wrong.

What you've said thus far.
Drake can hit my Harbi further than it can hit back ...nerf HML range 15%
Cane can do more damage in optimal than my Harbi ....nerf it 30%
Myrm isn't a threat ....it's fine

.....oh and my Harbi should hit to lock with pulses

LOL I'm contradicting myself.

Love watching the damage control crew - same faces, same arguments, and same deflection instantly to Amarr.

Love watching the damage control crew - same faces, same arguments, and same deflection instantly to Amarr.

Would limiting damage types available to minmatar to kin/exp be a reasonable balancing option ?

For reference, I'm a fairly new player still learning game mechanics but exclusively minmatar.

Would limiting damage types available to minmatar to kin/exp be a reasonable balancing option ?

For reference, I'm a fairly new player still learning game mechanics but exclusively minmatar.

No because it should not exist.

We were talking about a Hurricane.... obviously the fact that Tornadoe's 5% falloff bonus only applies to BATTLESHIP SIZED TURRETS would make that a) an outlier, and b) a **** poor comparsion to a Hurricane that mounts MEDIUM guns now would it.

My mistake I wasn't in la la land, I asked where the ship you modeled you numbers was.....

[quote=Alara IonStorm]
That Armor Cane would get 440 DPS with 425mm with RF Ammo(which it could fit now) not counting Drones. As for one Neut sure two is to much for it and should be nerfed.

As for comparing it cut the Trajectory Analysis off of a Vega or Cyn to get the correct number. I can not believe I have to spoon feed you this.

"It'll still win", whch is horseshit, if a shield cane is beating you in an armor Harbi solo your are doing it wrong. I intentially avoid them because a decent point will chase me off the field or draw it out until I screw up. Three times I've JUST managed to escape by virtue of suddely ECM drones when I've tried it.

But again, I want to hear how making a Harbi fire to lock inside optimal is in ANY way balanced.

Fact you can disengage. That is Minmatars strength. You want them to be hard to catch and beat the slowpokes at the same time? Again can not hit to lock range that's twice now.

Your Lock is 62km, with the bonus and Heavy Pulse Scorch you could not hit that far. Why is it that you keep posting wrong numbers. I know you want to here something other then your numbers are wrong but they are again and they make up your argument.

Your right it doesn, that was the point.

We were talking about a Hurricane.... obviously the fact that Tornadoe's 5% falloff bonus only applies to BATTLESHIP SIZED TURRETS would make that a) an outlier, and b) a **** poor comparsion to a Hurricane that mounts MEDIUM guns now would it.

My mistake I wasn't in la la land, I asked where the ship you modeled you numbers was.....

Sorry I generally have better things to do than figuring out model ship bonus cominations that don't exist

LOL don't like counter fits do you?

For a shield cane, the idea is generally to stay the hell out of neut range and use the neuts for anti-tackle.......UNLESS of course its an Amarr ship, then you leg hump.

This is the idea of rock-paper-scissors, and seriously I douby highly your are going to get 425mm without the ROF bonus

Using ECM drones is a hurricane specific? Really? This is obviously call for a nerf.

It was your argument when you started talking about your idea of "balance"......or are you saying you didn't post that a page ago.

Counter fits are fine but the Cane should get 1 Neut. I don't see what fitting gun size has to do with an RoF Bonus but I am gonna take a wild stab and guess that you meant to say something else again but got it wrong.

Minmatar can disengage without ECM Drones based on speed alone how do you not get this. Your the only one talking bout ECM Drones.

I was right then and am now.

Perhaps I figure that there was some logic going on there, but you picked two words out of the sentence.....of COURSE I didn't use the Tornado to see what the ranges for a hurricane with a falloff bonus would be they use different size turrets.

Ok ROF=25% = 33% overall DPS Yes? So DO tell how after you cut a high slot and remove 30% DPS from the hull you are getting 440DPS with 6 guns and damage bonus........with 220mm ACs?

Again context.....maybe because I was talking about an ARMOR fit Hurri...just maybe?

...and even then, ANY ship faster than it's target "should" be able to disengage that is why speed is important.

nevermind you are worse than arguing with my mom.....

Is Alara an alt of Naomi? They both have this magnificent gift of not making any ******* sense.

Now, Alara, I know you think that the crap you're pouring on us is smart, logical and based on facts, but trust me, it's everything BUT that. Please go learn to make a point, take some phrasing lessons, maybe look up "debate" in a dictionary and then come back. As it is now, you're just embarrassing yourself to no end.

By fitting 425mm Auto's because the loss of the Neut frees up grid space.

You just want to keep your overpowered Cane as is.

Yes I know......I was being sarcastic

You just want to keep your overpowered Cane as is.

* Pointless Insults with no Backing. /Check
* No Information to back up your statement. /Check

You just Hat Tricked the Forum Fail Kiddo.

Just go back and try to read your previous posts here and in other nerdrage "NERF THEM NOW!!" threads. There is all the proof and backing in your own confused words and phrasing. Would be kind of a futile attempt though, didn't see many people incapable of making a point or having a debate to actually realize or ever accept how silly they are. That's exactly the reason these threads go great lengths, they keep posting thinking they are actually make sense and some people are naive enough to think that if they really try could make you, Naomi, Verity & co to actually see reason.

Fortunately, the Naga has come to blow Winmatar up.

[
The problem in general is Teir 2 Battlecruisers as whole. They completely obsolete the Cruiser Class and are just too good for there price.

[
A Targeted nerf to the top 2 would help with the issue as well a change to Cruiser Roles through fitting, bonuses and slot layout.

Bottom Line even with the missing Neut and Bonus Change the Hurricane will still be more then worth the price you pay for it.

[
Back on topic. Is she single?

Debatable, upping the price would be a more elegant solution....and not nearly as targeted.

Nope, my folks have been married for 35 years, sorry.

Hopefully, pls teach us how to do that. As it seems for close range tornado is just superior , and for long range aka 100km insta pop arties are better , if there would be long range sniping reinstituted thing could be different.
At least rail naga is useable , not the best but useable , have to test it out thou in real situations.

It would be a good way to handle it. That or changing Cruisers to be more Role based such as useful Logistics.

Really there is an issue and 1000 different ways to fix it. That was just my 2 Isk

Damn, but it is nice to see a Marriage work out in this day and age.

I think we pretty much argued all of the finer points of this one out. Sorry if I was a kind of a ****.

Fortunately, the Naga has come to blow Winmatar up.

Of course. Lasers are tangibly better in actually killing than projectiles. You've never even pretended otherwise other than to complain about how falloff sometimes matches your optimal. They also obsolete blasters by doing nearly as much DPS, at approximately four times the range, but sure let's nerf the one viable turret alternative because PIE Inc. is a bunch of crybaby RPers.

I think you'll find the reverse is also true, just how many times have you posted in these nerf minmatar threads?

So the answer to the Cane is Drake...

The problem in general is Teir 2 Battlecruisers as whole. They completely obsolete the Cruiser Class and are just too good for there price.

A Targeted nerf to the top 2 would help with the issue as well a change to Cruiser Roles through fitting, bonuses and slot layout.

Bottom Line even with the missing Neut and Bonus Change the Hurricane will still be more then worth the price you pay for it.

Not that many actually - maybe 10 or so in half a dozen threads on the issue. My last before the post that elicited this response was warning you folks that there is a clear distinction between pilots who actually fly amarr and minmatar and those who fly eft - and that those who actually fly the ships in combat know that you guys are full of hot air.

And so I was just chiming in to say that these kinds of posts will continue. . .and the dc crew will keep deflecting to Amarr - which is what I find so funny. Its fantastic strategy really. Any criticism of mini op-ness becomes a discussion on Amarr which is not what was intended by the OP, but that is what you make it.

anyway.

1) Fly amarr, then talk. You are living in EFT land with all your posts.
2) PIE pilots fly Amarr hulls, there is no restriction to using projectiles or any other weapon system.

lazers should be the best turret platform because Amarr are the gank and tank race. They trade midslots for lowslots, and those lowslots are used to either fit tank or gank or a combination of both. The suffer the most for fitting mwds due to the cap penalty, so mobility is not their strong suit (there are exceptions, but they remain exceptions), and basically thei entire ships is tungsten and lazer.

TEs don't work the same for everyone. . . they just don't. When you push falloff out on mini ships and raise the base optimal - you are doing a lot more to improve dps for ACs then any other weapon system. Again, when coupled with the wide range of falloff bonused ships (that are also high speed) the benefits of TEs on minmatar ships is evidently greater.

Now remember, Lazers are supposed to be the best turret system in the game because Amarr ships tend to have only turrets as their main damage source. Minmatar ships often sport multiple weapon systems because they are not specialized, and the blasters, while effective at close range, are not supposed to be the primary weapon system either.

Projectiles have too good a combination of range (falloff is pushed out using TEs, making TEs a direct damage mod - minis have 2 damage mods for ACs), damage in th form of damage type selection and the long duration of constant damage that can be applied from way out in falloff down to optimal, and tracking (TEs again) which ACs have the best in game.

1. 800s.
2. 2x hvy neuts
3. 2x 1600mm plates
4. DC, 2 EANMs, 1 gyro
5. Goddamn, I'm over PG, gotta downgrade something, lets go with the heavy neut.
6. Hvy cap injector, 2x web, point.

Final fit and stats:
[Tempest, Brawl fit as instructed]
Gyrostabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1

809 EFT DPS, 119K EHP (146K against IN MF).



1. MPLs
2. 1x 1600mm plate
3-5. Fits fine for me!
6. 1 DC2 + 2x EANM + passive exp hard.
7-14. Fits fine!
15. lol

Final stats and fit:
[Abaddon, Brawl fit as instructed]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactive Plating II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Warp Disruptor II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1

1025 DPS (including drones ofc), 141K EHP omni, 134K EHP against PP (lowest Minmatar relevant tank).

It's almost as if we should be looking at balancing ships instead of races?!

Lol! Another one. Honestly! Fock it! Nerf Minmatar so we can be done with these constant stream of threads. Why I even look on the forums still is beyond me.

I would like a boost to Caldari ships. Make them all Missile ships. Also, i'd like scorch to be boosted to. Amarr weapons use to much capacitor. Something needs to be done about cruise and siege missiles. The other good caldari battleships are the Scorpion and Rokh. One of which is a turret ship.

Why do 2 races that h8 each other still use the same weapon system? You know! I want more ships to. Maybe we should get rid of super caps and just use regular capitals.

I would like to expand the t1 destroyer class and have more cruisers. What happened to t3 frigates?

(I still never got an answer on which race isn't "gank and tank" btw)

Your point seems to be that because Amarr have poor mobility when armor tanked, they have should have the best DPS projection. Except Gallente also have mobility issues when double-plated and trimarked, but...?

The improved AC DPS gained from TEs is still worse than pulse lasers with no TEs/TCs aiding them. And yes, armor-tankers still have the option of fitting TCs, so I'm throwing them in here.

You completely ignoring that TCs are in the game. Amarr ships use them. I can't tell if you didn't know or were simply being dishonest when you implied that range and tracking bonus modules were AC/shield tanking only, but it's simply not true and never has been. Also: to get that range you complain about, you give up damage type selection.

Your point seems to be that because Amarr have poor mobility when armor tanked, they have should have the best DPS projection. Except Gallente also have mobility issues when double-plated and trimarked, but...?

My quote was what CCP said to the community when turrets were rebalanced a few years back. According to them, Amarr lazors, with their high fitting requirement, huge cap use, poor tracking, and limited damage type married to a platform that was usually a pure gunship should have the best guns - thats what they envision for Amarr: low utility, high dps (at medium range) and good tank - Amarr balance has always been about finding the right tradeoff for gank to tank - but a pure Amarr ganker (ala gankadon or the Abaddon) should be medium tank, massive dps. Minmatar ships have a completly different set of choises - the option for Mini is high tracking low damage ACs or massive alpha artis. The ships are inherently the same - they both require high speed and both have low tanks (although speed is tank but thats another point). See thats flavor, so when ACs are balanced to Lazers - then it breaks that. And thats why I find the comparison funny - because lazers never competed with blasters, ACs always did. The range to damage kiting game was always based on a dps curb for ACs vs. dps cliff for blasters. If the mini makes one mistake and get caught - they die. Its a nickle and dime combat style - so yah - of course projectiles should do less damage. If they don't then there is no competition - which is why I am saying that there is no reason to choice a blaster boat over an AC boat because ACs have been 'balanced' to lazers. . .

TE dps gain for minmatar ships is substantial when considering the range benifit and dps curb. There is simply no way to argue that TEs are not a direct dps mod for ACs. To add insult to injuy here - by pushing the range out, you are actually giving a short range wepon system that was designed to have some long range utility for kiting purposes real bite at longer ranges. Whats more, the TE bonus was changed not as a direct AC buff, but because it would counter the TD changes (which were changed to affect optimal and falloff) - the buff was mostly overlooked because this was before the second round of projectile buffs - which have brought that small change into clear focus. For Amarr, the change has minimal effect, but its a major reason blaster ships can't compete.

Other then a very specilized set of sniper setups for the Zelot and the BBs - I have never actually seen a good setup that uses TEs or TCs. TCs because mids are well. . .a rare thing. And TEs because a Heatsink is almost always a better option. This being eve of course, there are people who will fit anything to anything - but the gain from a TE on an Amarr ship is minimal - much better to use that slot for a hardener/plate (tank) or more HS (gank). A mini ship without a TE is petty much gimping themselves imo.

That being said - I dont want them nerfed if it can be helped. I think they are pretty close to Amarr as far as balance. Gallente, and to some extent Caldari (excluding Draek) need to be brought up to a comparable level.

Just my opinion.

Ruah Piskonit yep, matar should have lost his speed advantage when ac-s were buffed.
Just look at the tornado wtf is that 1660mps , that is faster than my nano cruisers... clearly unbalanced.

Whatever intent CCP had years ago has long been lost in today's EVE. Also, this narrative of Amarr ships being pure gunships is just untrue: a Geddon that gets roughly a quarter of it's max DPS from drones is no more a pure gunship than a Tempest that gets roughly 75% of it's max DPS from turrets. A Harbinger much the same story, it's 50m3 dronebay accounting for roughly the same ratio of total DPS as a Hurricane fitted with missiles and damage drones. If one wanted to be absurd, I could point that Abaddon has a launcher slot. The only Amarr gunship with a smaller dronebay than it's Minmatar equivalent I can think of off the top of my head is the Zealot.

The most common Amarr BS setup uses 2x TCs. I'm not sure how you missed Hellcats, given the specific fit and fleet comp is well over a year old now, but they are pretty much FOTM for seriousface fights because they can effectively reach well into medium ranges with around 600-800 DPS, good tracking (relative to their size) and sport around 180-300K EHP tank.

Being fast = dictating engagement range = Win

Plus their weapon systems track better with base stats, and have ammo that can give tracking boosts, and many of their ships have tracking bonuses.

Plus they just plain take less damage due to small sigs. If you do more damage, but then miss or lose a lot of it due to firing at a small sig radius target, then your actual DPS isn't nearly as good as the paper DPS.

Winmatar win because they can hit you when you can't hit back.

Either you can't track them, or you can't get within range while they continue to do damage to you (even if they are not doing all that much due to falloff).
And of course, you can't neut them to stop them from firing like ships using hybrids and lasers, so they often have more cap to spare even if they do have weak caps.

Then figure that they are going to select their damage type, and go against your weakest resist. Your laser/hybrid may have started with more DPS, but does that still hold true when resistances are taken into account?
Likely not. Then when tracking/range and sig are taken into account, your poor hit chance/quality just hands the win to the Winmatar.

The only race that can compete against those strengths is the Caldari missile boats. They also don't need cap to fire.
Their primary weapons systems have ridiculously long range (Heavy missiles are just way too long ranged, wtf is up with missile skills granting a 2.25x range increase, while gunnery skils only grant a 1.25x range increase), and transversal has no effect on them, so closing the distance has no effect on applied damage.
-Though pure speed does severely limit damage, as does small sig radii.

And of course, once you get into larger groups at moderate ranges, where ships get alphad, slow missiles fall out of favor, leaving Winmatar Winning Eve.

I'm so stupid!

Then that is what you should be arguing for in terms of balance imo. But my point still stands - if turrets are balanced - then the ships need to be too.

The key to the reason for lazors not competing with blasters is tracking. Getting 'under' the guns is to beat the tracking of pulse lazors. The medium range dps projection is only good at medium range because of tracking too - the two go hand and hand.

These setups fall under 'specilized' or 'spacific'. Amarr BBs have always been popular in fleet - high range, decent alpha, fantastic dps, good tank, and lag immuine (no reload). . .

So I take it you feel that Amarr are the best race in eve, but can you at least see where I (and others) am/are coming from?

You nerf minmatar, amarr become OP. THAT is why many of us are against the idea.

I think you nailed it on the head. Some people just want their Amarr to be top dog again. Personally, I would love to see Gallente or even Caldari as top dog for a bit. Anything but Amarr. They had it before Minmatar, they don't need it again this soon. This is Eve, FOTM cycles with expansions. :P

at least amarr is catcheable:P

Would it not make more sense to bring the surrounding systems in line with the so called OP ones, rather then removing parts of said system?

stop calling them winmatar. Thats just damn childish.

Then that is what you should be arguing for in terms of balance imo. But my point still stands - if turrets are balanced - then the ships need to be too. The key to the reason for lazors not competing with blasters is tracking. Getting 'under' the guns is to beat the tracking of pulse lazors.

These setups fall under 'specilized' or 'spacific'. Amarr BBs have always been popular in fleet - high range, decent alpha, fantastic dps, good tank, and lag immuine (no reload). . .

So I take it you feel that Amarr are the best race in eve, but can you at least see where I (and others) am/are coming from?

However, blanket nerfing the ENTIRE Minmatar lineup for the sake of a few superior ships (Machs, Cynabals, and Drams) is unnecessary.

Nerfing a Mach for the sake of Tracking Enhancers is unnecessary, too. I'd say that at least a half of its OP-factor goes to TEs.

I've only had issues with pulse tracking when trying to shoot a full shipclass lower than my turrets are meant for. I.e. frigs with HPLs or HACs with MPLs. If you've experienced something different it's probably because you fly frigs more than I do.



Specialized and specific? It's literally the most common Amarr BS fit out there.



Not the best race (too subjective), but their turrets already have a comfortable margin of superiority over other turrets already. I'd probably have more sympathy for the hull issues if Amarr didn't have their own hull advantages which made them hands-down better at seriousface fights.

Why should anybody listen to you? You dont even know what hail ammo does , and you fly matar ships...

Tracking enhancers affect lasers just as well as AC's. Tracking computers are even better, and most kiting minmatar ships don't have the free midslots to fit them.

No, they don't. Literally nothing has changed for lasers when TE's were given +30% falloff bonus. While AC got severely boosted.

Nice job completely missing the point, idiot.
The term "Winmatar" refers to how hilariously OP the race as a whole is.

Still, great stuff, yet another buff to the best weapon system in the game. I guess CCP just couldn't have a hybrid buff without giving the projectile packing pwnmobiles some extra love.

I'm sorry, but advocating for TEs being fine just results in you looking clueless.

Really? The stabber? /facepalm

On to a more serious note:
The Hybrid changes stand to change several of these rankings. For example the difference between the Rupture and Vexor/Thorax is actually fairly low and we may actually see them simply reverse positions as they did immediately after the projectile boost. The Thrasher may do the same - there's lots of heavy breathing on vent when people talk about 500 DPS Catalysts.

I think its amusing that you point out the Cyclone because in a lot of ways the Cyclone is already not the best Tier 1 BC. The Ferox is about as good at bait tanking while the Brutix is actually a better damage dealer (and getting better tonight). I won't be really surprised to hear that both of these ships have become much more popular at the given role than the Cyclone.

The Hurricane comparison is just ridiculous because the Harbinger and Drake are both better at straight up brawling. That's not to say that the Hurricane can't run away - because it can - but that doesn't make it better at really fighting. The same kind of thing goes for the Vaga and Muninn vs the Zealot. The Zealot is just better on the whole - as we might expect..

I don't mean to say that there aren't Minnie ships that are hands down the best - for example I would say that the Sleip, Claymore, and Sabre are the best. I'm also convinced that your concerns about the Mach and Cyanabal are somewhat well founded - though I don't personally believe its projectiles that push them over the top.

Anyway - if we see a Minnie/projectile nerf, we see it. I don't really have a horse in the race except requesting that we nerf the appropriate stats for the right reasons. :)

-Liang

Ed: Rereading Cambarus' post makes me realize you were theoretically just comparing Amarr and Minmatar. There are several Amarr ships which are just simply garbage - but none of them are really in positions of concern. For example, the Omen and Retribution are both terrible but it doesn't matter because nobody does anything with those ship classes anyway.