Originally by: Nybbas

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So basically the only penalty you incur from fitting these is... a minor speed penalty, which means basically nothing... correct?

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Welcome to the world of T2 ammo. They are not affected by the Guided Missile Precision skill though and cruise are, so another minor drawback.
And despite being quite powerful, I don't think Javs are nearly as overpowderedÖ as some of the T2 turret ammo.
On the notion of same damage as T1, the precision standard missiles actually do MORE damage than their T1 counterpart. Gotta love how consistent CCP is about inconsistencies

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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I don't think Javs are nearly as overpowderedÖ as some of the T2 turret ammo.

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Originally by: Nybbas

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What i dont understand is, the point of tech 2 ammo wasnt to make all the tech 1 variants obsolete, but they are meant to fulfill a niche... yet javelin torpedos are COMPLETELY superior to normal torpedos in EVERY aspect except they nerf your speed, which in a raven is a COMPLETE non issue, something you dont even look twice at.

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Originally by: Nybbas

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What i dont understand is, the point of tech 2 ammo wasnt to make all the tech 1 variants obsolete, but they are meant to fulfill a niche... yet javelin torpedos are COMPLETELY superior to normal torpedos in EVERY aspect except they nerf your speed, which in a raven is a COMPLETE non issue, something you dont even look twice at.

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Let's not forget that thar' price tag. And When They Remove Instas (tm) speed will become very relevant again.

IMO though, Javelins are nice, yes, but only for the lowered signature. The range is pretty meh, since I've only ever hit NPCs with cruise missiles at >80km anyway.

T2 ammo in general is a bit broken IMO. Especially stuff like spike, the ultra long range turret ammo, and the ultra high power short range gank ammo.

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Originally by: Nybbas

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so i was just looking at the stats of these, and unless I'm going crazy are they really...

1. the exact same flight speed as a cruise missile with a 5 second longer flight time?

2. the exact same explosion radius, and velocity as a cruise missile?

3. the exact same damage as a normal non t2 torpedo?

So basically the only penalty you incur from fitting these is... a minor speed penalty, which means basically nothing... correct? Your Torps fly farther than any cruise missile, and hit just as well as a cruise missile, except you get torpedo damage? I thought AT LEAST javelin torps would do less damage since they are the "long range" variant of their t2 type....

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Originally by: Nybbas

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also the damage spike ammo does, a raven will tank you all day long if you try to shoot them from 200km out with spike while they lob jav torps at you and force you to warp in a matter of a few volleys and 25 second travel time to get to you. spike overpowered? hardly. (and no spike wont hit anything smaller than a cruiser thats not sitting still, and it wont 1 volley even a tech 1 cruiser, so anything really has plenty of time to warp off. Spike is fairly balanced, and javelin nerfs the crap out of your shields) I would be happy if jav torps cut shields by 20% per, or cap like the rage ones do

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Originally by: Nybbas

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also the damage spike ammo does, a raven will tank you all day long if you try to shoot them from 200km out with spike while they lob jav torps at you and force you to warp in a matter of a few volleys and 25 second travel time to get to you. spike overpowered? hardly. (and no spike wont hit anything smaller than a cruiser thats not sitting still, and it wont 1 volley even a tech 1 cruiser, so anything really has plenty of time to warp off. Spike is fairly balanced, and javelin nerfs the crap out of your shields) I would be happy if jav torps cut shields by 20% per, or cap like the rage ones do

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Warp out being the operative point. The guy with spike is dealing damage, and the guy with Javelins is not. Yes, you get into issues of tank breaking, but you always do at snipe ranges. These go away if you start talking about smaller ships/more snipers.

Javelin messes up your shields, which is hardly much of a penalty on an armour tanking ship. The Rokh is going to really feel that pain though.

My biggest problem with stuff like spike is that a T1 fitted ship just can't do anything about it. At least with javelins, you can return fire with cruise missiles (albeit at a damage penalty, but you always get that with T2 vs T1)

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Edited by: welsh wizard on 14/09/2006 17:10:53
You get about 40m/s out of a raven with 6 Jav loaded.

edit: A big hit, constant reloading/unloading required to move about.

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Originally by: xlop

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tbh they should of got the nerf at the same time as percision cruise, they are clearly wayyyy overpwoered


if they got the speed of cruise, hence the distance and also less time to impact they should have HIGHER than torp sig

javlin torps:
dmg: same as t1
Speed: same as cruise
Sig: 500 [not 300]


if that is not acceptable, then reduce their flight time so that its range is no more than 30km on a raven with max skill!!

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Originally by: Guurzak

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One small point that hasn't been mentioned: You can't load FoFs in a siege launcher.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Gallente needs nerf too. Moros, Thantos, Ishkur, dominix, ishtar, megathorn need a very very big nerf, too... don't you agree?

at 200km spike L mega >>> t2 torp raven

at 10km t2 blastermega >>> t2 raven

Try fitting siege 2 launchers. to shoot at 200km you need 2 x sensor booster(hello tank the hell out of "shieldtank"). 40m/s means no mobility AT ALL.

t1 torps are really bad(400m base sig radius is unacceptable), without javelins there wouldn't be much of a reason to use Raven at all...

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Originally by: Christopher Dalran

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Just hope you dont run into a Remote sensor damp intesinve group of players, your crappy speed will kill you.

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Originally by: Nybbas

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The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?

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Originally by: GC13

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Originally by: Nybbas

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The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?

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It's even worse than that. For turrets, +25% to optimal and +25% to falloff = +25% to range, period. For missiles, +50% to flight time and +50% to speed = +125% to range. OUCH.

I'd agree with dropping all missile range bonuses (the skills as well as, for instance, the Raven's velocity bonus) to 5%.

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Gallente needs nerf too. Moros, Thantos, Ishkur, dominix, ishtar, megathorn need a very very big nerf, too... don't you agree?

at 200km spike L mega >>> t2 torp raven

at 10km t2 blastermega >>> t2 raven

Try fitting siege 2 launchers. to shoot at 200km you need 2 x sensor booster(hello tank the hell out of "shieldtank"). 40m/s means no mobility AT ALL.

t1 torps are really bad(400m base sig radius is unacceptable), without javelins there wouldn't be much of a reason to use Raven at all...

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uhmmm actually a javelin raven will own the crap out of a 200km spike using megathron.... that raven will tank him all day due to his pitiful damage... and up close a raven with the same layout (ok maybe no sensor boosters but more tank) will beat a blasterthron every time, if the raven is worth anything.

and please oh please kind sir explain to me why mobility is needed for a raven? when all you really need to do is align?

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Oh, the torps are flying... flying... euh nevermind the mega warped off, taking no damage.... wee how amazing. The 200km torp thing is overrated...

Close range mega outdpses raven veeery bad. The tank is similar, but raven has no tackiling gear (at best 3 web drones + 20km scram) leaving the megathorn an escape door if needed. Raven does like what... 600dps? Void mega does like 800+ without drones.

moving 4-5 times faster is always good(bad/no instas, whatever)

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Originally by: Tonya Nastee

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If it were blaster ammo, it would be hitting 50km out, with AM damage and 50% tracking boost. But that's all ok since it's all balanced by the fact you can't move into optimal... ohh wait

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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It would be?

ceptor sig = ~20-25ish
cruiser sg = ~135

t2 torps get a very big dmg reduction that they can't avoid in any way(target painters = medslot), compare that to what a dominix, spile l mega, null mega does to a cruiser. t2 torps do little dmg to ceptors, nothing worthy of mention... same as L weapons.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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XL booster 2= 600shield/360cap, 120 hp / s
2 invul t2 = a little less than 50%+ resists to all, 6 cap/s
add in an shield boost amp and you get +30% better hp/s, hp/cap

2 LAR2 = 142 hp/s
2 eanm + dc = around +50% to all resists, no cap use

Raven has +9% better shield boost, worse hp/cap(not counting 6cap/s from invul)

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Originally by: Nybbas

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The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?

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Originally by: Raider Zero

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Originally by: Nybbas

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The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?

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Because there's no module that drastically increases the range of missiles.

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Nybbas

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So basically the only penalty you incur from fitting these is... a minor speed penalty, which means basically nothing... correct?

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Isnt it like 10% speed reduction per torpedo?

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I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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It would be?

ceptor sig = ~20-25ish
cruiser sg = ~135

t2 torps get a very big dmg reduction that they can't avoid in any way(target painters = medslot), compare that to what a dominix, spile l mega, null mega does to a cruiser. t2 torps do little dmg to ceptors, nothing worthy of mention... same as L weapons.

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Battleship guns will not hit a cruiser if it's moving at all, or webbed, in which case you have to be within 10k. Jav torps can 3-volley a plated thorax. But anyway, I still dont understand why you just brought up cruisers when this was a discussion about jav torps (BS weaps)

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I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Close range mega outdpses raven veeery bad. The tank is similar, but raven has no tackiling gear (at best 3 web drones + 20km scram) leaving the megathorn an escape door if needed. Raven does like what... 600dps? Void mega does like 800+ without drones.

moving 4-5 times faster is always good(bad/no instas, whatever)

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Originally by: Abdalion

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Originally by: Jebidus Skari

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What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?

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Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.

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Originally by: Grimpak

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Close range mega outdpses raven veeery bad. The tank is similar, but raven has no tackiling gear (at best 3 web drones + 20km scram) leaving the megathorn an escape door if needed. Raven does like what... 600dps? Void mega does like 800+ without drones.

moving 4-5 times faster is always good(bad/no instas, whatever)

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rage torps + target painters


javelins are very multipurpose it's true, but they are not the only torp arround.

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I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: Malthros Zenobia

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Originally by: Grimpak

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Close range mega outdpses raven veeery bad. The tank is similar, but raven has no tackiling gear (at best 3 web drones + 20km scram) leaving the megathorn an escape door if needed. Raven does like what... 600dps? Void mega does like 800+ without drones.

moving 4-5 times faster is always good(bad/no instas, whatever)

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rage torps + target painters


javelins are very multipurpose it's true, but they are not the only torp arround.

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You need either support or no tank, at all, to make use of rage torps against another BS.

If you don't web, the non-AB speed of a BS will cut rage torp dmg. You need atleast 3 TPs, a web, or 2, and then you get 1, maybe 2 slots left for tanking. Your 1k or so DPS (which requires a few BCUs, hurting an armor tank) might look nice, but you have no tanking, or you need logistics ship, which will get blown to hell asap.

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Originally by: Abdalion

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Originally by: Jebidus Skari

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What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?

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Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.

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Originally by: X Rated

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blah blah blah....


So what have we learned from this?

1) Javelin still can't hit a frig who isn't webbed.

2) Snipers are no longer immune to return fire

3) Cruisers are not meant to kill BS 1v1 no matter how uber their setup

4) It still takes 20-30 seconds for torps to hit from range, so people can't say "OMG how dare that raven be able to shoot me from 200km out and leave me only 20 seconds to shoot at him before getting hit myself."

Alright thats off my chest and I'm Spent

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Originally by: Azerrad InExile

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Originally by: Raider Zero

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Originally by: Nybbas

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The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?

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Because there's no module that drastically increases the range of missiles.

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Would you be happy is we removed tracking computers and gave all guns a 100% increase in range? How about if we cut missle range in half and gave missles a module that "drastically" increases the range of missles?

/Apparently drastically increasing range = a 15% increase.

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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My biggest problem with stuff like spike is that a T1 fitted ship just can't do anything about it. At least with javelins, you can return fire with cruise missiles (albeit at a damage penalty, but you always get that with T2 vs T1)

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Originally by: Raider Zero

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Originally by: Azerrad InExile

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Originally by: Raider Zero

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Originally by: Nybbas

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The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?

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Because there's no module that drastically increases the range of missiles.

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javelin torps hit the same as a cruise missile without the precision skill, except they have a 150 damage bonus over cruise missiles which about makes up for that minor difference. Javelin Torps *****cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships.

Would you be happy is we removed tracking computers and gave all guns a 100% increase in range? How about if we cut missle range in half and gave missles a module that "drastically" increases the range of missles?

/Apparently drastically increasing range = a 15% increase.

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Obviously you missed the fact that I'm Minmatar. I fly Tempests and Machs mainly. I just feel that all T2 ammo is very powerful and that's the way it is. Artillery/Rail ships with range bonuses serve a role, so do missile boats.

Fact is, shooting torps from 200Km is all well and good, but you'll never hit a single PvPer. Even if you do, it has to be a BS to do a lot of damage. Your complaint only applies to PvE, and in PvE nobody is going to warp in to 15 KM (only deadspace missions recently-no more warp-in @ 100) and then fly 200KM out in a slow ship to snipe, then fly back to get to the gate.

You point out that there is a difference, not that there is an advantage.

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Originally by: Malthros Zenobia

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Battleship guns wont hit a cruiser? ORLY?

You've never seen a tempest instapop cruisers from 150km or so methinks.

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: X Rated

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blah blah blah....


So what have we learned from this?

1) Javelin still can't hit a frig who isn't webbed.

2) Snipers are no longer immune to return fire

3) Cruisers are not meant to kill BS 1v1 no matter how uber their setup

4) It still takes 20-30 seconds for torps to hit from range, so people can't say "OMG how dare that raven be able to shoot me from 200km out and leave me only 20 seconds to shoot at him before getting hit myself."

Alright thats off my chest and I'm Spent

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Yeah except have you ever tried to shoot a frigate with spike ammo from even 230km in a megathron??? if its moving AT ALL you wont hit it. your tracking is WAY too nerfed, maybe a tech 1 frig is screwed but ONO 200k isk lost!!. Battleships wont hit frigs that arnt webbed or completely stopped and mwding either, kthx.

Sniper not only arnt immune to return fire, missile users to SUPERB damage with their long range weapons, AND amazing damage with their close range all the same, you call this balanced? i would LOVE to hit for full damage from 3km with my railguns like you missile users get to, WHILE still hitting for max damage at 200km.

and to everyone who keeps bringing up "fleet" engagements, first off if those same ravens ended up 10km from their sniping opponents, the opponents would SCREWED, and on top of that i have said over and over the only thing the raven doesnt completely excell at is long range fleet combat. which is VERY VERY Few of the battles that ever take place in this game.

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Originally by: X Rated

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OMG, if you can't hit a frig or even a cruiser at 200km then you don't need to be in a mega. FFS. Learn how to set up your spots so they aren't moving perpendicular to you. I have probably 1/2 the skills of you and can do it easy.

And if you FOR ANY REASON think that a BC or a Cruiser should not be wtfpwned in 3 volleys by a BS then you are retarded sir.

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Originally by: X Rated

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And if you FOR ANY REASON think that a BC or a Cruiser should not be wtfpwned in 3 volleys by a BS then you are retarded sir.

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Forcing the mega to warp off = raven wins

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Originally by: Nybbas

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The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?

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Originally by: Azerrad InExile

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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XL booster 2= 600shield/360cap, 120 hp / s
2 invul t2 = a little less than 50%+ resists to all, 6 cap/s
add in an shield boost amp and you get +30% better hp/s, hp/cap

2 LAR2 = 142 hp/s
2 eanm + dc = around +50% to all resists, no cap use

Raven has +9% better shield boost, worse hp/cap(not counting 6cap/s from invul)

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Why are you not including a dc in the Raven setup? Also you have to survive at least 12 seconds for those 2 LAR2 to be of any use whatsoever while the shield boost is instant and cycle time is much shorter. In PVP having to wait 12 seconds for any repair to happen is not a good thing.

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Originally by: LordZer00

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No, it just means the Mega warps back in a minute later, or waits for friends... Making an enemy ship warp away does *not* equal winning. That's like saying that making an enemy soldier retreat is as strategically benificial as killing him. Its not, thats still another pair of hands with a weapon in your immediate vicinity.

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Originally by: Areconus

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HUH? sit down and do your math again....it adds approximately 5km to your range for every lvl in proj/bombard...now that is 10% at 50 km...but if your range is 150km...thats 3.3%.........

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Gallente needs nerf too. Moros, Thantos, Ishkur, dominix, ishtar, megathorn need a very very big nerf, too... don't you agree?

at 200km spike L mega >>> t2 torp raven

at 10km t2 blastermega >>> t2 raven

Try fitting siege 2 launchers. to shoot at 200km you need 2 x sensor booster(hello tank the hell out of "shieldtank"). 40m/s means no mobility AT ALL.

t1 torps are really bad(400m base sig radius is unacceptable), without javelins there wouldn't be much of a reason to use Raven at all...

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uhmmm actually a javelin raven will own the crap out of a 200km spike using megathron.... that raven will tank him all day due to his pitiful damage... and up close a raven with the same layout (ok maybe no sensor boosters but more tank) will beat a blasterthron every time, if the raven is worth anything.

and please oh please kind sir explain to me why mobility is needed for a raven? when all you really need to do is align?

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Oh, the torps are flying... flying... euh nevermind the mega warped off, taking no damage.... wee how amazing. The 200km torp thing is overrated...

Close range mega outdpses raven veeery bad. The tank is similar, but raven has no tackiling gear (at best 3 web drones + 20km scram) leaving the megathorn an escape door if needed. Raven does like what... 600dps? Void mega does like 800+ without drones.

moving 4-5 times faster is always good(bad/no instas, whatever)

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Originally by: X Rated

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Edited by: X Rated on 14/09/2006 20:26:32

Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: X Rated

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blah blah blah....


So what have we learned from this?

1) Javelin still can't hit a frig who isn't webbed.

2) Snipers are no longer immune to return fire

3) Cruisers are not meant to kill BS 1v1 no matter how uber their setup

4) It still takes 20-30 seconds for torps to hit from range, so people can't say "OMG how dare that raven be able to shoot me from 200km out and leave me only 20 seconds to shoot at him before getting hit myself."

Alright thats off my chest and I'm Spent

---

Yeah except have you ever tried to shoot a frigate with spike ammo from even 230km in a megathron??? if its moving AT ALL you wont hit it. your tracking is WAY too nerfed, maybe a tech 1 frig is screwed but ONO 200k isk lost!!. Battleships wont hit frigs that arnt webbed or completely stopped and mwding either, kthx.

Sniper not only arnt immune to return fire, missile users to SUPERB damage with their long range weapons, AND amazing damage with their close range all the same, you call this balanced? i would LOVE to hit for full damage from 3km with my railguns like you missile users get to, WHILE still hitting for max damage at 200km.

and to everyone who keeps bringing up "fleet" engagements, first off if those same ravens ended up 10km from their sniping opponents, the opponents would SCREWED, and on top of that i have said over and over the only thing the raven doesnt completely excell at is long range fleet combat. which is VERY VERY Few of the battles that ever take place in this game.

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OMG, if you can't hit a frig or even a cruiser at 200km then you don't need to be in a mega. FFS. Learn how to set up your spots so they aren't moving perpendicular to you. I have probably 1/2 the skills of you and can do it easy.

And if you FOR ANY REASON think that a BC or a Cruiser should not be wtfpwned in 3 volleys by a BS then you are retarded sir.

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Originally by: Altai Saker

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I cant really think of any reason why any races closerange weapon should hit out to 200km...

I mean why even try to rationalize that? How much whining do you think you would see if a blasterthron hit out to just 60km?

It's not reasonable and jav torps along with all torps should have a maxrange of 60... thats still very good for the dps of a torpraven.

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Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff

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Look at the figures on that graph.. Zero speed, zero transversal, and a 400m sig radius.. You are shooting a battleship at a dead stop.. What kind of comparison is that?.. Perhaps try it again with a speed of say 100-250 m/s.. Maybe with progressively higher transversals?.. Perhaps compare it again against a cruiser sized target and speeds?.. And then against a frig?..

Torpedos were made to kill battleships, however they are next to worthless against smaller ships.. Turrets do not have that problem, however they do have tracking and range issues.. While the turret DPS may not be as high against specific targets, they are far more flexible against various target types than torpedos are..

Please, if you are going to post graphs and numbers, at least post meaningful ones..

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Some more "useful" graphs along with the one I already posted - the ravenmega_ ones compare a siege raven with javs and without javs and a 425 t2 mega with thorium and spike (same damage) against different targets with some possible values for speed & transversal.

All are mwd off btw so no uber sig radius

Javelin Comparisons

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Originally by: Nybbas

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At this point I am thoroughly convinced you are either just trying to troll, or are a complete and utter noob... you will NEVER hit a frigate moving in any direction from 200km using spike ammo, the chances of what you said "lining up" are so incredibly slim that its a non factor. Spike ammo rapes your tracking WAY too much to be able to hit ships that are cruiser sized and move fast, or are frigate sized and moving.

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Originally by: Reza Pahlavi

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torps should have a max range of 30km tops, to be ******* honest.

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Edited by: GO MaZ on 14/09/2006 21:52:54
Edited by: GO MaZ on 14/09/2006 21:47:52
I think this illustrates nybbas point more effectively



"Short Range" BS

Now remember, torps are sposed to be CLOSE RANGE weapons.

(Pls dont shoot me for the tempest, I have no idea about typical AC-pest setups so just shoved one together in quickfit to see how it compared).

I honestly think the graph speaks for itself.

edit: yes I know that rage torps are generally **** against bs, that graph includes triple painters and it's just a basic comparison - the only things you need on there are typical "close-range" bs setups to see whats wrong

edit2: cleaned up the graph a little

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Originally by: Areconus

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Noo i dont think torps are neccessarily meant to be close range...and the void mega does more than twice the damage in its optimal

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Originally by: Gariuys

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Yeah and void has this amazing 150km range....... oh wait no that's 5km range... insert lotsa flames and name calling here for someone saying that cause void does more damage, javeling torps are fine. They're not fine, they're so broken it's not even funny.

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I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: Nybbas

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which doesnt matter on a missile ship because they DONT have to worry about transverse or "getting into range" they only have to worry about aligning to warp...

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I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: Areconus

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Edited by: GO MaZ on 14/09/2006 21:52:54
Edited by: GO MaZ on 14/09/2006 21:47:52
I think this illustrates nybbas point more effectively



"Short Range" BS

Now remember, torps are sposed to be CLOSE RANGE weapons.

(Pls dont shoot me for the tempest, I have no idea about typical AC-pest setups so just shoved one together in quickfit to see how it compared).

I honestly think the graph speaks for itself.

edit: yes I know that rage torps are generally **** against bs, that graph includes triple painters and it's just a basic comparison - the only things you need on there are typical "close-range" bs setups to see whats wrong

edit2: cleaned up the graph a little

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Noo i dont think torps are neccessarily meant to be close range...and the void mega does more than twice the damage in its optimal....btw how much closer would the rage raven be to the void mega with 5 tps?

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I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: Nybbas

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PEOPLE a Javelin Torp raven WILL either kill or force ANY other sniping ship to flee in an engagement thats at 100km +

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Originally by: Malthros Zenobia

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Originally by: Nybbas

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which doesnt matter on a missile ship because they DONT have to worry about transverse or "getting into range" they only have to worry about aligning to warp...

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Yor arguements are all fine and dandy until you say crap like this.

How is not self-webbing the **** out of yourself something that 'doesnt matter'?

A BS going 20m/s isgoing to be alot easier to hit, with any weapon, including XL TURRETS, so saying the lack of speed doesn't matter because the raven doesn't have tracking on missiles, is bogus.

CCP was suppose to nerf the damage on all T2 precision missiles, and they didn't on some, so bug report it, hell petition it if it makes you feel better, however these whines are tiresome.

How about we make void and similiar ammo only do full damage to capital-sized ships? Then everyone else can have almost-useless high DPS t2 ammo too.

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Originally by: Shiraz Merlot

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Originally by: Nybbas

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PEOPLE a Javelin Torp raven WILL either kill or force ANY other sniping ship to flee in an engagement thats at 100km +

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On the other hand, a medium-sized gang of spike users at 200km will beat a similarly sized precision torp gang. Simply because they can warp in, snipe a torp user, and warp out without taking any damage.

Horses for courses, but Ravens don't do well in ranged fleet battles.

/sm

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Originally by: Malthros Zenobia

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How about we make void and similiar ammo only do full damage to capital-sized ships? Then everyone else can have almost-useless high DPS t2 ammo too.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Close range mega outdpses raven veeery bad. The tank is similar, but raven has no tackiling gear (at best 3 web drones + 20km scram) leaving the megathorn an escape door if needed.

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Originally by: Kher'Aleer

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Allright mr. Nubb...
I¦m gonna tell you something here:
You, my friend are biased.

What Do I mean by that?

You all whiners need to stop comparing ships on a 1vs1 basis.
You need to look at the bigger picture.
Otherwise it¦s just as stupid as this calculation:

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Originally by: Celesta Croft

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Originally by: Kher'Aleer

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Allright mr. Nubb...
I¦m gonna tell you something here:
You, my friend are biased.

What Do I mean by that?

You all whiners need to stop comparing ships on a 1vs1 basis.
You need to look at the bigger picture.
Otherwise it¦s just as stupid as this calculation:

---

QFT. I have yet to find the dev post which states they balance everything with regards to duels and 1v1's.

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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I dont see what's so hard to understand. Even without looking at any real combat situation, just looking at the NUMBERS It's blatently obvious how broken they are. Torps were initially designed as a short range, high damage weapon to make up for cruise' lack of damage at short range.
By introducing javelin torps, cruise missiles are now TOTALLY defunct because Jav torps are the same speed, have the same explosion radius, do more damage and have a longer flight time. How anyone can justify that as balance is clearly bat**** insane

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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1. MISSLE FLIGHT TIME MISSLE FLIGHT TIME MISSLE FLIGHT TIME DELAYED DMG DELAYED DMG

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Originally by: Kelgen Thann

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OK. Javs range means nothing. If a target is willing to sit still as javs fly 150 km and they don't see the nasty little trail of doom comming at them they are stupid for sitting there taking volley after volley...

In long range fleet battles, or anything at long range missles are USLESS. If you have any ability as a pilot or suffering even small breaks in lag you warp out.

If you don't you deserve the same death as the guy in Austin powers and the steamroller!!!

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Originally by: Shin Ra

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I swear people won't be happy until torps can only hit bs.

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Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

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Well for the difference between cruise missiles and torps, first off cruise missiles have the guided missile precision skill which makes the explosion radius alot lower. The torps have no aid from this skill

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Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

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cruise launchers are alot easier to fit than siege launchers. You end up with alot more possibilities to fit your ship

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Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

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cruise launchers can fit fof cruise missiles, (eventhough they suck and always go after the drones)

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Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

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and slowing down to 30 m/s in a raven really makes a difference

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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I dont care if they hit anything smaller than BS, thats fair enough, but doing it from 316 (rofl arbitrary number) kilometers is.. interesting to say the least. Yet still, no-one has explained to me - If torpedoes are so utterly useless above 100km, whats the problem with nerfing their flight time so they only have a 100km max range?

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km?

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km?

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Er, cruise missiles

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Originally by: Zanarkand

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km?

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Er, cruise missiles

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make cruise missles have a base speed 50km/s and we would be fine

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Originally by: Shin Ra

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I swear people won't be happy until torps can only hit bs.

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km?

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Er, cruise missiles

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Originally by: Zanarkand

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km?

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Er, cruise missiles

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make cruise missles have a base speed 50km/s and we would be fine

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Edited by: welsh wizard on 16/09/2006 09:53:02
You see the problem with pulling all these stats out your arse like 'Raven can hit at 230kM!!!' is that they have no bearing what so ever on everyday Eve pvp.

Game balance can't be found by analyzing every weapon and ship through its theoretical abilities. Game balance can only be found by pvp'ing with said ships day in day out.

Javelins are rarely used at anything above 100km because fights above those ranges with missile ships are a complete waste of time against a competent foe. Ravens are a close range beast and when they are close they're nasty to fight (but not as nasty as a domi or a mega). I don't care whether you can set your raven up with 4 hardeners and make it megathron proof, thats just not everyday pvp.

Stop analyzing, start playing. Only then will you get an idea of what a ravens actual capabilities are.

The op and Go Maz have a quite astonishing idea of a Ravens capabilities which they have gleaned only be crunching numbers and reading these forums. Like I said above you have to fly and confront the Raven day in day out to appreciate its true ability.

It's true ability is in its flexibility and the option to armour or shield tank while using ECM. It's weapon system doesn't out damage any of the other races battleships at realistic ranges.

As for that graph you posted Maz, the first thing that becomes immediately apparent to me as a very experienced pvp'er is that the Raven does the least damage. In an everyday pvp situation damage is everything.

As an experienced Raven pilot I don't engage people at anything above 100km with my Javelin Raven unless I have a tackler. In fact sensor boosted Ravens are quite rare (as its a mid-slot gimp) so hitting above 100km doesn't happen anyway.

You're using a very unlikely situation to demonstrate your dislike for the Raven. A situation that almost never comes about in Eve. A Raven with 3 sensor boosters sniping at a gate from 180km with a bubble dropper.

A job which a turret ship could do far better btw....

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Well snod this is another endlessly argued point.

I'd say that you only ever become truly good in a Raven once you have a hell of a lot of skillpoints in Engineering, Missiles, Caldari BS V and atleast tech II medium/light drone capability (vital to a torp pilot becuase fitting heavy nos isn't really possible).

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Well snod this is another endlessly argued point.

I'd say that you only ever become truly good in a Raven once you have a hell of a lot of skillpoints in Engineering, Missiles, Caldari BS V and atleast tech II medium/light drone capability (vital to a torp pilot becuase fitting heavy nos isn't really possible).

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Well snod this is another endlessly argued point.

I'd say that you only ever become truly good in a Raven once you have a hell of a lot of skillpoints in Engineering, Missiles, Caldari BS V and atleast tech II medium/light drone capability (vital to a torp pilot becuase fitting heavy nos isn't really possible).

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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As for the item description... slow and dumb? 8400m/s isnt slow (omfg, cruise missile speed anyone? )

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Originally by: Barbicane

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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As for the item description... slow and dumb? 8400m/s isnt slow (omfg, cruise missile speed anyone? )

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What I intended to show with those descriptions was that there is no CCP design decision saying torps are intended to be used at short range - which is what you were arguing for earlier. Then you turned around started blaming the raven instead...

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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The T1 ver has less range, is slower and does more damage than cruise missiles. That pretty much fits it into a close range role and that makes sense considering the damage of cruise at close range compared to blasters, pulses or ac's is low.
I just dont see why ccp would implement 2 long-range weapons for battleship class ships. We have rockets and standards for frigate sizes, Assaults and Heavies for cruiser and bs (when assault missiles get released that is) and that naturally leads on to torps and cruise, one for short range, high damage and one for long range, lower damage.

Every other BS gets a short range and a long range turret, whereas ravens / scorps get two long range solutions depending on what tank you feel like fitting.

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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....Caldari weapon systems dont even have the requirement of training the smaller spec skill to lvl4 ....

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People always bring up this factor to slag off Raven pilots. Thing is theres more missile support skills than there are gunnery support skills and it also takes about a week max to train small and medium guns to IV, not exactly ages.

Makes little difference in the grand scheme of things tbh.

I agree with the rest of your post.

Originally by: LUKEC

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Originally by: Shin Ra

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I swear people won't be happy until torps can only hit bs.

---

It's something like:
others can't put any tank to speak off or enough EW and use long range guns.

Railthron or Artypest will die miserable death when astarte is "landed" on top of him to tackle, torp raven... byby in 5-6 volleys... Ok, thron might have a little chance if it uses 5x t2 berserkers and 2 racial jammers ... great long range setup, eh?

---

I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: welsh wizard

---

Well snod this is another endlessly argued point.

I'd say that you only ever become truly good in a Raven once you have a hell of a lot of skillpoints in Engineering, Missiles, Caldari BS V and atleast tech II medium/light drone capability (vital to a torp pilot becuase fitting heavy nos isn't really possible).

---

I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Well snod this is another endlessly argued point.

I'd say that you only ever become truly good in a Raven once you have a hell of a lot of skillpoints in Engineering, Missiles, Caldari BS V and atleast tech II medium/light drone capability (vital to a torp pilot becuase fitting heavy nos isn't really possible).

---

As you said, endlessly argued. Every battleship needs a ****load of SP to be effective - mega and geddon need t2 guns + drones and armor mods, pest needs the same + shield skills depending on the way you fly it. Caldari weapon systems dont even have the requirement of training the smaller spec skill to lvl4

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I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: Malthros Zenobia

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Train the bare minimum skills to use t2 seige launchers, and nothing else. Then lemme know. I'll fight you my raven vs yours, and we'll see how good you are with your 14second rof.

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Originally by: Zanarkand

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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How do you propose Caldari fight battleships at range if torpedos can't fly further than 100km?

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Er, cruise missiles

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make cruise missles have a base speed 50km/s and we would be fine

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Originally by: Shin Ra

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I swear people won't be happy until torps can only hit bs.

---

It's something like:
others can't put any tank to speak off or enough EW and use long range guns.

Railthron or Artypest will die miserable death when astarte is "landed" on top of him to tackle, torp raven... byby in 5-6 volleys... Ok, thron might have a little chance if it uses 5x t2 berserkers and 2 racial jammers ... great long range setup, eh?

But don't get this as whining, i was flying that evil raven :)
It might not be really ballanced, but after more than a year of constant whoruming and whining, i decided to join rather than fight EVE gods and bought caldari char.
Oh and with < 25mil sp i have nothing relevant to train on it... so much about missile tree that requires too much training.

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Originally by: Shin Ra

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I swear people won't be happy until torps can only hit bs.

---

It's something like:
others can't put any tank to speak off or enough EW and use long range guns.

Railthron or Artypest will die miserable death when astarte is "landed" on top of him to tackle, torp raven... byby in 5-6 volleys... Ok, thron might have a little chance if it uses 5x t2 berserkers and 2 racial jammers ... great long range setup, eh?

But don't get this as whining, i was flying that evil raven :)
It might not be really ballanced, but after more than a year of constant whoruming and whining, i decided to join rather than fight EVE gods and bought caldari char.
Oh and with < 25mil sp i have nothing relevant to train on it... so much about missile tree that requires too much training.

---

---

Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Originally by: Shin Ra

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I swear people won't be happy until torps can only hit bs.

---

It's something like:
others can't put any tank to speak off or enough EW and use long range guns.

Railthron or Artypest will die miserable death when astarte is "landed" on top of him to tackle, torp raven... byby in 5-6 volleys... Ok, thron might have a little chance if it uses 5x t2 berserkers and 2 racial jammers ... great long range setup, eh?

But don't get this as whining, i was flying that evil raven :)
It might not be really ballanced, but after more than a year of constant whoruming and whining, i decided to join rather than fight EVE gods and bought caldari char.
Oh and with < 25mil sp i have nothing relevant to train on it... so much about missile tree that requires too much training.

---

---

LUKEC <3 <3 <3 Exactly what Lukec said, I bought a new account about 6 months ago and have trained it for nothing but raven skills, and even at the 6 mil SP mark, I have ZERO complaints with it. I love it 10 times better than my megathron, its freaking AMAZING. So while all you raven whiners who say you arnt overpowered because you have NEVER FLOWN ANYTHING ELSE, try to fly a blasterthron only to engage a raven pilot who is most likely going to mop the floor with you, or try going out to pvp with a sniper setup only to find that SAME raven pilot has javelin torps loaded and will *****you even more than in your blasterthron... (oh but I can warp out, because thats what i want to do every time i fight a raven, be forced to warp out) thats bullcrap and you all are completely ignorant.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Originally by: Shin Ra

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I swear people won't be happy until torps can only hit bs.

---

It's something like:
others can't put any tank to speak off or enough EW and use long range guns.

Railthron or Artypest will die miserable death when astarte is "landed" on top of him to tackle, torp raven... byby in 5-6 volleys... Ok, thron might have a little chance if it uses 5x t2 berserkers and 2 racial jammers ... great long range setup, eh?

But don't get this as whining, i was flying that evil raven :)
It might not be really ballanced, but after more than a year of constant whoruming and whining, i decided to join rather than fight EVE gods and bought caldari char.
Oh and with < 25mil sp i have nothing relevant to train on it... so much about missile tree that requires too much training.

---

---

LUKEC <3 <3 <3 Exactly what Lukec said, I bought a new account about 6 months ago and have trained it for nothing but raven skills, and even at the 6 mil SP mark, I have ZERO complaints with it. I love it 10 times better than my megathron, its freaking AMAZING. So while all you raven whiners who say you arnt overpowered because you have NEVER FLOWN ANYTHING ELSE, try to fly a blasterthron only to engage a raven pilot who is most likely going to mop the floor with you, or try going out to pvp with a sniper setup only to find that SAME raven pilot has javelin torps loaded and will *****you even more than in your blasterthron... (oh but I can warp out, because thats what i want to do every time i fight a raven, be forced to warp out) thats bullcrap and you all are completely ignorant.

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I use mega for solo and fleets. Raven for small gangs. Just because Gallente doesn't have all of the FOTMs doesn't mean that Caldari needs a nerf.

FFS, don't complain that the anti-ravenwhine-whiners never fly anything else than Raven.

Please, explain to me, how does your blaster mega get owned so baaad by torp ravens? Poor skills?

IT IS IGNORANT TO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT RAVEN NEEDS TO ALTER IT SETUP TO ENGAGE AT 10km and at 200km (2sb = 2 wasted med slots)

While the difference isn't as big as the one between railmega, the difference is there. Raven isn't an iwinzbuttonz

So you have to warp out 1v1 rail mega vs t2 torp raven? Wow, great, raven actually can do something, weee!!!!! BUT in bigger gangs(10+ sniper BS for example) the delayed damage makes RAVEN 100% WORTHLESS TO FLY.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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IT IS IGNORANT TO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT RAVEN NEEDS TO ALTER IT SETUP TO ENGAGE AT 10km and at 200km (2sb = 2 wasted med slots)

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Originally by: dec0

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To the original poster - you are an idiot. You have not listened to a thing anybody has said to you. Ive been reading through your posts and some of the things you have said, e.g. "long range fleet battles are only a very very few of the fleet battles" umm about 90% of fleet battles are over 150km idiot. Javelin torps are good, yes, and they have a right to be. But they arent better than any other type of ammo, you obviously have never used them. They arent unbalanced, neither are ravens. Shield tanking isnt better than armour tanking, its about the same, plus we cant web, scramble, target paint etc without screwing our tanks.

Another thing you said (cant remember exactly, need to use quotes but cba :D) is that javelin torp ravens do more dps than megas? wtf!! Raven with a decent tank and 6 t2 torps leaves no room for nos, or webby, so you in your blaster mega just needs to mwd within 10k and its ******, nothing beats a blaster mega and close range nub. Also, sniping with javelins? You ever heard of anything called alpha strike? The pilot can go on holiday for a week and when he gets back he will still have time to warp his ship away before the first volley even hits. Seriously man you dont have a CLUE what you are talking about so stfu and go back to corp hopping hmm k?

Had to get that off my chest, feel better now.

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Lmao, poster obviously didn't read the thread as suggested since he missed the post where OP admitted to flying a Jav Raven for the last couple months

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Originally by: dec0

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Edited by: dec0 on 16/09/2006 22:53:21
No, he also talked about it beating close range megas too, and who cares if overall a raven will hit a bit harder at 150km, it will never kill anything cos it can warp off, and dont say "get an inty to..." cos you could do the same with a mega. Raven is awful in fleet battles, thats why we are getting the Rohk, and yes I obviously did miss the bit where he flies a javelin raven, I got sick and tired off him posting crap and stopped reading on the 3rd page or something Oh and you will need at least 2 sensor boosters to hit at the range which screws a tank. And again, why is a tank so important at 100km+ when you can just warp off.

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Originally by: Recluse XXX

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Give Torps 1400-1500 dps and 35km range and everything should be fine...

//Rec

____________

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Originally by: xtreamer

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and you talking about cruisers being popped becouse of sig radius please all others have good drone bays that take care of evrything

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Man you really don't understand, do you?
Nobody is whining and posting !!1111eleventy crap like you do. We are just concerned about people that don't have will/isk/rl money/cba/whatever to have more accounts and overall balance. I must say i really enjoy flying my caldari alt. Nobody is saying that raven is iwin button (read up a little)... but focused raven groups can outperform any other group without changing setup.

Let's see few arguments of yours:
2x sb 4tl... as you noticed yourself, torps aren't that great at THAT long ranges. So 1 sb is enough (150km lock range, if you don't get that, train gang skills & electronic skills). It will be enough, you will lock anything bigger than frig fast enough and since transversal speed doesn't matter, 1s more or less is irrelevant.

Now consider situation where you must jump your 10 railmega into 10 ravens... or if those ravens actually operate on hostile territory and someone is trying to camp them... you know what happens when you drop 10 ravens on top of those railthrons ? Actually i'd happily drop 10 ravens on 20 long range bs fleet. Miss, miss, barely scratch for shameful damage... There is only 1 little difference... competent raven pilots will survive 200km slugfest vs throns while throns miserably die vs ravens at closerange due to h4x called scrambler.

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Originally by: Frools

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Originally by: Recluse XXX

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Give Torps 1400-1500 dps and 35km range and everything should be fine...

//Rec

____________

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so you want a raven to do MORE dps than a mega cand do and at 7x the range?

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Originally by: Barbicane

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Raven with Javelin torps is an unstoppable killing machine.

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Man you really don't understand, do you?
Nobody is whining and posting !!1111eleventy crap like you do. We are just concerned about people that don't have will/isk/rl money/cba/whatever to have more accounts and overall balance. I must say i really enjoy flying my caldari alt. Nobody is saying that raven is iwin button (read up a little)... but focused raven groups can outperform any other group without changing setup.

Let's see few arguments of yours:
2x sb 4tl... as you noticed yourself, torps aren't that great at THAT long ranges. So 1 sb is enough (150km lock range, if you don't get that, train gang skills & electronic skills). It will be enough, you will lock anything bigger than frig fast enough and since transversal speed doesn't matter, 1s more or less is irrelevant.

Now consider situation where you must jump your 10 railmega into 10 ravens... or if those ravens actually operate on hostile territory and someone is trying to camp them... you know what happens when you drop 10 ravens on top of those railthrons ? Actually i'd happily drop 10 ravens on 20 long range bs fleet. Miss, miss, barely scratch for shameful damage... There is only 1 little difference... competent raven pilots will survive 200km slugfest vs throns while throns miserably die vs ravens at closerange due to h4x called scrambler.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Originally by: Barbicane

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Raven with Javelin torps is an unstoppable killing machine.

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Mega with t2 ammo isn't an unstoppable killing machine?

If you remove javelins, please remove spike, void, void, barrage, tremor, conflag, scroth, gleam etcetc

the whole t2 ammo thing is overpowered, please remove them all...

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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...
Im getting out of this thread now, its useless. Missile users bringing up the advantages of turrets (sniping), and turret users bringing up the advantages of torpedoes (super high damage at close to medium range). Its not like people want to find game balance, thats for sure.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Man you really don't understand, do you?
Nobody is whining and posting !!1111eleventy crap like you do. We are just concerned about people that don't have will/isk/rl money/cba/whatever to have more accounts and overall balance. I must say i really enjoy flying my caldari alt. Nobody is saying that raven is iwin button (read up a little)... but focused raven groups can outperform any other group without changing setup.

Let's see few arguments of yours:
2x sb 4tl... as you noticed yourself, torps aren't that great at THAT long ranges. So 1 sb is enough (150km lock range, if you don't get that, train gang skills & electronic skills). It will be enough, you will lock anything bigger than frig fast enough and since transversal speed doesn't matter, 1s more or less is irrelevant.

Now consider situation where you must jump your 10 railmega into 10 ravens... or if those ravens actually operate on hostile territory and someone is trying to camp them... you know what happens when you drop 10 ravens on top of those railthrons ? Actually i'd happily drop 10 ravens on 20 long range bs fleet. Miss, miss, barely scratch for shameful damage... There is only 1 little difference... competent raven pilots will survive 200km slugfest vs throns while throns miserably die vs ravens at closerange due to h4x called scrambler.

---

EXPLAIN TO ME HOW CAN t2 TORP RAVENS OUTPERFOM t2 SNIPER BS GANGS, please... do.

t2 snipers = 200km

You warped on a 10 railmega gang with 10 torp ravens? WOW, did they drop the can for you, just so you could warp there? Oh, yeah, they stayed unaligned too just so you could lock them.... they most likely ignored local, scanner too.

ravens have an amazing 40m/s speed with javelins, wooo.

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Originally by: dec0

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i beat close range megas all the time with my new raven and very low skills, and well my mega has to warp (or die) a stupid amount of the time against torp ravens, you obviously do not fly a blasterthron against ravens, its ok i forgive your ignorance. And if by low skills you mean maxed out megathron flying skills, sure. WTS clue.

p.s. my point has been that FLEET BATTLES rarely happen, not just long range ones, so get over yourself.

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: dec0

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Edited by: dec0 on 16/09/2006 22:53:21
No, he also talked about it beating close range megas too, and who cares if overall a raven will hit a bit harder at 150km, it will never kill anything cos it can warp off, and dont say "get an inty to..." cos you could do the same with a mega. Raven is awful in fleet battles, thats why we are getting the Rohk, and yes I obviously did miss the bit where he flies a javelin raven, I got sick and tired off him posting crap and stopped reading on the 3rd page or something Oh and you will need at least 2 sensor boosters to hit at the range which screws a tank. And again, why is a tank so important at 100km+ when you can just warp off.

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i beat close range megas all the time with my new raven and very low skills, and well my mega has to warp (or die) a stupid amount of the time against torp ravens, you obviously do not fly a blasterthron against ravens, its ok i forgive your ignorance. And if by low skills you mean maxed out megathron flying skills, sure. WTS clue.

p.s. my point has been that FLEET BATTLES rarely happen, not just long range ones, so get over yourself.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Edited by: welsh wizard on 17/09/2006 10:02:48

Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: dec0

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Edited by: dec0 on 16/09/2006 22:53:21
No, he also talked about it beating close range megas too, and who cares if overall a raven will hit a bit harder at 150km, it will never kill anything cos it can warp off, and dont say "get an inty to..." cos you could do the same with a mega. Raven is awful in fleet battles, thats why we are getting the Rohk, and yes I obviously did miss the bit where he flies a javelin raven, I got sick and tired off him posting crap and stopped reading on the 3rd page or something Oh and you will need at least 2 sensor boosters to hit at the range which screws a tank. And again, why is a tank so important at 100km+ when you can just warp off.

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i beat close range megas all the time with my new raven and very low skills, and well my mega has to warp (or die) a stupid amount of the time against torp ravens, you obviously do not fly a blasterthron against ravens, its ok i forgive your ignorance. And if by low skills you mean maxed out megathron flying skills, sure. WTS clue.

p.s. my point has been that FLEET BATTLES rarely happen, not just long range ones, so get over yourself.

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If you can't beat a normally setup torp Raven if you both start at close range in your blasterthron you're doing something wrong.

Tech II neutrons (and a decent pilot) will down a standard raven setup in less than 30 seconds.

Starting at 10km the only way a Raven pilot is gonna get out alive is with ECM and luck or 3-4 kinetic and thermal hardeners.

Perhaps this has just been my experience against the blasterthron pilots I've faced.

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Edited by: Nybbas on 14/09/2006 17:17:13
so i was just looking at the stats of these, and unless I'm going crazy are they really...

1. the exact same flight speed as a cruise missile with a 5 second longer flight time?

2. the exact same explosion radius, and velocity as a cruise missile?

3. the exact same damage as a normal non t2 torpedo?

So basically the only penalty you incur from fitting these is... a minor speed penalty, which means basically nothing... correct? Your Torps fly farther than any cruise missile, and hit just as well as a cruise missile, except you get torpedo damage? I thought AT LEAST javelin torps would do less damage since they are the "long range" variant of their t2 type....

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Originally by: Tassi

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Edited by: Tassi on 17/09/2006 16:04:22
My 7 mill skillpoint caldari alt can kill Tassi in his geddon EASILY.

The only way I can beat my alt is to use ECM drones.

When my alt is able to use some sort of shield tank instead of ECM he will be able to beat Tassi always.

EDIT: My alt in his torp raven of course.

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Then your geddon must be crap. Don't get me wrong, but shield tanked ravens never were problems vs shortrange bs, especially geddons open them like tin cans. Problem are... the other ravens

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Originally by: Doxs Roxs

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Nybbas probably got owned by a raven that fired javelin torps from long range at him and now he is whining on the forums...

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Originally by: Tassi

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Then your geddon must be crap. Don't get me wrong, but shield tanked ravens never were problems vs shortrange bs, especially geddons open them like tin cans. Problem are... the other ravens

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Its a heavy tanked geddon

Without a tank you can't engage at stations/gates in low sec so I had to put on some tank and go dual heavy pulse

I wanna see how you kill a ECM raven in your geddon tho

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Ecm ravens are... the other ones :P
You can't with geddon alone since you probably can't scramble enough. Though drones alone should cause him some issues.

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: Doxs Roxs

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Nybbas probably got owned by a raven that fired javelin torps from long range at him and now he is whining on the forums...

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Do you know who Nybbas is? Nybbas does not die

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I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: Malthros Zenobia

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: Doxs Roxs

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Nybbas probably got owned by a raven that fired javelin torps from long range at him and now he is whining on the forums...

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Do you know who Nybbas is? Nybbas does not die

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Nybbas is some annoying necromancer guy in Tactics Ogre who you have to beat about half a dozen times before he finally dies, as a lich, on floor 99 of Hell Dungeon.

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Originally by: john2

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Edited by: john2 on 17/09/2006 19:51:47
well raven can put 4 wcs on and hit like a ton of brick and never miss, tell me a bs that can hit frigate close range??

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Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

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Originally by: john2

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Edited by: john2 on 17/09/2006 19:51:47
well raven can put 4 wcs on and hit like a ton of brick and never miss, tell me a bs that can hit frigate close range??

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Wow, so when you compare ships, you look at the amount of stabs it is able to fit compared to the damage output??... impressive

and yeah, hitting a frig for 0.1 in damage really doesn't matter... aslong as it NEVER MISS..

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: Malthros Zenobia

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: Doxs Roxs

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Nybbas probably got owned by a raven that fired javelin torps from long range at him and now he is whining on the forums...

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Do you know who Nybbas is? Nybbas does not die

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Nybbas is some annoying necromancer guy in Tactics Ogre who you have to beat about half a dozen times before he finally dies, as a lich, on floor 99 of Hell Dungeon.

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yeah i pretty much forgive you for everything you said for actually realizing where i got the name from : P

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I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: Jane Vladmir

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Minor speed bonus?
It nearly disables warping out, how's that for a penalty?

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: Jane Vladmir

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Minor speed bonus?
It nearly disables warping out, how's that for a penalty?

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what are you talking about, disabling warping out? the speed penalty, do you have ANY idea how warping mechanics work?

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I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy

Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath

Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: GC13

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Originally by: Nybbas

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The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?

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It's even worse than that. For turrets, +25% to optimal and +25% to falloff = +25% to range, period. For missiles, +50% to flight time and +50% to speed = +125% to range. OUCH.

I'd agree with dropping all missile range bonuses (the skills as well as, for instance, the Raven's velocity bonus) to 5%.

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yeah actually we just figured that 25% turret range thing out on irc after i thought even more about it : P its really pitiful, and tbh it makes no sense to me... torps which are the "Short range" equivelant of large missiles fire further than cruises... which is past max range... I just dont get it.

PEOPLE a Javelin Torp raven WILL either kill or force ANY other sniping ship to flee in an engagement thats at 100km +

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Quote:

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what are you talking about, disabling warping out? the speed penalty, do you have ANY idea how warping mechanics work?

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Quote:

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I do tech II fitted Ravens and tech II fitted Megas and for long range Megas for the win. Say you warp in ... 5 and 5. The 5 Megas kill 2 Ravens then first torp hits and they warp off... then they warp back in and finish the job... there...

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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If everyone stops and takes a deep breath.

When was the last time any of you honestly saw a torp being launched from 150km+ with any useful outcome? Once or twice in recent memory maybe? If you're getting boned by ravens firing from those distances then you really need to rethink the way you play.

Simple as that.

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Originally by: Crellion

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: GC13

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Originally by: Nybbas

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The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?

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It's even worse than that. For turrets, +25% to optimal and +25% to falloff = +25% to range, period. For missiles, +50% to flight time and +50% to speed = +125% to range. OUCH.

I'd agree with dropping all missile range bonuses (the skills as well as, for instance, the Raven's velocity bonus) to 5%.

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yeah actually we just figured that 25% turret range thing out on irc after i thought even more about it : P its really pitiful, and tbh it makes no sense to me... torps which are the "Short range" equivelant of large missiles fire further than cruises... which is past max range... I just dont get it.

PEOPLE a Javelin Torp raven WILL either kill or force ANY other sniping ship to flee in an engagement thats at 100km +

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Thank god you call your self nubacc... you cant snipe with Ravens son. I do tech II fitted Ravens and tech II fitted Megas and for long range Megas for the win. Say you warp in ... 5 and 5. The 5 Megas kill 2 Ravens then first torp hits and they warp off... then they warp back in and finish the job... there...

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Originally by: Wrayeth

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Frankly, I'm of the opninion that if you nerf javelin torps it will make the torp raven useless in PvP as anything but an ECM boat. It will be unable to kill well-tanked HACs, though AC tempests, blasterthrons, and even pulse 'geddons with webs don't have much problem.

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Originally by: Nybbas

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so you have been pvping for a couple months im guessing? so you mean to tell me that javelin torps wont kill a tech 2 battlecruise in a matter of a few volleys, or beat the crap out of any cruiser in a few seconds flat? Thanks for showing us how ignorant you are on this whole situation.

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Originally by: Raider Zero

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Originally by: Nybbas

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so you have been pvping for a couple months im guessing? so you mean to tell me that javelin torps wont kill a tech 2 battlecruise in a matter of a few volleys, or beat the crap out of any cruiser in a few seconds flat? Thanks for showing us how ignorant you are on this whole situation.

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OK, I had no idea that you intended to flame everybody who would dare try to be reasonable. Had I known, I would not have tried to contribute something useful. I would have opted for cheese to go with your wine. 'Posters' like yourself are the reason that the eve-o boards are a laughing stock like every other mmo's in-house forums.

That being said, yeah I suppose Javelin torps would frack a BC or Command Ship in a couple volleys. That still leaves the target time to get away-if you can survive one volley, but don't have time to warp, the opponent is AFK or otherwise not aware of what is happening.

Once again, you point out what is good about one particular ship/weapon system. You did nothing to develop a rational answer for the fact that all types of T2 ammo are quite powerful. Jav torps aren't a whole lot different in that way. Which was my point before you lost control of the argument and resorted to flaming as a child would.

From your tone, I'm guessing that you were flying a command ship and got in a fight with a T2 Raven and got your a$$ handed to you. Is that anywhere close?

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