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Why are stabs wrong?

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Soyemia Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:12:00 - [1] Discuss, I DO NOT want arguments like "THEY ARE COWARDISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111". I wanna arguments why they are overpowered, we're not talking about indys.. Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:14:00 - [2] they are ok end . Hey i get paid to be ebil - Xorus So how much you want for the ebil goat??-Tirg I don't - Imz0r
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:16:00 - [3] Originally by: Soyemia Discuss, I DO NOT want arguments like "THEY ARE COWARDISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111". I wanna arguments why they are overpowered, we're not talking about indys.. I think they're annoying and shouldn't be used on combat ships but not really overpowered. When used in travel setups I don't mind them. Aside from that they are to me just like ECM - used mainly by the incompetent to give them the advantage that their brain is unable to supply. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
coldrieve	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:22:00 - [4] i once had a big arguement with some player about that. they claimed WCS was like an "i win button" because the target could get away. his arguement was that say if you are mining in 0.0. you should get ganked and having the WCS allowed the miner to get away from a gank. hence there was no "high risk" for the high reward of mining in 0.0 he also complained that people can pick a fight and then run away. what's really wrong with that? some player attacks you and you turn the tables on him and he runs. you've won! i don't understand why some players assume it is their right to warp scramble you without you being able to do anything about it. the guy also complained that a ship with multi WCS required more ships to lock it down. thinking about it now, i don't know if he never realised that you can fit more than one scrambler or disruptor on your ship to counter someone with more than 1 WCS. i have had 2 - 3 WCS on my ships and still got ganked. i personally don't think anything is wrong with WCS. CCP can get rid of it once they get rid of scramblers/disruptors. it is like counter and counter counter wcs vs scramblers/disruptors ECM vs ECCM dampeners vs sensor boosters all in all pretty fair i think. i know this, i rat in 0.0 and i wont be caught without at least 2 x WCS on my ship. if someone wants to lock me down, then let him fit 3 x disruptors etc
Ginaz Veto.	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:32:00 - [5] Basicly, stabs are no problem. Problem are stabs + pvp. Stabs purpose is to protect yourself from nonconsentual (sp?) pvp. That's fine on every barge, indy and whatever. Stabs are not made to be win-win button in pvp, especially duels. They are way too easy to include into most pvp setup. Nobody complains about barges, exhumers, haulers and npcing/mining peeps fitting stabs. It's the nonsense that you can fit 2 stabs (or more) on deimos, vagabond, sleipnir, almost every caldari ship and still pvp with them decently. Video: 'Behind enemy lines' Queen of the Amazones
Outa Rileau	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:32:00 - [6] Depends on what they are used for, and how many... I hate them mainly in combat. Although they may cost you a low slot and somewhat screw up your setup, you still got the "IWIN", won't die button, because you will just warp out if a fight gets out of hand. It's like one big "HARHAR I R INVINCIBLE" module, that's why it's overpowered and wrong. ------------------------- Getting Sig Removed / Rank 8 / SP: 762039 of 2048000
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:34:00 - [7] Stabs are fine. They gimp your setup and make you less effective in combet. I like my opponents to be less effective. People need to realize that running != winning. It means they chickened out when you started tearing them up. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
coldrieve	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:35:00 - [8] you can still get webbed and once webbed you can't warp out happened to me... i approached a gate in 0.0 inty locks on and trieds to scramble...doesn't work. his friends jump in and they web me and i die. webbing against wcs fitted ships work i guess if you can web them fast enough and get their speed below the 80% (i think) max speed u need for warp
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:37:00 - [9] Originally by: coldrieve you can still get webbed and once webbed you can't warp out happened to me... i approached a gate in 0.0 inty locks on and trieds to scramble...doesn't work. his friends jump in and they web me and i die. webbing against wcs fitted ships work i guess if you can web them fast enough and get their speed below the 80% (i think) max speed u need for warp Not quite. You can warp at even 1m/s but the slow speed make it take forever for you to align. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Pestillence Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:38:00 - [10] Originally by: coldrieve you can still get webbed and once webbed you can't warp out happened to me... i approached a gate in 0.0 inty locks on and trieds to scramble...doesn't work. his friends jump in and they web me and i die. webbing against wcs fitted ships work i guess if you can web them fast enough and get their speed below the 80% (i think) max speed u need for warp You warp when you hit 75% of your max velocity. If your max velocity is 10m/s because you are webbed you will warp when your speed reaches 7.5m/s So basically webbing someone makes them reach warp faster Off topic but meh.
Outa Rileau	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:39:00 - [11] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix People need to realize that running != winning. It means they chickened out when you started tearing them up. Kind of hard to make money from pvp if you can't kill anything Originally by: coldrieve you can still get webbed and once webbed you can't warp out happened to me... i approached a gate in 0.0 inty locks on and trieds to scramble...doesn't work. his friends jump in and they web me and i die. webbing against wcs fitted ships work i guess if you can web them fast enough and get their speed below the 80% (i think) max speed u need for warp If you get webbed below your regular 80% speed, you can still warp at 80% of your current webbed speed. You might be a bit slower to align though, but you will warp instantly if already aligned. ------------------------- Getting Sig Removed / Rank 8 / SP: 762039 of 2048000
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:46:00 - [12] stabs dumb down the game. for instance... if your target has a stab and you have just 1 point of scram he gets away. so you put on 2 points... but now he has 2 stabs.. u put on 4 scramblers for a ridiculous 8 points and you run across someone who isnt fitting stabs and kicks your ass because he hasnt gimped his setup. Basicly instead of tinkering with mods and getting your skills and setup to kick butt it comes down to who has more stabs or points of warp scrambling. and if you participate in anything in 0.0 you should either 1) be ready to pvp or 2) have freinds with you to pvp and save your butt while you mine. point being this game should be about skill ( points and gaming ability ) instead of playing rock paper scissors with warp stabs and scramblers. "my 6 stabs beats your 3 points of scramble haha" point being it should be harder for someone to get away not the other weay around. [/rant]
Derrys Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Not quite. You can warp at even 1m/s but the slow speed make it take forever for you to align. Not quite. Webbers don't affect maneuvering or acceleration. What happens is that, after you're webbed, it takes a while for your speed to drop down to its new level. In that time, you're going too fast to warp. Your speed needs to be within a certain range to warp, and right after you're webbed you're briefly out of that range. -- Admiral Derrys Otireya Commander, Fleet Operations, Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Fleet Admiral, Kimotoro Directive
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.06 22:23:00 - [14] Look at the ships setup section, if you fit one WCS your ship will be better than every ship in the setups section that only has 1 disruptor in a 1vs1.
Jude Kopenhagen Caldari Mordu's Elite	Posted - 2006.09.06 22:48:00 - [15] I do not believe stabs are wrong, they have a counter just like everything else. We have faced opponentes with multible stabs, and have been able to kill every one of them, however it required us to addapt our strategy to counter them. I think the general problem is that people believe they have to kill a ship to win, its all about kill mails and stabs prevent that. Does this mean I like it when an opponent warps out after I have tackled him due to stabs, course not, I hate it, but it is all part of the game and I could have prevented it. So yeah, its more about attitude that a general problem with the module. Jude
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:04:00 - [16] Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 06/09/2006 23:05:32 Originally by: Choi ...blah blah.... and if you participate in anything in 0.0 you should either 1) be ready to pvp or 2) have freinds with you to pvp and save your butt while you mine. this game should be about skill ( points and gaming ability ) instead of playing rock paper scissors with warp stabs and scramblers..... Hey everybody, dont fit stabs in 0.0, thats the rules dont fit mining lasers, fit small lasers on that covetor 0.0 has so many roaming gangs in parts that you would be insane to not have a stab or two on your npc'ing raven ... EVE is a pvp gave, but you need iskies to pvp and you gain those by not getting blown up every day by a claw with a warp scrambler or whatever ... What does annoy me though is****abonds, is there a single one in game flown without a few wcs?
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 06/09/2006 23:05:32 Originally by: Choi ...blah blah.... and if you participate in anything in 0.0 you should either 1) be ready to pvp or 2) have freinds with you to pvp and save your butt while you mine. this game should be about skill ( points and gaming ability ) instead of playing rock paper scissors with warp stabs and scramblers..... Hey everybody, dont fit stabs in 0.0, thats the rules dont fit mining lasers, fit small lasers on that covetor 0.0 has so many roaming gangs in parts that you would be insane to not have a stab or two on your npc'ing raven ... EVE is a pvp gave, but you need iskies to pvp and you gain those by not getting blown up every day by a claw with a warp scrambler or whatever ... What does annoy me though is****abonds, is there a single one in game flown without a few wcs? What is wrong with fitting WCS on a ship that is designed to be able to escape when outgunned? I think its perfectly fine to fit WCS on a pvp ship if you're aiming to do lightning strikes and get out of the way before reinforcements come. Its a valid tactic. Just because you have more people on your side doesn't mean you should win. Guerilla warfare ftw, don't whine because you can't handle it.
D'onryu Shoqui Gallente Vengeance of the Fallen	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:24:00 - [18] Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 06/09/2006 23:23:58 http://snoop1050.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/STABS.jpg I WIN! lol j/k couldnt resist doing that, i dont usually have that setup
Pj Dj Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 01:03:00 - [19] There is nothing wrong with stabs, people whine because they lost a kill when someone warped out etcetc...my heart bleeds for you.
Ryoken McKeon	Posted - 2006.09.07 01:14:00 - [20] Right, warp stabs are overpowered. When I run into a pirate who's been playing for 3 years and by some miracle I (1 and 1/2 months playing) survive his first hit, if I have a WCS, i'm outa there. Pirates, I think that ganking me for no reason whatsoever (I give you nothing, your net gain from killing my cruiser isn't measured in isk, it's in my blood, sweat, and tears) is pretty frickin' *** too, that isn't PvP. WCS lets me avoid you every once in a blue moon, so it's great. Stuff it.
Xeoz Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 01:25:00 - [21] Most people agree that trying to pvp without a scrambler is futile. I personally feel the same holds true about stabs. I try to fit both a scrambler and at least one wcs on any ship that I might pvp in. It's simple: - If you don't have a scrambler then the enemy gets away. If he gets away he is now in control of the fight, he can repair and try again or just survive. - If you don't have a stab then you don't get away. If you can't get away then you don't have control of the situation. You have no second chance to repair and try again, and no second chance to survive. Sure the idea is to just plain win the fight, but really how often is any random encounter fair. Most of the time it's just a gank for one side or the other. Either you are horribly outclassed or the enemy is. Stabs allow you to choose the fight when you are on the receiving end. I don't care if others think it's a lame tactic. I'm not going to let my 10-400 million isk investment get vaporized just for some sense of pride that he doesn't care about anyway. I am going to use every trick available to either win or survive. Further more, I can guarantee that if you give your enemy the opportunity, they will also do anything to win or survive, including running.
Wen Jaibao adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.07 01:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Xeoz Most people agree that trying to pvp without a scrambler is futile. I personally feel the same holds true about stabs. I try to fit both a scrambler and at least one wcs on any ship that I might pvp in. It's simple: - If you don't have a scrambler then the enemy gets away. If he gets away he is now in control of the fight, he can repair and try again or just survive. - If you don't have a stab then you don't get away. If you can't get away then you don't have control of the situation. You have no second chance to repair and try again, and no second chance to survive. Sure the idea is to just plain win the fight, but really how often is any random encounter fair. Most of the time it's just a gank for one side or the other. Either you are horribly outclassed or the enemy is. Stabs allow you to choose the fight when you are on the receiving end. I don't care if others think it's a lame tactic. I'm not going to let my 10-400 million isk investment get vaporized just for some sense of pride that he doesn't care about anyway. I am going to use every trick available to either win or survive. Further more, I can guarantee that if you give your enemy the opportunity, they will also do anything to win or survive, including running. Zomg honorless!!11 Immature jokes aside, I agree with you. If I'm solo, I'm fitting stabs. Getting ganked is nothing about honor, its just a slaughter, and I'm going to avoid a fight I don't have a chance to win. Entire gangs fitting stabs is lame though.. !'s are taking over
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.07 02:12:00 - [23] Stabs are Eve's default "Nerf Minmatar" setting. Why you may ask? Simple. Stabs allow everyone to do Matari's speciality, hit-and-run/skirmish warfare with none of the sacrifices. You see, Matari speed is what should allow them to do skirmish warfare. If things are going bad they should have the speed to fly out of scramble range and warp away. This is opposed to the Amarr school of thought where Amarr have more armor than Matari ships but lack the speed to get out of scramble range. The Vagabond/Jagabond/Nanophoon and probably the Tier 2 BC should all exemplify this Matari concept of escape through speed. The rediculously low fitting, non-cap use, low slot fitting of stabs makes speed completely irrelevant for escape unless you are a Vaga/Jaga/Nanophoon/Inty with 2000m/s speed. Anyone with an extra low slot or two (or five) can now do the Matari specialty for 30 CPU! Wow! Aren't you glad you trained Matari! Nerf stabs on combat setups. Travel setups are fine. Make Matari speed usefull by nerfing stabs. Oh yeah, then give all the non-speed specialist Matari ships more appreciable speed over thier racial counterparts. 10m/s more on a Tempest over the Geddon is a joke. Then give Amarr ships more armor than thier racial counterparts. Gallente already have bigger dronebays, and Caldari have more missile slots and more mids/better ECM. Then maybe things would be more balanced. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.09.07 02:20:00 - [24] Nyxus, taking away wcs would make the vagabond (and various other minmatar ships that do vagabond-type stuff) suck. Its not good for anything else than quick ganks against superior numbers. I know that boosting velocity might seem like it would be as good as wcs but it really doesnt. Maybe if minmatar speeds were multiplied by 5 or something but I can't see that happening. I know, it is stupid with ravens and such fitting wcs and being slow as **** and still escaping, but still. Heh, maybe making WCS use 60 CPU but only 20 on minmatar ships? Minmatar: The Retreat Race!
Ginaz Veto.	Posted - 2006.09.07 02:27:00 - [25] Edited by: Ginaz on 07/09/2006 02:29:20 Originally by: Vicious Phoenix They gimp your setup and make you less effective in combet. Thats bull**, look at emothron, vaga, sleipnir, deimos, zealot, curse, falcon, rook, ferox, nighthawk, vulture, caracal, cerberus, raven, prophecy, geddon, sniperpoc, tempest, phoon.... they are all working very well in pvp, even with 1-2 stabs. for most of them you will find good pvp fittings including 2 stabs. That's the bull about stabs. They should be midslot or highslot modules. Scrambles are midslot, so should be stabs. Indys have to make the tradeoff between cargo and wcs. With mid slot wcs they can have both. HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY TO CAREBEARS P.S.: I never fitted WCS in 0.0 (except for being on a travelrun like gettin deimos from empire to 0.0 when i missed the freighterrun) and i NEVER EVER got ganked. Take a close watch on local. Keep close eye on your enemy intel channel such like "My*****regioncom" or whatever Video: 'Behind enemy lines' Queen of the Amazones
Ginaz Veto.	Posted - 2006.09.07 02:32:00 - [26] Originally by: Tasty Burger Nyxus, taking away wcs would make the vagabond (and various other minmatar ships that do vagabond-type stuff) suck. Its not good for anything else than quick ganks against superior numbers. I know that boosting velocity might seem like it would be as good as wcs but it really doesnt. Maybe if minmatar speeds were multiplied by 5 or something but I can't see that happening. I know, it is stupid with ravens and such fitting wcs and being slow as **** and still escaping, but still. Heh, maybe making WCS use 60 CPU but only 20 on minmatar ships? Minmatar: The Retreat Race! I have seen vagapilots with LG snake set + nano/gyro vagas... all of them have eaten stababonds for breakfast and they don't loose their ships more often then stababond pilots. And you dont even need the LG set. but 6.9km/s and more is nice Video: 'Behind enemy lines' Queen of the Amazones
Benglada Finite Auxiliary	Posted - 2006.09.07 02:36:00 - [27] Edited by: Benglada on 07/09/2006 02:36:54 Its almost like when you see a guy holding a big bag of diamonds, you chase him down for 20 minutes, you finally get him, are about to take his big bag of diamonds but POOF he dissappears. Big-Waste-Of-My-Time. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Shadowace Evi Gallente A.W.M Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.07 03:08:00 - [28] i don't see how, sure they can run away but if they run that means they lost
Sidraket Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.07 03:12:00 - [29] Stabs are wrong because killboards have brainwashed people.
Blanche Virgo The Followers of Origin	Posted - 2006.09.07 03:14:00 - [30] Originally by: Tasty Burger Minmatar: The Retreat Race! The Gallente should be the retreat race, they do have French origin after all. EvE > WoW

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