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Noriko Sakai
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Posted - 2003.10.22 21:03:00 -
[1]
I'm sure this have been discussed before, but the recent changes make by CCP on the mineral market is so wreck that it's time to bring it up again.
Economy in EVE is foundamentally flawed.
In the "Real Space Empre". Income would be a two-way traffic. Raw material would come in from the fringe and finished goods/advanced product will go back out to support the smaller outposts and mining colonies.
In EVE, Since everthing is based on mineral and manufacturing can happen on any station with a factory. There is no 2 way traffic. With the Megacorps and Alliances controlling the fringe sectors, there is no way for any corporation operating in the core sector to compete. This flys against every notion of a "real space empire" where the core sector is rich and the fringe sector are tough to make a living on.
There is a few ways to correct this problem. The more "realistic" way below will involve major changes to the way things are produced in the EVE universe.
1: All products will not only require mineral but advance componets like superconductors, nano technolongy, special alloys and such that can only be manufactured in Highly advanced Factories close to the core world.
2: All factories and products will now have manufacturing levels with those in the core being able to produce more advanced components and those on the fringe only able to produce some basic items.
3: Recoverable mineral from destroyed ships. There should be a decent amount of basic mineral left as salvagable. it's hard to believe that while you can recover totally intact equipment off a destroyed ship. None of the mineral that went into building it is recoverable.
The above changes will produce a true market enconomy where products travel both ways and most raw mineral will still have to come from the fringe. You can at least recover some mineral from bounty hunting and pirate encounter in the core sector. But at this stage of the game, it may be impossible to implement some of these changes.
However, There is another method that can be implemented with ease that will achieve some of the above.
1: Remove all factory and Labs functions from stations in the fringe sector but make sure some of the basic items (low lvl ammo, basic ship system and low lvl weapons) are always available in stations with market access, In fact, remove all factory from system with under a certain sec rating. This will force the all major manufacturing back into the core sector and provide a healthy export trade back towards the fringe and it will also take care of the mini empire problem.
Thats all I have at the moment, Free free to add your 2 cents.
Regards
Noriko Sakai
DC1
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Marianna
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Posted - 2003.10.22 21:11:00 -
[2]
Awesome suggestion!
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babyblue
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Posted - 2003.10.22 21:36:00 -
[3]
I agree - excellent idea.
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Plasmatique
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Posted - 2003.10.22 21:37:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
1: Remove all factory and Labs functions from stations in the fringe sector but make sure some of the basic items (low lvl ammo, basic ship system and low lvl weapons) are always available in stations with market access, In fact, remove all factory from system with under a certain sec rating. This will force the all major manufacturing back into the core sector and provide a healthy export trade back towards the fringe and it will also take care of the mini empire problem.
Most things which are manufactured to be sold ARE made in empire space.
Nobody really mines anything less than omber outside of empire space. If we do it's for personal/corporate use.
Corporations mine for iso, nocx, zyd and mega in 0.0 systems, then haul it into empire space where their factorys are. They make stuff and sell it there, or very close to there.
If you've ever been to a station out in 0.0 you'd know a few things. 1: Everything on the market is very expensive. 2: There isn't alot of things available to buy sometimes.
To think somebody wants to waste 2 hours of their playtime moving a ship they manufactured out in a 0.0 system into empire space to sell is ridiculous.
You have mis-identified the problem, thus, your solution is mis-guided as well.
The problem is everybody has blueprints for everything they need. I personally have blueprints for 6 ships, all ammo and all missiles. Why should I buy anything when I either loot what I want/need or manufacture it myself?
It's too late now, but everything built should have components.
These components are what would require minerals.
Here's my example:
I am a ship builder. Let's say frigates.
To build frigates, I need the frigate construction skill. This skill is like rank 20. And not available on the market. Character creation, agent mission or loot drop only. This skill can give a 2% ship speed increase or 2% agility or 2% structure hit points per level. I chose to give ship speed when I began training the skill.
So I have lvl 1 frigate construction. I rent a factory. I have a blueprint to make a certain frigate, "Plasmobiles".
To make a frigate, I need 5 core components. Powercore, CPU, Sensor array, Shield emitter and thrust module.
These components are themselves either bought on the market with 0 bonus or I can buy them from another player.
Let's look at the Sensor Array. These are manufactured by PlayerX. PlayerX has Sensor Array Construction skill at level 2.
This skill is also acquired from same places as frigate construction.
It also has a 2% bonus per level. The bonus it can give is targeting speed or targeting range.
PlayerX constructs his sensor arrays using minerals which were mined by other players.
So I end up building a ship which might target faster and have a higher top speed than a frigate constructed by a different player.
This is how I thought it should have been. But if you'd heard anything of Tech 2 stuff, most of the things you complain about are in with tech 2 manufacturing....so I've heard.
.....................................
Proud Owner of a Navy Issue Raven
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Noriko Sakai
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Posted - 2003.10.22 22:21:00 -
[5]
While I didn't list BP as a major cause of imbalance in the economy. It is implied as thats the main reason to introduce multi lvl manufacturing or removing factories. As you said in your message. The proliferation of BP and the lack of manufactering skill set really limits what can be done at this time so I offer up some suggestion that would work around these problems.
One radical idea would be ot set expiration date on all current BPs and rework the whole BP availability structure but I don't think you will find many player who will agree to that.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.10.22 22:26:00 -
[6]
Quote:
Quote:
1: Remove all factory and Labs functions from stations in the fringe sector but make sure some of the basic items (low lvl ammo, basic ship system and low lvl weapons) are always available in stations with market access, In fact, remove all factory from system with under a certain sec rating. This will force the all major manufacturing back into the core sector and provide a healthy export trade back towards the fringe and it will also take care of the mini empire problem.
Most things which are manufactured to be sold ARE made in empire space.
Nobody really mines anything less than omber outside of empire space. If we do it's for personal/corporate use.
Corporations mine for iso, nocx, zyd and mega in 0.0 systems, then haul it into empire space where their factorys are. They make stuff and sell it there, or very close to there.
If you've ever been to a station out in 0.0 you'd know a few things. 1: Everything on the market is very expensive. 2: There isn't alot of things available to buy sometimes.
To think somebody wants to waste 2 hours of their playtime moving a ship they manufactured out in a 0.0 system into empire space to sell is ridiculous.
You have mis-identified the problem, thus, your solution is mis-guided as well.
The problem is everybody has blueprints for everything they need. I personally have blueprints for 6 ships, all ammo and all missiles. Why should I buy anything when I either loot what I want/need or manufacture it myself?
It's too late now, but everything built should have components.
These components are what would require minerals.
Here's my example:
I am a ship builder. Let's say frigates.
To build frigates, I need the frigate construction skill. This skill is like rank 20. And not available on the market. Character creation, agent mission or loot drop only. This skill can give a 2% ship speed increase or 2% agility or 2% structure hit points per level. I chose to give ship speed when I began training the skill.
So I have lvl 1 frigate construction. I rent a factory. I have a blueprint to make a certain frigate, "Plasmobiles".
To make a frigate, I need 5 core components. Powercore, CPU, Sensor array, Shield emitter and thrust module.
These components are themselves either bought on the market with 0 bonus or I can buy them from another player.
Let's look at the Sensor Array. These are manufactured by PlayerX. PlayerX has Sensor Array Construction skill at level 2.
This skill is also acquired from same places as frigate construction.
It also has a 2% bonus per level. The bonus it can give is targeting speed or targeting range.
PlayerX constructs his sensor arrays using minerals which were mined by other players.
So I end up building a ship which might target faster and have a higher top speed than a frigate constructed by a different player.
This is how I thought it should have been. But if you'd heard anything of Tech 2 stuff, most of the things you complain about are in with tech 2 manufacturing....so I've heard.
I like those ideas a LOT.
I'd thought of something along the same lines but it involved specialized BP researching and reverse engineering existing items to give several outcomes (better speed, agility, sensors etc etc).
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.10.22 22:30:00 -
[7]
It's not too late, just give a months notice then make all unlimited copies limited and make copies that much harder to produce and labslots that much more expensive.
You know you've got your moneys worth out of that copy, or at least will get within the months notice so don't even try to fight it, petition for the recall!
Convert Stations
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Noriko Sakai
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Posted - 2003.10.22 22:47:00 -
[8]
Introducing a new manfacturing skill set with restricted availability. Both in terms of how hard it will be to find/get, and a limit on how many a character can learn. ie, you can learn one specialized skill when you reach 2M skillpts and then 1 more at 3M and so on. This will automatically take care ot the BP proliferation problem but at least the owner retains whatever PE/ME research efforts that they have put into it.
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dethnel
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Posted - 2003.10.22 23:53:00 -
[9]
all of these are great ideas, i esp like the one about allowing people to manufacture ships with some variation of abilities based on how you manufactured them.
Quote:
It's not too late, just give a months notice then make all unlimited copies limited and make copies that much harder to produce and labslots that much more expensive.
although true-- ccp could just change whatever they like whenever they like (highway jumpgates holy crap!) making radical restrictive changes to blueprint manufacturing would devastate small and medium corps, while not affecting large rich ones.
NOTE that the large established corps who already own every bp in the game and have enough money to buy them all again, would not be affected at all by any of these restrictions. more expensive factory slots? more limited bp use? bah. small corps would be shut down, medium corps would be drastically reduced in number... then guess what you'd find out? all the crappy prices for things stay exactly the same as they are now. the big corps already control your mineral prices, and flood the market with goods to destroy their competition in all regions. they would be the least affected by manufacturing restrictions, in fact not affected.
building different quality items for sale by being a clever producer, now that would help the market a little by offering the buyer a more realistic choice, "buy the lowquality brand for less, or pay more for the high quality one that might last longer" etc. much more like a real life purchasing decision.
i'm part of a small manufacturing corp with a lot of bp's but we refuse to sell items on the market at cost or for low profit. we are regularly driven out of markets by others selling items close to cost. the numbers of items at near-cost we see are often so enormous, only a large scale corp could support such a production run.
although i don't think it is a popular opinion, i don't believe the singleplayer/small/medium corps with bp's are entirely ruining markets, they don't have big enough manufacturing capabilities. it is the large corps, the Walmarts in this game who can mass produce enormous runs of goods backed up by their own
super efficient mining or mineral purchasing plans.
still that is legal competition, they are so efficient that they deserve to win in the marketplace. my hats off to them, we will find other ways to generate profit.
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Indigo Seqi
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Posted - 2003.10.23 00:46:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Indigo Seqi on 23/10/2003 00:48:48
Not being able to buy a construction skill is kinda silly. It means an engineer can't go out to a school and learn how to build stuff.
The rest of the stuff seems pretty ok to me though.
btw: I also think there should be something like spaceframe or hull construction in there.
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Venona Birch
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Posted - 2003.10.23 07:36:00 -
[11]
I must say that this is an excellent idea. A good way to go, for more fun in the EVE world. 
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Daphne Moon
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Posted - 2003.10.23 10:01:00 -
[12]
Quote:
I must say that this is an excellent idea. A good way to go, for more fun in the EVE world.
Agreed - it'd be cool to have people paying top dollar for what is in fact a cheap, shoddily-built death-trap 
Just a little idea I got from having owned a Ford 
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Hey ho, let's go! |
Luther Pendragon
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Posted - 2003.10.23 11:06:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 23/10/2003 11:18:33
Quote:
This flys against every notion of a "real space empire" where the core sector is rich and the fringe sector are tough to make a living on.
I have no idea what you based that notion on, but that is seriously flawed. The frontier is where the riches are made, but it is also where the risk is greatest. The core systems offer a steady, meager and safe income, but the market is saturated, the raw materials depleted.
In frontier america the streets were paved with gold. Many immigrants had it very difficult, but they were economically stuck in their home countries and it was only in america where they had a chance to make a fortune and move in social and economic status.
Yes, the core sector is rich, but also stagnant and saturated, if you personally want to make riches, go where others dont go.
Where are all the major industries moving to today? Theyre moving from 1st world countries to 3rd world countries. That is where the production resides. Then their shipped back to the wealthier and larger market at the core home market.
And CCP understands economics very well. Though I am also disappointed in the implementation of it, but removing features here, and putting them there in order to force a particular economic outcome is not something I'd like to see. It should play itself out, economics will then work how its supposed to work.
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
Noriko Sakai
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Posted - 2003.10.23 17:29:00 -
[14]
Were you wrong and were you wrong! Take a look at where all the "old money" are in America and you will it that it's all in the east coast . The Oil/rail/steel baron of old all have their bases in the east coast. The Frontier riches is a myth. For everyone that made it rich on the frontier, thousands just barely get's by and thousands died in the attempt.
Industries is moving to the 3rd world to exploit cheap labour. Who do you think is going to pay $100 for a pair of Nikes in the 3rd world. Their main revenue and customer base is back home. And except for the government official and some factory owners, nobody is going to make it rich in those countries.
Do take Economy 101 before you open your mouth again.
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Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.10.23 17:33:00 -
[15]
Come again?
We're now comparing Eve to America?
RL comparisons=not good.
  
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
Noriko Sakai
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Posted - 2003.10.23 17:38:00 -
[16]
Luther was comparing the Eve Frontier to the frontier of the old west, not me!
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Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.10.23 17:41:00 -
[17]
*ahem*
It's especially not good when you consider that not everyone would understand you. (Along with the whole "this is a game" thing)
Would you understand what I meant if I compared Eve to some tiny country in Asia that no-one ever heard of?
Not quite the same thing with America, but you get my drift  .
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
Luther Pendragon
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Posted - 2003.10.23 18:20:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 23/10/2003 18:38:17
I understand the confusion, but I wasnt refering to americas frontier. I meant the whole of america as a frontier...as in the old worlds frontier.
I have no idea where you have read economics, but the cheap labour arguement is by far an over simplification. And does it really matter? Just why do you think the labour is cheap?
I see my musings of market saturation and stagnation have gone aver your head. I see that you have difficulty grasping why developed economies are lucky to grow a few percentage points while under developed ones grow at double digit rates. This isnt a discussion about labour policies, its not a discussion of class discrepencies, its not even a discussion of whose richest. This is about growth and money making potential. The potential exists in un developed places because it is easy to grow exponentially when youre starting from nothing. Growth is much more difficult to in an already developed economy.
Am I right to understand that economics 101 is a basic level of economics?
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
Belzavior
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Posted - 2003.10.23 18:38:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Belzavior on 23/10/2003 18:38:59
A similar post
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Noriko Sakai
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Posted - 2003.10.23 18:48:00 -
[20]
That was a good read. As I said, I sure all these have been discussed before but just want to bring it back and see if more ideas surfaces.
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Ducat DesFlynne
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Posted - 2003.10.23 19:34:00 -
[21]
I like the idea of spherical regression. Alas, it doesn't apply very well when that race has warp drives and jump gate technology. =)
If I remember the theory correctly, Spherical Regression happens when travel through space is limited to the speed of light.
The further away from the core of civilization that a race moves in it's colonization efforts, the longer it takes them to get there.
Because of the vastness of space, this is done using either sleeper ships, or generation ships.
What happens, though, is when the colony ship arrives at it's destination, many years have passed, and technology at the home world has advanced beyond what is available to the resulting colony.
The same applies to colonies that need to be supplied by the home world. Advanced technology shipments, by the time they reach a colony, are no longer as advanced once it arrives.
The further away the colony, the less and less technologically advanced it becomes, in comparison to the home world.
Or something along those lines. I can't quite remember all the salient points.
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Noriko Sakai
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Posted - 2003.10.23 21:17:00 -
[22]
>>>>I have no idea where you have read economics, but the cheap labour arguement is by far an over simplification. And does it really matter? Just why do you think the labour is cheap?<<<<
Because we uses it, We do manufacturing in the 3rd world and believe me. other the government official's who's hand we have to grease and our local manufacturing parnter (factory owner) no one is getting rich, they may be able to have a steady income, slightly better healthcare and the bigger corporation may build a school here and there for PR purpose but that's about it. Also, those official and local parnter, although rich by local standards. Still makes less than me.
>>>>I see my musings of market saturation and stagnation have gone aver your head. I see that you have difficulty grasping why developed economies are lucky to grow a few percentage points while under developed ones grow at double digit rates. This isnt a discussion about labour policies, its not a discussion of class discrepencies, its not even a discussion of whose richest. This is about growth and money making potential. The potential exists in un developed places because it is easy to grow exponentially when youre starting from nothing. Growth is much more difficult to in an already developed economy.<<<<<
Double digit growth does not mean anything if you start so far at the bottom of the barrel. Doubling your income from $10 a month to $20 a month may make you seem rich in your country but you're still poor by world standard so exponential growth means nothing. YOu are still the poor 3rd world.
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Luther Pendragon
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Posted - 2003.10.23 21:34:00 -
[23]
No, the third world is still poor. They are still poor. That is inconsequential to my personal wealth.
Compare investing 100 bucks in a developed country growing at 3% a year. Or invest 100 bucks in a developing country averaging 15% a year. Thats all its about.
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
Plasmatique
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Posted - 2003.10.23 22:02:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Edited by: Indigo Seqi on 23/10/2003 00:48:48
Not being able to buy a construction skill is kinda silly. It means an engineer can't go out to a school and learn how to build stuff.
The rest of the stuff seems pretty ok to me though.
btw: I also think there should be something like spaceframe or hull construction in there.
Not so silly monsieur Seqi. Perhaps silly if implemented into the game at it's current state.
Remember, there's the yet-implemented mnemonics skill, which supposedly allows the copying of skill packs.
There's could be the ability to harvest skills off corpses. Could you imagine the carnage if you could pod somebody who had...let's say in this example, drones interfacing lvl 5 and had the option to extract all 5 levels from it, with a chance of failure? Maybe you'd get all 5, maybe you'd get less and maybe you'd get nothing. Or you could choose to extract the basic skill (level 0) with a far less chance of failure.
The lack of easily bought skills makes them more valuable, therefore, the items a researcher/industry character with those skills creates are more valuable.
The skills I proposed would be in addition to the already in place industry skills. Sure you can make anything with industry level 1, but it would just be plain-jane zero bonus items.
My ideas form from the situation we are in now where researchers are of little use and there is very little specialization in industry.
Look at the high demand for items which perhaps grant a 10-20% bonus over the standard market.
Look at all the people who play everquest or whatever MMORPG game that is where crafter make straw hats or whatever they are? I read about it in some magazine, sorry if I'm incorrect.
Please show me somebody who has a character with only all industry and science skills who's not an alt? Because there's very little point to it. The only two really useful skills are production efficiency and refine efficiency.
.....................................
Proud Owner of a Navy Issue Raven
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Igwilve
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Posted - 2003.10.23 22:10:00 -
[25]
Quote:
It's too late now, but everything built should have components.
These components are what would require minerals.
It's not too late. There's always Tech III.
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Noriko Sakai
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Posted - 2003.10.23 23:01:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Noriko Sakai on 23/10/2003 23:13:47
Edited by: Noriko Sakai on 23/10/2003 23:11:59
>>>>It's not too late. There's always Tech III.
It is. The megacorp is already richer than god and will only get richer in the meantime. The gap between the megacrop (not that it shouldn't be one but not to this margin ) will grow so big that it will be impossible to close.
Removing factory from all the fringe area will force them either to make the following choices:
1: Deal with a middle man willing to haul goods both way for a fair profit.
2: Divert a fair amount of their man power to establishing a supply chain and providing escort both ways thus reducing their income.
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Noriko Sakai
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Posted - 2003.10.23 23:09:00 -
[27]
>>>>No, the third world is still poor. They are still poor. That is inconsequential to my personal wealth.
Compare investing 100 bucks in a developed country growing at 3% a year. Or invest 100 bucks in a developing country averaging 15% a year. Thats all its about.<<<<
But it's still the big corp form the 1st world country that makes all the money. (which roughly equals to the devoloped systems in the core making a hefty profit from those poor mining colonies out on the fringe) which is unfortunately not the case in EVE.
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Luther Pendragon
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Posted - 2003.10.23 23:25:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 23/10/2003 23:28:19
Yes it is. Where the corp is from isnt the point. The riches are being made by going outside, then returning to the market to sell. Thats the intention of Eves economy.
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
Lysithea
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Posted - 2003.10.24 00:07:00 -
[29]
Yes, it all sounds great. Eve will never get there. Next...?
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Noriko Sakai
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Posted - 2003.10.24 00:21:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 23/10/2003 23:28:19
Yes it is. Where the corp is from isnt the point. The riches are being made by going outside, then returning to the market to sell. Thats the intention of Eves economy.
That's why i say it's a one way economy, there is no exportable goods going back out from the core sectors. They serve no function in the game, you might as well take it out.
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dethnel
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Posted - 2003.10.24 00:43:00 -
[31]
at least i think the goods do flow a little in the 'outward' direction in the form of battleships/indis/miner2's which go to mine in 0.0 space and then get destroyed by pirates,npc's,warring corps-- THEN they need replacement from supplies in the the core.
the finished goods that go back out are in the form of replacement ships. true, it would be better if there was something more than this- i believe that player built stations out in 0.0 will create a large demand for supplies to be sent out from the core so the sooner those appear the better.
also imho mega corps already have suply lines extablished for getting minerals, or they just buy them off the market from middlemen. so removing stations from the fringe shouldn't have any effect on them. it would greatly effect the middlemen tho.
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Noriko Sakai
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Posted - 2003.10.24 00:48:00 -
[32]
the problem is that the Megacorp out inthe fringe doesn't need a supply chain, all they need is factory slot close by and some BPs and they can rebuild resupply and be an mini empire in itself.
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Luther Pendragon
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Posted - 2003.10.24 05:50:00 -
[33]
Why do you say that? They come back to empire space to sell.
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
Fred0
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Posted - 2003.10.24 07:37:00 -
[34]
I gotta agree with luther. Stupidest thing would be to throw out the need to go into unregulated space to make more bucks in a more dangerous environment.
Quit the RL analogies because they don't apply just think about what kind of game you want this to be.
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Fred0
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Posted - 2003.10.24 07:38:00 -
[35]
Quote:
the problem is that the Megacorp out inthe fringe doesn't need a supply chain, all they need is factory slot close by and some BPs and they can rebuild resupply and be an mini empire in itself.
And tell me. Isn't that the coolest thing and something that makes this game worth playing?
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Deneba Zaavi
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Posted - 2003.10.24 09:07:00 -
[36]
Hi.
The whole "components" system, built by players with sufficient skills, you are suggesting is basically how Earth and Beyond building system worked. In fact it was one of the few good things in the game.
Reverse engineering was already present in this game, and it was tied to your building skills. YOu could also destry a modules reverse engineering it if your skills were too low.
In fact there was very skilled players who were manufacturing high quality items, via high skills and good quality basic items. These player were very sought after and they were making gobbles of cash.
Still, you were able to buy "150% quality items" instead of 200% ones at a good price, and these were far superior to the normal 100% quality ones available from NPC.
Applying this system, or part of it, to the EVE building/marjet opening other areas of gameplay.
Good ideas
Deneba Zaavi
"The world is perfect as it is: a complete mess" - Joseph Campbell |
Lake
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Posted - 2003.10.24 09:09:00 -
[37]
You keep suggesting methods for driving more business back into the core systems, empire space. Has it occurred to you that perhaps CCP does not want that to happen? I seem to recall from all relevant documentation of EVE (from the early pre-alpha FAQs to all dev chats and CSMs) that the 'real money' is to be made on the fringes, outside of the protection of empire space where the risk is the greatest.
Your remaining complaint seems to be that there is no way for you personally to take advantage of the profits available in the fringe systems. I believe you're quite simply wrong on that count. You could join one of many alliances, or if that doesn't suit you, go to the JK-FIX region which is protected by the CFS which allows completely unfettered trade by all non-hostile corps.
In summary: While I don't believe the economics of EVE are perfect, having my own gripes and suggestions for improvement, I think your particular complaints are not in keeping with the intended design of EVE.
~Lake
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Jake Solnich
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Posted - 2003.10.24 09:30:00 -
[38]
No need to make this issue complicated by discussing economics 101 in a full blown discussion.
The problem here is that the current game mechanics for the Eve economy are flawed! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Eve economy is broken, but it sure is close to it.
I don't know what the exact answer is but a good start would be by fixing the asteroid balance bug that has been plaguing the Eve universe for months now. This alone would make a big difference in the Eve economy
I would rather die a free man than live as a slave. |
Anacrit Mc'Sinister
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Posted - 2007.09.12 20:07:00 -
[39]
ok, to answer some of the earlier things - the comparison to the 3rd world (and i mean the poor countries and not the once with unfavorable governments) is bad - they are poor becouse they have no natural resourses. So thats not really a good comparison... early colonisation of gold rich south america makes more sense.
and as far as the economy goes - the problem is that all high end resourses are available throughout 0.0 and low end tritanium is awalable eveywhere.
*Take low end products out of anywhere with security below 0.5. those empire miners will increes their income tremendosly , while not becoming rich easily, or in a particularly interesting way. large alliances spending their money in the empire.
* the high end materials are a bit trickier. make some regions exlusive in some resources ( like "in real space empire") other regions in others,
*separate those resources well, so that you can not control all of them at once.
*make all of them vital for the alliance function, for example you ll need a mixture of 4- 5 materials to power up capital ships.
* make them important for certain empire produce too so that money flows back to the alliances.
= they will have to trade in empire to exchange the materials that they have into those they dont.
that is my solution to eve!
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DubanFP
Caldari
Four Rings
D-L
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Posted - 2007.09.12 20:09:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister
ok, to answer some of the earlier things - the comparison to the 3rd world (and i mean the poor countries and not the once with unfavorable governments) is bad - they are poor becouse they have no natural resourses. So thats not really a good comparison... early colonisation of gold rich south america makes more sense.
and as far as the economy goes - the problem is that all high end resourses are available throughout 0.0 and low end tritanium is awalable eveywhere.
*Take low end products out of anywhere with security below 0.5. those empire miners will increes their income tremendosly , while not becoming rich easily, or in a particularly interesting way. large alliances spending their money in the empire.
* the high end materials are a bit trickier. make some regions exlusive in some resources ( like "in real space empire") other regions in others,
*separate those resources well, so that you can not control all of them at once.
*make all of them vital for the alliance function, for example you ll need a mixture of 4- 5 materials to power up capital ships.
* make them important for certain empire produce too so that money flows back to the alliances.
= they will have to trade in empire to exchange the materials that they have into those they dont.
that is my solution to eve!
You just necroed a thread that is over 4 years old...
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Desolacer> Who the heck gives YOU the right to ruin it for others buy blowing them up.
Zaqar> CCP |
Thanos Draicon
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Posted - 2007.09.12 20:15:00 -
[41]
Necro bad. 
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Kwint Sommer
Incoherent Inc
Otaku Invasion
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Posted - 2007.09.12 20:21:00 -
[42]
Sounds good except Alliances should still be able to produce the super factories on the fringes, just at insane costs in minerals, ISK (we need more sinks) and time to construct. They should be so costly -and accordingly valuable- that they will be the focus of 0.0 wars.
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Lanu
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2007.09.12 20:42:00 -
[43]
Necro = bad M'kay
__________________
I'm not obsessing. I'm just curious. |
Anacrit Mc'Sinister
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Posted - 2007.09.24 13:42:00 -
[44]
ah well, it old so thats ok, eve economy is perfectly fine now, no problem ther at all
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Stakhanov
Katana's Edge
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Posted - 2007.09.24 13:51:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Stakhanov on 24/09/2007 13:51:10
Funny necro , I had an irrepressible urge to call the OP a noob before I saw the date.
Originally by: F'nog
One does not simply log into Jita.
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Sleepkevert
Paradox v2.0
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.24 14:00:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Noriko Sakai
1: Remove all factory and Labs functions from stations in the fringe sector but make sure some of the basic items (low lvl ammo, basic ship system and low lvl weapons) are always available in stations with market access, In fact, remove all factory from system with under a certain sec rating. This will force the all major manufacturing back into the core sector and provide a healthy export trade back towards the fringe and it will also take care of the mini empire problem.
Wait wut? Make Jita even larger?
I know it sounds good, great even, but real life != internet spaceships and vice versa. Doing this is forcing a lot of people to move back to (already crouded) high sec systems. And make the lag even worse in major trade hubs... Ever been to Jita in the weekend? It's bad enough as it is...
Sign my sig |
Valrandir
Gallente
Slacker Industries
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.09.24 14:11:00 -
[47]
FU***NG TROLL
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This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware
- Oveur
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.09.24 22:17:00 -
[48]
Edited by: cal nereus on 24/09/2007 22:17:36
Necro... dammit. 
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Join BH-DL |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2007.09.24 22:25:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Stakhanov
Edited by: Stakhanov on 24/09/2007 13:51:10
Funny necro , I had an irrepressible urge to call the OP a noob before I saw the date.
Same here. 
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Dietric Kalarn
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Posted - 2007.09.24 22:44:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Dietric Kalarn on 24/09/2007 22:45:48
Originally by: Noriko Sakai
stuff
Originally by: Marianna
Awesome suggestion!
Originally by: babyblue
I agree - excellent idea.
same person, painfully obvious
just so you all know... alts ruled to forums 4 years ago too
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.09.24 22:57:00 -
[51]
The reason the markets suck in 0.0 is because of the gank everything on sight culture, and I'm not referring to "piracy" either. If the alliances allowed neutral tradesman through instead of just killing everything the state of the markets would improve because undoubtedly some plucky entrepreneurs would take the chance of moving goods out there in view of the profits that can be made and then their only concern is getting past the pirates.
EVE is a sandbox and the game is what we make it just dont complain that it stinks when you treat it like a cat litter tray.
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Jevnikar
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Posted - 2007.09.25 11:36:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Noriko Sakai
1: Remove all factory and Labs functions from stations in the fringe sector but make sure some of the basic items (low lvl ammo, basic ship system and low lvl weapons) are always available in stations with market access, In fact, remove all factory from system with under a certain sec rating. This will force the all major manufacturing back into the core sector and provide a healthy export trade back towards the fringe and it will also take care of the mini empire problem.
So you actualy like Jita... prhaps you should open map and see where mayority hangs out and then make a proposal. Anothere thing m8, dunno where ya live but how would you feal if you`r nearest park got replaced by a nice nuclear factory so you had enough power to run all the industry in 1 place ? that`d be awsome in your eyes eh!!! Having entire car made from scratch in two square kilometers.
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heheheh
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.09.25 12:42:00 -
[53]
Quote:
You have mis-identified the problem, thus, your solution is mis-guided as well.
/sign
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Jaikar Isillia
Blue Labs
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.09.25 13:10:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Stakhanov
Edited by: Stakhanov on 24/09/2007 13:51:10
Funny necro , I had an irrepressible urge to call the OP a noob before I saw the date.
Same here.
lol /raises hand
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Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.09.25 13:52:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Noriko Sakai
Economy in EVE is foundamentally flawed.
In the "Real Space Empre". Income would be a two-way traffic. Raw material would come in from the fringe and finished goods/advanced product will go back out to support the smaller outposts and mining colonies.
This essentially is like this at the moment.
Raw materials, such as Ice products, moon minerals, reaction materials, advanced materials, high end minerals, high end exploration materials etc etc etc. are coming "from the fringes to empire" where it is more profitable to gather low end materials, that are gathered in mass volume, minimal risk....
Originally by: Noriko Sakai
In EVE, Since everthing is based on mineral and manufacturing can happen on any station with a factory. There is no 2 way traffic. With the Megacorps and Alliances controlling the fringe sectors, there is no way for any corporation operating in the core sector to compete. This flys against every notion of a "real space empire" where the core sector is rich and the fringe sector are tough to make a living on.
You can run a high volume low end mineral operation, set up high sell orders to 0.0 portals, and low buy orders of high end minerals. If you have sufficient volumes that 0.0 dwellers don't have to bother to go to jita (saving hours of freighter travel) you can get your high ends cheap, and get better isk for your low ends than in jita.
Certain things (such as T2 production) are done in empire only, because of better security. Add into that the impossibility of transporting large volumes of large items to deep no-sec, it becomes more profitable to haul the low end materials to the fringe, than the actual ships. In general you can compete by selling products that are not native to the region you live in, and buying native products there...
A word on empires. An empire is an organisation that lives, or leaches off the other organisations in it's sphere of infulence.
Originally by: Noriko Sakai
...
From a roleplaying perspective.
With the introduction of pod pilots and cybernetic learning systems, many pod pilots have the scientific and engineering skills , and also know how to manage and design such factories, production systems and know how to finance them. There is no possible explanation why they would not have created such systems on stations they control. If they do not know it, they can aquire the level of understanding available on planet to only a few elite in a matter of days or weeks.
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P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
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