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Hamatitio
Caldari
Fate.
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.07 04:26:00 -
[31]
My big problem with stabs is that it does not really harm a persons setup.
Lets say there is a prearranged 1 v 1, 1 person with 2 stabs, and one person with a warp scrambler.
The person with the warp scrambler will either live, or die, he will not collect any loot, nor will he win anything. He is laying it all on the line. The person with the stabs is not risking anything, he either wins, or he lives. He cannot be killed in this instance.
Whether or not it gimps a setup is irrelevent, as the gimped setup can still live, whereas the opposite setup can die.
Re-reading that I kind of ramble but I'm much too lazy to fix it.
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I'm going through sigs fast these days. |
Liu Kaskakka
PAK
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Posted - 2006.09.07 05:04:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Shadowace Evi
i don't see how, sure they can run away but if they run that means they lost
Yeah, and then they come back and kill you, doh.
King Liu is RIGHT!!
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 05:54:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Derrys
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix
Not quite. You can warp at even 1m/s but the slow speed make it take forever for you to align.
Not quite.  Webbers don't affect maneuvering or acceleration. What happens is that, after you're webbed, it takes a while for your speed to drop down to its new level. In that time, you're going too fast to warp. Your speed needs to be within a certain range to warp, and right after you're webbed you're briefly out of that range.
not quite :-)
if you are aligned, you have to go at least 80% of max speed. if you are over that speed does not matter you warp anyway. I use this with a slow indy and AB.the indy takes longer to get up to speed than to align, so I pulse the AB and once it ends cycle and my max speed drops (I am still on ab speed so more then current max) I warp instantly in that moment.
Originally by: JP Beauregard
The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls.... 
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coldrieve
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Posted - 2006.09.07 16:34:00 -
[34]
if you really wanted to kill a ship with WCS fitted... you could bump it right?
when it's trying to align to warp
and saw some setups for ships with 2 or more scramblers.
so what a ship has WCS. fit more scramblers.
people say you fit WCS and you lose nothing.
i disagree
you lose a low slot...you lose the ability to fit a backup sensor, a sensor amplifier, a amor rep. or something.
those who talk about wcs, why dont they give up using disruptors and scrams.
:)
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tookar
Amarr
Krookid
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Posted - 2006.09.07 16:51:00 -
[35]
The worst thing is the fact that people can fit stabs on good combat ships and not really gimp their setup too much and simply avoid combat with the same class ships . Sniping bs gangs anyone????
This just makes it unfair on newer players and boring for everyone else imo . Nerf stabs on combat ships and allow warp to anything over 150k away :)
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Koth Krakenworth
Minmatar
S.A.S
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Posted - 2006.09.07 17:25:00 -
[36]
I don't see why a simple negative combat attribute on the wcs wouldn't solve the problem. And the effect doesn't even have to be that special in order to gimp your setup in a way to discourage people from using them. A simple scan res penalty (who needs to target when you're travelling anyways, and if you wanna be safer in a belt, just make it take some more time to lock the npcs) could do the trick. Or a more direct combat penatly, such as -10% grid and cpu per stab or something, that would really gimp your setup more then just losing a lowslot per stab.
Signature: Complete Image
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Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.07 17:35:00 -
[37]
There is nothing wrong with stabs at all. They provide no advantages that the attacking ship does not have double. The biggest complaint is "It allows them to warp away and come back to kill you." Well then, idiot, I suggest either you fit stabs to do the same or when they warp away to dock and recharge their shield you DO THE SAME THING! Honestly, stupidity is the only commodity that has an endless supply, you can quote me on that.
Let's review stabs:
Upsides:
You can warp away, IF you fit enough, and IF they don't bring more than one ship
You can PvP on your terms, only when you want to.
Downsides:
You lose a low slot and therefore it's alot harder to win a PvP engagement.
When you warp off the ganker gets super ticked off and next time comes back with 3 budies and you get toasted.
Notice, there is NO downside with the victim stabbing for the ganker.If the stabber beats you /cry more, you would have lost anyways. If they warp off and repair then come back and demolish you /cry more, you could have done the same thing while they were gone. If they have "too many stabs" /cry more, bring a friend or fit more scrams. The only way stabs would be overpowered would be if gankers couldn't fit them but suprise suprise in all of CCP's infinite wisdom they allowed EVERYONE in Eve to fit them, yes that includes you!
Now, do I see how irritating it is to get ganked by a stabbing snipe squad, yes but get real. If stabs didn't exist those 3 BSs would have toasted you anyways. Do I see how stabs lower the risk of mining in 0.0? Yes, on the other hand who in the heck would ever mine if they were guaranteed to die every time a pirate entered the system? It's not like a miner can fight back very well. If you're out to kill them fit 2 -2 scrams on your ship or bring a friend.
The only real downside I see is it does discourage 1v1 pirating. It greatly encourages people to bring 3 or 4 friends which takes alot of the skill out of pirating. However, should they be disallowed because of this? No. Do you honestly believe that if stabs were removed pirates would only solo-gank? No. I think the problem is people need to get real and understand that everything they hate would still occur. The 3 BS gank squad would turn into a 10 BS gank squad etc.
I have yet to see one valid argument for stabs being overpowered. If "the problem is that any good PvP ship can fit one and not gimp themselves" then I suggest you fit one yourself and even out the playing field.
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Tempest Tsai
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Posted - 2006.09.07 17:58:00 -
[38]
Inside the Mind of a Pirate/Ganker:
Anything that doesn't allow me to destroy anyone that I have the advantage over MUST be unfair.
Anything that's added that forces me to rethink my plan of ganking and improvise HAS to be unbalanced.
Everything is fine in the game until I lose.
Gankers are the same in every game out there.
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Worms Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.07 18:03:00 -
[39]
the problem is that people cant think tacticly. if you wear an enemy down and they have stabs and get away, they have still left the area meaning you win. problem is due to how EVE is played if the player has no killmail then the fight never happened. tacticly speaking a retreat is better then a kill as they could be out of the fight longer if they fall back to repair and regroup, where if they get popped and podded they are back at base where they probally have a new ship ready to roll.
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coldrieve
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Posted - 2006.09.07 18:18:00 -
[40]
yep
i've been saying the same thing
you dont have to kill the other ship to win...
if the ship runs you have a victory
last night i lost a raven in 0.0 to 4 gankers. i was just ratting trying to make some isk. lol
i had 2 stabs fitted and they got me still.
so i went to get another raven and when i bought it just for the hell of it i put on 5 x WCS. cuz we're at war atm.
thank heavens that i did... 2 jumps out 4 war targets attacked me. those WCS saved my shiny new raven. :)
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delta2zero
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Posted - 2006.09.07 18:24:00 -
[41]
Edited by: delta2zero on 07/09/2006 18:24:18
SOLUTION: add different stabs for each ship type.
small stabs for frigs, large stabs for bs etc.
have the build cost be fairly high.
2mil for frig
4mil for cruiser.
6mil for bs.
give the modual a durability stats which can not be repaired. ie 10 uses and then you scrap them (not recycle)
or
warpcore stabs could use charges which are expensive but dont take much space.
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Agnar Koladrov
Gallente
Hurricane Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.07 18:28:00 -
[42]
Only thing that stabs do in a 'negative' way is irritate people cause they can and or cannot get there 'thing'.
Then (1) the *****ing/flaming starts, then the irritations grown to an all time high and the two sides start to scream at eachother without actually hearing/wanting to hear other opinions.
Last be not least, (2) then we get a gazillion post on how 'that' can be changed or MUST be nerfed in ones personal experiance and we go back to (1).
Endless loop.
________________________________________________
Bring The Stabber in line with the other two versions. Add a 4th low! |
Antskyeeh
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:11:00 -
[43]
WCS in travel/flight setups are legit imo, after all the person made a sacrifice to put them in (cargo space, tank, whatever).
On a pvp ship things are different because it allows the user to get a "free roll of the dice". He/she engages the target and warps away at the first sign of danger, without penalty, and that is unfair to the opponent.
What I propose would be for new coding whereby if you activate an aggressive module (you know, the ones concord cares about) it would disable the protection you get from WCS for the duration of the aggro timer. This will on one hand allow WCS to be used for their intended purpose (permitting people to avoid non-consentual pvp) while making people having to face the consequences of willfully engaging someone else. No more free spins of the wheel of fortune!
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Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:20:00 -
[44]
Ok I only read the OP so someone may have said this but I don't really care.
Stabs are fine except when fitting them on PvP ships. Why you ask? Well picture it if everyone fit stabs on their ship. Combat would consist of fitting your ships with so much damage that you can kill what you attack instantly (fat chance with a BS/BC) or attacking with a large amount of ships at all times to get enough scramble points, or sacrificing many mid slots for numerous scramblers/disruptors just so you can again get enough points (think of the caldari/minmatar!).
Take into account, the Vagabond. The ship is damn nice theres no denying it, but the thing that makes it as fearsome as it is, is the fact that it can fit 2 stabs without gimping the setup. I always tell the people on my corp: "You can only survive a vagabond, not kill one.". Ok sure this isn't true, Vagabonds are quite killable since not everyone fits stabs on em and sometimes you can get web/enough points on them so they can't warp, but you see my point. If everyone fit stabs, PvP would consist of simply warping out when you take too much damage.
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:23:00 -
[45]
Can someone tell me what is wrong with combat ships fitting wcs so they can do guerilla-type strikes? Honestly?
Nerfing WCS = nerfing the small group pvpers fighting huge blob alliances.
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Heinrich Klaus
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:49:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Heinrich Klaus on 07/09/2006 19:53:23
double post
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Heinrich Klaus
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:53:00 -
[47]
Fitting stabs just makes your opponents need to either A) group up to gank you if they want enough scramble strength, or B) sacrifice needed midslots to fit more scramblers. In my opinion this dumbs down the game, and makes ganking more popular.
They take 30ish CPU and are put into lowslots (which are arguable the easiest slot to spare on most ships) and give you a HUGE advantage that is always on and functioning passively using no cap, and having no activation time. Unlike most lowslot modules (armor tanking modules aside) that use no cap, they have no stacking penalty or disadvantage of any kind added to your ship attributes.
They become very problematic as ships get larger and people have more slots to "waste". Although you gimp yourself fitting them, being able to run away from fights means you don't lose your ship. EVE is supposed to be a game with consequences, but for someone fitting stabs and fighting even odds, the majority of the time a "loss" has no consequence other than a repair bill and a bruised ego.
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Drusan
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:56:00 -
[48]
Maybe I'm just missing the point here but if someone is complaining that Stabs are wrong...
If the warp scrambled target successfully ECM's the scrambler, they get all the benefits of a Warp Stab AND stops incoming fire for a minute. If they are close in tacklers and the defender has a Burst equipped, even more so.
So, if someone wants to equip a stab, by all means do so. Wouldn't the ECM be a better choice that also has offensive system use? Stabs are hardly a guaranteed escape and reduce the combat options of the ship in question.
Anyone arguing that ships they attack should not have viable means of escape doesn't have a leg to stand on, and stabs seem no more or less viable than ECM systems.
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Heinrich Klaus
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:58:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Heinrich Klaus on 07/09/2006 20:00:54
ECM is chance based, has a countering module, and requires a midslot, by far a harder slot to take up as an "extra" on the majority of ships ingame. On top of that it requires capacitor, has a tougher fitting requirement, and must be activated. It also has specialized skills that need to be trained for full effectiveness. A single ECM will not save you in an engagement larger than 1v1, and most of the time, 2 or 3 won't either. On top of that it's a rare ship that could fit that many ecm (mostly caldari and a few minmatar).
Regardless, this is a post about WCS, not ECM; saying ECM unbalanced as well does not mean WCS are suddenly OK.
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Twisted Craze
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Posted - 2006.09.07 20:16:00 -
[50]
They are not overpowered. You can't tank well with stabs in your lowslots.
I prefer using none of them, I like using the map and instas far better.
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Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.07 20:20:00 -
[51]
Quote:
Maybe I'm just missing the point here but if someone is complaining that Stabs are wrong...
If the warp scrambled target successfully ECM's the scrambler, they get all the benefits of a Warp Stab AND stops incoming fire for a minute. If they are close in tacklers and the defender has a Burst equipped, even more so.
So, if someone wants to equip a stab, by all means do so. Wouldn't the ECM be a better choice that also has offensive system use? Stabs are hardly a guaranteed escape and reduce the combat options of the ship in question.
Anyone arguing that ships they attack should not have viable means of escape doesn't have a leg to stand on, and stabs seem no more or less viable than ECM systems.
Try not to use reason and logic here, remember this is a discussion. And by "discussion" we mean a good excuse for ticked off people to complain about WCS. Afterall the provide "a HUGE advantage to the person wearing them!!!!!111!!ONE" Honestly, what the heck is that advantage? The ability to run? OOOOoooooo BIG advantage there, the person is going to run away ahhhh!!!! Oh wait, that doesn't hurt you at all I forgot.
If anything the pirates should be GLAD the person ran from them. Every person that stays and fights is another chance for you to lose your ship.
The BIGGEST confusion here is simple logic. A implies B is NOT an if and only if argument! A implies B: WCS causes group ganking. Yes, this we can agree on. However, if WCS were removed that would NOT eliminate group ganking. See how it doesn't work both ways? The only thing that occurs now that would NOT occur without WCSs is people that run simply because they have more WCSs than you have jammers. If WCS were removed everyone would fit ECMs or they would dock the second you enter the system. Or, more probably, they would stop ratting solo in 0.0 and move to empire giving you guys less people to try and kill in the first place. Or when you jumped in to try and gank you would instead be met by a group or 3 BSs ratting and get killed yourself. If anything you should be thankful for WCS because they make people brave enough to become your targets. Without stabs everyone would be running empire missions and then where would you be?
I don't see how a discussion of stabs being "overpowered" can even exist. They don't give the person an advantage over you at all. To be overpowered they would have to help the person win a fight. All they do is allow them to escape. The last time I blew someone up and thought "Dang, good thing I had 3 stabs fitted or I never would have beat him" was um....oh yeah, never.
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Gift
Amarr
Loot
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Posted - 2006.09.07 21:09:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Gift on 07/09/2006 21:09:21
Originally by: Lazy8s
If anything the pirates should be GLAD the person ran from them. Every person that stays and fights is another chance for you to lose your ship.
Can I spend my "they ran away" credits in Jita? If not, you have no clue of what you're talkning about.
Pirates of Eve, Join channel "Pirate" Today!
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Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.07 21:41:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Lazy8s on 07/09/2006 21:45:58
Could you blow them up in jita because they knew that the second they went into lowsec a gatecamping pirate would target them and they would lose their ship? I have killed pirates that warped in on me ratting that I would have run from but I got caught with no stabs so I stayed and fought and blew them up. My point is without stabs alot of people would never go out of empire space therefore you would have no one to blow up or credits to get. Sure it ticks me off when a pirate jumps in on me, I lay down the smack and he warps out before I kill him but does that make stabs overpowered? No, if they helped him kill me that would make them overpowered. You may not like the fact that you can't kill anyone that you target but there is nothing overpowered about them running away.
My point, if you read the sentence again, is you can't spend your "I got blown up" credits in jita either. Pirating is risk vs reward like the rest of the game, just because you can scram them doesn't mean you would kill them does it? Every pirate assumes that they would have killed the ones that got away. Sometimes them stabbing may have saved your ship not theirs.
If they had no stabs they would rat in groups making it even harder for you to get killspam. Quit acting like getting rid of stabs instantly means you would get a bunch of kills and earn more money. Ridding eve of stabs could just as easily make killable ships even more rare because you would have to take them on in groups instead of solo like they are now.
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Gift
Amarr
Loot
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Posted - 2006.09.07 21:58:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Lazy8s
You may not like the fact that you can't kill anyone that you target but there is nothing overpowered about them running away.
I actually don't have a problem with stabs, never said I did. How I deal with people running away is putting on more scramblers or killing them really fast.
Originally by: Lazy8s
My point, if you read the sentence again, is you can't spend your "I got blown up" credits in jita either. Pirating is risk vs reward like the rest of the game, just because you can scram them doesn't mean you would kill them does it? Every pirate assumes that they would have killed the ones that got away. Sometimes them stabbing may have saved your ship not theirs.
As I am as much a pvp'er as a pirate, I welcome any fight that comes my way. If the whole of eve would grow a pair I can't see how that wouldn't benefit me.
Originally by: Lazy8s
If they had no stabs they would rat in groups making it even harder for you to get killspam.
I have no idea what "killspam" is, but i am pretty sure I don't do it.
Originally by: Lazy8s
Quit acting like getting rid of stabs instantly means you would get a bunch of kills and earn more money. Ridding eve of stabs could just as easily make killable ships even more rare because you would have to take them on in groups instead of solo like they are now.
are you still talking to me? I don't remember saying "word 1" about stabs. My statement was regarding your complete lack of understanding of my chosen profession, of which I still stand by.
Pirates of Eve, Join channel "Pirate" Today!
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Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.07 22:56:00 -
[55]
Sorry killmail is what it's called in this game I guess. Killspam is from my EQ and DAoC days. I should have formatted that post better. The rest was directed towards pirates in general, especially the ones that have posted so far really. I apoligize I misinterpreted your comments as being anti-stab. I'm also pretty sick so I apologize that I am comming off with a rough edge. That's not intentional.
I do empathize with pirates though. I like the fact that you lose your ship and all when you die in eve, it's nice and permanent. I also wish there was a bit more PvP to be honest, but I haven't yet decided what would encourage it in Eve. The fact that most T2 ships don't insure for nearly what they cost is a huge factor imo. I think a better question to tackle would be what would encourage more PvP inside Eve. I don't think people would have as big a problem with stabs if more people actually fought back. Perhaps it's too off topic with this thread but since I play pretty casually I find it hard to part with a battleship or battlecruiser every time I turn around. I spend 100mil on a raven, then insure it for 32mil, I outfit it for 30-40 more mil. And then I get blown up after just a few engagements. Sure I get the insurance money back but I lose the 60-70mil in fittings and insurance.
Now, from the pirate side blowing up a ratter can be great money because they have alot in their inventory, but from the ratter's perspective they will probably get nothing for blowing up a pirate, or at the best a small named fitting. Bounties are supposed to take care of that to a certain extent, but if a bounty is worth killing for, the pirate will usually have a friend kill them and give them the bounty. I don't know what the answer is but it's worth a thought and if the effort was put into that rather than complaining about stabs perhaps both sides could get what they wanted.
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Maliber
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.09.07 23:58:00 -
[56]
Hmm i think this discussion is kinda old and boring, anyways here we go:
Besides the views that stab users and anti stab users dissagree on(see above posts...) The problem is not really the one or occasional 2 stabs on a indy or a ratting ship. The problem lies in the slot layout.
As pointed out before its quite doable to fit in 2 stabs. Ppl who want to catch stab users have to make a serious sacrefice to there pvp setup and combat effectiveness.
To put things into perspective: you have a nice neighberhood pirate. The bloke likes fast ships so he has this nice vagabond(totaly the flaevor of the month so he is ok), its nice and nasty to catch. Now you and your mate want to catch him. And like a real hero the nasty pirate has stabs fitted. Now you will... hmm there's not realy any ship setup to catch him is there. besides another vagabond. cause how to get in range to web and scramble him.... you need either 4 points or dual webs and there is no way you can fit them on any ship together and still go fast. a well lets go to a normal setup then:
hmm now lets see the nasty pirate is out of isk and flies a rax. Your realy ****ed off because he broke up your mining op. how do you catch him with your cruisers?. You have to have a caracel or something with a web and room for 3 points + web and the guy can still warp of(if he's realy lame). Its not about consensual combat. This guy wants to fight and you have no way of getting him because you lack mid slots. you give up you mids to catch someone and he gives up well a bit of his setup to just ignore you. You have to start using 4 point scramblin inties and have a nice big gang because there is no way to catch him.
ppl who say that stabs are necessary for small gangs arnt realy paying attention. stabs are necessary to get away from small gangs. A caracal with a mwd and 5 scramblin points isnt realy a viable setup now is it.
Maliber
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Vim
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2006.09.08 00:03:00 -
[57]
Go read the art of war and then learn that you dont need to blow an enemy up at every engagment to win the war :-)
There is nothing wrong with going in, then withdrawing.
Without penalty? It is a minimum of one low slot going to possible waste.
Should we perhaps do the discussion this way:
Should frigates & battleships both be as easily scrambled?
Would it not make sense for a battleship to have a warp core base strength of 6 already or perhaps we need a heavy warp scrambler to lockdown battleships? etc etc etc...
Leave the stabs, nothing wrong with running away from a fight. However it would be nice to have a grapical or textual represenation when firing your scram of how much the enemy ships warp core is holding out so you can yell: Get your scram on him, one point more to go.
/*
Teach a noob today watch him takedown a battleship tomorrow...
*/ |
Jacob Swell
Caldari
Ars Caelestis
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.08 01:03:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Lets say there is a prearranged 1 v 1, 1 person with 2 stabs, and one person with a warp scrambler.
The person with the warp scrambler will either live, or die, he will not collect any loot, nor will he win anything. He is laying it all on the line. The person with the stabs is not risking anything, he either wins, or he lives. He cannot be killed in this instance.
Whether or not it gimps a setup is irrelevent, as the gimped setup can still live, whereas the opposite setup can die.
Ummm...since the stab guy doesn't have a scram, the other guy can warp out whenever he pleases. 
But assuming equal setup save for stabs, I'd call the guy with the escape option the smarter PvP myself.
I have no problem with people outfitting WCS on PvP ships. It is trade off between WCS and armor/weapon mods/cap & fitting mods. If a person invests all their slots in stabs, I'd like someone explain to me why they shouldn't be allowed to dictate the terms of PvP combat?
I don't subscribe to the idea that combat has to be a all out brawl, and it doesn't have to end with one ship blowing up. Hit-and-Run IMO is a perfectly valid tactic to use in this game.
Really the only people who are complaining about WCS are the PvPers who refuse to invest in more than one Scram because it would ruin their ship build and those players who crave killmails.
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Kyguard
Our Brothers Five
3rd Front Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.08 01:11:00 -
[59]
Give them a penalty to missile / turret / drone rate of fire per stab fitted and make it not stack. This will be great for indies who want to travel and at the same time stop wcs use in combat.
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God is on the side with the best artillery. |
Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.08 01:33:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Lazy8s on 08/09/2006 01:34:03
Kyguard: You still have the problem of "Why?". Of course you could do this but why? Can you not fit a stab too if you think it is so godly. Forgive the reference here but in Counter Strike everyone complains that the AWP is SOOO overpowered however they never buy one and use it! If it is a noob gun and SO easy to kill everyone with then why not pick up an AWP and show everyone how overpowered it is?
Same thing here. Can you not fit a stab just like the next guy? If they are so overpowered than put one on. If it messes up your ship fittings then you have just proven that they are balanced.
Also, for the vagabond messing up the mining op. 2 things. First, even without stabs he would own miners. Secondly, if you have a whole mining op going then obviously you have enough people to fit 1 scram a piece and catch the guy. Add to that the fact that if you stab as well he can't catch you either so what's the big deal?
I agree it is more of a sacrifice to fit scrams than it is to fit WCSs but so what? Are you saying that if a pirate sacrifices a medium slot he should automatically be able to scram anyone he wishes? Where is the inherant right to be able to scram anyone you please without sacrificing your setup?
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