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Nybbas A Place for Valen	Posted - 2006.09.17 21:03:00 - [181] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Doxs Roxs Nybbas probably got owned by a raven that fired javelin torps from long range at him and now he is whining on the forums... Do you know who Nybbas is? Nybbas does not die Nybbas is some annoying necromancer guy in Tactics Ogre who you have to beat about half a dozen times before he finally dies, as a lich, on floor 99 of Hell Dungeon. yeah i pretty much forgive you for everything you said for actually realizing where i got the name from : P
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 22:05:00 - [182] Originally by: john2 Edited by: john2 on 17/09/2006 19:51:47 well raven can put 4 wcs on and hit like a ton of brick and never miss, tell me a bs that can hit frigate close range?? Wow, so when you compare ships, you look at the amount of stabs it is able to fit compared to the damage output??... impressive and yeah, hitting a frig for 0.1 in damage really doesn't matter... aslong as it NEVER MISS..
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.17 23:22:00 - [183] Edited by: LUKEC on 17/09/2006 23:23:41 Edited by: LUKEC on 17/09/2006 23:23:10 Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Originally by: john2 Edited by: john2 on 17/09/2006 19:51:47 well raven can put 4 wcs on and hit like a ton of brick and never miss, tell me a bs that can hit frigate close range?? Wow, so when you compare ships, you look at the amount of stabs it is able to fit compared to the damage output??... impressive and yeah, hitting a frig for 0.1 in damage really doesn't matter... aslong as it NEVER MISS.. I don't have such problems. Mostly you hit them for something silly like 200 if you do it right. Though with 4 wcs you don't do that much damage. And anyway, this thread is getting away from topic. What about typhoon & torps? Uber coz it can fit 7 stabs and 4 sieges or something? --------------------- Looking for frentix? Mail me.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.18 00:36:00 - [184] Originally by: Nybbas Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Doxs Roxs Nybbas probably got owned by a raven that fired javelin torps from long range at him and now he is whining on the forums... Do you know who Nybbas is? Nybbas does not die Nybbas is some annoying necromancer guy in Tactics Ogre who you have to beat about half a dozen times before he finally dies, as a lich, on floor 99 of Hell Dungeon. yeah i pretty much forgive you for everything you said for actually realizing where i got the name from : P Even the stuff I was right about? Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath For 50, you can have my goat:P- Tirg
Wrayeth Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.18 01:06:00 - [185] Frankly, I'm of the opninion that if you nerf javelin torps it will make the torp raven useless in PvP as anything but an ECM boat. It will be unable to kill well-tanked HACs, though AC tempests, blasterthrons, and even pulse 'geddons with webs don't have much problem. It seems that a lot of people's objections to the raven are based around ECM, and the devs have already stated ECM is getting nerfed. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Jane Vladmir Gallente Warmongers	Posted - 2006.09.18 01:08:00 - [186] Minor speed bonus? It nearly disables warping out, how's that for a penalty?
Nybbas A Place for Valen	Posted - 2006.09.18 05:22:00 - [187] Originally by: Jane Vladmir Minor speed bonus? It nearly disables warping out, how's that for a penalty? what are you talking about, disabling warping out? the speed penalty, do you have ANY idea how warping mechanics work?
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.18 07:34:00 - [188] Originally by: Nybbas Originally by: Jane Vladmir Minor speed bonus? It nearly disables warping out, how's that for a penalty? what are you talking about, disabling warping out? the speed penalty, do you have ANY idea how warping mechanics work? Jane's probably thinking of how when webbed, your agility goes to hell. I haven't ever noticed it with Javelins, but I've always been sitting still when using them anyways. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath For 50, you can have my goat:P- Tirg
Crellion Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.09.18 09:11:00 - [189] Originally by: Nybbas Originally by: GC13 Originally by: Nybbas The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced? It's even worse than that. For turrets, +25% to optimal and +25% to falloff = +25% to range, period. For missiles, +50% to flight time and +50% to speed = +125% to range. OUCH. I'd agree with dropping all missile range bonuses (the skills as well as, for instance, the Raven's velocity bonus) to 5%. yeah actually we just figured that 25% turret range thing out on irc after i thought even more about it : P its really pitiful, and tbh it makes no sense to me... torps which are the "Short range" equivelant of large missiles fire further than cruises... which is past max range... I just dont get it. PEOPLE a Javelin Torp raven WILL either kill or force ANY other sniping ship to flee in an engagement thats at 100km + Thank god you call your self nubacc... you cant snipe with Ravens son. I do tech II fitted Ravens and tech II fitted Megas and for long range Megas for the win. Say you warp in ... 5 and 5. The 5 Megas kill 2 Ravens then first torp hits and they warp off... then they warp back in and finish the job... there...
Dawson Caldari British Space Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.18 09:40:00 - [190] Edited by: Dawson on 18/09/2006 09:42:54 Quote: what are you talking about, disabling warping out? the speed penalty, do you have ANY idea how warping mechanics work? Have you ever tired aligning in a raven going 40ms? the seconds it takes for you to unload so you can turn and align out fast enough before your toast makes a huge diffrence. Quote: I do tech II fitted Ravens and tech II fitted Megas and for long range Megas for the win. Say you warp in ... 5 and 5. The 5 Megas kill 2 Ravens then first torp hits and they warp off... then they warp back in and finish the job... there... And I think that pretty much says it all. Cant wait for the new Caldari Rail boat. Buts thats another story Ambassador & Admiral
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.18 10:18:00 - [191] We talking about ravens being overpowered or Javelin torps now? The stat on jav torps that matters is the explosion radius. The rest is just cosmetic. Yes, being able to lob a torp 250km is a giggle, but it's really not an uber I win button, like being able to snipe your enemy when they can't return fire.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:06:00 - [192] If everyone stops and takes a deep breath. When was the last time any of you honestly saw a torp being launched from 150km+ with any useful outcome? Once or twice in recent memory maybe? If you're getting boned by ravens firing from those distances then you really need to rethink the way you play. Simple as that.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:56:00 - [193] Originally by: welsh wizard If everyone stops and takes a deep breath. When was the last time any of you honestly saw a torp being launched from 150km+ with any useful outcome? Once or twice in recent memory maybe? If you're getting boned by ravens firing from those distances then you really need to rethink the way you play. Simple as that. Today. Wasn't exactly 150 but was 140+ for sure (i was waiting for something to come into lock range). Sure it warped of, but deep in armor. And best part, it is good to annoy people to they actually blob up so you can kill more --------------------- Looking for frentix? Mail me.
Nybbas A Place for Valen	Posted - 2006.09.18 15:49:00 - [194] Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Nybbas Originally by: GC13 Originally by: Nybbas The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced? It's even worse than that. For turrets, +25% to optimal and +25% to falloff = +25% to range, period. For missiles, +50% to flight time and +50% to speed = +125% to range. OUCH. I'd agree with dropping all missile range bonuses (the skills as well as, for instance, the Raven's velocity bonus) to 5%. yeah actually we just figured that 25% turret range thing out on irc after i thought even more about it : P its really pitiful, and tbh it makes no sense to me... torps which are the "Short range" equivelant of large missiles fire further than cruises... which is past max range... I just dont get it. PEOPLE a Javelin Torp raven WILL either kill or force ANY other sniping ship to flee in an engagement thats at 100km + Thank god you call your self nubacc... you cant snipe with Ravens son. I do tech II fitted Ravens and tech II fitted Megas and for long range Megas for the win. Say you warp in ... 5 and 5. The 5 Megas kill 2 Ravens then first torp hits and they warp off... then they warp back in and finish the job... there... Good to see you read the entire thread, or at least tried to get yourself familiar with the arguments made so far on the topic... /sarcasm.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.18 16:36:00 - [195] Originally by: Wrayeth Frankly, I'm of the opninion that if you nerf javelin torps it will make the torp raven useless in PvP as anything but an ECM boat. It will be unable to kill well-tanked HACs, though AC tempests, blasterthrons, and even pulse 'geddons with webs don't have much problem. Precision cruise would still be hax. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Raider Zero Minmatar Federation	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:38:00 - [196] Originally by: Nybbas so you have been pvping for a couple months im guessing? so you mean to tell me that javelin torps wont kill a tech 2 battlecruise in a matter of a few volleys, or beat the crap out of any cruiser in a few seconds flat? Thanks for showing us how ignorant you are on this whole situation. OK, I had no idea that you intended to flame everybody who would dare try to be reasonable. Had I known, I would not have tried to contribute something useful. I would have opted for cheese to go with your wine. 'Posters' like yourself are the reason that the eve-o boards are a laughing stock like every other mmo's in-house forums. That being said, yeah I suppose Javelin torps would frack a BC or Command Ship in a couple volleys. That still leaves the target time to get away-if you can survive one volley, but don't have time to warp, the opponent is AFK or otherwise not aware of what is happening. Once again, you point out what is good about one particular ship/weapon system. You did nothing to develop a rational answer for the fact that all types of T2 ammo are quite powerful. Jav torps aren't a whole lot different in that way. Which was my point before you lost control of the argument and resorted to flaming as a child would. From your tone, I'm guessing that you were flying a command ship and got in a fight with a T2 Raven and got your a$$ handed to you. Is that anywhere close?
Nybbas A Place for Valen	Posted - 2006.09.18 20:06:00 - [197] Originally by: Raider Zero Originally by: Nybbas so you have been pvping for a couple months im guessing? so you mean to tell me that javelin torps wont kill a tech 2 battlecruise in a matter of a few volleys, or beat the crap out of any cruiser in a few seconds flat? Thanks for showing us how ignorant you are on this whole situation. OK, I had no idea that you intended to flame everybody who would dare try to be reasonable. Had I known, I would not have tried to contribute something useful. I would have opted for cheese to go with your wine. 'Posters' like yourself are the reason that the eve-o boards are a laughing stock like every other mmo's in-house forums. That being said, yeah I suppose Javelin torps would frack a BC or Command Ship in a couple volleys. That still leaves the target time to get away-if you can survive one volley, but don't have time to warp, the opponent is AFK or otherwise not aware of what is happening. Once again, you point out what is good about one particular ship/weapon system. You did nothing to develop a rational answer for the fact that all types of T2 ammo are quite powerful. Jav torps aren't a whole lot different in that way. Which was my point before you lost control of the argument and resorted to flaming as a child would. From your tone, I'm guessing that you were flying a command ship and got in a fight with a T2 Raven and got your a$$ handed to you. Is that anywhere close? No, it is no where close, and if your definition of flaming, is me questioning someones gaming experience, I believe you have a problem. The reason "the eve-o boards are a laughing stock" (which I do not believe to be true, you obviously do not read the wow forums... ever. I complain about the moderation here, but then again to all the forum mods I would rather you do what you do here, than see these forums go the way of the WoW forums, holy crap.) IS due to the massive amount of people who decide to reply to a thread without even reading up to what arguments, and counterarguments have been posted. The last 4 pages is people just bringing up fleet battles/large group battles, even though its been stated over and over that those arn't a problem. Your next point, say you are in a command ship and a raven starts opening fire from 100km, (if i was, which i dont fly command ships, but good try assuming I do... its funny how if i make an assumption about play time, I'm flaming, but you can assume, and its A-OK.) You think to yourself, oh I'm sure I can tank at least a bit of this guys daamge, or I bet i can take out this hac before that raven out there does anything, then next thing you know your shields are gone in a volley, and given you arnt warp scrambled, the reaction tim ebefore realizing, oh crap im screwed, and then activating a warp (slowing speed, realigning, accelerating again) gives more than enough time for that raven to finish you off. Lets take a 425 railthron from long range using spike now, your damage output is tanked by a cerb no problem, let alone a battlecruiser. You arn't going to be forcing him to warp anywhere, he is going to have his way with whatever target he was going after, then just kindly warp out. That raven Also had the option of warping closer and scrambling the BC itself, and then owning it from upclose, a convenience not given to a 425 user, or any long range turret user. Just because I assume, and am not happy cheery when I debute points (which i tried to do at first until every next person starting posting that ravens suck in group long range combat) doesn't mean I'm flaming, it means you are insulted entirely too easily.
Raider Zero Minmatar Federation	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:41:00 - [198] Originally by: Nybbas No, it is no where close, and if your definition of flaming, is me questioning someones gaming experience, I believe you have a problem. The reason "the eve-o boards are a laughing stock" (which I do not believe to be true, you obviously do not read the wow forums... ever. I complain about the moderation here, but then again to all the forum mods I would rather you do what you do here, than see these forums go the way of the WoW forums, holy crap.) IS due to the massive amount of people who decide to reply to a thread without even reading up to what arguments, and counterarguments have been posted. The last 4 pages is people just bringing up fleet battles/large group battles, even though its been stated over and over that those arn't a problem. Your next point, say you are in a command ship and a raven starts opening fire from 100km, (if i was, which i dont fly command ships, but good try assuming I do... its funny how if i make an assumption about play time, I'm flaming, but you can assume, and its A-OK.) You think to yourself, oh I'm sure I can tank at least a bit of this guys daamge, or I bet i can take out this hac before that raven out there does anything, then next thing you know your shields are gone in a volley, and given you arnt warp scrambled, the reaction tim ebefore realizing, oh crap im screwed, and then activating a warp (slowing speed, realigning, accelerating again) gives more than enough time for that raven to finish you off. Lets take a 425 railthron from long range using spike now, your damage output is tanked by a cerb no problem, let alone a battlecruiser. You arn't going to be forcing him to warp anywhere, he is going to have his way with whatever target he was going after, then just kindly warp out. That raven Also had the option of warping closer and scrambling the BC itself, and then owning it from upclose, a convenience not given to a 425 user, or any long range turret user. Just because I assume, and am not happy cheery when I debute points (which i tried to do at first until every next person starting posting that ravens suck in group long range combat) doesn't mean I'm flaming, it means you are insulted entirely too easily. Your statement is that if you decide to try to tank T2 torps, and you fly a BC or Command, that you'll die? I think therein is the problem. There are lots of ways to die in Eve, and one of the best is underestimating opponents' damage. A raven with any style of torps basically cannot hit a frig or assault frig for significant damage. A 425 sniper can instapop that ship if it can track it, which most pack enough tracking mods to ensure that they have a good chance at it. My idea is not that flaming is wondering how much PvP experience I have. I was quite a bit more related to the comment that I have shown you how ignorant I am on the whole situation. Any good Command pilot would be able to tank the damage anyway imo. I can't be arsed to explain how and why, but since you know everything, you can figure it out. Yes, it's been tested.
Sammiel Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.19 14:00:00 - [199] Originally by: welsh wizard If everyone stops and takes a deep breath. When was the last time any of you honestly saw a torp being launched from 150km+ with any useful outcome? Once or twice in recent memory maybe? If you're getting boned by ravens firing from those distances then you really need to rethink the way you play. Simple as that. Whenever BE is out hunting? Granted I am sure Raven's aren't the bees knees for fleet battles, but who that certainly doesn't preclude them from being powerful. Interdictor bubble + BS without a MWD = dead BS with Raven ganking. Regardless of the time to travel for the torps. And I would imagine that the complaint with jav torps is that they are just as effective against BS targets as they are against cruiser. No other long range ammo has that characterstic, and most short range ammos won't without a web.
John Blackthorn Foundation	Posted - 2006.09.19 17:06:00 - [200] I was looking over the torp ammo last night actually and compairing normal, to precition to fury all I can say is normal torp's look better in all situations to me. Both t2 ammo's have shorter range, precition does less damage than normal torps, fury does less damage than normal torps when hiting anything but pos and capital ships. And the t2 torp penalties are just nuts. One gives you a decrease in cap recharge the other decress in speed. Now considering if it was just a one time penality it would be fine but it's not, its for each launcher that you load a torp into. So a raven with 6 t2 fury torps has a speed of like umm 50 m/s??? or for the presitions you get a recharge of basicly 0 you don't recharge untill you unload your torps. -John
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.19 17:51:00 - [201] Originally by: John Blackthorn Both t2 ammo's have shorter range, precition does less damage than normal torps, fury does less damage than normal torps when hiting anything but pos and capital ships. And the t2 torp penalties are just nuts. Fury is indeed "worse" than t1 torps when you're hitting anything other than POS and painted BS / dreads, but as for javelins I have a feeling you're looking at precision cruise, not javelin torps as this thread is about. Jav torps do the same damage with longer range and higher speed, decreased explosion radius and increased explosion velocity for a pretty meaningless penalty. Member of the Ex-KSC retard-spellers club.
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.09.19 19:03:00 - [202] Originally by: Sammiel Granted I am sure Raven's aren't the bees knees for fleet battles, but who that certainly doesn't preclude them from being powerful. Interdictor bubble + BS without a MWD = dead BS with Raven ganking. Regardless of the time to travel for the torps. So you are saying that a long range raven with a support ship is able to kill another bs? I can think of alot of different bs' being able to do that. And eventhough if a bs was cought within a bubble I'm pretty sure it would be able to slowboat it back to the gate and tank the javelin raven, or just make it out of the bubble and warp. Originally by: Sammiel And I would imagine that the complaint with jav torps is that they are just as effective against BS targets as they are against cruiser. No other long range ammo has that characterstic, and most short range ammos won't without a web. Well actually the javelins gets over 60% in damage reduction towards a cruiser with the explosion radius alone, so they are NOT "just as effective against BS targets as they are against cruiser". Your arguments won't hold.
Soyemia Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.19 19:09:00 - [203] Missiles are overpowered, live with it, CCP <3 caldari and dislikes amarr and minmatar Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Sammiel Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.19 19:11:00 - [204] 40% of BS damage is still enough to put a hurt on a cruiser, given they usually have less than 40% the hitpoints of a BS unless plated heavily. Plus signature radius can be increased by a reasonably hefty percentage by using a painter.
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.09.19 19:13:00 - [205] Originally by: Soyemia Missiles are overpowered, live with it, CCP <3 caldari and dislikes amarr and minmatar actually I think CCP <3 amarr the most, otherwise they would never have let that amazing whine thread live to the 77th page nerf amarr
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.09.19 19:22:00 - [206] Originally by: Sammiel 40% of BS damage is still enough to put a hurt on a cruiser, given they usually have less than 40% the hitpoints of a BS unless plated heavily. Plus signature radius can be increased by a reasonably hefty percentage by using a painter. Yup, 40% will still hurt, but it's not like a long range turret won't hit a cruiser. I don't know the exact reduction a large turret gets versus a cruiser, but it will also hurt. A painter is something a turret bs can use just as well as a missile bs. Paint and web a cruiser and any bs will fry it.
Sammiel Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.19 19:57:00 - [207] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Originally by: Sammiel 40% of BS damage is still enough to put a hurt on a cruiser, given they usually have less than 40% the hitpoints of a BS unless plated heavily. Plus signature radius can be increased by a reasonably hefty percentage by using a painter. Yup, 40% will still hurt, but it's not like a long range turret won't hit a cruiser. I don't know the exact reduction a large turret gets versus a cruiser, but it will also hurt. A painter is something a turret bs can use just as well as a missile bs. Paint and web a cruiser and any bs will fry it. Yeah, a T2 tempest has a roughly 25% chance to hit a cruiser travelling at 500 m/s at 200k. Phear the T2 ammo. So its doing 25% of its damage potential at that range. A jav torp raven would be doing 41%. Do you see the difference? Oh yeah, and that pest would also be devoting slots to tracking modules. And would be nigh on worthless inside of 100km vs the same cruiser. Which is the problem. A turret BS can effectively hit a cruiser IFF it can be webbed. A torp raven can effectively hit a cruiser, period amen. Its a BS weapon that is just as effective vs a cruiser. Which is the same reason precision cruise got nerfed. They were too good in too many situations. They are as good as normal torps or better in every category save they gimp your speed. Which is often times irrelelvant unless one is solo. Which means that they are a no brainer to use.
Nybbas A Place for Valen	Posted - 2006.09.20 05:28:00 - [208] This will be my last post... RDM could not have put it much better when he said that javelin torps are so grossly overpowered that anyone who argues for them is... an unintelligent individual (he was a bit more harsh) But to the point brought up that a sniper can still hit frigates from 200km using their sniping ammo and instapop frigs just by fitting some tracking mods, while missile users can never do that, Any moving frig from 200km even YOU MISS with 3 tracking mods fitted, the 100% ammo nerfs your tracking too much, sorry but you obviously have never tested this, I have, multiple times on multiple ships. Any hits you will get will be crap and probably against an assault frigate with already good resists, against your nerfed damage. While a javelin torp raven IS unable to hit frigates (which a webbed frigate trying to mwd is going to be utterly owned by javelin torps) It only does NOT have to fit ANY tracking mods to get its uber range, its going to hit for massive damage against cruisers, and battlecruisers + ... but this has been regurgitated over and over again through these 7 pages of useless crap... I will let this thread die out now.
Shiraz Merlot Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.20 10:26:00 - [209] I know this has sort of turned into a Raven fitting thread, but i'll add this: if you're caldari bs specialised, and expecting your gang to engage at 150km, you should be in a scorp with t2 racials. that is all
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.09.20 11:08:00 - [210] Well I maintain that if you nerf the Javelin torpedoes range then you nerf the Ravens ability to fight anything bigger than a cruiser at range. As far as I can tell, half the point of adding Javelins was to provide a Raven with torps some capacity to fight battleships at distance. A corp mate raised another fine point, if the explosion velocity and radius on a javelin was decreased the Raven would be a sitting duck for assault cruisers. Most hacs can happily tank precision cruise since the nerf and thats precisely what the damn things are for. Now we're using javelins instead, they don't do the job quite aswell but they let a raven defend itself against a tough fast moving cruiser. If the range was reduced on the Javelin then it would be just about bearable. If they explosion velocity/radius was altered then the Raven would be nerfed back into obscurity. We've seen what mass moaning about Caldari has done to the race in the past, fortunately CCP realised the error of their ways and boosted missiles again. It's as balanced as its ever been but apparently some people wont be happy until the Raven is only capable of taking on smaller ships than itself (a Caldari trait it seems).

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