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Why are stabs wrong?

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Liet Traep Minmatar Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.08 01:40:00 - [61] They're annoying is all. You get a target dead to rights. He's scrambled, jammed, nossed, guns and drones pounding on him and you're about to get a kill. And then he just warps off. It's eve equivalent of blue balls. They're not wrong and I've used them myself on many occasions. It's helpful when you're being blobbed by enemies and outnumbered by some ridiculous margin. But they are frustrating to fight against and if you use them too often you will get a bad reputation.
Hector Huffelbran	Posted - 2006.09.08 01:53:00 - [62] Originally by: Sidraket Stabs are wrong because killboards have brainwashed people. ^^^what this guy said.
Scoundrus	Posted - 2006.09.08 04:53:00 - [63] Edited by: Scoundrus on 08/09/2006 04:53:46 alt post
Scoundrelus The Black Fleet Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.08 04:55:00 - [64] Edited by: Scoundrelus on 08/09/2006 04:55:59 Originally by: Twisted Craze They are not overpowered. You can't tank well with stabs in your lowslots. I prefer using none of them, I like using the map and instas far better. Shield Tank. Learn2Eve ===============================================
Core Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.08 05:31:00 - [65] 7 stabs 150km sniping mach makes him unstoppable unless you got a good sized gang with carriers
August Ravensblood Amarr Murky Ink Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.08 07:42:00 - [66] When the standard tactic in pvp is to scramble your target...it only makes sense to counter a known tactic. Hey, remove stabs and scramblers...! Then we are back to ground zero and people will find something else to complain about.
Tradesman Mcgee	Posted - 2006.09.08 08:06:00 - [67] Stabs is not overpowered at all, whatsoever. They give you the chance for a tactical retreat - GREAT! Sacrifice some combat ability to be able to withdraw from a fight (or a chance to at least, depending on the opponent ) , fine, totally nothing wrong with that. This post is full of whiners that cry "baaaaaah he ran away and I didnt get my killmail" ...seriously. If stabs are overpowering, then so is warp scramblers. Add a penalty to stabs? Fine, add one to scramblers as well then.
Unfamed II FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.08 08:55:00 - [68] Wow, losing a medslot isn't penalty enough? Well, 2 or 3 tbh. And still the target might get away.
Jazz Bo Caldari Plan 9 from Outer Space	Posted - 2006.09.08 09:28:00 - [69] Edited by: Jazz Bo on 08/09/2006 09:33:08 The only "unfair" thing about Stabs and Scramblers is that it's easier for shield tankers to fit stabs, and easier for armor tankers to fit scramblers. And to those that say "you can fit two stabs without gimping your ship", I say bull****. In terms of fitting reqs, one stab = one damage mod = 20% more/less damage. I call that gimped. But yes, fully stabbed sniper ships are ridiculous. The completely break the Risk vs. Reward system. "But they can use a covert ops plus four interceptors and whatever to kill me! It's not unbalanced!" Yes it is. If it takes a gang of several specialised ships to catch one bog-standard tech1 Battleship just because it fit 6-8 stabs, something is seriously wrong. A range penalty of some kind wouldn't hurt. Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew.... squisssh!
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:30:00 - [70] Stabs are simply unbalanced due to being a passive module with no real fitting requirements (25 cpu for a named or something in that ballpark) - not even skill requirements, cost or anything. Their not-so-fearsome competition comes from targetted modules with limited range, an activation notice/graphic and capacitor use. Warp disruptors and scramblers can be countered by : Nos, jamming, speed and of course stabs. Warp core stabilizers however are the only completely automatic hardcounter, leaving the other person with no recourse except maybe ramming (talk about uneven risks at this point). It's not a matter of 'non-consentual' PvP (You play Eve out of your own accord I hope, hence any PvP is consentual by nature), it's a matter of a terribly balanced module. Along with above problems it goes in slots that don't otherwise aid escaping that much (competes with nanofibers maybe, but those aren't quite as awesome as ECM) and still allow for a viable combat ship. I agree as much as the next guy that every engagement doesn't have to end in one ship exploding, but escape zero effort and no interaction at all is unfun. And don't even try pulling the adaptation argument - I catch a metric asston of people, due to 3 points and 1man camping with a bubble 80k from a gate in pipes (or using a 5 point Stiletto to tackle belters). I can adapt fine and still catch people, but that doesn't mean the balance of WCS versus disruptors isn't heavily skewed or that combat wouldn't be better all around without the option to pile up the stabs. Just to offer a suggestion and not go out as mister negativity here, I'd offer up the following : Crank the CPU use way up (50-80) and preferrably make them active modules with an activation graphic (like sensorboosters, but say - yellow) and mild capacitor useage (no more than say 50 cap every 20 seconds). This won't impact haulers, who have alot of CPU as is. It will however hit snipers hard. It also allows people to see WCS in use, both lending a bit of extra name and shame to the practice as well as being important tactical information. And the activation cost can hinder mid-combat warpouts slightly, or at least introduce a similar difficulty as maintaing a disruptor poses.
Mathias Orsen Gold-dust	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:36:00 - [71] As a pirate, I had alot of problems with people using WCSs... with the RMR patch it was easy for people to run around with two stabs... we used a scrambler, they compensated with a WCS. we used multipe scramblers.... they compensated with multiple WCS. We hate WCS... They hate being scrambled..... Honestly speaking, It's hard to miss the balance. ---"What's in your wallet?"--- "There are two kinds of respect, fear and admiration.... I'll take what I can get"
xlop Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:36:00 - [72] Originally by: Jazz Bo Edited by: Jazz Bo on 08/09/2006 09:33:08 The only "unfair" thing about Stabs and Scramblers is that it's easier for shield tankers to fit stabs, and easier for armor tankers to fit scramblers. And to those that say "you can fit two stabs without gimping your ship", I say bull****. In terms of fitting reqs, one stab = one damage mod = 20% more/less damage. I call that gimped. But yes, fully stabbed sniper ships are ridiculous. The completely break the Risk vs. Reward system. "But they can use a covert ops plus four interceptors and whatever to kill me! It's not unbalanced!" Yes it is. If it takes a gang of several specialised ships to catch one bog-standard tech1 Battleship just because it fit 6-8 stabs, something is seriously wrong. A range penalty of some kind wouldn't hurt. stacking penalty my son once you have those 3 dmg mods, fitting another dmg mod is pointless the following ships can stab up and commonly do without effecting them one bit raven [trip bcu t2 and 2 stabs] vagabond [trip dmg mod and 2 stabs] sleipnir [3 dmg mods and 1 stab or 2dmg mod and 2 stabs] cerb [dual dmg mod, and dual wcs] all snipers [ 3dmg mods, fitting mod if required, tracking mods if required, the rest are stabs] ect ect before the dmg mod stacking nerf when 8 dmg mods was even possible, there where very very very few stab users because it acutally was a bad setup, now stabs are viable and dont nerf crap
Jazz Bo Caldari Plan 9 from Outer Space	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:50:00 - [73] Originally by: xlop Originally by: Jazz Bo Edited by: Jazz Bo on 08/09/2006 09:33:08 The only "unfair" thing about Stabs and Scramblers is that it's easier for shield tankers to fit stabs, and easier for armor tankers to fit scramblers. And to those that say "you can fit two stabs without gimping your ship", I say bull**. In terms of fitting reqs, one stab = one damage mod = 20% more/less damage. I call that gimped. But yes, fully stabbed sniper ships are ridiculous. The completely break the Risk vs. Reward system. "But they can use a covert ops plus four interceptors and whatever to kill me! It's not unbalanced!" Yes it is. If it takes a gang of several specialised ships to catch one bog-standard tech1 Battleship just because it fit 6-8 stabs, something is seriously wrong. A range penalty of some kind wouldn't hurt. stacking penalty my son once you have those 3 dmg mods, fitting another dmg mod is pointless the following ships can stab up and commonly do without effecting them one bit raven [trip bcu t2 and 2 stabs] vagabond [trip dmg mod and 2 stabs] sleipnir [3 dmg mods and 1 stab or 2dmg mod and 2 stabs] cerb [dual dmg mod, and dual wcs] all snipers [ 3dmg mods, fitting mod if required, tracking mods if required, the rest are stabs] ect ect Good luck making a half-way decent Raven without any Power Diags or RCUs, or a Vagabond without Nanos. Or a passive-tanked Cerb that's actually able to tackle and** kill something on it's own. Every time you fit stabs, they will make you suck at something: damage, defense, or mobility. Usually resulting in you having to run from anything your own size. Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew.... squisssh!
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:57:00 - [74] Originally by: Mathias Orsen We hate WCS... They hate being scrambled..... Honestly speaking, It's hard to miss the balance. qft WCS on anything other than Caldari = gimped setup .. that includes haulers
Soyemia Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:58:00 - [75] Peapole say; "When you fit em you shouldnt be going to fight, you should be fitted for running" I do indeed fit 2 stabs on rupture. True. But thats when I solo in 20j from own area, I indeed are fitted for running, and have saved my ass so many times from BloB. It indeed result me to run from equally sized ships. That doesnt gimp your ship? It does, yet better to be alive and kil lfrigs & haulers than die to every BloB, as im many times in hostile station systems. Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Justice Bringer Minmatar United Univers	Posted - 2006.09.08 13:16:00 - [76] Originally by: Testicular Testes It's not a matter of 'non-consentual' PvP (You play Eve out of your own accord I hope, hence any PvP is consentual by nature)....... Just because I play EVE doesn't give anyone the right to attack me regardless of the fact that I mainly mission run. If I do venture into < 0.5 space than I will get a warning saying that it is unsafe to travel there, but still that doesn't mean I consent to be ganged by people sitting on the other side of the gate after I land from warp. If you want ot attack someone in low sec, then it's just as easy to open up a chat window and challenge him, but oh no that would be too easy and so you take the cowards way out and just attack. When they warp off, you then complain that they didn't stand there to trade blows with you when all they are doing is going about their own business. Stabs are fine on any ship, if that's what the pilots want to fit on them. Justice
Martinez Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.09.08 13:48:00 - [77] there is nothing wrong with them at all. that is like saying using torps, ew, or cargo expanders on your ships is wrong. its in the game.
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.09.08 14:05:00 - [78] Originally by: Justice Bringer Originally by: Testicular Testes It's not a matter of 'non-consentual' PvP (You play Eve out of your own accord I hope, hence any PvP is consentual by nature)....... Just because I play EVE doesn't give anyone the right to attack me regardless of the fact that I mainly mission run. This is where you're fundamentally wrong. Playing EvE does mean you consent to combat along with any other form of interaction. That's trading, conversing and blowing eachother up. No matter what you do, you're dabbling in the shared ressource pool with everybody else. Quote: If I do venture into < 0.5 space than I will get a warning saying that it is unsafe to travel there, but still that doesn't mean I consent to be ganged by people sitting on the other side of the gate after I land from warp. Even launching in 1.0 you consent to being 'ganged' by as many people as can be bothered to make you explode. That's the nature of a multiplayer game, get with the program and watch your back or stop posting drivel. Quote: If you want ot attack someone in low sec, then it's just as easy to open up a chat window and challenge him, but oh no that would be too easy and so you take the cowards way out and just attack. Quoted for comedy. Quote: When they warp off, you then complain that they didn't stand there to trade blows with you when all they are doing is going about their own business. Stabs are fine on any ship, if that's what the pilots want to fit on them. This isn't a discussion about whether the ability to warp out is necessarily sensible but whether warpcore stabilizers have proper opportunity costs in-line with other modules (which they really don't). Just because you enjoy warping out doesn't mean hilariously powerful stabs aren't broken.
Lazy8s	Posted - 2006.09.08 17:50:00 - [79] Edited by: Lazy8s on 08/09/2006 17:52:40 ^^ To the poster above me..... This discussion is not about the fitting requirements of stabs. Please read the title again. It is "Why are stabs wrong?" That is an open ended question, thus anyone can post their opinion and be on topic. Secondly, explain to me how stabs are "hilariously powerful". All the whiners here are posting about how "overpowered" or "powerful" stabs are. What is "hilariously powerful" about running away? "Hilariously powerful" insinuates that someone with stabs is more powerful than someone without them. If I put all stabs in my lowslots and you fit none, would your ship not be far better equiped for combat? By definition stabs make you less powerful, unless you consider retreating a powerful act. You may not like someone's ability to run away from you but that is not a powerful thing to to. Also, aparently PvP is not something CCP intended for you to consent to every time you got on or they would not have added stabs to the game. By adding stabs they are asserting that the average pilot should be able to choose not to consent to PvP if they are willing to sacrifice some of their setup to do so. Is it possible that a dozen people will jump you in Jita, yes of course, but what is the likelyhood? The existence of stabs means the concept that pirates should be able to choose their victims and that people should stay and fight is flawed. Certainly cataclysmic circumstances may occur to where PvP becomes unavoidable, but CCP has insinuated that they itend for most common PvP encounters to be avoidable by adding stabs to the game.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.08 18:14:00 - [80] I don't believe you should be able to warp scramble while packing WCS, it takes away part of the risk vs. reward. You want to lock someone down? then stick your neck out... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
ashher	Posted - 2006.09.08 18:48:00 - [81] Simple truth is that on certain ships fitting a set of wcs does not gimp ur set-up that much so you want to fight but are not willing to risk ur ship You should make a choice ie if you want to fit wcs thats ur choice but it should then gimp ur set-up for PVP, easy answer would be it should take 10% of ur CPU per stab on a hauler indy ur have shed loads of CPU so will have no problems and thus wont affect those fit for running, the point now is if you want to fit for pvp you will struggle to fit a good damage or tank set-up on frig/cruiser/bs if you want to fit a few wcs as your cpu will be to low to fit - so its a fine balance between a good pvp set-up and a low risk stabbed set-up - you cant have your cake and eat it which is what most people are complaining about U make a choice fit to run or fit to fight not both which presently is possible on cetain ships eg raven
TheKiller8 Caldari S.A.S	Posted - 2006.09.12 00:36:00 - [82] CLICK ME! CLICK ME! CLICK ME! CLICK ME!
Deep Shadows	Posted - 2006.09.12 00:45:00 - [83] Without stabs I would have died mining many times more than I already have... ***
DHorner Caldari Scout And Mining inc	Posted - 2006.09.16 08:15:00 - [84] It's funny how this arguement goes on and on. Most of the people making the arguement that stabs are wrong are those who rarely need them. Unfortunately this games isn't only played by 25 million skill point players. Younger players wouldn't have a chance anywhere without warp stabs. I ran a mission in a .4 system tonight that was gate camped by a command ship, recon ship, and 3 BS's. The only players who lived had stabs in. Pirates care about the kill mail more than they do the challenge. What in the He!! is fun about ganking a 6 week old player in a frig? Nerfing the stab will hurt the noob players the most because they don't have the skill points or knowledge to make it out of a PVP situation. There is already a nerf, I would have to waste four low slots with stabs to counter your two low slots with +2 scrams. I am tired of the complaining when I go through a gate camp of 4 or 5 ships and all I here is how weak I am because I have stabs. You have got to be kidding me, I just ran in a cruiser instead of going toe to toe with several BS's and all they can worry about is my stabs.
Lucas Smaise x13 Barracudas.	Posted - 2006.09.16 08:19:00 - [85] Stabs are no problem. You just fit against it. In our current campaign Stabs is nr. 2 or 3 most destoyed item. If you dont want to loose your target fit 2x20km or 2x7.5. Lucas Smaise
samuel222 Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2006.09.16 08:19:00 - [86] stabs make me cry especially dual stabbed caracals and the like u people make me cry and my curse cry ___________________________ Now thats a face for radio!
Garan Savlar Gallente Ascendant Strategies Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.16 08:42:00 - [87] Stabs are fine ... there are plenty of people in Eve who don't want to join in PvP and yet still have to make a living. Stabs are their insurance that they may be able to do it without pirates ganking them. If you're a PvPer, get used to it ... or find another occupation. I think you'll find that most of the anti-stab posters on this and other similar threads are pirates who are whining that their latest "easy" kill is swiftly disappearing over the horizon laughing and giving them the finger. Which is pretty rich coming from a bunch of characters who aren't exactly reknowned for their bravery when the roles are reversed. ------------------------------------------------ Faugh-A-Ballaugh!
Abye	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:12:00 - [88] I think the biggest problem is that stabs are WAY easier to fit than scramblers.
HellsRazor Caldari FACTA NON VERBA	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:14:00 - [89] Edited by: HellsRazor on 16/09/2006 11:14:58 im not gunna read all of this.. anyways STABS should be HIGH SLOT mod :) o and each stam -15% speed :)
The Doct0r Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:27:00 - [90] After reading through this post I have (as many will) come to the following conclusion: 1) players want the option to fit a module so they are able to scramble targets without them being able to get away. 2) players want the option to fit a module to get away from scramblers . Notice anything? Balance perhaps? Now even i agree that fitting more than 1 wcs is no way to play, but i feel the same for fitting scramblers. So what to do? simple: only 1 WCS module allowed per ship and.... only 1 scrambler fitted per ship if you run into a gang ur gonna be wtfbbqtoast, but as nearly all 0.0 pilots use bm's then travel isn't go to be much of a problem. (there is more - just can't be ased to type it all in, but will edit the post later to explain more) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Always ready to perform!!!! cough _______________________________________ Always back up comments with hard facts

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