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Swindy AirHawk Alliance Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.04 18:45:00 - [301] Edited by: Swindy on 04/10/2006 18:46:00 Originally by: Helplessandlost Hrm, how about you create an alt on your main, you work to get this alt into a safe spot in that 0.0 choke point, log him off and leave him there. You come down with your main and log off in the last "safe" system before that choke point, log on your alt in the choke point and see if the system is camped. If it is well then you wait them out, if it's not then log off alt, log on main... The use of a "disposable alt" fits under the concept of meta-gaming that folks were talking about earlier. The fact that it's being used as a way to avoid gate camps should tell us what the real problem is; gate camps and no good way to detect/avoid them. In the TV series SG-1 they use remote controlled robots to see what's on the other side of a gate. In EVE we use disposable alts. What a crummy solution.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.10.04 19:08:00 - [302] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 04/10/2006 19:09:55 Originally by: Swindy The use of a "disposable alt" fits under the concept of meta-gaming that folks were talking about earlier. The fact that it's being used as a way to avoid gate camps should tell us what the real problem is; gate camps and no good way to detect/avoid them. The fact that there is not an 100% fool proof way for a solo pilot to avoid a whole camp of people doing everything in their power to secure a gate any time he wants and in any ship he wants to try it in tells us that? Actually all logging really tells us is that 1] Some people are way too attached to imaginary stuff, and 2]There aren't proper sa**uards in place yet to keep them from doing it. I agree on the alts being metagaming too, but at least there CCP has been utterly clear: the use of alts for scouting (and most other things) isn't an exploit. edit: lol, this wordfilter is something else. * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Complacency's Bane	Posted - 2006.10.04 19:14:00 - [303] Originally by: Swindy The use of a "disposable alt" fits under the concept of meta-gaming that folks were talking about earlier. The fact that it's being used as a way to avoid gate camps should tell us what the real problem is; gate camps and no good way to detect/avoid them. In the TV series SG-1 they use remote controlled robots to see what's on the other side of a gate. In EVE we use disposable alts. What a crummy solution. It tells me exactly what the problem is - people arent willing to utilize corpmates and actual scouts because thats too much work. I'd love to see disposable alts go the way of the dodo and triple-MWD blockaderunner setups, because it would give a distinct advantage to people who are actually willing to group up and travel. Thats really neither here nor there though, since this is a thread about the logoff timer bug. Its a bug that needs fixing, fix bug please.
Azrael Bierce Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2006.10.04 20:02:00 - [304] Get rid of the emergency warp entirely. I'm sure it has its uses but between exploits like this, and even the simple fact that you get warped AWAY from protection when you log out is stupid (i.e. if you log at a POS you warp off into space where you can be probed and killed). Of course, the big thing that could be done to people that do this currently is simply have probers at your gate camps. The emergency warp is only gonna take em about 1au away. 3au probes will sniff them out long before they leave space. If they stayed logged in at least they could have shot at you, but by logging off they become free kills. Also, can you bump them out of alignment on emergency warps? Could you just keep the guy spinning?
Complacency's Bane	Posted - 2006.10.04 20:10:00 - [305] Originally by: Azrael Bierce Get rid of the emergency warp entirely. I'm sure it has its uses but between exploits like this, and even the simple fact that you get warped AWAY from protection when you log out is stupid (i.e. if you log at a POS you warp off into space where you can be probed and killed). Of course, the big thing that could be done to people that do this currently is simply have probers at your gate camps. The emergency warp is only gonna take em about 1au away. 3au probes will sniff them out long before they leave space. If they stayed logged in at least they could have shot at you, but by logging off they become free kills. Also, can you bump them out of alignment on emergency warps? Could you just keep the guy spinning? Yes, you can bump eWarp. The warp takes you 1m k away (not 1AU). You dont have time to probe down people who did not log flagged, assuming that they didnt do it after jumping and so simply disappeared while scrambled. If you log at a PoS while unflagged there wont be enough time to probe you down and kill you.
Infinity Ziona Privateers	Posted - 2006.10.04 21:14:00 - [306] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 04/10/2006 21:16:13 I agree that having to use an alt is a pretty poor solution but CCP hasnt implemented any solution so its gotta do for now. Using an alt to scout is no where near similiar to crashing or discoing your PC to avoid death and deprive somebody of a rightful kill, even if like me you hate the mechanics of gate ganking, they did work for the kill by sitting there. Also this has got nothing to do with carebears vs PvPr's since this tactic is used by both carebears and the so called hardcore pvpr's. Also I dont think any game should ever have mechanics that penalize connected players when another person pc, connection, crashes and discos them. Disco's are the risk you take when you use the net and we all share that risk equally. The Privateering Life
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.04 21:56:00 - [307] I cant belive this thread is 11 pages long The point is that logging out\quiting while cloaked from a jumpin should be a bug that needs squashed. you simply can't defend tactics like that because they simply exploit gameplay mechanics that were not supposed to be sud that way. -----
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2006.10.05 09:56:00 - [308] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 05/10/2006 10:03:06 Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Iyanah so your connection or client crashes whilst you're in an expensive ship, and some sneaky SOB comes up and blows you up, then pods you because you were sat there trying to reconnect? when people are genuinely disconnected because something breaks, it's only fair that they not get f'ed over by it. If you are afraid of loosing an expensive ship due to a client crash don't fly it into a situation where it might happen. If you want to go to 0.0 just take a cheaper ship. It's your choice to jump into that 0.0 system that might be bubble camped with that expensive ship, not anyone else’s. If you are not prepared to deal with the consequences of flying in 0.0 don't do it. Very simple. You won't get the rewards of 0.0 without the risks of it. It happense even while doing complex of mission. Before discovering that playing in windowed mode wa more stable, I had a lot of freze up, requiring to restart the computer. And most of the time I returned findig that almost destroyed enemyes had chewed mi ship to the hull or beyond. So "fixing" DC so you don't jump to a safespot 1 million km away menas a way higher deat rate in mission and complex. I agree you shouldn't diasppear istantly from the game, but teh solution must be viable even for PvE gaming, or mining (couple of time I have lost a ship .
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2006.10.05 12:10:00 - [309] Edited by: Tiny Tove on 05/10/2006 12:10:39 Originally by: Ozzie Asrail I cant belive this thread is 11 pages long I know! ROFL! Don't these people understand that being completely lame and doing camps only breeds further lameness and they only have themselves to blame, they should SO get over it! "Dear CCP, Please can you fix it for me to have everybody's account log in simultaneously into a system, and at a time, of my choosing please. It's just that I'm a bit lame, and I like to hold all the cards in Eve, because in Real Life I hold no cards whatsoever, I got beat up while I was at school, my mother never hugged me, the girls at University shunned me, and my boss treats me like dirt, so I NEED this outlet, where I can vent it all non-consensually as predescribed. The fact that they can non-consensually disengage invokes my hypocritical reaction that causes me unnecessary turmoil and I think that slaughtering a HUGE pile of ships with little to no chance of ever retaliating will help me get over this litany of inadequacy from which I suffer. Can you add it to the EULA that all players are compelled to play Eve with ME at all times whenever I so choose it, so that if somebody decides that I'm a bit sucky and stops playing with me, I can have their account cancelled too, also I would like somebody from CCP to go to there home and break their knees. I'd do it myself, but that would require more than a thimble full of courage and initiative, which I am clearly lacking. Also can you stop people posting things on the forum I disagree with. It upsets me too. I don't need this you know. I pay my money like everyone else, give me special consideration." These people need a lot more help than having some "bug" fixed. Is it really a bug that when I stop playing a game, it actually stops playing? Come on... stop being silly... desperation has limits surely? Doesn't it? 11 pages of desperation begs to differ though.
Helplessandlost Minmatar Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.05 12:14:00 - [310] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Helplessandlost Hrm, how about you create an alt on your main, you work to get this alt into a safe spot in that 0.0 choke point, log him off and leave him there. You come down with your main and log off in the last "safe" system before that choke point, log on your alt in the choke point and see if the system is camped. If it is well then you wait them out, if it's not then log off alt, log on main... Pretty tough eh? Edit spelling This is your solution? How sad. Heh, no but it is a suggestion for his lame excuses that is less lame then the others. "Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive!"

Helplessandlost Minmatar Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.05 12:16:00 - [311] Originally by: Amiable Quinn Originally by: Helplessandlost Let see it: 2 accounts as you can't run 2 time the same account with different alt. So duble the subscrition price. Aceptable to my, I have a second account to train a total different set of skill, but not for most of the people. And you put a divide line based on RL money. No good. Hrm, how about you create an alt on your main, you work to get this alt into a safe spot in that 0.0 choke point, log him off and leave him there. You come down with your main and log off in the last "safe" system before that choke point, log on your alt in the choke point and see if the system is camped. If it is well then you wait them out, if it's not then log off alt, log on main... Pretty tough eh? Edit spelling That solution is just as bad metagaming as logging off is in the first place. Just can't please some people can you? It is an alternative to having two accounts, I don't say that I agree with it but it would work just like having two accounts. Takes away my targets either way... Sheesh... "Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive!"
GTSI1	Posted - 2006.10.05 17:14:00 - [312] I havent read the whole of this thread as at 11 pages i cant be arsed to trawl through it, so i apologise if this ground has already been covered. Having been the victim of a gate camp myself once or twice (jumped into 0.0 solo to find a 45 man gate camp with bubbles and the lot) i valiantly tried to fight my way through. hehe my raven was pwned in a matter of seconds swiftly podded soon after. This just made me give up on going to 0.0 and stay in empire. If you gate camp as a defence to an incoming threat then i can understand being ****ed when someone logs, but camping a gate just to notch up killmails is lame. Seems to me it may be the same peeps moaning about logging that also start threads entitled "Why is there no one in 0.0 anymore, is everyone a carebear?" New players and also more experienced players may be a bit more willing to head out to 0.0 if there was more of a chance to get there in one piece to actually fight and lose.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.05 17:22:00 - [313] Originally by: Tiny Tove These people need a lot more help than having some "bug" fixed. Is it really a bug that when I stop playing a game, it actually stops playing? I dont know, when you quit a board game like risk in petulence because youre losing, people generally consider you to have lost (and to be a giant douchebag). If you've quit playing the game because you're going to lose, then youve lost - thats what the PvP flag is for, thats what this bug with the PvP flag is breaking. Its a bug, it needs to be fixed, it will be fixed. This thread exists so that CCP is aware of how much concern there is over the problem - its not an attempt to convince them that it is a problem that needs fixing, because they already know that.
Xordus Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.05 17:58:00 - [314] My question is, does CCP plan to act on this? I mean this is obviously a bullsh*t tactic. If CCP actually condones this type of behavior its a shame. Why even put bubbles in the game if you plan on letting people just log out of them. Xordus
Phoenix Lonestar Litanies of Hate	Posted - 2006.10.05 18:13:00 - [315] Edited by: Phoenix Lonestar on 05/10/2006 18:17:00 I agree that logging is a BS tactic... I also think gatecamps are a pretty lame tactic too. You have 45 ships sitting 180km away from a gate, it's a virtual insta-pop. The people who are complaining about this aren't people who are roving in gangs of 2 or 3 and are griping when the Raven they found in a plex is warping off... they're the gatecampers who are ****ed off that they didn't get that last kill mail. I don't think changing anything in the game mechanics to benefit gate campers is the right solution. If CCP fixes the log off bug, then they need to extend the range of gate guns to 250 km. That way gatecamping as a defense to war target invasion is still a valid defense, but trying to pop individuals just to get the killmail will be discouraged. This is coming from a recovering gatecamper.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.05 18:19:00 - [316] Originally by: Phoenix Lonestar Edited by: Phoenix Lonestar on 05/10/2006 18:17:00 I agree that logging is a BS tactic... I also think gatecamps are a pretty lame tactic too. You have 45 ships sitting 180km away from a gate, it's a virtual insta-pop. The people who are complaining about this aren't people who are roving in gangs of 2 or 3 and are griping when the Raven they found in a plex is warping off... they're the gatecampers who are ****ed off that they didn't get that last kill mail. I don't think changing anything in the game mechanics to benefit gate campers is the right solution. If CCP fixes the log off bug, then they need to extend the range of gate guns to 250 km. That way gatecamping as a defense to war target invasion is still a valid defense, but trying to pop individuals just to get the killmail will be discouraged. This is coming from a recovering gatecamper. Yes, increasing the range of sentries would definately 'compensate' for the fixing of the logoff bug - after all, interdictor bubbles are so common in .1-.4, and sentries are so common in 0.0. Wait... thats actually completely wrong, and the two have no connection or relevance. Not that I care about empire gatecamping at all, would be nice to push them all down to the gate to tank though instead of aligned sniping at 230k.
Phoenix Lonestar Litanies of Hate	Posted - 2006.10.05 18:34:00 - [317] You're right. I dunno wtf I was thinking. I forgot this was about 'dictor bubbles, etc. The point still stands for gatecamps in .1-.4.
Ace101 Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.05 22:44:00 - [318] signed
Mak'shar Karrde Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.06 00:38:00 - [319] I would just like to take the opportunity to point out that the problem doesn't just revolve around the single person logging out to save his ship/pod. Evidently entire fleets are logging out in order to get around a (smaller!) gatecamp. With that in mind, surely there is a problem that needs to be resolved. If you need proof, read this thread. That thread contains a link to an frapsed video proving the incident happened. Plus, the defence of the offending pilots seems to be 'they do it to'.
Android Mindslave Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.10.06 03:14:00 - [320] Right. Because looking at your map is just too hard to be a viable solution for avoiding camped systems.

Awox	Posted - 2006.10.06 03:16:00 - [321] Let's checkout the requirements for an Interdictor + sphere launcher: Destroyer lvl5 Propulsion Jamming lvl5 Graviton Physics lvl1 <- Science lvl5 Interceptors lvl4 <- Evasive Maneuvering lvl5 Interdictors lvl1 That's about 50mil worth of skillbooks. Now, let's buy a Sabre. Let's fit some goodies, easily you could use decent fittings and your Interdictor might cost 30-35m. After going through all that to discover most people just log out rather than fighting (and possibly winning or accepting defeat and paying a toll).. well that's just a kick in the face. "You can get probes to probe out loggers!" - ONLY if they log off after decloaking, like to save their pod or warp to random planet... great. So instead people travelling having a mate to scout, the hunter needs a mate to probe. So now who is lazy? EVE is a time-sink, the more time you invest into EVE the more money CCP makes. CCP have kept this policy as a way of keeping the most people happy. More people fly NPC farming battleships solo in 0.0 than interdictors (I don't even need statistics for this to be believeable) so CCP want to keep the farming battleships happy, and get more money. CCP should grow a pair and ban these muppets.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.06 04:25:00 - [322] "Hrm, how about you create an alt on your main, you work to get this alt into a safe spot in that 0.0 choke point, log him off and leave him there. You come down with your main and log off in the last "safe" system before that choke point, log on your alt in the choke point and see if the system is camped. If it is well then you wait them out, if it's not then log off alt, log on main... Pretty tough eh? Edit spelling Oh come on what BS. How can anyone sane suggest that logging out to avoid PvP is a lame cheap exploit, possibly farking beleive that using a alt in a shuttle with nothing to loose to check if there is a camp first isnt doing the exact lame thing with a different mechanic. Sorry using an alt to check for camps is atleast as lame or lamer than logging. I swear this game is plauged with all the lamers who couldnt cut in every other farking pvp game in existince, from the ****er blobers, to the lamer gate campers, to the loggers, to the log in trappers, to the lame scammers, to the lame greifers, to the lame snipers..... is like every degenerate from pvp games ended up in eve and they all beleive thier unique gimptard version of pvp is somehow hardcore pvp.
losmandy	Posted - 2006.10.06 06:22:00 - [323] Gate camping should be banned
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.06 06:39:00 - [324] Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 06/10/2006 06:39:35 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Oh come on what BS. How can anyone sane suggest that logging out to avoid PvP is a lame cheap exploit, possibly farking beleive that using a alt in a shuttle with nothing to loose to check if there is a camp first isnt doing the exact lame thing with a different mechanic. Sorry using an alt to check for camps is atleast as lame or lamer than logging. I swear this game is plauged with all the lamers who couldnt cut in every other farking pvp game in existince, from the **er blobers, to the lamer gate campers, to the loggers, to the log in trappers, to the lame scammers, to the lame greifers, to the lame snipers..... is like every degenerate from pvp games ended up in eve and they all beleive thier unique gimptard version of pvp is somehow hardcore pvp. Wahwahwahwahwah 0.0 r t3h dangerous. I r crying irl nubs. Come on. You cant honestly be this ignorant, can you? Alts are bad, but theyre unfortunately accepted and theres little that can be done about it. Logging is bad, it is no longer accepted thanks to the PvP flag, and this is a very simple case of a bug which needs to be fixed. Originally by:** losmandy Gate camping should be banned Jumping through gates should be banned.
Bone Krusher	Posted - 2006.10.06 17:43:00 - [325] I maintain that a warp bubble should act as a warp bubble, PERIOD! However, if CCP doesn't think that is reasonable/fixable, what would happen if a gate jump activated the log off timer? Peeps who really do crash would be somewhat protected. Or protected long enough for them to re-log and at least have a chance to defend themselves. The loggers could be probed and killed like the cheaters they are. Thoughts?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.06 19:13:00 - [326] Ways to Avoid a Gatecamp in 0.0 1) Use a Scan alt 2) Ask a corp member or friend that is already there to check for you. 3) Send a corp member or friend through in an interceptor or speed kitted tech 1 frigate to check first. All of this combined with using the map to look at ship kills and pod kills and using your brain. Its not that hard. Those that resort only to logoff tactics are 1) cowards and 2) not fit to be in 0.0 mentally. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Vaeldan Athargan	Posted - 2006.10.08 00:00:00 - [327] What I love about this thread? It comprises a lot of crap arguments. I see a lot of this: : I can't gank because victims are logging out. Lame! : Not as lame as ganking in the first place. : You're lame! : So victims are making a logical decision based on their style of play within Eve. You don't like it, you complain. : It's an exploit. And if people don't like it, join an Alliance/Corp to fight back! The end argument has come full circle. A has sealed/ended their argument by telling everyone that the only acceptable fix is to fight them, or lose your ship/cargo. No options or consideration for different styles of play. "Play my way or stay out of 0.0" seems to be a theme for argument of the A side here. This makes this 'discussion' nothing more than a foot-stomping tantrum. Doesn't matter what the conversation was supposed to be about, or what the subject matter is. Personally, I don't care either way. As pointed out before, people will find counters to everything they do not like in this game or in the way that others play it. CCP's job is to balance the mechanics with an eye to least common denominators such as legitimate dropped connections. Here's an option for discussion: How about CCP makes it so that bubbles cannot be brought up within 16km of any gate or station, much like the anchoring rules? Campers will hate the idea because it will make their bubble tactics require either larger bubbles (nets) or make them strategically place them in warp paths. But it gives 'innocent victims' a chance to run for the gate, AND give the campers a chance to lock them up without the bubble.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.08 00:09:00 - [328] The problem with this thread is that it has largely degenerated into a debate (read "flaming row") about ganking. Ganking isn't the problem here. Wehter we like ganking or not, it is a game feature, and an intentional one at that. What this thread is about is people exploiting a loop hole in the game (er, I know it's not an actual exploit, figure of speach) to avoid combat. The feature of dissapearing when you log out, in the form it currently is, is only in as a safe guard to those who have genuinely crashed. The fact that people are using it to avoid any fights they don't think they can win (by having their ship magically break all laws of nature, fly away and dissapear) is just silly, and a way of avoiding in game mechanics when they don't suit you. Whether you like ganking (and wish it were easier) or hate ganking (and wish it were made alot harder) really has nothing to do with this.
Afonso Henriques Minmatar Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2006.10.08 00:24:00 - [329] My problem is that 0.0 is all about controlling space and non-consentual pvp. This logging out exploit (its an exploit to me) prevents this from happing. I suppose we should have to agree to fight?
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.08 00:40:00 - [330] "The problem with this thread is that it has largely degenerated into a debate (read "flaming row") about ganking. Ganking isn't the problem here. Wehter we like ganking or not, it is a game feature, and an intentional one at that. What this thread is about is people exploiting a loop hole in the game (er, I know it's not an actual exploit, figure of speach) to avoid combat. The feature of dissapearing when you log out, in the form it currently is, is only in as a safe guard to those who have genuinely crashed. The fact that people are using it to avoid any fights they don't think they can win (by having their ship magically break all laws of nature, fly away and dissapear) is just silly, and a way of avoiding in game mechanics when they don't suit you. Whether you like ganking (and wish it were easier) or hate ganking (and wish it were made alot harder) really has nothing to do with this." Errrrm uhh wtf since when is ganking a game feature LOL, look any arguement you wanna pose tends to break down as the fact remains it is an intended feature for your ship to warp away when you d/c. I see nothing but pure speculation that scramblers don't work is a bug PURE speculation. The fact the ship stays in space when agressed means you can kill someone who logs on you. You just need to hunt them down. Ganking is nothing mroe than exploiting a game mechanic as well. using an alt is exploiting a game mechanic as well. I find it comical using an alt is acceptable way to avoid PVP but logging out isnt criminal lol. Honestly I dont care either way But i hope and pray CCP has the sense and guts to make a change to EVE that puts severe disadavantages on those who wish to camp instead of HUGE benifits. Any time the prefered choice of gameplay is to sit in 1 spot waiting for helpless peopel to zone in to die with no chance, it should be a HUGE red flag to the developers that thier PVP system has compeltely broken down.



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