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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
293
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Posted - 2011.12.05 01:20:00 -
[61] - Quote
Nyssa Litari wrote:It makes sense that you'd void insurance on self-destruct. It makes sense that you'd not generate loot when you self-destruct. I've seen no justification in this thread other than "it's dumb" for a self destruct to generate a kill mail for the attacker.
If you can't kill the ship before the timer, then no KM for you. Better, self-destructing ought to be like a giant smart bomb and damage everyone nearby. If you can take down an aggressor with that last desperate act, so much the better.
But "it should generate a kill mail because it's 'dumb' that it does not" is not a good reason.
Currently SD generates no record of the loss, either for the pilot, or the killer.
If you don't want to generate a mail for the killer, then at the very least the pilot who self destructs should generate a personal api verified loss that shows his self as the player that landed the final blow.
We don't care WHO gets the mail, as long as some evidence of the pilots final minutes is generated.
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Berendas
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
22
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Posted - 2011.12.05 05:50:00 -
[62] - Quote
+1 |
Danthomir
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 06:23:00 -
[63] - Quote
-1, dumb idea.
Self destruct is a strategic option that:
- denies loot
- denies intel on fittings
- pisses off killmail whores
It's hard to pull off, since you need to judge the point of no return early enough to not die normally, but late enough to have no chance of surviving.
It used to be risky before they added the detailed timer. (I'd like that removed tbh, made for fun times. I remember a carrier accidentally self destructing while playing undock games, because docking didn't cancel the countdown.)
The people who want it gone need to find better things to ********** over, than killboard stats. |
Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
424
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Posted - 2011.12.05 09:22:00 -
[64] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:May look into this in the future. Killmails you should certainly get. I disagree. Self-destructing should be an option for denying the enemy information and loots. It does require some skill to pull off.
About all that I agree with in the OP is denying the self-destructor an insurance payout.
Today I lost my common sense,
It slipped away between Amamake and Rens,
I think it happened in highsec,
Using a Brutix to gank a Providence.
-- Flunk |
Bailian Moxtain
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 13:28:00 -
[65] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:May look into this in the future. Killmails you should certainly get. I disagree. Self-destructing should be an option for denying the enemy information and loots. It does require some skill to pull off. About all that I agree with in the OP is denying the self-destructor an insurance payout.
"information", what the **** are you on about. Theres no secret fittings on a super; either standard fit (maybe something pimp), or ****-fit which is only used by poor people. Either die with pride or be flamed for having ****-fit and being stupid. I dont care about the loot, but the effort put into a supercap-kill should atleast provide a killmail for the fc who managed to kill it. |
Cid SilverWing
Grim Determination Clockworks Inc.
Nulli Tertius
1
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Posted - 2011.12.05 14:56:00 -
[66] - Quote
Signed
Don't forget you shouldn't be able to SD any capital ships just because one tiny Interceptor caught you on the gate and the enemy don't have enough DPS. |
Abbadon Karis
Aperture Harmonics
K162
7
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:09:00 -
[67] - Quote
+1 as well. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
Petition Blizzard
374
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:55:00 -
[68] - Quote
Danthomir wrote: denies intel on fittings
Because ship scanners are SO hard to come by. If I want to know what you fly, a disposable alt in a frig with sebos and a scanner can get that intel in less than a second. Besides that, I'd love to know just how much your lossmails say about you that you feel the need to protect that as "intel".
CCP has said that killmails are a crucial part of the game, enhancing them with implants on podmails. What's more, concord kills give killmails to the player (if there is one) that does the most damage. I see no reason to do SD any differently. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
296
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:58:00 -
[69] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:[quote=CCP Soundwave]It does require some skill to pull off.
Not really, this is the current situation, Dreads in siege, the FC's address book lights up with hostile supers, all dreads initiate self destruct. No actual threat to the dreads ever made it to system in time, but about 35 of them exploded. This actually happened yesterday.
Nyx tackled outside of a POS, by 70 BS and some hics. Instantly initiated self destruct, theres no way short of lagging a system out right now to generate a super killmail as they all simply start the self destruct timer the second they get tackled, since they can no longer fend off tackle.
There is no skill involved in anything I just described, and there is also no record of the ships demise.
Like I said, we don't really need the mail, but the loss SHOULD show at least on the pilot in questions combat record as a loss, and API verifiable loss, if its under fire at the time, the API will record the damage its sustained in its final minutes from other players and or the loss of the ship. In the case of the dreads that died, they would simply show themselves on their own mail.
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Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
3046
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Posted - 2011.12.05 18:36:00 -
[70] - Quote
I agree with no insurance, but I disagree with the kill mail. I prefer that people be allowed to give KM lovers the bird.
CCP Zulu.....
Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
56
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Posted - 2011.12.05 19:17:00 -
[71] - Quote
Stoffer gets it wrong again, no surprise.
I've lost Rorqual and carrier killmails and I've never successfully avoided lossmails by self-destructing (the one time I tried (in an orca) I lost my pod for my troubles.)
Self-destructs should not generate killmails. Scuttling a ship is a time-honored military tradition and EVE's version of it works just fine, tyvm.
Mag's has it right. No to insurance payout (this isn't Iceland, after all, where people routinely blow up their cars for the insurance payout,) but no killmail either. |
Hedliner
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
0
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Posted - 2011.12.06 00:34:00 -
[72] - Quote
This has needed fixing for a long time.
+1 |
Hustomte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2011.12.07 11:57:00 -
[73] - Quote
Wow, ALL of Pandemic Legion posted on this thread 
As the non-Pandemic Legion people have said... get rid of insurance payout, and deny them a killmail. If you can't kill it fast enough, try harder next time 
I do agree that having a registered loss on the pilot would be good for stats purposes, but flipping the bird to PL is fine with me too (sorry guys) 
MEANWHILE IN AFRICA +¬(GùŦ«¦«¦âGÇó¦â)¦¦ |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
297
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Posted - 2011.12.08 06:38:00 -
[74] - Quote
AkJon Ferguson wrote:. Scuttling a ship is a time-honored military tradition
You're right, it is, theres also all manner of things that happen to chronicle the event, in fact, I'd say about 99% of all scuttled ships are recorded, usually by the foe of said ship, who watches it go under.
Like a killmail, only its kept in the military history books.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
180
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Posted - 2011.12.08 08:40:00 -
[75] - Quote
But how does being witness to a scuttling translate into being privy to all data concerning the ship immediately prior to the act?
Hell, they are still finding known scuttled wrecks from WWII with all sorts of gizmos and treasures that the observers were completely oblivious to.
- Remove insurance.
- Generate mail for self-destructee.
- Remove pop-up notification of SD initiation.
Alternatively/Additionally:
- Low chance of getting a copy of mail when salvaging wreck.
- Person must be de-aggressed to initiate SD.
The mass-SD of Dreads you complain about is only tangentially related, has a lot more to do with the way the address book system works.
Solution: Five minute delay before "the others" (ie. not alliancee/corp) get online notification for entries in address book.
Hardly a coincidence that this complaint suddenly gets so much attention by Eve's premi+¿re e-peen whores after the log-off evasion has been removed .. well guess what; log-offski abused a system designed to protect against power outages and whatnot (ie. OOG events) whereas SD uses system that is not only part of game but requires people to remain in game AND that they take a quantifiable economic hit.
PS: Mass log-on of capitals that you describe should be deemed an exploit as it is for all intents and purposes a log-on trap .. only difference is that it is done with capitals since they don't have to be anywhere near the actual gank the "tactic" is condoned. |
Utsen Dari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
1
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Posted - 2011.12.10 05:27:00 -
[76] - Quote
Speaking from a wormspace dweller perspective, where most fights are small gang size and a single capship present on field is a very big deal:
Capital Ship Self Destruct with no lossmail encourages blobbing and discourages evenly-matched fun fights.
If you have an epic fight where one side squeaks out a win by the narrowest of margins, then any enemy capships present on the losing side will have more than enough time to see the fight is lost and hit that one button to cover up the record of their loss. Which means such an epic fight is less likely to happen, as the potentially winning side will want to bring five times as many ships as is necessary to win, so that they can crush that capship in under 120 seconds from when they appear on D-scan. Barely squeaking by with minimal force and taking out a capship is the fight you talk about for months afterward. Splattering a capship who had no chance in less than 120 seconds is not.
Yes please to some kind of record for self destruct under fire for capships. Yes please to more incentive to start evenly-matched nailbiter fights. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
320
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Posted - 2011.12.12 02:05:00 -
[77] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
PS: Mass log-on of capitals that you describe should be deemed an exploit as it is for all intents and purposes a log-on trap .. only difference is that it is done with capitals since they don't have to be anywhere near the actual gank the "tactic" is condoned.
Yes, because sitting around with supercaps just logged in and idling all day is smart.
No, its not, and its not an exploit.
Also nobody cares whats fit on the ship, ever, at all, its the record of the loss, the record of the actual pilots choice to scuttle the ship thats in question.
We could give a crap less what was in, or on the pilot.
Also I believe in your rage filled tirade of butthurt you have come after the wrong group, PL rides its burning supers into the ground, we're not known as an alliance to "log off' in a fight.
All this may be shocking to you, and hard to take, I understand that as you couldn't even really stay on the topic in your rant. If you'd like to sit and talk about your problems a bit we have some people around who can help you out.
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steave435
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
33
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Posted - 2011.12.12 15:32:00 -
[78] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:But how does being witness to a scuttling translate into being privy to all data concerning the ship immediately prior to the act?
Hell, they are still finding known scuttled wrecks from WWII with all sorts of gizmos and treasures that the observers were completely oblivious to.
Fair enough. Generate a killmail with information about what ship was destroyed where and who killed it, possibly including damage done. No information that's not already given out is given out, and the destruction is still documented. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
184
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Posted - 2011.12.12 19:52:00 -
[79] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:...All this may be shocking to you, and hard to take, I understand that as you couldn't even really stay on the topic in your rant. If you'd like to sit and talk about your problems a bit we have some people around who can help you out.
Not sure why a direct response to post is suddenly both a rant but also off-topic .. but something tells me that is probably the generic reply/thought you have for anything that isn't in accordance with your world view. Very modern to be sure, but hardly constructive and certainly not worth my time so enjoy your silence Grath.
steave435 wrote:Fair enough. Generate a killmail with information about what ship was destroyed where and who killed it, possibly including damage done. No information that's not already given out is given out, and the destruction is still documented.
See, that would make sense.
A blank killmail only containing participants (but no numbers whatsoever) with "Self Destructed" or "Scuttled" in place of damage received.
PS: Really don't see all the fuss over API verification to SD mails which is all it boils down to .. guess my e-peen/ego does not need the constant attention and my associates are more trustworthy than others.
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Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
35
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Posted - 2011.12.13 06:53:00 -
[80] - Quote
slackjawed wrote:Dear EvE-player, I propose a balance to the self destructing. Due to people not able to log off anymore the remaining way to grief is to self destruct. At this moment you can self destruct and you:- Don't generate a killmail
- No loot drops
- Insurance is paid out.
While it makes sense that no loot drops (you do self destruct after all), it's dumb that there is no killmail provided. The insurance is something that is also questionable. What I propose:- Generate a killmail for the last person who shot at the ship. (Damage included or not depends on technical problems I presume)
- No loot drops
- Pay out no insurance
This way SD is used for the primary reason it should be used: denying people your stuff. It doesn't however cover the fact that your ship was destroyed. Also the timer should be dependant on the ships size. The timer should be that it forces people to use enough dps to be able to kill it. A reasonable timer would probably be around 5-6 minutes for a super. A pod could be lowered to 20-30 seconds. Conclusion:The CSM has recommended this once already, but nothing happened with it then. CCP is doing a good job fixing a lot of "issues" with the game, let's make this the next one? This issue was alrdy raised once by Alekseyev Karrde, 20 December 2009.
The minutes it was discussed in: CSM Meeting 4.002 // Meeting Minutes: 2009/12/20 18:18
Results were:
Self Destruct should revoke insurance
Passed 7/2 (Mrs Trzzbk, Korvin)
Self-destruct should generate killmail
Passed 7/2 (TeaDaze, Song Li)
Self-destruct should "overheat" all modules
Failed 7/2 (Alekseyev Karrde, Sokratesz)
Self-destruct timer depends on ship size
Passed 8/1 (Korvin)
I dont mind this changes myself.
But there is a point of conflict in my mind of the No Pay out on Insurance.
It makes perfect logic that a Insurance company will not pay out if you destory your own ship. But that same logic also means no more pay outs if the police blow your crap up too.
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Madbuster73
Shadows Of The Federation
3
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Posted - 2011.12.14 11:48:00 -
[81] - Quote
+1
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Nyssa Litari
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2011.12.15 01:46:00 -
[82] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:[quote=CCP Soundwave]It does require some skill to pull off.
Not really, this is the current situation, Dreads in siege, the FC's address book lights up with hostile supers, all dreads initiate self destruct. No actual threat to the dreads ever made it to system in time, but about 35 of them exploded. This actually happened yesterday. Nyx tackled outside of a POS, by 70 BS and some hics. Instantly initiated self destruct, theres no way short of lagging a system out right now to generate a super killmail as they all simply start the self destruct timer the second they get tackled, since they can no longer fend off tackle. There is no skill involved in anything I just described, and there is also no record of the ships demise. Like I said, we don't really need the mail, but the loss SHOULD show at least on the pilot in questions combat record as a loss, and API verifiable loss, if its under fire at the time, the API will record the damage its sustained in its final minutes from other players and or the loss of the ship. In the case of the dreads that died, they would simply show themselves on their own mail.
The notion of a loss-mail going to the pilot recording it as a self-destruct makes sense. No kill-mail, though. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
24
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Posted - 2012.01.03 20:51:00 -
[83] - Quote
Issue raised 20th December 2009, a single Dev post saying you should definitely get KMs and it'll be looked into. Two years later nothing?
Seriously? |
Kari Trace
21 SVC Corp
Fidelas Constans
9
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Posted - 2012.01.03 21:27:00 -
[84] - Quote
I agree with Nyssa Litari;
no insurance +1, timed based on class size +1, no loot +1, pilot record shows a self-destruct loose +1
KM shows fit -1.
be safe, fly reckless. |
icometogetyou
Templar Solutions
0
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Posted - 2012.01.03 21:31:00 -
[85] - Quote
Great idea. +1 |
VIP Ares
BALKAN EXPRESS
24
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Posted - 2012.01.04 06:44:00 -
[86] - Quote
Absolutely signed. |
Banedon Runestar
Gravity Mining and Manufacturing Inc
The Company LLC
0
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Posted - 2012.01.04 17:27:00 -
[87] - Quote
+1 |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic
Tragedy.
893
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Posted - 2012.01.04 19:29:00 -
[88] - Quote
I disagree with generating a killmail simply on the fact that in order to do so you will have to give credit to someone who didn't "actually" kill anything. The ship self destructed. What I would agree to is increasing the time it takes to self destruct and prevent the self destructing ship from being able to target anything and from using modules to avoid abusing that. Maybe make the self destruct timer based on the ships size. The whole point to self destruct is to deny your enemy the satisfaction of a kill. There is no other point in EvE for self destruct other than that right now. 5 minutes or so on self destruct for capitals (as they are really the only issue here) sounds about reasonable.
I do agree that self destructing ships should NOT pay out insurance.
EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
583
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Posted - 2012.01.04 19:45:00 -
[89] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:The whole point to self destruct is to deny your enemy the satisfaction of a kill. There is no other point in EvE for self destruct other than that right now. 5 minutes or so on self destruct for capitals (as they are really the only issue here) sounds about reasonable.
- Insurance (rather then reprocessing the ship for materials during times when the mineral basket has fallen below platinum insurance level). But I'm not overly attached to self-destructing ships getting or not getting insurance (as you could just duel someone or have your corp mates blow you up and collect).
- Self-destruction of excess ships inside a w-space pocket where you can't take them out of the hole. Which is faster then burning them down in a duel.
- In the case of a ship which has been tackled far away from the gate, where the attacker is attempting to hold the ship for ransom indefinitely, self-destruct provides a way to get out and go do something else. You're SD'ing, not to deny them the kill mail, but to simply get on with things rather then sit there tackled for a long time.
SD timer based on size makes a reasonable amount of sense (5-10 sec for a pod, going up to 5-10 minutes for a scap/titan).
I don't think it matters much whether or not the SD generates a KM. I think it should, if the ship was aggressed before the SD timer started. Whoever gets the last shot in, gets the KM. |
Temba Ronin
118
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Posted - 2012.01.05 02:51:00 -
[90] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:The whole point to self destruct is to deny your enemy the satisfaction of a kill. There is no other point in EvE for self destruct other than that right now. 5 minutes or so on self destruct for capitals (as they are really the only issue here) sounds about reasonable. - Insurance (rather then reprocessing the ship for materials during times when the mineral basket has fallen below platinum insurance level). But I'm not overly attached to self-destructing ships getting or not getting insurance (as you could just duel someone or have your corp mates blow you up and collect). - Self-destruction of excess ships inside a w-space pocket where you can't take them out of the hole. Which is faster then burning them down in a duel. - In the case of a ship which has been tackled far away from the gate, where the attacker is attempting to hold the ship for ransom indefinitely, self-destruct provides a way to get out and go do something else. You're SD'ing, not to deny them the kill mail, but to simply get on with things rather then sit there tackled for a long time. SD timer based on size makes a reasonable amount of sense (5-10 sec for a pod, going up to 5-10 minutes for a scap/titan). I don't think it matters much whether or not the SD generates a KM. I think it should, if the ship was aggressed before the SD timer started. Whoever gets the last shot in, gets the KM.
Hmmm good points made here. I do not think SD should generate a Killmail ..... love those Nullbear tears ..... nice to deny mods cargo & killmails to a ganker. Every gank should not be a guaranteed reward. If the pilot can survive long enough to SD ganker should lose out ....... boo hoo go ahead and cry about it. I agree no insurance payout for SD. SD pilot must lose something for that choice also. |
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