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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29687
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Posted - 2015.02.07 18:44:37 -
[1] - Quote
Watching my shields slowly regenerate on armor tanked carriers made me wonder if it was time to have ships with specific tanks, rather than all three (shield, armor, hull). There's some freedom and versatility in having the option of shields and armor as viable tanks, but would it be worth specializing racial ships into distinct armor- or shield-only options? Minmatar might retain shields and armor, as a sort of wishy-washy mix, but that's what they are already... more or less able to straddle both armor and shields.
But for the other races, is there an opportunity for clearly defined identities here?
Minmatar - Shield / Armor
Caldari - Shield
Amarr - Armor
Gallente - Hull
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Lugh Crow-Slave
679
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Posted - 2015.02.07 18:50:45 -
[2] - Quote
so now i have less choice on what i can tank my ship?
like my armor widow or hull hookbill or the shield pally
Fuel block colors
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29687
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Posted - 2015.02.07 18:52:53 -
[3] - Quote
For the sake of identity, yes. Ishtars that can't benefit from shield tanks because they lack shields, etc. This is a profound change to ships, but it seems viable.
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Iain Cariaba
1032
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Posted - 2015.02.07 19:01:28 -
[4] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:For the sake of identity, yes. Ishtars that can't benefit from shield tanks because they lack shields, etc. This is a profound change to ships, but it seems viable.
How does restricting the options availble to the players make this idea viable? If I want to shield tank an Amarr ship and devote it's lows to heat sinks and tracking enhancers, why shouldn't I be able to simply because you think it'd be cool to keep me from doing so.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
"This reminds me - I must complain to my local butcher about him not catering to vegitarians." - admiral root responding to someone whining about too much PvP in Eve Online.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29687
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Posted - 2015.02.07 19:02:38 -
[5] - Quote
Identity
lol. and also from keeping you from making something imbalanced by forgoing its racial tank to make more use of damage mods. Like shield Oracles or shield Ishtars or Domis. Your example is a great example of why else this would be a good idea.
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality
DARKNESS.
1002
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Posted - 2015.02.07 19:11:29 -
[6] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Identity
lol. and also to prevent you from making something imbalanced by forgoing its racial tank to make more use of damage mods. Like shield Oracles or shield Ishtars or Domis. Your example is a great reason why else this would be a good idea. So is the armor Widow, which I've used for quite some time in wormholes.
Odd, I must have missed the bit where CCP put a "You should only armor tank these ships" tag on each of those.
I look at a 5/5 slot split on meds and lows for the Ishtar and go "OF COURSE! that must be an armor only ship as the game designers intended!"
Yige Shen / 10 |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
664
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Posted - 2015.02.07 19:13:27 -
[7] - Quote
I shield tank neuting drone legions and armor tank rapiers.
What now?
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
679
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Posted - 2015.02.07 19:14:40 -
[8] - Quote
Choice and player creativity is part of what makes this game great this is a sand box game after all
if anything this takes identity away from the player as they can no longer fit a ship to fit their play style
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29687
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:01:41 -
[9] - Quote
If you want to fly shield ships, then fly shield ships? I don't think this eliminates playstyles, but rather strengthens the distinction between ships
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
944
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:06:35 -
[10] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:If you want to fly shield ships, then fly shield ships? I don't think this eliminates playstyles, but rather strengthens the distinction between ships
It stovepipes ships into very few fits and leaves little room for surprises. I prefer the current flexibility so a -1 from me I think... |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
680
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:08:49 -
[11] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:If you want to fly shield ships, then fly shield ships? I don't think this eliminates playstyles, but rather strengthens the distinction between ships
and if i want a shield tank and use drones what ship should i use
or if i want to armor tank with hybrids? (this one is very common if you haven't noticed)
or shield tank with beams
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29687
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:10:30 -
[12] - Quote
If you want to shield tank with beams, fly Sansha.
If you want to armor tank with hybrids, fly Serpentis.
If you want to shield tank with drones, fly Guristas.
do you see how this change benefits identity now?
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Lugh Crow-Slave
680
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:14:16 -
[13] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:If you want to shield tank with beams, fly Sansha.
If you want to armor tank with hybrids, fly Serpentis.
If you want to shield tank with drones, fly Guristas.
do you see how this change benefits identity now?
no i don't its still taking the identity from me.
what if i want shield tank with neuts drones and beams
or shield tank with drones and blasters
maybe hull tank with missiles
i can keep going
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Krops Vont
Hard Knocks Inc.
42
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:19:42 -
[14] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Watching my shields slowly regenerate on armor tanked carriers REFIT NUMNUTS
The good: You fit in lore wise.
Ships will be much more predictable than they are now
You would never have to worry about a max dps shield moros
The bad: You would put lore over gameplay which is already a -1 from me. I love a good story but I don't want my ALL TORPEDOS AWAY on a rokh unless I actually fit them. Ok?
Ships will be much more predictable than they are now
You would never ever fit a max dps shield moros
Limiting players playstyle
Limiting fits
Limiting creativity
Limiting element of surprise
Limiting gallente to a joke tank...
By this logic, minmatar would be the best all rounder. No one would fly anything else but that. You would always know they have this tank and shoot their weakest with ease. There would be no counter besides swiping your hands at the enemy because they knew you brough x against their y.
As with any human, we must map out everything for the sake of living. So what happens when you put the same aspect in a game with random events? They go nuts trying to figure out how to predict and map out everything.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29687
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:19:52 -
[15] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Rain6637 wrote:If you want to shield tank with beams, fly Sansha.
If you want to armor tank with hybrids, fly Serpentis.
If you want to shield tank with drones, fly Guristas.
do you see how this change benefits identity now? no i don't its still taking the identity from me. what if i want shield tank with neuts drones and beams or shield tank with drones and blasters maybe hull tank with missiles i can keep going
Shield tank with neuts drones and beams... you want them all bonused? what ship gives you that right now?
You can keep going on being ridiculous, you're right. I can't stop you.
Krops, things like the Tier 3 ships using turrets doesn't involve this idea. I never said the Rokh should use missiles.
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Krops Vont
Hard Knocks Inc.
43
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:35:24 -
[16] - Quote
But it does. Turrets/missiles are influenced by tank. What a player does with their low slots in a shield tank increases damage. Limiting this fundamental structure to one idea takes away the free will in EVE Online so much that players can't come up with nano fit omens or armor tanking scorpions to max jams.
You are also guilty to this idea. Why fit an armor tank on that falcon hmm? 
Please lock thread ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
As with any human, we must map out everything for the sake of living. So what happens when you put the same aspect in a game with random events? They go nuts trying to figure out how to predict and map out everything.
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
175
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:39:36 -
[17] - Quote
CCP doesn't even see hull tanking as a real thing. So you would condemn a whole race of ships to Max 60% resist and horrible reppers both local and remote. |
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
112
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:45:31 -
[18] - Quote
*I want to be rediculous, and you are trying to stop me. I can and do fit ships badly on purpose. I like the game because it doesn't shoehorn me by saying: Mages can't wear armor, thieves may only wear light armor etc. I can fit a shield domi/ishtar, or an armor scorpion, or if i'm really drunk, fit both active shield and armor and pigeonhole the resists.
I like to have the choice to fit badly, or in another light, innovatively.
Just leave the system alone and let people make poor choices, the killboards are more entertaining that way.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29687
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:48:21 -
[19] - Quote
I should tell you I'm incredibly amused that you're calling for a lock in a legitimate discussion thread.
Falcons enjoy a bit too much benefit from using armor, as they already have (had?) miniature hac resists. So yeah, I've used armor Falcons but that doesn't make it right. It's another reason why it could use some limitation for fitting options.
Armor ships get three mids in a lot of cases, and Shield ships could recieve the smattering of three low slots in the name of fairness. This would involve a pretty big shakeup of slot configurations, but hey let's think outside the box for a bit and consider the implications, instead of assuming it's about to happen and that it's something to get upset about.
Seriously, how about having a different type of discussion in F&I for once, one that is interesting.
Lady Rift, I disagree about CCP's intent for hull tanking. I think it's been an idea for some time, but perhaps under developed. Hull tanking could use its own category of skills (apart from shield and armor).
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
64
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:49:16 -
[20] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:CCP doesn't even see hull tanking as a real thing. So you would condemn a whole race of ships to Max 60% resist and horrible reppers both local and remote.
They've obviously never encountered a hull tanked brutix navy issue. Seriously, it's like trying to shoot through a brick wall with straw.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Lugh Crow-Slave
681
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:49:35 -
[21] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
what if i want shield tank with neuts drones and beams
or shield tank with drones and blasters
maybe hull tank with missiles
i can keep going
Shield tank with neuts drones and beams... you want them all bonused? what ship gives you that right now?
a DPS curse or pilgrim will use shield tank drones and nuets
Rain6637 wrote:
You can keep going on being ridiculous, you're right. I can't stop you.
there is nothing ridicules about a shield ishtar or a hull hookbil (you get more EHP out of it than an armor hookbill and a shield hookbill either has almost no tank or no utility)
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29687
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Posted - 2015.02.07 21:03:19 -
[22] - Quote
That's the general idea. Force ships to function more like the intended way they were balanced.
By the way, do you mind posting this Pilgrim or Curse fit you are thinking of
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Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force
A T O N E M E N T
611
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Posted - 2015.02.07 21:17:13 -
[23] - Quote
The choice of tank already represents the identity of the player - it is their ship and they can creatively play with it based on fitting and slot boundaries.
Some will opt for double repped ships, double ancil, quick shield ships, buffer brick tanks, low sig armor ships, speed tanked ships, e-war tanks, range tanks.
What makes this game exciting is the ability to establish a tactic for yourself. Using a shield or armor playing may not always be optimal - How many Caldari ships do you see using Armor plays past the blackbird? For the most part it is sub optimal for them to do so. BUT they still can and that is the glory of it .
Even if a Caldari Navy Hookbill is armor tanked it does not take away from its identity - as said ship still utilizes the Caldari trait of having the most midslots. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29687
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Posted - 2015.02.07 21:29:54 -
[24] - Quote
I like how you're playing with the term "identity" but all your examples are obfuscations of intended roles.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality
DARKNESS.
1004
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Posted - 2015.02.07 21:34:06 -
[25] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I like how you're playing with the term "identity" but all your examples are obfuscations of intended roles.
I like how you are playing around with the term "intended" when CCP has never in any way stated that they want ships to always fit certain defense types. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden
Workers Trade Federation
224
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Posted - 2015.02.07 21:40:13 -
[26] - Quote
Stop trolling the forum please. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
681
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Posted - 2015.02.07 21:41:12 -
[27] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:
By the way, do you mind posting this Pilgrim or Curse fit you are thinking of
[Curse, Curse fit]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN Microwarpdrive II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
this gets you 56k ehp and 322 DPS using valk IIs or 201 using warrior II
and this isn't even optimized made it in 3 min but here you have a shield tanked neut drone boat
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29687
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Posted - 2015.02.07 21:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
You can't interpret racial tank themes and bonuses as intent?
Hey Celthric, I'm just putting some different ideas out there for discussion. If you're reacting a certain way that keeps you from thinking straight, I can't help you and I feel bad for you.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
681
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Posted - 2015.02.07 21:43:42 -
[29] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:The choice of tank already represents the identity of the player - it is their ship and they can creatively play with it based on fitting and slot boundaries.
Some will opt for double repped ships, double ancil, quick shield ships, buffer brick tanks, low sig armor ships, speed tanked ships, e-war tanks, range tanks.
What makes this game exciting is the ability to establish a tactic for yourself. Using a shield or armor playing may not always be optimal - How many Caldari ships do you see using Armor plays past the blackbird? For the most part it is sub optimal for them to do so. BUT they still can and that is the glory of it .
Even if a Caldari Navy Hookbill is armor tanked it does not take away from its identity - as said ship still utilizes the Caldari trait of having the most midslots.
Try it will hull tank now that they have the new rigs you can get more EHP and its faster
EDIT: oh wait it's not supposed to tank that way better not
Fuel block colors
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
29687
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Posted - 2015.02.07 21:45:10 -
[30] - Quote
And you know what would be a fair trade off?
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Mid for non-shield
Mid for non-shield
10MN Microwarpdrive II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Rig for non-shield
Rig for non-shield
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