I like that a player can still prevent you from getting their fit by self destructing

I didn't really mind getting owned by that nyx today. But yeah, that mechanic is dumb.

Shorten the timer for normal people just trying to pod jump, and make it impossible to activate under duress.

I support this product and/or service

Shorten the timer for normal people just trying to pod jump, and make it impossible to activate under duress.

No real man with a decent fit self destruct anyways. Die with pride

Just a voice of consideration. Denying insurance payouts to self-destructing ships has a very real effect on wormhole space. Sometimes self-destructing isn't really voluntary...

I generally agree with the thread, otherwise.

It makes sense that you'd void insurance on self-destruct. It makes sense that you'd not generate loot when you self-destruct. I've seen no justification in this thread other than "it's dumb" for a self destruct to generate a kill mail for the attacker.

If you can't kill the ship before the timer, then no KM for you. Better, self-destructing ought to be like a giant smart bomb and damage everyone nearby. If you can take down an aggressor with that last desperate act, so much the better.

But "it should generate a kill mail because it's 'dumb' that it does not" is not a good reason.

May look into this in the future. Killmails you should certainly get.

I disagree. Self-destructing should be an option for denying the enemy information and loots. It does require some skill to pull off.

About all that I agree with in the OP is denying the self-destructor an insurance payout.

[quote=CCP Soundwave]It does require some skill to pull off.

. Scuttling a ship is a time-honored military tradition

PS: Mass log-on of capitals that you describe should be deemed an exploit as it is for all intents and purposes a log-on trap .. only difference is that it is done with capitals since they don't have to be anywhere near the actual gank the "tactic" is condoned.

But how does being witness to a scuttling translate into being privy to all data concerning the ship immediately prior to the act?
Hell, they are still finding known scuttled wrecks from WWII with all sorts of gizmos and treasures that the observers were completely oblivious to.

...All this may be shocking to you, and hard to take, I understand that as you couldn't even really stay on the topic in your rant. If you'd like to sit and talk about your problems a bit we have some people around who can help you out.

Fair enough. Generate a killmail with information about what ship was destroyed where and who killed it, possibly including damage done. No information that's not already given out is given out, and the destruction is still documented.

Not really, this is the current situation, Dreads in siege, the FC's address book lights up with hostile supers, all dreads initiate self destruct. No actual threat to the dreads ever made it to system in time, but about 35 of them exploded. This actually happened yesterday.

Nyx tackled outside of a POS, by 70 BS and some hics. Instantly initiated self destruct, theres no way short of lagging a system out right now to generate a super killmail as they all simply start the self destruct timer the second they get tackled, since they can no longer fend off tackle.

There is no skill involved in anything I just described, and there is also no record of the ships demise.


Like I said, we don't really need the mail, but the loss SHOULD show at least on the pilot in questions combat record as a loss, and API verifiable loss, if its under fire at the time, the API will record the damage its sustained in its final minutes from other players and or the loss of the ship. In the case of the dreads that died, they would simply show themselves on their own mail.

The whole point to self destruct is to deny your enemy the satisfaction of a kill. There is no other point in EvE for self destruct other than that right now. 5 minutes or so on self destruct for capitals (as they are really the only issue here) sounds about reasonable.

- Insurance (rather then reprocessing the ship for materials during times when the mineral basket has fallen below platinum insurance level). But I'm not overly attached to self-destructing ships getting or not getting insurance (as you could just duel someone or have your corp mates blow you up and collect).

- Self-destruction of excess ships inside a w-space pocket where you can't take them out of the hole. Which is faster then burning them down in a duel.

- In the case of a ship which has been tackled far away from the gate, where the attacker is attempting to hold the ship for ransom indefinitely, self-destruct provides a way to get out and go do something else. You're SD'ing, not to deny them the kill mail, but to simply get on with things rather then sit there tackled for a long time.

SD timer based on size makes a reasonable amount of sense (5-10 sec for a pod, going up to 5-10 minutes for a scap/titan).

I don't think it matters much whether or not the SD generates a KM. I think it should, if the ship was aggressed before the SD timer started. Whoever gets the last shot in, gets the KM.

add fukug as your home-page.... w/e.

I disagree with generating a killmail simply on the fact that in order to do so you will have to give credit to someone who didn't "actually" kill anything. The ship self destructed. What I would agree to is increasing the time it takes to self destruct and prevent the self destructing ship from being able to target anything and from using modules to avoid abusing that. Maybe make the self destruct timer based on the ships size. The whole point to self destruct is to deny your enemy the satisfaction of a kill. There is no other point in EvE for self destruct other than that right now. 5 minutes or so on self destruct for capitals (as they are really the only issue here) sounds about reasonable.

I do agree that self destructing ships should NOT pay out insurance.

I disagree with generating a killmail simply on the fact that in order to do so you will have to give credit to someone who didn't "actually" kill anything. The ship self destructed. What I would agree to is increasing the time it takes to self destruct and prevent the self destructing ship from being able to target anything and from using modules to avoid abusing that. Maybe make the self destruct timer based on the ships size. The whole point to self destruct is to deny your enemy the satisfaction of a kill. There is no other point in EvE for self destruct other than that right now. 5 minutes or so on self destruct for capitals (as they are really the only issue here) sounds about reasonable.

I do agree that self destructing ships should NOT pay out insurance.

Agree with this.

Why should you get a KM if you didn't actually kill the ship?

Posting in a PL "I wants me kill mails so I can stroke my epeen" whine thread.

I disagree with generating a killmail simply on the fact that in order to do so you will have to give credit to someone who didn't "actually" kill anything.

This doesn't make any sense. The only reason to self-destruct in combat is because you know that you're going to die. This means that you have decided that your death is inevitable, meaning that activating S-D is, effectively, crediting your opponents with an inevitable kill. So it's entirely appropriate that S-D should generate a killmail if other parties were involved, presumably measured by an active aggression timer.

The purpose of S-D is to deny your opponent loot and, arguably, ship fitting information. Both of these should remain, the latter simply by generating a killmail and lossmail containing no module information and with an extra message stating that the ship self-destructed.

Agree with this.

Why should you get a KM if you didn't actually kill the ship?

Okay first i readily admit i am no master of EVE game play. I would like to propose as a possible middle ground position in this get a killmail for not actually killing anything argument this compromise: If any aggressed ship chooses to sd the ship having done the most damage shall receive a killmail, now the offer in kind is that any ship that is concorded after aggressing any other ship shall also generate a killmail for the owner of the ship he attacked and was concorded for. In essence sd will generate a killmail for the attacking pilot, gank will generate a killmail for the attacked pilot if the attacker is destroyed by concord.

Sometimes you have to give to get, thus i am suggesting some give on both sides for some get on both sides without implying that both are of equal value. All thoughts thumbs up or down are appreciated.

May look into this in the future. Killmails you should certainly get.

Just a voice of consideration. Denying insurance payouts to self-destructing ships has a very real effect on wormhole space. Sometimes self-destructing isn't really voluntary...

I generally agree with the thread, otherwise.

can you give an example please?

Or make it simple. Aggression = no self destruct

Which runs into the problem of - you get aggressed in a ship/pod, away from a gate, the attacker decides to just hold you there in place for an hour or two. Self-destruction is a legitimate way of saying "screw you, I'm not going to play your game".

Now, if you want to make it that you can't self destruct if you have an active outbound 15-minute aggression timer, then maybe. But I would put the timer at more like 5-minutes before you can start the self-destruct timer, with the larger ships having timers up to 5-7 minutes long. Which would definitively end combat, at most, 10-12 minutes after the victim decides to "check out".

Than make the pod an exception. So yea, if you are in a ship they can hold you until you eject, or shot you. But in pod, you can self destruct as normal. Problem solved.

can you give an example please?

Lol@ PL calling it "grief."

Self destruct is intended to deny you loot and km. If you're mad, it's working as intended.

May look into this in the future. Killmails you should certainly get.

Lol@ PL calling it "grief."

Self destruct is intended to deny you loot and km. If you're mad, it's working as intended.

The self destruct timer is long for a reason. If you cannot kill a target within 2 minutes, then you lose your chance at a KM. Additionally, KMs are not an important part of EVE, they are important for sites like BC who help people with nothing better to do feel good about destroying internet spaceship pixels.

KMs are working as intended - if you can't get them in 2 minutes, then you don't deserve that kill.

A small concession that might be reasonable, however - if you choose to activate the self destruct timer, then all your modules finish their cycle and power down, with the exception of guns. You can die guns blazing, having no boosters should help you die faster which will appease some of the butt-hurt from 12 year olds that don't have their KM that's been posted in this thread, and we don't need to **** with the timer.

I don't mean this in a bad way, but glancing at your KB you are obviously a fan of flying smaller ships. In which case SD timers really don't effect you at all.

Unless you are in a position where you are actively planning on killing capitals, have some experience in killing capitals, or are actively losing capitals I don't think you can objectively make statements along the lines of "if you can't get them in 2 minutes" based on personal experience.

As for KMs not being an important part of Eve, consider this. I don't know you, and yet I now know you fly Minmatar, can use T2 large guns but your engineering skills are possibly not up to scratch, you've tried PvP before but mostly you run missions and the odd PvP trip you have made has ended badly. This kind of knowledge is pretty damn invaluable when someone applies to join your corp or alliance, or conversely when choosing an alliance to join.

Now i readily admit i have never ever attempted to kill a capital ship. Simi makes a few good points but like many arguments respectfully submitted, seems to discount any perspective that does not serve his specific interest. Knowing i could be wrong i'd venture a guess that many many more players have killed or been killed in non-capital ships then capital ships. Thus to make an argument that would apply a new standard to all for the benefit of a minority seems incorrect and honestly somewhat overly self centered.

As far as the ability to determine a player's skills from killmails, when you make that case you also make the opposite case. You have no idea how many times i might have self destructed or what kind of ships i fly or anything about how up to scratch my engineering skills may or may not be, and i might tactically very well want and need to keep you an others in the dark about those specific facts as long as possible.

Player choices, player skills, and player tactics should not be undermined by the never ending lust for guaranteed killmails.

If you read through the thread you'd notice (most) people want to extend SD timers for capitals only. In fact I've actively argued against getting rid of SD timers altogether, and even suggested shortening them for pods and inconsequential smaller ships.


Well I do know what kind of ships you fly, I can see them on your killboard. Given the age of your character and complete lack of anything non-minmatar it is very unlikely you've cross trained yet, and if so you've done it very little. I also have a very good idea of how up to scratch your engineering skills are from how you fit your maelstroms etc.

The point is you may very well tactically want to keep others in the dark, but should you be able to? I mean to be fair, they just blew up your ship. Anything you self destruct is very likely to contain "zomg top sekrit informations" in it's fitting. Especially if it just died to a small, low dps gang.


It should also be noted that this isn't purely about KMs. Super caps usually have some pretty shiny loot on them, but at the moment there's no real incentive to go after them because you need a gang that can not only survive, but also kill it in two minutes flat. And if you didn't know already, supers have 30-40 million EHP. To put that in perspective your maelstrom has ~60k EHP.

The same issue also applies to ratting carriers, albeit on a smaller scale.

I don't fly Minmatar ......... and the rest of your assumptions are equally accurate.

until we have you scrambled in your big important ship that can't track fast enough to blast us.
Enough of trying to rig the rules so the "Important Ships and Pilots" can have more and more and more. This thread has had good exchanges and a reasonable consensus could be achieved if people did not find the game play of other players ..... inconsequential. EVE is for ALL the players. Power to the players!

So, you aren't an alt of Tidurius? Then why are you replying to an assesment of his character claiming that it is inaccurate when applied to yourself? Of course it's inaccurate, you're a completely different player. Not to mention your being a four month old forum alt.


Those ships are inconsequential in terms of them self destructing. Because they don't survive 10 seconds, let alone 2 minutes. Shortening the self destruct timer for them is a buff, if you intend to go that route.

Similarly lengthening the SD timer of bigger ship is a buff for those in "inconsequential" ships who wish to kill large ones. Next time try training reading comprehension to level 5 before replying to a post.

#4 The fact that you can not tell anything about what this character flies and where my skills are PROVE my point that players have the right to tactically avoid making those facts easily accessible for every other pilot and self destruct can enable that tactic.

#1 I was responding to your response which featured my posted comments. If you mistakenly thought or assumed I was alt of someone else simply highlights why players should not put so much faith in kill board posts.

#2 On capital ships you have a reasonable position, two minutes might indeed be too short ...... or the game might be designed with the intent that a smaller sized gang CAN NOT defeat every target they can sink their teeth into. Perhaps instead of changing the self destruct rules you should organize larger gangs capable of killing whatever your target is in under two minutes. If that is impossible, and surely it is not with a big enough blob, then and only then do you have a legitimate argument. In my humble inconsequential opinion.

#5 EVE is supposed to be about risk and reward ..... in these forum posts i read a lot about how to guarantee rewards and very little about balancing it with more risk. Right now an attacking gang gets to pick the target, gets to pick the place, gets to pick the time of any attack they engage in, how much more advantage do you require we rig the rules to give you?

#6 I have certainly learned to defer to the greater skill and experience level of many players posting in these forum threads, having repeatedly inserted my foot into my mouth due to insufficient knowledge of how many aspects of the game unknown to me are played, that being said I find less and less merit to an argument that sounds more and more like crying about the ones that can get away, just because you don't like them to be able to employ a legitimate tactic.

Because you are a forum alt.



I don't think the SD system was "designed" with capitals in mind at all, since it merely wasn't changed when they were introduced.

As for your "if that is impossible" argument, do you realise how many people it takes to kill a super capital in <2 minutes? Work it out, then get back to me. Don't forget to allow for the fact that sometimes you're fighting entire fleets of supercaps.


The defender also gets to be in his home system, with friends, scouts, an outpost/pos, hell he even has LOCAL. If he's in a belt in his carrier with neutrals in system he deserves to die.

Pretending Eve is lopsided toward the aggressors is just plain wrong. It is literally impossible to force a fight in Eve unless the person you are attacking has done something very, very wrong. (Or knowingly done something dangerous, eg flying around null sec and getting caught in a bubble spiked with cans. Even then, with safes/warping to celestrials it's possible to avoid it most of the time.)


Meh, get back to me when you've worked out how long it would take to kill an Aeon overloading it's modules with 20 dreadnaughts two prometheus fit carriers and a heavy interdictor.

This also extends to fleet fights, if Lord Zim is around here before I believe he's mentioned before that entire fleets have been known to SD, before they are even attacked, just because they've seen the enemies super cap pilots log on. Thus no fight was had, their losses were hidden, and it was an extremely boring and dissatisfying night for all involved.

Etc.

The self destruct timer is long for a reason. If you cannot kill a target within 2 minutes, then you lose your chance at a KM. Additionally, KMs are not an important part of EVE, they are important for sites like BC who help people with nothing better to do feel good about destroying internet spaceship pixels.

KMs are working as intended - if you can't get them in 2 minutes, then you don't deserve that kill.

A small concession that might be reasonable, however - if you choose to activate the self destruct timer, then all your modules finish their cycle and power down, with the exception of guns. You can die guns blazing, having no boosters should help you die faster which will appease some of the butt-hurt from 12 year olds that don't have their KM that's been posted in this thread, and we don't need to **** with the timer.

+1 On Kms

+1 On Not dropping loots

Neutral on Insurance payouts (I lean towards no payout, but I can see good arguments on each side, and pressing the issue would raise more hell than it's worth)

+1 on looking at the timer. The downside of lengthening it is that people get stuck somewhere they don't want to be for longer. Upside is that small gangs can viably kill big targets, given time.

Upside of shortening it (for small stuff) is the possibility of isk intensive, but character unintensive cyno chains. Light cyno > Jump > SD cyno & pod > light cyno. Costs you a cyno ship+cyno at each stop and a good bunch of offices, but hey.

#1 Thank you for the specific responses.

#2 Just because you say i am a forum alt in bold underlined letters does not make it so.

#3 Boring and dissatisfying? Where in the EVE EULA does it state you are guaranteed that individual player choices will make you less bored and more satisfied? Your feeling of entitlement is showing, or at least i think that is what it is, i can not read your mind or fairly make a conclusive statement about your mindset from these few posts, thus i can only say what it "sounds like" from my perspective.

#4 Mass self destruction on a scale you are talking about happens how often? Often enough to rig the rules to make it impossible becomes a priority?

#5 The seeming need to enhance attacks in a game that is balanced already in an extremely lopsided manner in favor of the attacker while hiding behind insubstantial quotes of "playing EVE wrong" or "reckless behavior" is the only way you end up dead is really unworthy of these forums, in my opinion.

Player choices are preferable to me then setting the rules to rigidly enforce gameplay that benefits a few and effects many. Power to the Players!

#4 Mass self destruction on a scale you are talking about happens how often? Often enough to rig the rules to make it impossible becomes a priority?

+1 On Kms

+1 On Not dropping loots

Neutral on Insurance payouts (I lean towards no payout, but I can see good arguments on each side, and pressing the issue would raise more hell than it's worth)

+1 on looking at the timer. The downside of lengthening it is that people get stuck somewhere they don't want to be for longer. Upside is that small gangs can viably kill big targets, given time.

Upside of shortening it (for small stuff) is the possibility of isk intensive, but character unintensive cyno chains. Light cyno > Jump > SD cyno & pod > light cyno. Costs you a cyno ship+cyno at each stop and a good bunch of offices, but hey.

- SD should result in a KM. Doesn't matter whether that pilot is randomly chosen from all who were in on the attack or pick whoever did the most damage, but someone should get a KM. Since killboards already get "gamed", nothing much will change.

The biggest reason not to give out a KM would be "they'll see my fit! OMG!" - but since they could just ship-scan you, I don't believe that argument is convincing enough not to give out a KM.

- No loot should drop if the SD timer completes before ship destruction. This allows the pilot of the ship to decide to "burn it all" rather then let the aggressors have it. A last gesture of "screw you" to the aggressors (who still get a shiny KM, but no loot other then salvage).

- They may as well still result in insurance payouts. Unless you change things so that blue-v-blue kills don't give insurance, denying insurance for SD usage will be spitting in the wind (folks will instead just get their corp mates to help blow stuff up).

That scale may not be the most common of occurrences, but the more common occurence is like what we saw on saturday, where a few NCdot pilots in drakes (drakes) who escaped a gatecamp, safed up, selfdestructed and smugged in local about how his kill/death ratio was intact. Instead of forming a proper gang to smash the gatecampers.

Doesn't change the fact that a dread fleet has done it, simply because they fear their kill/death ratio won't be elite enough.

Zim your point is well taken it did happen, even if it does not happen as often as some seem to want to portray. I want to ask of you and the more experienced players if you think that changing the status quo might have the unintended consequence of encouraging the "self destruct to keep my elite ratio crowd" to not set out in fleets at all?

I don't think removing people's nervous escape routes is going to make them grow a pair. I think, and was encouraged by reading the minutes of the last CSM, that CCP will implement better training for new players so we don't lose the first six months we play this game avoiding where this game is played with most freedom.

Trying to stay alive in null where real live people might whack me if i get sloppy or distracted is for me a lot more fun then blowing up rats in missions. It seems like some consensus can be reached, insurance payouts for self destruction seem foolish, unless they go to the aggressing pilot. Perhaps if the aggressing pilot got the payout in lieu of the killmail they would get something besides frustration. I do support the idea of a pilot retaining the choice to destroy his ship and all it's contents if the attacker can not destroy him within a reasonable self destruct time frame for the class ship flown.

+1

Killing a cap with a smallish gang (especially a sub-BS gang) before the SD goes off is practically impossible, even if their tank is clearly broken. I know it's always been like this but if CCP is looking into it I'll add my input. Losing literally half my capital mails because I don't like to fly in giant superblobs is really irritating.

yh, it seems crazy that such a short time is needed to utterly rob any benefit of organising this type of kill.

like i already stated, its dead isn't it? that's what you was aiming for

-1 Not Supported.

If someone killing himself thats why generating to killmail for anyone else ?

I understand PL want more E-peen and officers loot when they using supcap blob.
Maybe the supcaps after SD, could throw a couple of Scrap Metal to them.

I would support this only if a part of the killmail recorded it as a self destruct.


The other parts I'm in full support of.

Pods IMO should take just a few seconds.

I would support this only if a part of the killmail recorded it as a self destruct.


The other parts I'm in full support of.

Pods IMO should take just a few seconds.

+1

It makes sense that SD timers have a direct relationship with a ship's size.