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Evil Bek	Posted - 2006.09.15 21:20:00 - [91] /signed Caldari are responsible for all the imbalance in this world... looks around ...Are you Caldari?
Nybbas A Place for Valen	Posted - 2006.09.15 21:25:00 - [92] Originally by: Celesta Croft Originally by: Kher'Aleer Allright mr. Nubb... I¦m gonna tell you something here: You, my friend are biased. What Do I mean by that? You all whiners need to stop comparing ships on a 1vs1 basis. You need to look at the bigger picture. Otherwise it¦s just as stupid as this calculation: QFT. I have yet to find the dev post which states they balance everything with regards to duels and 1v1's. its not just a imbalance in 1v1, have you read anything? IF ANYTHING my main argument is that fact that javelin torpedos arnt even balanced across weapon types. Honestly, are you not able to comprehend what you read, or do you just spew out the first things that come to your mind, without even thinking about what you are saying?
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.15 22:29:00 - [93] @ op: If you can't beat them, join them Then you will realize that those torps aren't that imbalanced as they seem. Just try to take t2 raven vs t2 thron or fleet of ravens vs fleet of throns. Or squad of ravens vs squad of domis. Speed penalty = either you get out of dictor bubbles or not. Quite relevant. I won't say they are fine in pve department, but in pvp they are ok and ballanced vs long range weapons. Just try flying with a gang... constant loading/unloading coz u need to mwd out of dictor bubbles, etc. --------------------- Looking for frentix? Mail me.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.15 22:30:00 - [94] Edited by: GO MaZ on 15/09/2006 22:34:32 I dont see what's so hard to understand. Even without looking at any real combat situation, just looking at the NUMBERS it's blatently obvious how broken they are. Torps were initially designed as a short range, high damage weapon to make up for cruise' lack of damage at short range. By introducing javelin torps, cruise missiles are now TOTALLY defunct because Jav torps are the same speed, have the same explosion radius, do more damage and have a longer flight time. How anyone can justify that as balance is clearly bat**** insane Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.09.15 22:33:00 - [95] Originally by: GO MaZ I dont see what's so hard to understand. Even without looking at any real combat situation, just looking at the NUMBERS It's blatently obvious how broken they are. Torps were initially designed as a short range, high damage weapon to make up for cruise' lack of damage at short range. By introducing javelin torps, cruise missiles are now TOTALLY defunct because Jav torps are the same speed, have the same explosion radius, do more damage and have a longer flight time. How anyone can justify that as balance is clearly bat** insane You forget it's Caldari, and Caldari just can not be anything but the #1 race Join Tharsis!** - Get Sexy Sigs
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2006.09.16 01:08:00 - [96] 1. MISSLE FLIGHT TIME MISSLE FLIGHT TIME MISSLE FLIGHT TIME DELAYED DMG DELAYED DMG Big gang/fleet? You want instant dmg at 200km, not some "omg close range dmg in 20s" Below 20km? Mega/geddon out dps raven... Plus raven is moving at 40m/s unwebbed as it is forced to use javelins... not to mention it doesn't have any serious tackling gear to do 200km The DPS charts are very very biased, they aren't practical and aren't of any use if they don't use the actual pvp conditions...
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 03:12:00 - [97] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld 1. MISSLE FLIGHT TIME MISSLE FLIGHT TIME MISSLE FLIGHT TIME DELAYED DMG DELAYED DMG To be quite frank missile flight time is a moot goddamn point. No short range weapon should be OUTRANGING ALL SNIPER SETUP BATTLESHIPS, Not least having the ability to hit at 316KM were lock limits removed. The SIMPLE FACT that a SHORT RANGE WEAPON outdamages, outranges, and outruns a long-range equivalent is utter bull**. The SIMPLE FACT that the Javelin Torpedo has a 250% range bonus over its T1 counterpart is utter bull** (Spike / Aurora = 100%). Coupled with the advantage of already being able to select your damage type, the ability to hit moving battleships down to cruisers just as, if not more effectively than a sniping battleship, and the ability to be just as effective at 2KM as at 250KM, I have to ask myself how it's not possible to see this. Just because you use them, doesn't mean they dont need a nerf. I use ECM, I sure as hell know that needs a nerf Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
DroppedAschild	Posted - 2006.09.16 05:52:00 - [98] What's with this warp out talk all the time... Javelins are the best when used with bubble. 1) duct tape a cloak on your alt in a dictor 2) wait a suitable target 3) decloak, start warp, drop bubble, warp away 4) spam your target from safety while it takes avg bs 20k/160m/s = ca 2min to clear the bubble and bbq cruisers even if they can keep transversal up \o/ 5) ??? 6) profit!
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.16 06:22:00 - [99] Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 16/09/2006 06:22:24 OK. Javs range means nothing. If a target is willing to sit still as javs fly 150 km and they don't see the nasty little trail of doom comming at them they are stupid for sitting there taking volley after volley... In long range fleet battles, or anything at long range missles are USLESS. If you have any ability as a pilot or suffering even small breaks in lag you warp out. If you don't you deserve the same death as the guy in Austin powers and the steamroller!!!
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 08:32:00 - [100] Originally by: Kelgen Thann OK. Javs range means nothing. If a target is willing to sit still as javs fly 150 km and they don't see the nasty little trail of doom comming at them they are stupid for sitting there taking volley after volley... In long range fleet battles, or anything at long range missles are USLESS. If you have any ability as a pilot or suffering even small breaks in lag you warp out. If you don't you deserve the same death as the guy in Austin powers and the steamroller!!! If the problem is with pilot stupidity, why don't blasters, autocannons and Pulse lasers hit at 250km? Oh yeah now I remember, because they're short range weapons At the current point in time caldari have two long range weapons (not including turrets here) and one of them is also exceedingly effective at close range. No other race gets that. No other race gets such a large increase in range without penalising its hitting ability (in this case, the ammo has no explosion radius / speed nerf). I'm gonna try and stop responding in this thread cos I'm starting to get like nybbas (I wonder why), but I leave you with one thing - Bull****s Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
Barbicane The Gun Club	Posted - 2006.09.16 08:40:00 - [101] Go Maz, where did you get the idea that torps are short range weapons? Here is the in-game description of a torp: An ultra-heavy unguided nuclear missile. Slow and dumb but its sheer damage potential is simply staggering. and here is that of the siege launcher: A massive launcher designed for extended bombardments of hard targets like battleships and stations. Contains a huge missile capacity, but has a slow firing rate and trouble targeting small, fast ships. Slow, yes, but that doesn't mean short range, although normal torps due to their low speed work best at short range.
trollface2 Caldari Ridin' Dirty Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.09.16 08:54:00 - [102] They get killed, they cry some, then they go red and scream nerf on the forum. Get a life /me yawnz
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.09.16 09:12:00 - [103] Edited by: welsh wizard on 16/09/2006 09:14:30 You see the problem with pulling all these stats out your arse like 'Raven can hit at 230kM!!!' is that they have no bearing what so ever on everyday Eve pvp. Game balance can't be found by analyzing every weapon and ship through its theoretical abilities. Game balance can only be found by pvp'ing with said ships day in day out. Javelins are rarely used at anything above 100km because fights above those ranges with missile ships are a complete waste of time against a competent foe. Ravens are a close range beast and when they are close they're nasty to fight (but not as nasty as a domi or a mega). I don't care whether you can set your raven up with 4 hardeners and make it megathron proof, thats just not everyday pvp. Stop analyzing, start playing. Only then will you get an idea of what a ravens actual capabilities are.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 09:35:00 - [104] So why is everyone so against capping javelins to 100km range then They're SO INNEFECTIVE above 100km but everyone still flies them. What is the point of using cruise when you can use jav torps? Pretty much none if you want to hit long range. DISCOUNT the fact that the numbers pretty much show it all, the fact that a single t2 ammo totally nullifies another weapon type (cruise) by being better in just about every single way is just stupid. As for the item description... slow and dumb? 8400m/s isnt slow (omfg, cruise missile speed anyone? ) Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.09.16 10:07:00 - [105] Well for the difference between cruise missiles and torps, first off cruise missiles have the guided missile precision skill which makes the explosion radius alot lower. The torps have no aid from this skill cruise launchers are alot easier to fit than siege launchers. You end up with alot more possibilities to fit your ship cruise launchers can fit fof cruise missiles, (eventhough they suck and always go after the drones) and slowing down to 30 m/s in a raven really makes a difference I really don't think the javelin torps nullifies the cruise missiles.
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.09.16 10:32:00 - [106] I swear people won't be happy until torps can only hit bs.
maomini	Posted - 2006.09.16 10:40:00 - [107] :(
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.09.16 10:41:00 - [108] Originally by: Shin Ra I swear people won't be happy until torps can only hit bs. Aye
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 10:46:00 - [109] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Well for the difference between cruise missiles and torps, first off cruise missiles have the guided missile precision skill which makes the explosion radius alot lower. The torps have no aid from this skill Sure, they dont have the skill, but their explosion radius and their speed are enough to take anything down to cruisers very effectively, mwd or not. They're not very good on frigates but I should hope not, neither are blasters, rails, tachyons or autocannons. Originally by: Lucian Corvinus cruise launchers are alot easier to fit than siege launchers. You end up with alot more possibilities to fit your ship Even with siege fitted, you can fit a xl 5cl, em, kin, therm 55% and an invul field + heavy injector. Not a bad tank at all, especially considering any other ship trying to hit 250km will have at most a 1-slot tank (med rep) - the only other ship that can effectively hit to 250km is the mega, with hardwirings and even then it's into falloff by a good distance. Originally by: Lucian Corvinus cruise launchers can fit fof cruise missiles, (eventhough they suck and always go after the drones) I'll give you this, you do sorta leave yourself open to ecm, but no other race has this ability with their primary weapon system, everyone else relies on drones if they become jammed (lol, sorry amarrians). I know the raven can fit 3 heavies... not exactly amazing but it's there nonetheless. Originally by: Lucian Corvinus and slowing down to 30 m/s in a raven really makes a difference What? Yeah you cant get out of bubbles and such very easily, but you aren't penalised at all at being able to hit things. Turrets get -% tracking, which affects how you hit, but -% speed on a ship that has no tracking really makes little difference. Apart from the fact you can use javelin torps to enter warp faster than usual Oh also, you can be fully aligned and up to speed continually and you dont have to ever worry about range if you're under 250km. You can exit instantly whenever you feel like it. Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.09.16 10:57:00 - [110] Edited by: welsh wizard on 16/09/2006 11:01:41 edit: waste of time
Cohkka LoneWolf Mining R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:03:00 - [111] Originally by: GO MaZ I dont care if they hit anything smaller than BS, thats fair enough, but doing it from 316 (rofl arbitrary number) kilometers is.. interesting to say the least. Yet still, no-one has explained to me - If torpedoes are so utterly useless above 100km, whats the problem with nerfing their flight time so they only have a 100km max range? That's what bothers me, too. At least CMs should have some uses, in the current state they don't. What most people don't get is one thing: With Raven you have one of the most versitale ships, with torps you GOT the most versitale ship, not even the Domi comes close. The ability of doing damage at any range between 0 and /insert any range is pretty awesome. turretbased BS are very limited and have to decide whenever they want to fit close or shortrange. Ravens got their uses in longrange fights as well. They are awesome at killing the support. Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5...
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:05:00 - [112] How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km?
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:06:00 - [113] Originally by: welsh wizard How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km? Er, cruise missiles Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
HellsRazor Caldari FACTA NON VERBA	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:08:00 - [114] nerf nuetron-blasterthron :)
Zanarkand Gallente Enterprise Estonia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:11:00 - [115] Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: welsh wizard How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km? Er, cruise missiles make cruise missles have a base speed 50km/s and we would be fine
HellsRazor Caldari FACTA NON VERBA	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:12:00 - [116] Originally by: Zanarkand Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: welsh wizard How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km? Er, cruise missiles make cruise missles have a base speed 50km/s and we would be fine yes please :)
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:27:00 - [117] Originally by: Shin Ra I swear people won't be happy until torps can only hit bs. It's something like: others can't put any tank to speak off or enough EW and use long range guns. Railthron or Artypest will die miserable death when astarte is "landed" on top of him to tackle, torp raven... byby in 5-6 volleys... Ok, thron might have a little chance if it uses 5x t2 berserkers and 2 racial jammers ... great long range setup, eh? But don't get this as whining, i was flying that evil raven :) It might not be really ballanced, but after more than a year of constant whoruming and whining, i decided to join rather than fight EVE gods and bought caldari char. Oh and with < 25mil sp i have nothing relevant to train on it... so much about missile tree that requires too much training. --------------------- Looking for frentix? Mail me.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:32:00 - [118] Edited by: welsh wizard on 16/09/2006 11:31:53 Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: welsh wizard How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km? Er, cruise missiles They don't do enough damage. Also Ravens don't 'fight at range', the best they can hope for is to 'deter at range'. You have to fly it dude you really do, until then, give over.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:35:00 - [119] Originally by: Zanarkand Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: welsh wizard How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km? Er, cruise missiles make cruise missles have a base speed 50km/s and we would be fine Cruise speed is fine considering the range they do. Everyone knows missile ships aren't much use at range unless you're using BE-style tactics to keep your target sticking around - thats their disandvantage. Their advantage is being able to hit every time when in range, massive burst damage and being able to fit a rather impressive tank and still being effective from 0 - 250km (provided you can keep your target around). If you really have a problem with missiles being crap in fleets because they dont fly a billion m/s, buy a scorp and fit rails. **** damage, but instant damage. It's a given that missiles dont have instant damage, and somehow that makes it ok to give +250% range bonuses and +Damage over its T1 counterpart. Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
Goberth Ludwig eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:36:00 - [120] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 16/09/2006 09:53:02 You see the problem with pulling all these stats out your arse like 'Raven can hit at 230kM!!!' is that they have no bearing what so ever on everyday Eve pvp. Game balance can't be found by analyzing every weapon and ship through its theoretical abilities. Game balance can only be found by pvp'ing with said ships day in day out. Javelins are rarely used at anything above 100km because fights above those ranges with missile ships are a complete waste of time against a competent foe. Ravens are a close range beast and when they are close they're nasty to fight (but not as nasty as a domi or a mega). I don't care whether you can set your raven up with 4 hardeners and make it megathron proof, thats just not everyday pvp. Stop analyzing, start playing. Only then will you get an idea of what a ravens actual capabilities are. The op and Go Maz have a quite astonishing idea of a Ravens capabilities which they have gleaned only be crunching numbers and reading these forums. Like I said above you have to fly and confront the Raven day in day out to appreciate its true ability. It's true ability is in its flexibility and the option to armour or shield tank while using ECM. It's weapon system doesn't out damage any of the other races battleships at realistic ranges. As for that graph you posted Maz, the first thing that becomes immediately apparent to me as a very experienced pvp'er is that the Raven does the least damage. In an everyday pvp situation damage is everything. As an experienced Raven pilot I don't engage people at anything above 100km with my Javelin Raven unless I have a tackler. In fact sensor boosted Ravens are quite rare (as its a mid-slot gimp) so hitting above 100km doesn't happen anyway. You're using a very unlikely situation to demonstrate your dislike for the Raven. A situation that almost never comes about in Eve. A Raven with 3 sensor boosters sniping at a gate from 180km with a bubble dropper. A job which a turret ship could do far better btw.... QFT. The raven is a good ship but for the opposite reasons of those which people are whining about in this thread. Welsh has it nailed what makes the ravens good is the perfect slot layout for medium sized gangs (allowing for ecm whoring + plates), not the fact it can hit that far. - Gob [IXC] Admiral Goberius

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