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I thought they said they wouldnt do this?

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Anaka Totoch Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.07 13:44:00 - [1] Before one of the patches, i forget the name, the thing to do was rack up a full load of damage mods and fit for max damage, sensor boosters as well. Whoever got first look won the fight pretty much. Those were the "gankadays". CCP then said this was ruining pvp because it didnt last long enough and there were little tactics involved, which was a fair thing to do. So solution: make the stacking mod actually work and increase the power and effectivness of tanking,t2 tanking mods. Wow that seems to have worked. DPS is considerably down and tanking is up, combat lasts longer, unless you are in fleet battle ofc. Next thing they decide to do is bring out T2 ammo. Yay, this will be interesting, "it wont just be ammo with extra dps, it will be ammo with a difference." So what did they do they brought out ammo that does extra damage and shortens combat times again coz of added DPS. It also allows sniping at 200+ km. So what was the point of bringing out ammo that would just negate the anti-ganka patch??? Surely it would have been better to bring out T2 ammo that did things like increase cap recharge rate and did less damage, rather than increasing damage and decreasimnng cap recharge??? Or even bring out the sniper ammo, but make it less effective than carbonized lead? I use the example of projectile L coz i use minnie. The Tremor t2 ammo far out damages carbonized lead AND it has a longer range, getting the best of both worlds. Yeah it gets reduced tracking, but does it matter if you at 200km +... no. The way i look at it fleet combat was bad enough as it was before, but at least it was limited to roughly 100-120km ranges. DPS has been raised again to the pre gankadays, with t2 ammo and drones. I know some smart ass will say that this is a moot point because certain attributes change. Yes i agree there are disadvantages, but when a bs is dishing out 1500dps a lil less cap doesnt make a difference, especially if it takes approximately 20 seconds to destroy the other bs. Please someone from ccp read this and relook at t2 ammo. It should provide a tactical advantage, not just "I m gonna pwn your ass even more" advantage. Anyone else share similar views?? Anaka Totoch CEO of The Dark Knights of Deneb
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 13:53:00 - [2] /signed t2 ammo pwns... but in a bad way - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
vyperpit Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:01:00 - [3] /signed there should never of been t2 ammo that did more damage!! Theere should never of been t2 ammo that gives +100% range AND a massive incrase in damage in comparision to te +60% range ammo that was foolish, but whats worse is, now tux doesnt like that we can hit at 225km, so insted of removing/nerfing the +100% range ammo he decides to cut the optimal of turrets in half, WOOT for TUX who hired this guy?
Aeaea XanoTech	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:17:00 - [4] Originally by: vyperpit /signed there should never of been t2 ammo that did more damage!! Theere should never of been t2 ammo that gives +100% range AND a massive incrase in damage in comparision to te +60% range ammo that was foolish, but whats worse is, now tux doesnt like that we can hit at 225km, so insted of removing/nerfing the +100% range ammo he decides to cut the optimal of turrets in half, WOOT for TUX who hired this guy? Agreed, the new ammo is too much.
Andreask14 Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:21:00 - [5] I just trained months for this sniper ammo. Dont you nerf it right now !!!
Anaka Totoch Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:31:00 - [6] Originally by: Andreask14 I just trained months for this sniper ammo. Dont you nerf it right now !!! Andreas i do understand your frustation, i had to train for it myself, but do you think the combat system can continue to exist the way it is. Im not saying they should get rid of it but change it. Your skill training would not go to waste. Anaka Totoch CEO of The Dark Knights of Deneb PS andreas: you greek by any chance?
dralid Vortex. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:39:00 - [7] Don't change it, not while we are having fun at this moment -- Do YOU know, the Whirlwind? HERE
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:41:00 - [8] Signed, T2 ammo bores the life out of me. In addition to which, as well as missiles being > guns already, T2 ammo compounds the problem farther as T2 Missiles > T2 Ammo. Even though I use it all day every day, I'd like to see it nerfed hard. Balance, please. Originally by: D'Hofren The amazing boost amarr thread with it's amorphic elastic maths Scrapheap Challenge!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:49:00 - [9] What I'd like to see. Paranthesis tell you what ammo I am comparing to. I use hybrids as a template, change "Railgun" for "Beam" or "Lead" for "Standard crystal" as appropriate. Railgun ammo 1: (Lead) -20% damage, 10km splash damage. (Higher kinetic ratio) Railgun ammo 2: (Antimatter) Racial effect on hit. (Caldari for hybrids) Blaster ammo 1: (Uranium) Racial effect on hit. (Gallente for hybrids) Blaster ammo 2: (Antimatter) +10% damage (i.e. producable low-grade faction ammo) Missile/Torpedo 1: -20% damage, 10km splash damage. Missile/Torpedo 2: Racial effect. Racial effects can be: * Neutralized capacitor * Very low amount of piercing damage (carry through to next HP layer) * Target painting for a few seconds (it CAN be useful if you don't have to sacrifice slots!) * You name it... (although no webbification, nor targeting affecting, effect) Notes: * For obvious reasons, Autocannons and Blasters can't have ammo that does splash damage. * Splash damage is half of damage inflicted, aplied as if by a smartbomb. - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Anaka Totoch Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:56:00 - [10] Edited by: Anaka Totoch on 07/09/2006 15:01:03 I think if you are talking about splash damage, surely the calculation would the damage multiplied by the inverse radius squared. This is how energy is dispersed in a circle. This way the farther you are from the centre of the point of contact the less damage. Splash damage would also counter the blob which i know the devs are talking about. Things like capacitor draining and webbing would also be good for low rof weapons, but for acs and blasters perhaps less damage coupled with a static bonus to the user, like inrcease to shield recharge rate, or a slight increase to armor resists or slight decrease in sig and increase speed. The possibilities are endless and it would bring a new level to pvp, where if you know that a ship relies on cap heavily you fit your nosser ammo. However i could see a problem with the ammo that has negative effects on opponents. An organized gang who all fitted nosser ammo, would empty someones cap in one volley, making it hard to counter. although this would be overpowered it would obnviously take some balancing to get right. The main pont is that the way it is now, it cannot continue to stay like this! Knowing strengths and weakenesses would have more of a tactical advantage. For the record i myself can use t2 ammo and so this isnt a "i cant use it so no one else should be able to" scenario". Just some more thoughts for ccp Anaka Totoch CEO of The Dark Knights of Deneb
Spaced Skunk Oriundus Cineris	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:58:00 - [11] I hate javelin torps, they are as fast as cruise, more precise and same as t1 damage?!?!?1 Its more precise CCP, it should do less damage than its t1 version. I hate Null, gives gallente the strenght of what minmatar did before t2 ammo was released, accuracy falloff. Ever since the Null release and boosted tracking bonus, I have never ever beaten a blasterthron with t2 guns solo in a tempest. Not fair tbh. 100% range ammo should have a -100& velocity penalty, forcing the sniper to actually stay still, kind of find the people who use that ammo, like low sec snipers, are always aligned for warp, I dont think they should have that advantage. High damage ammo for long ranged weapons should be given a signature resolution penalty. So the ship just cant warp in a gank a ship before it gets too close, has to be some form of gang ammo. A lot of the t2 ammo is needed for a nerf. I definatly think javelin torps need a nerf on damage or precision.
Dred 'Morte Sammael's Legion Arkhangelos Command	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:00:00 - [12] My suggestion for tech II ammo: << HYBRID >> Close range ammo that does 10% more damage (antimatter like) Close range ammo that uses 50% less capacitor (bullets with their own battery) Long Range ammo that does 10% more damage Long Range ammo that does 20% more damage and 80% tracking penalty Costs twice as much tech I. Not overpowered but useful anyway (ammo wouldn't be so expansive anyway) << CRYSTALS >> Cost a heck of a lot more than tech I (perhaps even more than they do now) but don't detiorate. "Infinite" ammo is a symbol of Amarr. Close range ammo with DMG Combo 1 (must include explosive and/or kinetic) Close Range ammo with DMG Combo 2 (must include explosive and/or kinetic) Long Range ammo with DMG Combo 1 or 3 (must include explosive and/or kinetic) Long range ammo with DMG Combo 2 or 4 (must include explosive and/or kinetic) I don't see anything too overpowered here. PvE players would sure love to be able to hunt OTHER rats... PvPers can also make use this (80% resistence these days really hurt laser users). Balancing the crystals would be difficult, true. Finding the right combo between the different types of dmg would take time (Like 30% Em 40% explosive 30% thermal, but total hitpoints iqual to Multifrequency). << PROJECTILLE >> Close range ammo that does 25% more damage but uses quite a bit of capacitor (not sure about this one...). Close range ammo that does 10% more damage. Long range ammo with HUGE tracking bonus. Long range ammo that does 15% more damage. Costs twice as much. I am one of those guys who think Minmatar suck so hard you can't make them overpowered. Discuss PS: I don't have patience to look at missiles. Signature made by Mr Floppykickners
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:00:00 - [13] A set damage over a finite area is easier to calculate with... and incidentally also simpler to implement balance-wise. - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Ithildin * Target painting for a few seconds NOOOOOOO ITHILDIN NOOOOOOOOOOOO! Originally by: D'Hofren The amazing boost amarr thread with it's amorphic elastic maths Scrapheap Challenge!
Anaka Totoch Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Dred 'Morte My suggestion for tech II ammo: << HYBRID >> Close range ammo that does 10% more damage (antimatter like) Close range ammo that uses 50% less capacitor (bullets with their own battery) Long Range ammo that does 10% more damage Long Range ammo that does 20% more damage and 80% tracking penalty Costs twice as much tech I. Not overpowered but useful anyway (ammo wouldn't be so expansive anyway) << CRYSTALS >> Cost a heck of a lot more than tech I (perhaps even more than they do now) but don't detiorate. "Infinite" ammo is a symbol of Amarr. Close range ammo with DMG Combo 1 (must include explosive and/or kinetic) Close Range ammo with DMG Combo 2 (must include explosive and/or kinetic) Long Range ammo with DMG Combo 1 or 3 (must include explosive and/or kinetic) Long range ammo with DMG Combo 2 or 4 (must include explosive and/or kinetic) I don't see anything too overpowered here. PvE players would sure love to be able to hunt OTHER rats... PvPers can also make use this (80% resistence these days really hurt laser users). Balancing the crystals would be difficult, true. Finding the right combo between the different types of dmg would take time (Like 30% Em 40% explosive 30% thermal, but total hitpoints iqual to Multifrequency). << PROJECTILLE >> Close range ammo that does 25% more damage but uses quite a bit of capacitor (not sure about this one...). Close range ammo that does 10% more damage. Long range ammo with HUGE tracking bonus. Long range ammo that does 15% more damage. Costs twice as much. I am one of those guys who think Minmatar suck so hard you can't make them overpowered. Discuss PS: I don't have patience to look at missiles. The only problem with this is that you have just decreased t2 ammo damage by x %. I think bs should find it hard to break 1000dps. A corp mate of mine flies a mega and fits two damage mods and large neutron t2 he gets 1400 dps with his drones and has a MASSIVE tank. The guy i have quoted although your ideas would help, i think they lack real depth. You could add so much more than just extra damage. Instead of weapons with extra damage, have them with less damage and some other tactical advantage. Target painting for a while, nos, tracking disrupt, splash damage anti blob, the list goes on. Obviously they will be no where near as strong as the mods themselves, but they should also have an impact on a 1v1. Example: Small gang skirmish, raven is called primary, he has a good tank and cap is holding. Clever tempest pilot changes to nosfer bullets and tips the balance so ravens cap starts to decrease. This isnt a "im gonna pwn you with my uber dps", this is a "im cleverer than you because i know the weakness of a shield tank is its cap". You get the idea, perhaps it is an unrealiseable dream, but the way its stands atm is not good either. Anaka Totoch CEO of The Dakr Knights of Deneb
Anaka Totoch Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:46:00 - [16] It has struck me so far that 100% of people who have replied have all agreed there is a problem. Comeon people lets make ccp see this thread and shiver. All i ask is you give us a signed if you agree. Thanks in advance Anaka Totoch CEO of The Dark Knights of Deneb
Midnighter Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:56:00 - [17] /signed I have not liked tech2 ammo form the day it was recieved. It needs to be less combat breaking and also less nerfing in some respects. I' like it to be in line with faction ammo, with a couple of small bonuses/negatives.
Frools No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:57:00 - [18] Originally by: Dred 'Morte << CRYSTALS >> Cost a heck of a lot more than tech I (perhaps even more than they do now) but don't detiorate. "Infinite" ammo is a symbol of Amarr. noooooooooooo the problem with t2 crystals is not that they deteriorate (dont think i've ever actually popped a t2 crystal in pvp, ship usually dies first) its that they last too long and hence are too expensive because you cant buy 1000 shots of t2 laser ammo and divide it between your 7 or 8 guns you have to buy 1000 PER GUN, does a sniping mega go into a fleet fight with 10k of spike L? no thats silly theres no way you're going to use up 10k of ammo before you die i'd be quite happy with having t2 crystals last for 1-200 shots and cost proportionally less oh and reduce 100% range ammo to 60% with say 0% range damage, having -12.5% range damage at 100% is just stupid this way theres still a major advantage to having t2 guns (more damage) but you dont completely obsolete t1 guns for fleet battles
Drazhar Kain Alpha Production Technologies Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:25:00 - [19] I would agree with sniping ammo being either 60% range increase with the damage of 0% range ammo, or 100% range increase with the damage of 20% or 40% ammo. Nothing too terribly drastic.
Helene Troi Gallente TROJAN VENTURE	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:46:00 - [20] I like my t2 ammo the way it is!!!!! Today, I get t2 light missiles, hurrah!!!!! keep stuff as is... Thrasher for level Three Missions! Rogue drone harrassment. Portal to War 1 and 5. The Missing Convoy.
F Apparition Minmatar Life Extermination New Eden Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:48:00 - [21] Edited by: F Apparition on 07/09/2006 16:51:38 Edited by: F Apparition on 07/09/2006 16:49:30 I don't think that it's unbalanced really to the point of ruining the game for anybody, or making it very unfair. Just seems like sort of an unnecessary gripe.
Blind Man Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:51:00 - [22] t1 ammo damage, secondary effects. SignatureTemporarily Out Of Order
Zur1ch	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:53:00 - [23] still getting popped by snipers
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:56:00 - [24] no Hey i get paid to be ebil - Xorus So how much you want for the ebil goat??-Tirg I don't - Imz0r
Roxanna Kell Holy Jihad	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:59:00 - [25] signed Originally by: Zur1ch still getting popped by snipers who the hell are you? Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
000Hunter000 Gallente Dummy Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:10:00 - [26] read something about splash damage for ammo? Thats a bad idea if used in hi sec on a corp war mkay? nubbin newbfrig gets in the way between u and ur target and u get ur ass handed to u by concord. Why do u think smarties are almost never used in hi sec? if ccp wanted to make smarties really 'smart' they should make them so only agroers get damage and nobody else Oh and torps used to have splash damage but they removed it for obvious reasons. Banner will be updated shortly
Anaka Totoch Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:21:00 - [27] Originally by: F Apparition Edited by: F Apparition on 07/09/2006 16:51:38 Edited by: F Apparition on 07/09/2006 16:49:30 I don't think that it's unbalanced really to the point of ruining the game for anybody, or making it very unfair. Just seems like sort of an unnecessary gripe. The problem is that it is because of the t2 100% ammo that allows you too do uber damage at 200km +, you get these blob battles, which involve no tactics. by reducing the ranges back down to some sensible ranges, like 100km you bring a certain amount of skill back in to these battles. Anaka Totoch CEO of The Dark Knights of Deneb
xlop Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Anaka Totoch Originally by: F Apparition Edited by: F Apparition on 07/09/2006 16:51:38 Edited by: F Apparition on 07/09/2006 16:49:30 I don't think that it's unbalanced really to the point of ruining the game for anybody, or making it very unfair. Just seems like sort of an unnecessary gripe. The problem is that it is because of the t2 100% ammo that allows you too do uber damage at 200km +, you get these blob battles, which involve no tactics. by reducing the ranges back down to some sensible ranges, like 100km you bring a certain amount of skill back in to these battles. Anaka Totoch CEO of The Dark Knights of Deneb also this totally overpowered +100% range ammo means that noobs [those that cant use t2 large guns] cant compete, they just cant hit that far without the long range t2 ammo the +100% range ones, fleet battles will go back down to 100km meaning that nubs can actually hit if not as hard
Anaka Totoch Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:25:00 - [29] Originally by: 000Hunter000 read something about splash damage for ammo? Thats a bad idea if used in hi sec on a corp war mkay? nubbin newbfrig gets in the way between u and ur target and u get ur ass handed to u by concord. Why do u think smarties are almost never used in hi sec? if ccp wanted to make smarties really 'smart' they should make them so only agroers get damage and nobody else Oh and torps used to have splash damage but they removed it for obvious reasons. Hmm ok then t2 ammo can only be used in 0.0 /me hides from the flames On a more serious note this post is not about what should be done precisely it is more about making ccp aware that there is a problem and we are not happy with it. It solves some of their problems aswell Anaka Totoch CEO of The Dark Knights of Deneb
Anaka Totoch Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:38:00 - [30] Originally by: xlop also this totally overpowered +100% range ammo means that noobs [those that cant use t2 large guns] cant compete, they just cant hit that far without the long range t2 ammo the +100% range ones, fleet battles will go back down to 100km meaning that nubs can actually hit if not as hard By jove you've got it Exactly, although i think t2 should dish out more damage, People with t1 should still be able to get a shot in at least!!!!What kindof system is that?? Anaka Totoch CEO of The Dark Knights of Deneb

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