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Soyemia
Minmatar
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:12:00 -
[1]
Discuss, I DO NOT want arguments like "THEY ARE COWARDISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111". I wanna arguments why they are overpowered, we're not talking about indys..
Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes |
wierchas noobhunter
Caldari
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:14:00 -
[2]
they are ok
end
.
Hey i get paid to be ebil  - Xorus
So how much you want for the ebil goat??-Tirg
I don't  - Imz0r |
Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:16:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Soyemia
Discuss, I DO NOT want arguments like "THEY ARE COWARDISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111". I wanna arguments why they are overpowered, we're not talking about indys..
I think they're annoying and shouldn't be used on combat ships but not really overpowered. When used in travel setups I don't mind them. Aside from that they are to me just like ECM - used mainly by the incompetent to give them the advantage that their brain is unable to supply.
- - - - - -
I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
coldrieve
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:22:00 -
[4]
i once had a big arguement with some player about that.
they claimed WCS was like an "i win button"
because the target could get away.
his arguement was that say if you are mining in 0.0. you should get ganked and having the WCS allowed the miner to get away from a gank.
hence there was no "high risk" for the high reward of mining in 0.0
he also complained that people can pick a fight and then run away.
what's really wrong with that? some player attacks you and you turn the tables on him and he runs. you've won!
i don't understand why some players assume it is their right to warp scramble you without you being able to do anything about it.
the guy also complained that a ship with multi WCS required more ships to lock it down.
thinking about it now, i don't know if he never realised that you can fit more than one scrambler or disruptor on your ship to counter someone with more than 1 WCS.
i have had 2 - 3 WCS on my ships and still got ganked.
i personally don't think anything is wrong with WCS. CCP can get rid of it once they get rid of scramblers/disruptors.
it is like counter and counter counter
wcs vs scramblers/disruptors
ECM vs ECCM
dampeners vs sensor boosters
all in all pretty fair i think.
i know this, i rat in 0.0 and i wont be caught without at least 2 x WCS on my ship. if someone wants to lock me down, then let him fit 3 x disruptors etc
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Ginaz
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:32:00 -
[5]
Basicly, stabs are no problem.
Problem are stabs + pvp.
Stabs purpose is to protect yourself from nonconsentual (sp?) pvp. That's fine on every barge, indy and whatever. Stabs are not made to be win-win button in pvp, especially duels.
They are way too easy to include into most pvp setup. Nobody complains about barges, exhumers, haulers and npcing/mining peeps fitting stabs. It's the nonsense that you can fit 2 stabs (or more) on deimos, vagabond, sleipnir, almost every caldari ship and still pvp with them decently.
Video: 'Behind enemy lines'
Queen of the Amazones |
Outa Rileau
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:32:00 -
[6]
Depends on what they are used for, and how many...
I hate them mainly in combat. Although they may cost you a low slot and somewhat screw up your setup, you still got the "IWIN", won't die button, because you will just warp out if a fight gets out of hand. It's like one big "HARHAR I R INVINCIBLE" module, that's why it's overpowered and wrong. 
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Getting Sig Removed / Rank 8 / SP: 762039 of 2048000 
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Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:34:00 -
[7]
Stabs are fine. They gimp your setup and make you less effective in combet. I like my opponents to be less effective. People need to realize that running != winning. It means they chickened out when you started tearing them up.
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior)
I kill people ingame too. |
coldrieve
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:35:00 -
[8]
you can still get webbed and once webbed you can't warp out
happened to me...
i approached a gate in 0.0
inty locks on and trieds to scramble...doesn't work.
his friends jump in and they web me and i die.
webbing against wcs fitted ships work i guess if you can web them fast enough and get their speed below the 80% (i think) max speed u need for warp
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Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: coldrieve
you can still get webbed and once webbed you can't warp out
happened to me...
i approached a gate in 0.0
inty locks on and trieds to scramble...doesn't work.
his friends jump in and they web me and i die.
webbing against wcs fitted ships work i guess if you can web them fast enough and get their speed below the 80% (i think) max speed u need for warp
Not quite. You can warp at even 1m/s but the slow speed make it take forever for you to align.
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior)
I kill people ingame too. |
Pestillence
Revelations Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: coldrieve
you can still get webbed and once webbed you can't warp out
happened to me...
i approached a gate in 0.0
inty locks on and trieds to scramble...doesn't work.
his friends jump in and they web me and i die.
webbing against wcs fitted ships work i guess if you can web them fast enough and get their speed below the 80% (i think) max speed u need for warp
You warp when you hit 75% of your max velocity.
If your max velocity is 10m/s because you are webbed you will warp when your speed reaches 7.5m/s
So basically webbing someone makes them reach warp faster
Off topic but meh.
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Outa Rileau
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix
People need to realize that running != winning. It means they chickened out when you started tearing them up.
Kind of hard to make money from pvp if you can't kill anything 
Originally by: coldrieve
you can still get webbed and once webbed you can't warp out
happened to me...
i approached a gate in 0.0
inty locks on and trieds to scramble...doesn't work.
his friends jump in and they web me and i die.
webbing against wcs fitted ships work i guess if you can web them fast enough and get their speed below the 80% (i think) max speed u need for warp
If you get webbed below your regular 80% speed, you can still warp at 80% of your current webbed speed. You might be a bit slower to align though, but you will warp instantly if already aligned.
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Getting Sig Removed / Rank 8 / SP: 762039 of 2048000
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Choi
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:46:00 -
[12]
stabs dumb down the game. for instance...
if your target has a stab and you have just 1 point of scram he gets away. so you put on 2 points... but now he has 2 stabs.. u put on 4 scramblers for a ridiculous 8 points and you run across someone who isnt fitting stabs and kicks your ass because he hasnt gimped his setup.
Basicly instead of tinkering with mods and getting your skills and setup to kick butt it comes down to who has more stabs or points of warp scrambling.
and if you participate in anything in 0.0 you should either 1) be ready to pvp or 2) have freinds with you to pvp and save your butt while you mine.
point being this game should be about skill ( points and gaming ability ) instead of playing rock paper scissors with warp stabs and scramblers.
"my 6 stabs beats your 3 points of scramble haha"
point being it should be harder for someone to get away not the other weay around.
[/rant]
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Derrys
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.09.06 20:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix
Not quite. You can warp at even 1m/s but the slow speed make it take forever for you to align.
Not quite.  Webbers don't affect maneuvering or acceleration. What happens is that, after you're webbed, it takes a while for your speed to drop down to its new level. In that time, you're going too fast to warp. Your speed needs to be within a certain range to warp, and right after you're webbed you're briefly out of that range.
--
Admiral Derrys Otireya
Commander, Fleet Operations, Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Fleet Admiral, Kimotoro Directive |
twit brent
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.06 22:23:00 -
[14]
Look at the ships setup section, if you fit one WCS your ship will be better than every ship in the setups section that only has 1 disruptor in a 1vs1.
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Jude Kopenhagen
Caldari
Mordu's Elite
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Posted - 2006.09.06 22:48:00 -
[15]
I do not believe stabs are wrong, they have a counter just like everything else. We have faced opponentes with multible stabs, and have been able to kill every one of them, however it required us to addapt our strategy to counter them. I think the general problem is that people believe they have to kill a ship to win, its all about kill mails and stabs prevent that. Does this mean I like it when an opponent warps out after I have tackled him due to stabs, course not, I hate it, but it is all part of the game and I could have prevented it.
So yeah, its more about attitude that a general problem with the module.
Jude
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Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.09.06 23:04:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 06/09/2006 23:05:32
Originally by: Choi
...blah blah....
and if you participate in anything in 0.0 you should either 1) be ready to pvp or 2) have freinds with you to pvp and save your butt while you mine.
this game should be about skill ( points and gaming ability ) instead of playing rock paper scissors with warp stabs and scramblers.....
Hey everybody, dont fit stabs in 0.0, thats the rules dont fit mining lasers, fit small lasers on that covetor
0.0 has so many roaming gangs in parts that you would be insane to not have a stab or two on your npc'ing raven ... EVE is a pvp gave, but you need iskies to pvp and you gain those by not getting blown up every day by a claw with a warp scrambler or whatever ...
What does annoy me though is****abonds, is there a single one in game flown without a few wcs? |
Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.09.06 23:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Radioactive Babe
Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 06/09/2006 23:05:32
Originally by: Choi
...blah blah....
and if you participate in anything in 0.0 you should either 1) be ready to pvp or 2) have freinds with you to pvp and save your butt while you mine.
this game should be about skill ( points and gaming ability ) instead of playing rock paper scissors with warp stabs and scramblers.....
Hey everybody, dont fit stabs in 0.0, thats the rules dont fit mining lasers, fit small lasers on that covetor
0.0 has so many roaming gangs in parts that you would be insane to not have a stab or two on your npc'ing raven ... EVE is a pvp gave, but you need iskies to pvp and you gain those by not getting blown up every day by a claw with a warp scrambler or whatever ...
What does annoy me though is****abonds, is there a single one in game flown without a few wcs?
What is wrong with fitting WCS on a ship that is designed to be able to escape when outgunned? I think its perfectly fine to fit WCS on a pvp ship if you're aiming to do lightning strikes and get out of the way before reinforcements come. Its a valid tactic. Just because you have more people on your side doesn't mean you should win.
Guerilla warfare ftw, don't whine because you can't handle it.
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D'onryu Shoqui
Gallente
Vengeance of the Fallen
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Posted - 2006.09.06 23:24:00 -
[18]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 06/09/2006 23:23:58
http://snoop1050.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/STABS.jpg
I WIN! lol j/k couldnt resist doing that, i dont usually have that setup 
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Pj Dj
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 01:03:00 -
[19]
There is nothing wrong with stabs, people whine because they lost a kill when someone warped out etcetc...my heart bleeds for you.
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Ryoken McKeon
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Posted - 2006.09.07 01:14:00 -
[20]
Right, warp stabs are overpowered. When I run into a pirate who's been playing for 3 years and by some miracle I (1 and 1/2 months playing) survive his first hit, if I have a WCS, i'm outa there. Pirates, I think that ganking me for no reason whatsoever (I give you nothing, your net gain from killing my cruiser isn't measured in isk, it's in my blood, sweat, and tears) is pretty frickin' *** too, that isn't PvP. WCS lets me avoid you every once in a blue moon, so it's great. Stuff it.
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Xeoz
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 01:25:00 -
[21]
Most people agree that trying to pvp without a scrambler is futile. I personally feel the same holds true about stabs. I try to fit both a scrambler and at least one wcs on any ship that I might pvp in.
It's simple:
- If you don't have a scrambler then the enemy gets away. If he gets away he is now in control of the fight, he can repair and try again or just survive.
- If you don't have a stab then you don't get away. If you can't get away then you don't have control of the situation. You have no second chance to repair and try again, and no second chance to survive.
Sure the idea is to just plain win the fight, but really how often is any random encounter fair. Most of the time it's just a gank for one side or the other. Either you are horribly outclassed or the enemy is. Stabs allow you to choose the fight when you are on the receiving end.
I don't care if others think it's a lame tactic. I'm not going to let my 10-400 million isk investment get vaporized just for some sense of pride that he doesn't care about anyway. I am going to use every trick available to either win or survive. Further more, I can guarantee that if you give your enemy the opportunity, they will also do anything to win or survive, including running.
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Wen Jaibao
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.07 01:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Xeoz
Most people agree that trying to pvp without a scrambler is futile. I personally feel the same holds true about stabs. I try to fit both a scrambler and at least one wcs on any ship that I might pvp in.
It's simple:
- If you don't have a scrambler then the enemy gets away. If he gets away he is now in control of the fight, he can repair and try again or just survive.
- If you don't have a stab then you don't get away. If you can't get away then you don't have control of the situation. You have no second chance to repair and try again, and no second chance to survive.
Sure the idea is to just plain win the fight, but really how often is any random encounter fair. Most of the time it's just a gank for one side or the other. Either you are horribly outclassed or the enemy is. Stabs allow you to choose the fight when you are on the receiving end.
I don't care if others think it's a lame tactic. I'm not going to let my 10-400 million isk investment get vaporized just for some sense of pride that he doesn't care about anyway. I am going to use every trick available to either win or survive. Further more, I can guarantee that if you give your enemy the opportunity, they will also do anything to win or survive, including running.
Zomg honorless!!11
Immature jokes aside, I agree with you. If I'm solo, I'm fitting stabs. Getting ganked is nothing about honor, its just a slaughter, and I'm going to avoid a fight I don't have a chance to win. Entire gangs fitting stabs is lame though..
!'s are taking over |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.09.07 02:12:00 -
[23]
Stabs are Eve's default "Nerf Minmatar" setting. Why you may ask?
Simple. Stabs allow everyone to do Matari's speciality, hit-and-run/skirmish warfare with none of the sacrifices. You see, Matari speed is what should allow them to do skirmish warfare. If things are going bad they should have the speed to fly out of scramble range and warp away. This is opposed to the Amarr school of thought where Amarr have more armor than Matari ships but lack the speed to get out of scramble range. The Vagabond/Jagabond/Nanophoon and probably the Tier 2 BC should all exemplify this Matari concept of escape through speed.
The rediculously low fitting, non-cap use, low slot fitting of stabs makes speed completely irrelevant for escape unless you are a Vaga/Jaga/Nanophoon/Inty with 2000m/s speed. Anyone with an extra low slot or two (or five) can now do the Matari specialty for 30 CPU! Wow! Aren't you glad you trained Matari!
Nerf stabs on combat setups. Travel setups are fine.
Make Matari speed usefull by nerfing stabs. Oh yeah, then give all the non-speed specialist Matari ships more appreciable speed over thier racial counterparts. 10m/s more on a Tempest over the Geddon is a joke. Then give Amarr ships more armor than thier racial counterparts. Gallente already have bigger dronebays, and Caldari have more missile slots and more mids/better ECM.
Then maybe things would be more balanced.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux
The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.09.07 02:20:00 -
[24]
Nyxus, taking away wcs would make the vagabond (and various other minmatar ships that do vagabond-type stuff) suck. Its not good for anything else than quick ganks against superior numbers. I know that boosting velocity might seem like it would be as good as wcs but it really doesnt. Maybe if minmatar speeds were multiplied by 5 or something but I can't see that happening.
I know, it is stupid with ravens and such fitting wcs and being slow as **** and still escaping, but still.
Heh, maybe making WCS use 60 CPU but only 20 on minmatar ships? Minmatar: The Retreat Race!
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Ginaz
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.07 02:27:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ginaz on 07/09/2006 02:29:20
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix
They gimp your setup and make you less effective in combet.
Thats bull****, look at emothron, vaga, sleipnir, deimos, zealot, curse, falcon, rook, ferox, nighthawk, vulture, caracal, cerberus, raven, prophecy, geddon, sniperpoc, tempest, phoon....
they are all working very well in pvp, even with 1-2 stabs. for most of them you will find good pvp fittings including 2 stabs.
That's the bull**** about stabs. They should be midslot or highslot modules. Scrambles are midslot, so should be stabs. Indys have to make the tradeoff between cargo and wcs. With mid slot wcs they can have both.
HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY TO CAREBEARS
P.S.: I never fitted WCS in 0.0 (except for being on a travelrun like gettin deimos from empire to 0.0 when i missed the freighterrun) and i NEVER EVER got ganked. Take a close watch on local. Keep close eye on your enemy intel channel such like "My*******regioncom" or whatever
Video: 'Behind enemy lines'
Queen of the Amazones |
Ginaz
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.07 02:32:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Nyxus, taking away wcs would make the vagabond (and various other minmatar ships that do vagabond-type stuff) suck. Its not good for anything else than quick ganks against superior numbers. I know that boosting velocity might seem like it would be as good as wcs but it really doesnt. Maybe if minmatar speeds were multiplied by 5 or something but I can't see that happening.
I know, it is stupid with ravens and such fitting wcs and being slow as **** and still escaping, but still.
Heh, maybe making WCS use 60 CPU but only 20 on minmatar ships? Minmatar: The Retreat Race!
I have seen vagapilots with LG snake set + nano/gyro vagas... all of them have eaten stababonds for breakfast and they don't loose their ships more often then stababond pilots.
And you dont even need the LG set.
but 6.9km/s and more is nice
Video: 'Behind enemy lines'
Queen of the Amazones |
Benglada
Finite Auxiliary
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Posted - 2006.09.07 02:36:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Benglada on 07/09/2006 02:36:54
Its almost like when you see a guy holding a big bag of diamonds, you chase him down for 20 minutes, you finally get him, are about to take his big bag of diamonds but POOF he dissappears.
Big-Waste-Of-My-Time.
---------------------------
Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
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Shadowace Evi
Gallente
A.W.M
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.09.07 03:08:00 -
[28]
i don't see how, sure they can run away but if they run that means they lost
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Sidraket
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.09.07 03:12:00 -
[29]
Stabs are wrong because killboards have brainwashed people.
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Blanche Virgo
The Followers of Origin
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Posted - 2006.09.07 03:14:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Minmatar: The Retreat Race!
The Gallente should be the retreat race, they do have French origin after all.
EvE > WoW |
Hamatitio
Caldari
Fate.
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.07 04:26:00 -
[31]
My big problem with stabs is that it does not really harm a persons setup.
Lets say there is a prearranged 1 v 1, 1 person with 2 stabs, and one person with a warp scrambler.
The person with the warp scrambler will either live, or die, he will not collect any loot, nor will he win anything. He is laying it all on the line. The person with the stabs is not risking anything, he either wins, or he lives. He cannot be killed in this instance.
Whether or not it gimps a setup is irrelevent, as the gimped setup can still live, whereas the opposite setup can die.
Re-reading that I kind of ramble but I'm much too lazy to fix it.
---
I'm going through sigs fast these days. |
Liu Kaskakka
PAK
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Posted - 2006.09.07 05:04:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Shadowace Evi
i don't see how, sure they can run away but if they run that means they lost
Yeah, and then they come back and kill you, doh.
King Liu is RIGHT!!
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 05:54:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Derrys
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix
Not quite. You can warp at even 1m/s but the slow speed make it take forever for you to align.
Not quite. Webbers don't affect maneuvering or acceleration. What happens is that, after you're webbed, it takes a while for your speed to drop down to its new level. In that time, you're going too fast to warp. Your speed needs to be within a certain range to warp, and right after you're webbed you're briefly out of that range.
not quite :-)
if you are aligned, you have to go at least 80% of max speed. if you are over that speed does not matter you warp anyway. I use this with a slow indy and AB.the indy takes longer to get up to speed than to align, so I pulse the AB and once it ends cycle and my max speed drops (I am still on ab speed so more then current max) I warp instantly in that moment.
Originally by: JP Beauregard
The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls.... 
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coldrieve
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Posted - 2006.09.07 16:34:00 -
[34]
if you really wanted to kill a ship with WCS fitted... you could bump it right?
when it's trying to align to warp
and saw some setups for ships with 2 or more scramblers.
so what a ship has WCS. fit more scramblers.
people say you fit WCS and you lose nothing.
i disagree
you lose a low slot...you lose the ability to fit a backup sensor, a sensor amplifier, a amor rep. or something.
those who talk about wcs, why dont they give up using disruptors and scrams.
:)
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tookar
Amarr
Krookid
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Posted - 2006.09.07 16:51:00 -
[35]
The worst thing is the fact that people can fit stabs on good combat ships and not really gimp their setup too much and simply avoid combat with the same class ships . Sniping bs gangs anyone????
This just makes it unfair on newer players and boring for everyone else imo . Nerf stabs on combat ships and allow warp to anything over 150k away :)
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Koth Krakenworth
Minmatar
S.A.S
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Posted - 2006.09.07 17:25:00 -
[36]
I don't see why a simple negative combat attribute on the wcs wouldn't solve the problem. And the effect doesn't even have to be that special in order to gimp your setup in a way to discourage people from using them. A simple scan res penalty (who needs to target when you're travelling anyways, and if you wanna be safer in a belt, just make it take some more time to lock the npcs) could do the trick. Or a more direct combat penatly, such as -10% grid and cpu per stab or something, that would really gimp your setup more then just losing a lowslot per stab.
Signature: Complete Image
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Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.07 17:35:00 -
[37]
There is nothing wrong with stabs at all. They provide no advantages that the attacking ship does not have double. The biggest complaint is "It allows them to warp away and come back to kill you." Well then, idiot, I suggest either you fit stabs to do the same or when they warp away to dock and recharge their shield you DO THE SAME THING! Honestly, stupidity is the only commodity that has an endless supply, you can quote me on that.
Let's review stabs:
Upsides:
You can warp away, IF you fit enough, and IF they don't bring more than one ship
You can PvP on your terms, only when you want to.
Downsides:
You lose a low slot and therefore it's alot harder to win a PvP engagement.
When you warp off the ganker gets super ticked off and next time comes back with 3 budies and you get toasted.
Notice, there is NO downside with the victim stabbing for the ganker.If the stabber beats you /cry more, you would have lost anyways. If they warp off and repair then come back and demolish you /cry more, you could have done the same thing while they were gone. If they have "too many stabs" /cry more, bring a friend or fit more scrams. The only way stabs would be overpowered would be if gankers couldn't fit them but suprise suprise in all of CCP's infinite wisdom they allowed EVERYONE in Eve to fit them, yes that includes you!
Now, do I see how irritating it is to get ganked by a stabbing snipe squad, yes but get real. If stabs didn't exist those 3 BSs would have toasted you anyways. Do I see how stabs lower the risk of mining in 0.0? Yes, on the other hand who in the heck would ever mine if they were guaranteed to die every time a pirate entered the system? It's not like a miner can fight back very well. If you're out to kill them fit 2 -2 scrams on your ship or bring a friend.
The only real downside I see is it does discourage 1v1 pirating. It greatly encourages people to bring 3 or 4 friends which takes alot of the skill out of pirating. However, should they be disallowed because of this? No. Do you honestly believe that if stabs were removed pirates would only solo-gank? No. I think the problem is people need to get real and understand that everything they hate would still occur. The 3 BS gank squad would turn into a 10 BS gank squad etc.
I have yet to see one valid argument for stabs being overpowered. If "the problem is that any good PvP ship can fit one and not gimp themselves" then I suggest you fit one yourself and even out the playing field.
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Tempest Tsai
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Posted - 2006.09.07 17:58:00 -
[38]
Inside the Mind of a Pirate/Ganker:
Anything that doesn't allow me to destroy anyone that I have the advantage over MUST be unfair.
Anything that's added that forces me to rethink my plan of ganking and improvise HAS to be unbalanced.
Everything is fine in the game until I lose.
Gankers are the same in every game out there.
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Worms Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.07 18:03:00 -
[39]
the problem is that people cant think tacticly. if you wear an enemy down and they have stabs and get away, they have still left the area meaning you win. problem is due to how EVE is played if the player has no killmail then the fight never happened. tacticly speaking a retreat is better then a kill as they could be out of the fight longer if they fall back to repair and regroup, where if they get popped and podded they are back at base where they probally have a new ship ready to roll.
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coldrieve
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Posted - 2006.09.07 18:18:00 -
[40]
yep
i've been saying the same thing
you dont have to kill the other ship to win...
if the ship runs you have a victory
last night i lost a raven in 0.0 to 4 gankers. i was just ratting trying to make some isk. lol
i had 2 stabs fitted and they got me still.
so i went to get another raven and when i bought it just for the hell of it i put on 5 x WCS. cuz we're at war atm.
thank heavens that i did... 2 jumps out 4 war targets attacked me. those WCS saved my shiny new raven. :)
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delta2zero
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Posted - 2006.09.07 18:24:00 -
[41]
Edited by: delta2zero on 07/09/2006 18:24:18
SOLUTION: add different stabs for each ship type.
small stabs for frigs, large stabs for bs etc.
have the build cost be fairly high.
2mil for frig
4mil for cruiser.
6mil for bs.
give the modual a durability stats which can not be repaired. ie 10 uses and then you scrap them (not recycle)
or
warpcore stabs could use charges which are expensive but dont take much space.
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Agnar Koladrov
Gallente
Hurricane Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.07 18:28:00 -
[42]
Only thing that stabs do in a 'negative' way is irritate people cause they can and or cannot get there 'thing'.
Then (1) the *****ing/flaming starts, then the irritations grown to an all time high and the two sides start to scream at eachother without actually hearing/wanting to hear other opinions.
Last be not least, (2) then we get a gazillion post on how 'that' can be changed or MUST be nerfed in ones personal experiance and we go back to (1).
Endless loop.
________________________________________________
Bring The Stabber in line with the other two versions. Add a 4th low! |
Antskyeeh
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:11:00 -
[43]
WCS in travel/flight setups are legit imo, after all the person made a sacrifice to put them in (cargo space, tank, whatever).
On a pvp ship things are different because it allows the user to get a "free roll of the dice". He/she engages the target and warps away at the first sign of danger, without penalty, and that is unfair to the opponent.
What I propose would be for new coding whereby if you activate an aggressive module (you know, the ones concord cares about) it would disable the protection you get from WCS for the duration of the aggro timer. This will on one hand allow WCS to be used for their intended purpose (permitting people to avoid non-consentual pvp) while making people having to face the consequences of willfully engaging someone else. No more free spins of the wheel of fortune!
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Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:20:00 -
[44]
Ok I only read the OP so someone may have said this but I don't really care.
Stabs are fine except when fitting them on PvP ships. Why you ask? Well picture it if everyone fit stabs on their ship. Combat would consist of fitting your ships with so much damage that you can kill what you attack instantly (fat chance with a BS/BC) or attacking with a large amount of ships at all times to get enough scramble points, or sacrificing many mid slots for numerous scramblers/disruptors just so you can again get enough points (think of the caldari/minmatar!).
Take into account, the Vagabond. The ship is damn nice theres no denying it, but the thing that makes it as fearsome as it is, is the fact that it can fit 2 stabs without gimping the setup. I always tell the people on my corp: "You can only survive a vagabond, not kill one.". Ok sure this isn't true, Vagabonds are quite killable since not everyone fits stabs on em and sometimes you can get web/enough points on them so they can't warp, but you see my point. If everyone fit stabs, PvP would consist of simply warping out when you take too much damage.
===============================================
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:23:00 -
[45]
Can someone tell me what is wrong with combat ships fitting wcs so they can do guerilla-type strikes? Honestly?
Nerfing WCS = nerfing the small group pvpers fighting huge blob alliances.
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Heinrich Klaus
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:49:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Heinrich Klaus on 07/09/2006 19:53:23
double post
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Heinrich Klaus
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:53:00 -
[47]
Fitting stabs just makes your opponents need to either A) group up to gank you if they want enough scramble strength, or B) sacrifice needed midslots to fit more scramblers. In my opinion this dumbs down the game, and makes ganking more popular.
They take 30ish CPU and are put into lowslots (which are arguable the easiest slot to spare on most ships) and give you a HUGE advantage that is always on and functioning passively using no cap, and having no activation time. Unlike most lowslot modules (armor tanking modules aside) that use no cap, they have no stacking penalty or disadvantage of any kind added to your ship attributes.
They become very problematic as ships get larger and people have more slots to "waste". Although you gimp yourself fitting them, being able to run away from fights means you don't lose your ship. EVE is supposed to be a game with consequences, but for someone fitting stabs and fighting even odds, the majority of the time a "loss" has no consequence other than a repair bill and a bruised ego.
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Drusan
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:56:00 -
[48]
Maybe I'm just missing the point here but if someone is complaining that Stabs are wrong...
If the warp scrambled target successfully ECM's the scrambler, they get all the benefits of a Warp Stab AND stops incoming fire for a minute. If they are close in tacklers and the defender has a Burst equipped, even more so.
So, if someone wants to equip a stab, by all means do so. Wouldn't the ECM be a better choice that also has offensive system use? Stabs are hardly a guaranteed escape and reduce the combat options of the ship in question.
Anyone arguing that ships they attack should not have viable means of escape doesn't have a leg to stand on, and stabs seem no more or less viable than ECM systems.
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Heinrich Klaus
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
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Posted - 2006.09.07 19:58:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Heinrich Klaus on 07/09/2006 20:00:54
ECM is chance based, has a countering module, and requires a midslot, by far a harder slot to take up as an "extra" on the majority of ships ingame. On top of that it requires capacitor, has a tougher fitting requirement, and must be activated. It also has specialized skills that need to be trained for full effectiveness. A single ECM will not save you in an engagement larger than 1v1, and most of the time, 2 or 3 won't either. On top of that it's a rare ship that could fit that many ecm (mostly caldari and a few minmatar).
Regardless, this is a post about WCS, not ECM; saying ECM unbalanced as well does not mean WCS are suddenly OK.
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Twisted Craze
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Posted - 2006.09.07 20:16:00 -
[50]
They are not overpowered. You can't tank well with stabs in your lowslots.
I prefer using none of them, I like using the map and instas far better.
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Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.07 20:20:00 -
[51]
Quote:
Maybe I'm just missing the point here but if someone is complaining that Stabs are wrong...
If the warp scrambled target successfully ECM's the scrambler, they get all the benefits of a Warp Stab AND stops incoming fire for a minute. If they are close in tacklers and the defender has a Burst equipped, even more so.
So, if someone wants to equip a stab, by all means do so. Wouldn't the ECM be a better choice that also has offensive system use? Stabs are hardly a guaranteed escape and reduce the combat options of the ship in question.
Anyone arguing that ships they attack should not have viable means of escape doesn't have a leg to stand on, and stabs seem no more or less viable than ECM systems.
Try not to use reason and logic here, remember this is a discussion. And by "discussion" we mean a good excuse for ticked off people to complain about WCS. Afterall the provide "a HUGE advantage to the person wearing them!!!!!111!!ONE" Honestly, what the heck is that advantage? The ability to run? OOOOoooooo BIG advantage there, the person is going to run away ahhhh!!!! Oh wait, that doesn't hurt you at all I forgot.
If anything the pirates should be GLAD the person ran from them. Every person that stays and fights is another chance for you to lose your ship.
The BIGGEST confusion here is simple logic. A implies B is NOT an if and only if argument! A implies B: WCS causes group ganking. Yes, this we can agree on. However, if WCS were removed that would NOT eliminate group ganking. See how it doesn't work both ways? The only thing that occurs now that would NOT occur without WCSs is people that run simply because they have more WCSs than you have jammers. If WCS were removed everyone would fit ECMs or they would dock the second you enter the system. Or, more probably, they would stop ratting solo in 0.0 and move to empire giving you guys less people to try and kill in the first place. Or when you jumped in to try and gank you would instead be met by a group or 3 BSs ratting and get killed yourself. If anything you should be thankful for WCS because they make people brave enough to become your targets. Without stabs everyone would be running empire missions and then where would you be?
I don't see how a discussion of stabs being "overpowered" can even exist. They don't give the person an advantage over you at all. To be overpowered they would have to help the person win a fight. All they do is allow them to escape. The last time I blew someone up and thought "Dang, good thing I had 3 stabs fitted or I never would have beat him" was um....oh yeah, never.
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Gift
Amarr
Loot
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Posted - 2006.09.07 21:09:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Gift on 07/09/2006 21:09:21
Originally by: Lazy8s
If anything the pirates should be GLAD the person ran from them. Every person that stays and fights is another chance for you to lose your ship.
Can I spend my "they ran away" credits in Jita? If not, you have no clue of what you're talkning about.
Pirates of Eve, Join channel "Pirate" Today!
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Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.07 21:41:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Lazy8s on 07/09/2006 21:45:58
Could you blow them up in jita because they knew that the second they went into lowsec a gatecamping pirate would target them and they would lose their ship? I have killed pirates that warped in on me ratting that I would have run from but I got caught with no stabs so I stayed and fought and blew them up. My point is without stabs alot of people would never go out of empire space therefore you would have no one to blow up or credits to get. Sure it ticks me off when a pirate jumps in on me, I lay down the smack and he warps out before I kill him but does that make stabs overpowered? No, if they helped him kill me that would make them overpowered. You may not like the fact that you can't kill anyone that you target but there is nothing overpowered about them running away.
My point, if you read the sentence again, is you can't spend your "I got blown up" credits in jita either. Pirating is risk vs reward like the rest of the game, just because you can scram them doesn't mean you would kill them does it? Every pirate assumes that they would have killed the ones that got away. Sometimes them stabbing may have saved your ship not theirs.
If they had no stabs they would rat in groups making it even harder for you to get killspam. Quit acting like getting rid of stabs instantly means you would get a bunch of kills and earn more money. Ridding eve of stabs could just as easily make killable ships even more rare because you would have to take them on in groups instead of solo like they are now.
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Gift
Amarr
Loot
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Posted - 2006.09.07 21:58:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Lazy8s
You may not like the fact that you can't kill anyone that you target but there is nothing overpowered about them running away.
I actually don't have a problem with stabs, never said I did. How I deal with people running away is putting on more scramblers or killing them really fast.
Originally by: Lazy8s
My point, if you read the sentence again, is you can't spend your "I got blown up" credits in jita either. Pirating is risk vs reward like the rest of the game, just because you can scram them doesn't mean you would kill them does it? Every pirate assumes that they would have killed the ones that got away. Sometimes them stabbing may have saved your ship not theirs.
As I am as much a pvp'er as a pirate, I welcome any fight that comes my way. If the whole of eve would grow a pair I can't see how that wouldn't benefit me.
Originally by: Lazy8s
If they had no stabs they would rat in groups making it even harder for you to get killspam.
I have no idea what "killspam" is, but i am pretty sure I don't do it.
Originally by: Lazy8s
Quit acting like getting rid of stabs instantly means you would get a bunch of kills and earn more money. Ridding eve of stabs could just as easily make killable ships even more rare because you would have to take them on in groups instead of solo like they are now.
are you still talking to me? I don't remember saying "word 1" about stabs. My statement was regarding your complete lack of understanding of my chosen profession, of which I still stand by.
Pirates of Eve, Join channel "Pirate" Today!
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Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.07 22:56:00 -
[55]
Sorry killmail is what it's called in this game I guess. Killspam is from my EQ and DAoC days. I should have formatted that post better. The rest was directed towards pirates in general, especially the ones that have posted so far really. I apoligize I misinterpreted your comments as being anti-stab. I'm also pretty sick so I apologize that I am comming off with a rough edge. That's not intentional.
I do empathize with pirates though. I like the fact that you lose your ship and all when you die in eve, it's nice and permanent. I also wish there was a bit more PvP to be honest, but I haven't yet decided what would encourage it in Eve. The fact that most T2 ships don't insure for nearly what they cost is a huge factor imo. I think a better question to tackle would be what would encourage more PvP inside Eve. I don't think people would have as big a problem with stabs if more people actually fought back. Perhaps it's too off topic with this thread but since I play pretty casually I find it hard to part with a battleship or battlecruiser every time I turn around. I spend 100mil on a raven, then insure it for 32mil, I outfit it for 30-40 more mil. And then I get blown up after just a few engagements. Sure I get the insurance money back but I lose the 60-70mil in fittings and insurance.
Now, from the pirate side blowing up a ratter can be great money because they have alot in their inventory, but from the ratter's perspective they will probably get nothing for blowing up a pirate, or at the best a small named fitting. Bounties are supposed to take care of that to a certain extent, but if a bounty is worth killing for, the pirate will usually have a friend kill them and give them the bounty. I don't know what the answer is but it's worth a thought and if the effort was put into that rather than complaining about stabs perhaps both sides could get what they wanted.
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Maliber
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.09.07 23:58:00 -
[56]
Hmm i think this discussion is kinda old and boring, anyways here we go:
Besides the views that stab users and anti stab users dissagree on(see above posts...) The problem is not really the one or occasional 2 stabs on a indy or a ratting ship. The problem lies in the slot layout.
As pointed out before its quite doable to fit in 2 stabs. Ppl who want to catch stab users have to make a serious sacrefice to there pvp setup and combat effectiveness.
To put things into perspective: you have a nice neighberhood pirate. The bloke likes fast ships so he has this nice vagabond(totaly the flaevor of the month so he is ok), its nice and nasty to catch. Now you and your mate want to catch him. And like a real hero the nasty pirate has stabs fitted. Now you will... hmm there's not realy any ship setup to catch him is there. besides another vagabond. cause how to get in range to web and scramble him.... you need either 4 points or dual webs and there is no way you can fit them on any ship together and still go fast. a well lets go to a normal setup then:
hmm now lets see the nasty pirate is out of isk and flies a rax. Your realy ****ed off because he broke up your mining op. how do you catch him with your cruisers?. You have to have a caracel or something with a web and room for 3 points + web and the guy can still warp of(if he's realy lame). Its not about consensual combat. This guy wants to fight and you have no way of getting him because you lack mid slots. you give up you mids to catch someone and he gives up well a bit of his setup to just ignore you. You have to start using 4 point scramblin inties and have a nice big gang because there is no way to catch him.
ppl who say that stabs are necessary for small gangs arnt realy paying attention. stabs are necessary to get away from small gangs. A caracal with a mwd and 5 scramblin points isnt realy a viable setup now is it.
Maliber
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Vim
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2006.09.08 00:03:00 -
[57]
Go read the art of war and then learn that you dont need to blow an enemy up at every engagment to win the war :-)
There is nothing wrong with going in, then withdrawing.
Without penalty? It is a minimum of one low slot going to possible waste.
Should we perhaps do the discussion this way:
Should frigates & battleships both be as easily scrambled?
Would it not make sense for a battleship to have a warp core base strength of 6 already or perhaps we need a heavy warp scrambler to lockdown battleships? etc etc etc...
Leave the stabs, nothing wrong with running away from a fight. However it would be nice to have a grapical or textual represenation when firing your scram of how much the enemy ships warp core is holding out so you can yell: Get your scram on him, one point more to go.
/*
Teach a noob today watch him takedown a battleship tomorrow...
*/ |
Jacob Swell
Caldari
Ars Caelestis
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.08 01:03:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Lets say there is a prearranged 1 v 1, 1 person with 2 stabs, and one person with a warp scrambler.
The person with the warp scrambler will either live, or die, he will not collect any loot, nor will he win anything. He is laying it all on the line. The person with the stabs is not risking anything, he either wins, or he lives. He cannot be killed in this instance.
Whether or not it gimps a setup is irrelevent, as the gimped setup can still live, whereas the opposite setup can die.
Ummm...since the stab guy doesn't have a scram, the other guy can warp out whenever he pleases. 
But assuming equal setup save for stabs, I'd call the guy with the escape option the smarter PvP myself.
I have no problem with people outfitting WCS on PvP ships. It is trade off between WCS and armor/weapon mods/cap & fitting mods. If a person invests all their slots in stabs, I'd like someone explain to me why they shouldn't be allowed to dictate the terms of PvP combat?
I don't subscribe to the idea that combat has to be a all out brawl, and it doesn't have to end with one ship blowing up. Hit-and-Run IMO is a perfectly valid tactic to use in this game.
Really the only people who are complaining about WCS are the PvPers who refuse to invest in more than one Scram because it would ruin their ship build and those players who crave killmails.
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Kyguard
Our Brothers Five
3rd Front Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.08 01:11:00 -
[59]
Give them a penalty to missile / turret / drone rate of fire per stab fitted and make it not stack. This will be great for indies who want to travel and at the same time stop wcs use in combat.
===
God is on the side with the best artillery. |
Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.08 01:33:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Lazy8s on 08/09/2006 01:34:03
Kyguard: You still have the problem of "Why?". Of course you could do this but why? Can you not fit a stab too if you think it is so godly. Forgive the reference here but in Counter Strike everyone complains that the AWP is SOOO overpowered however they never buy one and use it! If it is a noob gun and SO easy to kill everyone with then why not pick up an AWP and show everyone how overpowered it is?
Same thing here. Can you not fit a stab just like the next guy? If they are so overpowered than put one on. If it messes up your ship fittings then you have just proven that they are balanced.
Also, for the vagabond messing up the mining op. 2 things. First, even without stabs he would own miners. Secondly, if you have a whole mining op going then obviously you have enough people to fit 1 scram a piece and catch the guy. Add to that the fact that if you stab as well he can't catch you either so what's the big deal?
I agree it is more of a sacrifice to fit scrams than it is to fit WCSs but so what? Are you saying that if a pirate sacrifices a medium slot he should automatically be able to scram anyone he wishes? Where is the inherant right to be able to scram anyone you please without sacrificing your setup?
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Liet Traep
Minmatar
Black Lance
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.08 01:40:00 -
[61]
They're annoying is all. You get a target dead to rights. He's scrambled, jammed, nossed, guns and drones pounding on him and you're about to get a kill. And then he just warps off. It's eve equivalent of blue balls.
They're not wrong and I've used them myself on many occasions. It's helpful when you're being blobbed by enemies and outnumbered by some ridiculous margin. But they are frustrating to fight against and if you use them too often you will get a bad reputation.
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Hector Huffelbran
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Posted - 2006.09.08 01:53:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Sidraket
Stabs are wrong because killboards have brainwashed people.
^^^what this guy said.
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Scoundrus
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Posted - 2006.09.08 04:53:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Scoundrus on 08/09/2006 04:53:46
alt post
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Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.08 04:55:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Scoundrelus on 08/09/2006 04:55:59
Originally by: Twisted Craze
They are not overpowered. You can't tank well with stabs in your lowslots.
I prefer using none of them, I like using the map and instas far better.
Shield Tank.
Learn2Eve
===============================================
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Core
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.08 05:31:00 -
[65]
7 stabs
150km sniping mach
makes him unstoppable unless you got a good sized gang with carriers
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August Ravensblood
Amarr
Murky Ink
Distant Star Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.08 07:42:00 -
[66]
When the standard tactic in pvp is to scramble your target...it only makes sense to counter a known tactic. Hey, remove stabs and scramblers...! Then we are back to ground zero and people will find something else to complain about.
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Tradesman Mcgee
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Posted - 2006.09.08 08:06:00 -
[67]
Stabs is not overpowered at all, whatsoever. They give you the chance for a tactical retreat - GREAT! Sacrifice some combat ability to be able to withdraw from a fight (or a chance to at least, depending on the opponent ) , fine, totally nothing wrong with that.
This post is full of whiners that cry "baaaaaah he ran away and I didnt get my killmail" ...seriously. If stabs are overpowering, then so is warp scramblers. Add a penalty to stabs? Fine, add one to scramblers as well then.
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Unfamed II
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.08 08:55:00 -
[68]
Wow, losing a medslot isn't penalty enough? Well, 2 or 3 tbh. And still the target might get away.
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Jazz Bo
Caldari
Plan 9 from Outer Space
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Posted - 2006.09.08 09:28:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Jazz Bo on 08/09/2006 09:33:08
The only "unfair" thing about Stabs and Scramblers is that it's easier for shield tankers to fit stabs, and easier for armor tankers to fit scramblers.
And to those that say "you can fit two stabs without gimping your ship", I say bull****.
In terms of fitting reqs, one stab = one damage mod = 20% more/less damage. I call that gimped.
But yes, fully stabbed sniper ships are ridiculous. The completely break the Risk vs. Reward system. "But they can use a covert ops plus four interceptors and whatever to kill me! It's not unbalanced!" Yes it is. If it takes a gang of several specialised ships to catch one bog-standard tech1 Battleship just because it fit 6-8 stabs, something is seriously wrong.
A range penalty of some kind wouldn't hurt.
Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew.... squisssh! |
Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:30:00 -
[70]
Stabs are simply unbalanced due to being a passive module with no real fitting requirements (25 cpu for a named or something in that ballpark) - not even skill requirements, cost or anything. Their not-so-fearsome competition comes from targetted modules with limited range, an activation notice/graphic and capacitor use.
Warp disruptors and scramblers can be countered by : Nos, jamming, speed and of course stabs. Warp core stabilizers however are the only completely automatic hardcounter, leaving the other person with no recourse except maybe ramming (talk about uneven risks at this point).
It's not a matter of 'non-consentual' PvP (You play Eve out of your own accord I hope, hence any PvP is consentual by nature), it's a matter of a terribly balanced module. Along with above problems it goes in slots that don't otherwise aid escaping that much (competes with nanofibers maybe, but those aren't quite as awesome as ECM) and still allow for a viable combat ship. I agree as much as the next guy that every engagement doesn't have to end in one ship exploding, but escape zero effort and no interaction at all is unfun.
And don't even try pulling the adaptation argument - I catch a metric asston of people, due to 3 points and 1man camping with a bubble 80k from a gate in pipes (or using a 5 point Stiletto to tackle belters). I can adapt fine and still catch people, but that doesn't mean the balance of WCS versus disruptors isn't heavily skewed or that combat wouldn't be better all around without the option to pile up the stabs.
Just to offer a suggestion and not go out as mister negativity here, I'd offer up the following : Crank the CPU use way up (50-80) and preferrably make them active modules with an activation graphic (like sensorboosters, but say - yellow) and mild capacitor useage (no more than say 50 cap every 20 seconds).
This won't impact haulers, who have alot of CPU as is. It will however hit snipers hard. It also allows people to see WCS in use, both lending a bit of extra name and shame to the practice as well as being important tactical information. And the activation cost can hinder mid-combat warpouts slightly, or at least introduce a similar difficulty as maintaing a disruptor poses.
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Mathias Orsen
Gold-dust
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:36:00 -
[71]
As a pirate, I had alot of problems with people using WCSs... with the RMR patch it was easy for people to run around with two stabs... we used a scrambler, they compensated with a WCS. we used multipe scramblers.... they compensated with multiple WCS.
We hate WCS... They hate being scrambled..... Honestly speaking, It's hard to miss the balance.
---"What's in your wallet?"---
"There are two kinds of respect, fear and admiration.... I'll take what I can get" |
xlop
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:36:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Jazz Bo
Edited by: Jazz Bo on 08/09/2006 09:33:08
The only "unfair" thing about Stabs and Scramblers is that it's easier for shield tankers to fit stabs, and easier for armor tankers to fit scramblers.
And to those that say "you can fit two stabs without gimping your ship", I say bull****.
In terms of fitting reqs, one stab = one damage mod = 20% more/less damage. I call that gimped.
But yes, fully stabbed sniper ships are ridiculous. The completely break the Risk vs. Reward system. "But they can use a covert ops plus four interceptors and whatever to kill me! It's not unbalanced!" Yes it is. If it takes a gang of several specialised ships to catch one bog-standard tech1 Battleship just because it fit 6-8 stabs, something is seriously wrong.
A range penalty of some kind wouldn't hurt.
stacking penalty my son
once you have those 3 dmg mods, fitting another dmg mod is pointless
the following ships can stab up and commonly do without effecting them one bit
raven [trip bcu t2 and 2 stabs]
vagabond [trip dmg mod and 2 stabs]
sleipnir [3 dmg mods and 1 stab or 2dmg mod and 2 stabs]
cerb [dual dmg mod, and dual wcs]
all snipers [ 3dmg mods, fitting mod if required, tracking mods if required, the rest are stabs]
ect ect
before the dmg mod stacking nerf when 8 dmg mods was even possible, there where very very very few stab users because it acutally was a bad setup, now stabs are viable and dont nerf crap
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Jazz Bo
Caldari
Plan 9 from Outer Space
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:50:00 -
[73]
Originally by: xlop
Originally by: Jazz Bo
Edited by: Jazz Bo on 08/09/2006 09:33:08
The only "unfair" thing about Stabs and Scramblers is that it's easier for shield tankers to fit stabs, and easier for armor tankers to fit scramblers.
And to those that say "you can fit two stabs without gimping your ship", I say bull****.
In terms of fitting reqs, one stab = one damage mod = 20% more/less damage. I call that gimped.
But yes, fully stabbed sniper ships are ridiculous. The completely break the Risk vs. Reward system. "But they can use a covert ops plus four interceptors and whatever to kill me! It's not unbalanced!" Yes it is. If it takes a gang of several specialised ships to catch one bog-standard tech1 Battleship just because it fit 6-8 stabs, something is seriously wrong.
A range penalty of some kind wouldn't hurt.
stacking penalty my son
once you have those 3 dmg mods, fitting another dmg mod is pointless
the following ships can stab up and commonly do without effecting them one bit
raven [trip bcu t2 and 2 stabs]
vagabond [trip dmg mod and 2 stabs]
sleipnir [3 dmg mods and 1 stab or 2dmg mod and 2 stabs]
cerb [dual dmg mod, and dual wcs]
all snipers [ 3dmg mods, fitting mod if required, tracking mods if required, the rest are stabs]
ect ect
Good luck making a half-way decent Raven without any Power Diags or RCUs, or a Vagabond without Nanos.
Or a passive-tanked Cerb that's actually able to tackle and kill something on it's own.
Every time you fit stabs, they will make you suck at something: damage, defense, or mobility. Usually resulting in you having to run from anything your own size.
Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew.... squisssh! |
Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:57:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Mathias Orsen
We hate WCS... They hate being scrambled..... Honestly speaking, It's hard to miss the balance.
qft
WCS on anything other than Caldari = gimped setup .. that includes haulers
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Soyemia
Minmatar
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:58:00 -
[75]
Peapole say; "When you fit em you shouldnt be going to fight, you should be fitted for running"
I do indeed fit 2 stabs on rupture. True. But thats when I solo in 20j from own area, I indeed are fitted for running, and have saved my ass so many times from BloB. It indeed result me to run from equally sized ships. That doesnt gimp your ship? It does, yet better to be alive and kil lfrigs & haulers than die to every BloB, as im many times in hostile station systems.
Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes |
Justice Bringer
Minmatar
United Univers
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Posted - 2006.09.08 13:16:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Testicular Testes
It's not a matter of 'non-consentual' PvP (You play Eve out of your own accord I hope, hence any PvP is consentual by nature).......
Just because I play EVE doesn't give anyone the right to attack me regardless of the fact that I mainly mission run.
If I do venture into < 0.5 space than I will get a warning saying that it is unsafe to travel there, but still that doesn't mean I consent to be ganged by people sitting on the other side of the gate after I land from warp.
If you want ot attack someone in low sec, then it's just as easy to open up a chat window and challenge him, but oh no that would be too easy and so you take the cowards way out and just attack.
When they warp off, you then complain that they didn't stand there to trade blows with you when all they are doing is going about their own business.
Stabs are fine on any ship, if that's what the pilots want to fit on them.
Justice 
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Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.09.08 13:48:00 -
[77]
there is nothing wrong with them at all. that is like saying using torps, ew, or cargo expanders on your ships is wrong. its in the game.
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.09.08 14:05:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Justice Bringer
Originally by: Testicular Testes
It's not a matter of 'non-consentual' PvP (You play Eve out of your own accord I hope, hence any PvP is consentual by nature).......
Just because I play EVE doesn't give anyone the right to attack me regardless of the fact that I mainly mission run.
This is where you're fundamentally wrong. Playing EvE does mean you consent to combat along with any other form of interaction. That's trading, conversing and blowing eachother up. No matter what you do, you're dabbling in the shared ressource pool with everybody else.
Quote:
If I do venture into < 0.5 space than I will get a warning saying that it is unsafe to travel there, but still that doesn't mean I consent to be ganged by people sitting on the other side of the gate after I land from warp.
Even launching in 1.0 you consent to being 'ganged' by as many people as can be bothered to make you explode. That's the nature of a multiplayer game, get with the program and watch your back or stop posting drivel.
Quote:
If you want ot attack someone in low sec, then it's just as easy to open up a chat window and challenge him, but oh no that would be too easy and so you take the cowards way out and just attack.
Quoted for comedy.
Quote:
When they warp off, you then complain that they didn't stand there to trade blows with you when all they are doing is going about their own business.
Stabs are fine on any ship, if that's what the pilots want to fit on them.
This isn't a discussion about whether the ability to warp out is necessarily sensible but whether warpcore stabilizers have proper opportunity costs in-line with other modules (which they really don't).
Just because you enjoy warping out doesn't mean hilariously powerful stabs aren't broken.
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Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.08 17:50:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Lazy8s on 08/09/2006 17:52:40
^^ To the poster above me.....
This discussion is not about the fitting requirements of stabs. Please read the title again. It is "Why are stabs wrong?" That is an open ended question, thus anyone can post their opinion and be on topic.
Secondly, explain to me how stabs are "hilariously powerful". All the whiners here are posting about how "overpowered" or "powerful" stabs are. What is "hilariously powerful" about running away? "Hilariously powerful" insinuates that someone with stabs is more powerful than someone without them. If I put all stabs in my lowslots and you fit none, would your ship not be far better equiped for combat? By definition stabs make you less powerful, unless you consider retreating a powerful act. You may not like someone's ability to run away from you but that is not a powerful thing to to.
Also, aparently PvP is not something CCP intended for you to consent to every time you got on or they would not have added stabs to the game. By adding stabs they are asserting that the average pilot should be able to choose not to consent to PvP if they are willing to sacrifice some of their setup to do so. Is it possible that a dozen people will jump you in Jita, yes of course, but what is the likelyhood? The existence of stabs means the concept that pirates should be able to choose their victims and that people should stay and fight is flawed. Certainly cataclysmic circumstances may occur to where PvP becomes unavoidable, but CCP has insinuated that they itend for most common PvP encounters to be avoidable by adding stabs to the game.
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Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers
Blood of the Innocents
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Posted - 2006.09.08 18:14:00 -
[80]
I don't believe you should be able to warp scramble while packing WCS, it takes away part of the risk vs. reward. You want to lock someone down? then stick your neck out...
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- Office Linebacker -
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ashher
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Posted - 2006.09.08 18:48:00 -
[81]
Simple truth is that on certain ships fitting a set of wcs does not gimp ur set-up that much so you want to fight but are not willing to risk ur ship
You should make a choice ie if you want to fit wcs thats ur choice but it should then gimp ur set-up for PVP, easy answer would be it should take 10% of ur CPU per stab
on a hauler indy ur have shed loads of CPU so will have no problems and thus wont affect those fit for running, the point now is if you want to fit for pvp you will struggle to fit a good damage or tank set-up on frig/cruiser/bs if you want to fit a few wcs
as your cpu will be to low to fit - so its a fine balance between a good pvp set-up and a low risk stabbed set-up - you cant have your cake and eat it which is what most people are complaining about
U make a choice fit to run or fit to fight not both which presently is possible on cetain ships eg raven
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TheKiller8
Caldari
S.A.S
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Posted - 2006.09.12 00:36:00 -
[82]
CLICK ME! CLICK ME! CLICK ME! CLICK ME! |
Deep Shadows
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Posted - 2006.09.12 00:45:00 -
[83]
Without stabs I would have died mining many times more than I already have...
***
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DHorner
Caldari
Scout And Mining inc
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Posted - 2006.09.16 08:15:00 -
[84]
It's funny how this arguement goes on and on. Most of the people making the arguement that stabs are wrong are those who rarely need them. Unfortunately this games isn't only played by 25 million skill point players. Younger players wouldn't have a chance anywhere without warp stabs. I ran a mission in a .4 system tonight that was gate camped by a command ship, recon ship, and 3 BS's. The only players who lived had stabs in. Pirates care about the kill mail more than they do the challenge. What in the He!! is fun about ganking a 6 week old player in a frig? Nerfing the stab will hurt the noob players the most because they don't have the skill points or knowledge to make it out of a PVP situation. There is already a nerf, I would have to waste four low slots with stabs to counter your two low slots with +2 scrams. I am tired of the complaining when I go through a gate camp of 4 or 5 ships and all I here is how weak I am because I have stabs. You have got to be kidding me, I just ran in a cruiser instead of going toe to toe with several BS's and all they can worry about is my stabs.
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Lucas Smaise
x13
Barracudas.
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Posted - 2006.09.16 08:19:00 -
[85]
Stabs are no problem. You just fit against it. In our current campaign Stabs is nr. 2 or 3 most destoyed item.
If you dont want to loose your target fit 2x20km or 2x7.5.
Lucas Smaise
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samuel222
Amarr
Do Or Die And Live Or Try
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Posted - 2006.09.16 08:19:00 -
[86]
stabs make me cry
especially dual stabbed caracals and the like
u people make me cry and my curse cry
___________________________
Now thats a face for radio!
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Garan Savlar
Gallente
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.16 08:42:00 -
[87]
Stabs are fine ... there are plenty of people in Eve who don't want to join in PvP and yet still have to make a living. Stabs are their insurance that they may be able to do it without pirates ganking them. If you're a PvPer, get used to it ... or find another occupation.
I think you'll find that most of the anti-stab posters on this and other similar threads are pirates who are whining that their latest "easy" kill is swiftly disappearing over the horizon laughing and giving them the finger. Which is pretty rich coming from a bunch of characters who aren't exactly reknowned for their bravery when the roles are reversed.
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Faugh-A-Ballaugh! |
Abye
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Posted - 2006.09.16 11:12:00 -
[88]
I think the biggest problem is that stabs are WAY easier to fit than scramblers.
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HellsRazor
Caldari
FACTA NON VERBA
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Posted - 2006.09.16 11:14:00 -
[89]
Edited by: HellsRazor on 16/09/2006 11:14:58
im not gunna read all of this.. anyways
STABS should be HIGH SLOT mod :)
o and each stam -15% speed :)
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The Doct0r
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.16 11:27:00 -
[90]
After reading through this post I have (as many will) come to the following conclusion:
1) players want the option to fit a module so they are able to scramble targets without them being able to get away.
2) players want the option to fit a module to get away from scramblers .
Notice anything?
Balance perhaps?
Now even i agree that fitting more than 1 wcs is no way to play, but i feel the same for fitting scramblers.
So what to do?
simple:
only 1 WCS module allowed per ship and....
only 1 scrambler fitted per ship
if you run into a gang ur gonna be wtfbbqtoast, but as nearly all 0.0 pilots use bm's then travel isn't go to be much of a problem.
(there is more - just can't be a*sed to type it all in, but will edit the post later to explain more)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Always ready to perform!!!! *cough*
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Always back up comments with hard facts |
LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.16 11:33:00 -
[91]
nothing, apart from great benefit and 0 penalty. Or in other words, overpowered with current state of eve, when safespots are really safe as long as you cba to warp every minute or so. (and 3 ss are enough). Your tank usually cannot survive t2 bs shooting you - better to get away.
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Looking for frentix? Mail me.
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madaluap
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.09.16 11:57:00 -
[92]
This is so easy to solve...
every -1 or -2 (scramblers) should be affected by stabs..
Fit 2 stabs and fit 1 7.5 scram and you have 0 points scramstrenght.
Also give each stab a penalty of -10% to lockingspeed, this wont effect PVE setups or travelsetups.
But it will effect those 220K snipers with stabs and will mean people that solo wont fit stabs anymore.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.16 12:20:00 -
[93]
Those wcs / scram equations are moot. Most people die coz they get stiletto in their back door with 6 points. That 1 scrambler on ship that has wcs isn't an issue really.
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Looking for frentix? Mail me.
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carleyjones
Caldari
Blood and Silver
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Posted - 2006.09.16 13:24:00 -
[94]
as long as people use scramblers, then people will use wcs and since pvp ships seem to be fitted with more scrams or become dedicated tacklers then more wcs are being fitted
the one scrambler or wcs per ship is one way around it i guess. i dont have a problem with peeps using wcs tho it does suck when they fit more than one.
another option maybe is to change the way they work slightly. perhaps wcs could increase the time it takes to enter warp and maybe give scramblers cycles similar to ecm?
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Kojiami
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Posted - 2006.09.16 16:35:00 -
[95]
/noob: What are stabs?
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Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.09.16 17:59:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 16/09/2006 18:00:21
Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 16/09/2006 17:59:33
Originally by: Kojiami
/noob: What are stabs?
stabs = WCS, Warp Core Stabilizer ... a passive lowslot module that cancels out the effect of scramblers (remember - med-slot module ... either in a low-cap usage 7k5 variant ... or in a high-cap usage 20k version - which stops non-WCS-fitted ships from warping away)
problem is - WCS don't have any major drawback for a pvp-fitting. yeah - it might take a lowslot where a damagemod/tankmod could have been placed - but guess what? you won't need necessarily to gank when using a WCS ... as the buddies of your target aren't that dangerous to you anymore, because of their harder time in tackling you. regarding tank - it's the same in green. with a WCS you won't stick around that long enough that you would need a tank.
WCS needs no cap and it's passive - doesn't need activation by the player.
while scrams need activation by the player and need cap - both are things that make the scrambling effect balanced - because a you need to get a lock at a target, need to be in scramblingrange and you need to have enough cap to support the scrambler.
what can be done against scrambler? EWAR (jamming, sensor dampening), NOS, web/drones/other weapons to kill the tackler (if it's not a swarm it works quite well)
what can be done against WCS? bring friends, dedicated tackler fitting (which is on some ships not possible), bring friends with dedicated tackler fitting, and in 0.0 also warp disruptor bubbles and interdictor spheres.
___________________
-Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.09.16 18:50:00 -
[97]
Make WCS use 50 CPU. There.
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The Armin
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2006.09.16 19:21:00 -
[98]
Don't think you should edit fitting req's on em, I don't mind ppl placing a wcs or four on their Sigils tbh. I mind those fitting two on a vagabond. 50% penalty to scan resolution pr. stab. <- yarr ?
(Means your targeting range rly gets gimped :D Srsly :D)
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.09.16 19:38:00 -
[99]
Originally by: The Armin
Don't think you should edit fitting req's on em, I don't mind ppl placing a wcs or four on their Sigils tbh. I mind those fitting two on a vagabond. 50% penalty to scan resolution pr. stab. <- yarr ?
(Means your targeting range rly gets gimped :D Srsly :D)
No thats stupid. Sry.
And an indy can fit wcs just fine, even if they used 100 CPU, so...
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NIkis
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Posted - 2006.09.16 20:36:00 -
[100]
wcs are fine as they are
for those who complain they dont eat cap.... or use too small CPU, well you have a 2 point scram .. and 2 point wcs arent exactly ingame yet
balance is something that works both ways
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AKULA UrQuan
Caldari
STK Scientific
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.16 21:33:00 -
[101]
The problem is people who think WCS and armor reppers are the only two low slot mods in the game.
Originally by: Wrangler
Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
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