| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
   |
Posted - 2006.09.14 08:12:00 -
[1]
so i was just looking at the stats of these, and unless I'm going crazy are they really...
1. the exact same flight speed as a cruise missile with a 5 second longer flight time?
2. the exact same explosion radius, and velocity as a cruise missile?
3. the exact same damage as a normal non t2 torpedo?
So basically the only penalty you incur from fitting these is... a minor speed penalty, which means basically nothing... correct? Your Torps fly farther than any cruise missile, and hit just as well as a cruise missile, except you get torpedo damage? I thought AT LEAST javelin torps would do less damage since they are the "long range" variant of their t2 type....
|
Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 08:13:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Nybbas
So basically the only penalty you incur from fitting these is... a minor speed penalty, which means basically nothing... correct?
Isnt it like 10% speed reduction per torpedo?
-----
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 08:16:00 -
[3]
20%... because speed matters when you have to watch your transversal... when using missiles? no... so whats the point of speed when you are in a missile using ship... to stay in range, oh wait no that doesnt matter cuz you are good past 180km, so OH I KNOW!!! speed matters to get to 0km from that blasterthron to exploit weaknesses in tracking that you never have to worry about!!! *sigh*
|
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 08:16:00 -
[4]
Welcome to the world of T2 ammo. They are not affected by the Guided Missile Precision skill though and cruise are, so another minor drawback.
And despite being quite powerful, I don't think Javs are nearly as overpowderedÖ as some of the T2 turret ammo.
On the notion of same damage as T1, the precision standard missiles actually do MORE damage than their T1 counterpart. Gotta love how consistent CCP is about inconsistencies 
---------
ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
|
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 08:18:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Nybbas on 14/09/2006 08:20:26
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Welcome to the world of T2 ammo. They are not affected by the Guided Missile Precision skill though and cruise are, so another minor drawback.
And despite being quite powerful, I don't think Javs are nearly as overpowderedÖ as some of the T2 turret ammo.
On the notion of same damage as T1, the precision standard missiles actually do MORE damage than their T1 counterpart. Gotta love how consistent CCP is about inconsistencies
ahhh so i knew there was something that must make cruise missiles go farther than these things... (because you know 180km on a jav torp isnt enough anyways) Which tech 2 ammos? there is no tech 2 long range ammo that allows you to do your max damage (antimatter, emp, multifreq) at over 180km...
*edit* ahhh nm precision makes them hit better... but still...
|
Testy Mctest
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 08:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
I don't think Javs are nearly as overpowderedÖ as some of the T2 turret ammo.
We must be playing different games.
Which T2 turret ammo comes close to being as overpowered in it's class as Jav Torps? Please enlighten me.
Scrapheap Challenge Forums - All the cool kids are doing it!
|
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 08:26:00 -
[7]
What i dont understand is, the point of tech 2 ammo wasnt to make all the tech 1 variants obsolete, but they are meant to fulfill a niche... yet javelin torpedos are COMPLETELY superior to normal torpedos in EVERY aspect except they nerf your speed, which in a raven is a COMPLETE non issue, something you dont even look twice at.
|
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 08:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Nybbas
What i dont understand is, the point of tech 2 ammo wasnt to make all the tech 1 variants obsolete, but they are meant to fulfill a niche... yet javelin torpedos are COMPLETELY superior to normal torpedos in EVERY aspect except they nerf your speed, which in a raven is a COMPLETE non issue, something you dont even look twice at.
Let's not forget that thar' price tag. And When They Remove Instas (tm) speed will become very relevant again.
IMO though, Javelins are nice, yes, but only for the lowered signature. The range is pretty meh, since I've only ever hit NPCs with cruise missiles at >80km anyway.
T2 ammo in general is a bit broken IMO. Especially stuff like spike, the ultra long range turret ammo, and the ultra high power short range gank ammo.
|
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 08:35:00 -
[9]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Nybbas
What i dont understand is, the point of tech 2 ammo wasnt to make all the tech 1 variants obsolete, but they are meant to fulfill a niche... yet javelin torpedos are COMPLETELY superior to normal torpedos in EVERY aspect except they nerf your speed, which in a raven is a COMPLETE non issue, something you dont even look twice at.
Let's not forget that thar' price tag. And When They Remove Instas (tm) speed will become very relevant again.
IMO though, Javelins are nice, yes, but only for the lowered signature. The range is pretty meh, since I've only ever hit NPCs with cruise missiles at >80km anyway.
T2 ammo in general is a bit broken IMO. Especially stuff like spike, the ultra long range turret ammo, and the ultra high power short range gank ammo.
because the 10 seconds to switch ammo out is going to make a huge difference when traveling.... also the damage spike ammo does, a raven will tank you all day long if you try to shoot them from 200km out with spike while they lob jav torps at you and force you to warp in a matter of a few volleys and 25 second travel time to get to you. spike overpowered? hardly. (and no spike wont hit anything smaller than a cruiser thats not sitting still, and it wont 1 volley even a tech 1 cruiser, so anything really has plenty of time to warp off. Spike is fairly balanced, and javelin nerfs the crap out of your shields) I would be happy if jav torps cut shields by 20% per, or cap like the rage ones do 
|
Roham Tahkim
Team Americas
Black Reign Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 08:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Nybbas
so i was just looking at the stats of these, and unless I'm going crazy are they really...
1. the exact same flight speed as a cruise missile with a 5 second longer flight time?
2. the exact same explosion radius, and velocity as a cruise missile?
3. the exact same damage as a normal non t2 torpedo?
So basically the only penalty you incur from fitting these is... a minor speed penalty, which means basically nothing... correct? Your Torps fly farther than any cruise missile, and hit just as well as a cruise missile, except you get torpedo damage? I thought AT LEAST javelin torps would do less damage since they are the "long range" variant of their t2 type....
Dont be a pansy, just come out and say it. OMG CALDARI OVERPOWERED#$!# NERF CALDARI#@$)%& just say it, you will feel better.
|
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 09:01:00 -
[11]
you obviously arnt on irc right now 
|
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 09:10:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Nybbas
also the damage spike ammo does, a raven will tank you all day long if you try to shoot them from 200km out with spike while they lob jav torps at you and force you to warp in a matter of a few volleys and 25 second travel time to get to you. spike overpowered? hardly. (and no spike wont hit anything smaller than a cruiser thats not sitting still, and it wont 1 volley even a tech 1 cruiser, so anything really has plenty of time to warp off. Spike is fairly balanced, and javelin nerfs the crap out of your shields) I would be happy if jav torps cut shields by 20% per, or cap like the rage ones do
Warp out being the operative point. The guy with spike is dealing damage, and the guy with Javelins is not. Yes, you get into issues of tank breaking, but you always do at snipe ranges. These go away if you start talking about smaller ships/more snipers.
Javelin messes up your shields, which is hardly much of a penalty on an armour tanking ship. The Rokh is going to really feel that pain though.
My biggest problem with stuff like spike is that a T1 fitted ship just can't do anything about it. At least with javelins, you can return fire with cruise missiles (albeit at a damage penalty, but you always get that with T2 vs T1)
|
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 09:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Nybbas
also the damage spike ammo does, a raven will tank you all day long if you try to shoot them from 200km out with spike while they lob jav torps at you and force you to warp in a matter of a few volleys and 25 second travel time to get to you. spike overpowered? hardly. (and no spike wont hit anything smaller than a cruiser thats not sitting still, and it wont 1 volley even a tech 1 cruiser, so anything really has plenty of time to warp off. Spike is fairly balanced, and javelin nerfs the crap out of your shields) I would be happy if jav torps cut shields by 20% per, or cap like the rage ones do
Warp out being the operative point. The guy with spike is dealing damage, and the guy with Javelins is not. Yes, you get into issues of tank breaking, but you always do at snipe ranges. These go away if you start talking about smaller ships/more snipers.
Javelin messes up your shields, which is hardly much of a penalty on an armour tanking ship. The Rokh is going to really feel that pain though.
My biggest problem with stuff like spike is that a T1 fitted ship just can't do anything about it. At least with javelins, you can return fire with cruise missiles (albeit at a damage penalty, but you always get that with T2 vs T1)
it has a lot more effect than a speed reducing penalty (in regards to javelin) your shields just went from a few volley buffer to gone in 1, so you can't say its not a big factor. What can a Tech 1 fitted ship do against javelin Torpedos??? they go FARTHER than spike ammo, and hit MUCH harder. Your last statement really doesn't make much sense, and your first statement only really makes a difference in large engagements, which are the ONLY things ravens don't COMPLETELY excell at, LARGE engagements that take place over 80km. (which i am willing to bet is much less than 5% of all total engagements in the entire game.)
|
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 16:58:00 -
[14]
The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?
|
Magunus
The Forsakened Few
The ARR0W Project
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:02:00 -
[15]
Torps don't get a benefit from some of the secondary missile skills, don't forget. Not that I'm saying they're all peaches and cream...
---
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' |
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:05:00 -
[16]
yeah they dont benefit from guided missile precision, but they still hit cruisers for amazing damage anyways....
|
Hellspawn01
Amarr
The Phantom Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:09:00 -
[17]
Dont forget the RoF increase with the skill which gives you more damage over time. Its not much, I know. In the end, you could use T2 launchers and T1 ammo and you have not many drawbacks.
Ship lovers click here |
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:10:00 -
[18]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 14/09/2006 17:10:53
You get about 40m/s out of a raven with 6 Jav loaded.
edit: A big hit, constant reloading/unloading required to move about.
|
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:11:00 -
[19]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 14/09/2006 17:10:53
You get about 40m/s out of a raven with 6 Jav loaded.
edit: A big hit, constant reloading/unloading required to move about.
yeah so its really hard to match transversal, or get into your 250km range while only going 40 m/s... oh wait 
|
xlop
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:18:00 -
[20]
tbh they should of got the nerf at the same time as percision cruise, they are clearly wayyyy overpwoered
if they got the speed of cruise, hence the distance and also less time to impact they should have HIGHER than torp sig
javlin torps:
dmg: same as t1
Speed: same as cruise
Sig: 500 [not 300]
if that is not acceptable, then reduce their flight time so that its range is no more than 30km on a raven with max skill!!
|
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: xlop
tbh they should of got the nerf at the same time as percision cruise, they are clearly wayyyy overpwoered
if they got the speed of cruise, hence the distance and also less time to impact they should have HIGHER than torp sig
javlin torps:
dmg: same as t1
Speed: same as cruise
Sig: 500 [not 300]
if that is not acceptable, then reduce their flight time so that its range is no more than 30km on a raven with max skill!!
you forgot to add that they have a 5 second longer flight time than cruise missiles, meaning they have longer range (even though the max rangeon them is 280km and you cant lock past 250km but still) WTB ammo that lets me short range blasters hit at 250km.
|
Guurzak
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:21:00 -
[22]
One small point that hasn't been mentioned: You can't load FoFs in a siege launcher.
|
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:22:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Guurzak
One small point that hasn't been mentioned: You can't load FoFs in a siege launcher.
your RIGHT!!! so like, you dont have any ECM protection like turret users do!! oh wait : / ravens also have one of the highest natural sensor strengths.
|
Christopher Dalran
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:30:00 -
[24]
Just hope you dont run into a Remote sensor damp intesinve group of players, your crappy speed will kill you.
|
TheEndofTheWorld
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:30:00 -
[25]
Edited by: TheEndofTheWorld on 14/09/2006 17:32:14
Gallente needs nerf too. Moros, Thantos, Ishkur, dominix, ishtar, megathorn need a very very big nerf, too... don't you agree?
at 200km spike L mega >>> t2 torp raven
at 10km t2 blastermega >>> t2 raven
Try fitting siege 2 launchers. to shoot at 200km you need 2 x sensor booster(hello tank the hell out of "shieldtank"). 40m/s means no mobility AT ALL.
t1 torps are really bad(400m base sig radius is unacceptable), without javelins(and EW) there wouldn't be much of a reason to use Raven at all...
|
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:32:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Nybbas on 14/09/2006 17:33:18
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Gallente needs nerf too. Moros, Thantos, Ishkur, dominix, ishtar, megathorn need a very very big nerf, too... don't you agree?
at 200km spike L mega >>> t2 torp raven
at 10km t2 blastermega >>> t2 raven
Try fitting siege 2 launchers. to shoot at 200km you need 2 x sensor booster(hello tank the hell out of "shieldtank"). 40m/s means no mobility AT ALL.
t1 torps are really bad(400m base sig radius is unacceptable), without javelins there wouldn't be much of a reason to use Raven at all...
uhmmm actually a javelin raven will own the crap out of a 200km spike using megathron.... that raven will tank him all day due to his pitiful damage... and up close a raven with the same layout (ok maybe no sensor boosters but more tank) will beat a blasterthron every time, if the raven is worth anything.
and please oh please kind sir explain to me why mobility is needed for a raven? when all you really need to do is align?
Originally by: Christopher Dalran
Just hope you dont run into a Remote sensor damp intesinve group of players, your crappy speed will kill you.
whether you are flying at 20 or 120 m/s someone remote sensor damping you from 200km away is going to force you to warp out or sit there twiddling your thumbs.
|
GC13
Caldari
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:36:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Nybbas
The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?
It's even worse than that. For turrets, +25% to optimal and +25% to falloff = +25% to range, period. For missiles, +50% to flight time and +50% to speed = +125% to range. OUCH.
I'd agree with dropping all missile range bonuses (the skills as well as, for instance, the Raven's velocity bonus) to 5%.
---
New to Eve? Interested in manufacturing stuff, or doing research on blueprints? Check out my fully-updated Science and Industry guide. |
Nybbas
A Place for Valen
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:37:00 -
[28]
Originally by: GC13
Originally by: Nybbas
The largest problem with missiles extreme ranges is the fact that they have two seperate skills that increase range by 10% per level, so with max skills thats a 100% increase in range.... turret users get a 25% increase to optimal and a 25% increase to falloff, which doesnt even equal a 50% total increase to total range... How is this balanced?
It's even worse than that. For turrets, +25% to optimal and +25% to falloff = +25% to range, period. For missiles, +50% to flight time and +50% to speed = +125% to range. OUCH.
I'd agree with dropping all missile range bonuses (the skills as well as, for instance, the Raven's velocity bonus) to 5%.
yeah actually we just figured that 25% turret range thing out on irc after i thought even more about it : P its really pitiful, and tbh it makes no sense to me... torps which are the "Short range" equivelant of large missiles fire further than cruises... which is past max range... I just dont get it.
PEOPLE a Javelin Torp raven WILL either kill or force ANY other sniping ship to flee in an engagement thats at 100km +
|
Tonya Nastee
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:40:00 -
[29]
If it were blaster ammo, it would be hitting 50km out, with AM damage and 50% tracking boost. But that's all ok since it's all balanced by the fact you can't move into optimal... ohh wait 
|
TheEndofTheWorld
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 17:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nybbas
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Gallente needs nerf too. Moros, Thantos, Ishkur, dominix, ishtar, megathorn need a very very big nerf, too... don't you agree?
at 200km spike L mega >>> t2 torp raven
at 10km t2 blastermega >>> t2 raven
Try fitting siege 2 launchers. to shoot at 200km you need 2 x sensor booster(hello tank the hell out of "shieldtank"). 40m/s means no mobility AT ALL.
t1 torps are really bad(400m base sig radius is unacceptable), without javelins there wouldn't be much of a reason to use Raven at all...
uhmmm actually a javelin raven will own the crap out of a 200km spike using megathron.... that raven will tank him all day due to his pitiful damage... and up close a raven with the same layout (ok maybe no sensor boosters but more tank) will beat a blasterthron every time, if the raven is worth anything.
and please oh please kind sir explain to me why mobility is needed for a raven? when all you really need to do is align?
Oh, the torps are flying... flying... euh nevermind the mega warped off, taking no damage.... wee how amazing. The 200km torp thing is overrated...
Close range mega outdpses raven veeery bad. The tank is similar, but raven has no tackiling gear (at best 3 web drones + 20km scram) leaving the megathorn an escape door if needed. Raven does like what... 600dps? Void mega does like 800+ without drones.
moving 4-5 times faster is always good(bad/no instas, whatever)
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |