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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
9667
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:08:08 -
[151] - Quote
Celestia Via wrote:To all people advocating against change:
I like EvE as it is too, but really? are you so afraid that if it changed to include women it would have to be full of pink unicorns, love and understanding?? Or maybe you like it so much as is it that you dont want a single byte of code changed?
Change does not mean that it wont be competitive anymore, that chicks will come and put "hello kitty" stickers on your Rifters and all that. It can keep its male competitive side AND have new aspects that would appeal to women, does that sound so scary?
Yes, because what you describe is not possible. Give one example (game or real world) where this has ever happened. EVE stops being a game about freedom when you start gerrymandering it to cater to people who don't like it's original concept in the 1st place.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14915
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:10:04 -
[152] - Quote
Rockstede wrote:baltec1 wrote:Elenahina wrote:Part of it may the fact that a girl in teamspeak is generally enough to reduce corps of grown men to teenagers in a **** measuring contest. I imagine it's amusing at first, but I expect the novelty wears off after a while.
We stamped out that bullshit a few years ago. Lol BS
Nope, it happened.
The last guy that said "hur dur a w0man m8k me a sammich" in fleet with me got a swift podding.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
545
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:10:28 -
[153] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Eve (in most cases) is the only MMO left where I get heckled instantly for describing myself as a feminist. Maybe it's because EVE players are educated enough to know what a toxic movement feminism really is. If you knew anything about feminism, you'd know it's a single generalization for a ton of much smaller diverse movements of varying toxicity, many of which often even work against eachother. The fact that you're willing to dismiss the entire thing offhand suggests you have a lot of personal bias and resentment. I know quite a bit about feminism. I was a feminist for several years. But when followers of the movement almost universally harass a rocket scientist to tears for wearing a tacky Hawaiian shirt on television, it tends to open your eyes. That was the one event which really led me to start questioning and digging deeper. And the more I looked, the less I liked what I saw.
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Also, you basically just agreed with me for your whole post, just with an attitude of more or less "yeah, but so what?", except for the first part.
You're exactly right. There are aspects of the game and its culture that turn women away. Where we differ is that you think this is a problem, and I do not. Now I don't condone people being sexist - that is a problem and I don't deny that there is some of that. What I deny is that this is what's responsible for women being only 5% of EVE players. It isn't. There's just no evidence to suggest that, when other online gaming communities with the exact same issues see much greater numbers of female players.
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
9667
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:10:54 -
[154] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote:. The absolute refusal of many Eve players to show basic mature empathy for people around you and adjust the way you act accordingly. It is for the new person to adjust to the existing environment, not the other way around. The expectation that people will adjust to YOU just because you exist isn't a female thing, lots of males do that too (as evidenced by these very forums lol). It's wrong no matter who is doing it. In other words, it's not our job to be welcoming, its the new member's job to make a place for themselves here. whether they are male or female is irrelevant. See, this is what I'm talking about. You're acting like I'm throwing a stick at your beehive just for pointing this stuff out, when all I'm saying is explaining why people are put off. No, I understand you are saying why. I'm saying you're right, this is why some people (not just women) suck too much to lay EVE lol. This is why I say it's good that EVE is the way it is (a rather exclusive niche game), rather than being the kind of mass appeal game that caters to the masses (male and female) who think the world revolves around them and that things should change simply because they join up. EVE is a game of people who join up and say "it is what it is, let me see what I can do with this" and for whatever reason, this way of being appeals more to men than it does to women. So, women don't play EVE 'cause they suck at EVE, and all things like it...
So, because a person has no Y chromosme, they are automatically awesome at EVE?
"women" don't suck at anything, individuals do. But I wasn't talking about skill at playing a game, I'm talking about temperment.
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Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
40
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:11:15 -
[155] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:I don't understand why so many Eve players seem to think expecting people to act generally decent and be willing to accommodate a little bit to the people they're playing with a little to not annoy or offend them is some crazy demanding egotistical outlandish thing. That's how most of the world works.
no, not at all, the world works on power plays, everyone trying to one up each other, from cvountries doing it, to people standing around a water cooler. The problem is when people think that being offended gives them some sort of rights to silence the other person. The world and other people do not care about your feelings, and that is why EvE is the way it is, and it should stay that way. |
Celestia Via
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
27
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:13:25 -
[156] - Quote
Godfrey Silvarna wrote: The majority of scientific research groups are all-male sausage fests and they manage to do research just fine without having to wrestle or measure dicks to figure out whose results are the best.
I dont know about that, some studies and articles I have read indicate that there are nowadays as many women scientists as men, and that the impression of the all-male scientific community is an anachronism. I cannot vouch for their validity but I would like to believe it.
Also, I am a student on mathematics. My department was male dominated 20 years ago, where now its exactly 50-50, if that tells you anything.
Damjan Fox wrote:Quote:are you so afraid that if it changed to include women And how would such a change look like?
thats not for me to decide, its hard for me to even imagine it, let alone make suggestions on it. But i wouldnt think it impossible for trained professionals to achieve. Hard, but not impossible.
There's no place like space
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
545
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:13:46 -
[157] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:I don't understand why so many Eve players seem to think expecting people to act generally decent and be willing to accommodate a little bit to the people they're playing with a little to not annoy or offend them is some crazy demanding egotistical outlandish thing. That's how most of the world works. No it isn't. The world works because we all make the base assumption that people will not change their behavior just because you tell them to. It's a waste of time. You're preaching to the choir if you're telling people that sexist comments are bad. Everyone who agrees with you is already behaving as you want them to, and everyone who doesn't is not going to change for you. I seriously don't know what you expect to happen.
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Vyl Vit
1043
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:13:49 -
[158] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: So, because a person has no Y chromosme, they are automatically awesome at EVE? "women" don't suck at anything, individuals do. But I wasn't talking about skill at playing a game, I'm talking about temperment.
Now, that's some fancy back-pedaling. Yet, even here you can't stop showing your prejudice. Now it's a "temperamental" thing. Yeah, buoy. Give 'em enough rope.
Anyone with any sense has already left town.
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Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
481
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:16:00 -
[159] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: So, because a person has no Y chromosme, they are automatically awesome at EVE? "women" don't suck at anything, individuals do. But I wasn't talking about skill at playing a game, I'm talking about temperment.
Now, that's some fancy back-pedaling. Yet, even here you can't stop showing your prejudice. Now it's a "temperamental" thing. Yeah, buoy. Give 'em enough rope. When finding themselves deeper and deeper in a hole, intelligent people will usually stop digging.
Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to.
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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
497
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:18:26 -
[160] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote:I don't understand why so many Eve players seem to think expecting people to act generally decent and be willing to accommodate a little bit to the people they're playing with a little to not annoy or offend them is some crazy demanding egotistical outlandish thing. That's how most of the world works. no, not at all, the world works on power plays, everyone trying to one up each other, from cvountries doing it, to people standing around a water cooler. The problem is when people think that being offended gives them some sort of rights to silence the other person. The world and other people do not care about your feelings, and that is why EvE is the way it is, and it should stay that way.
That's how you see the world? Man, that sounds terrible! |
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Josef Djugashvilis
2875
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:19:15 -
[161] - Quote
Primary this Rifter wrote,
...Maybe it's because EVE players are educated enough to know what a toxic movement feminism really is...
Lordy, dear Rifter person , the right to free speech does not mean that you have to use it.
This is not a signature.
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Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
265
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:19:17 -
[162] - Quote
Why do so many people here think of "EVE Players" as some sort of monolithic and uniform culture?
Players of different ages have different cultures within EVE. Players of different nationalities have different cultures within EVE. Players of different play styles have different cultures within eve. Players of different alliances have different cultures within EVE. Players of different corporations have different cultures within EVE.
Many of these internal cultures of EVE I enjoy, many I do not enjoy and some I loathe. None of them give any reason to speak of a dominant culture that all players share.
There is no "this is how we EVE players are" in a game this vast. |
Celestia Via
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
28
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:19:44 -
[163] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nope, it happened.The last guy that said "hur dur a w0man m8k me a sammich" in fleet with me got a swift podding.
and to think i believed all the rumors that proclaimed how sexist, unwashed, smelly and decrepid the Goons are. Good for you if you arent joking, its exactly this type of behaviour i would like to see promoted. +1
There's no place like space
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8810
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:20:03 -
[164] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: So, because a person has no Y chromosme, they are automatically awesome at EVE? "women" don't suck at anything, individuals do. But I wasn't talking about skill at playing a game, I'm talking about temperment.
Now, that's some fancy back-pedaling. Yet, even here you can't stop showing your prejudice. Now it's a "temperamental" thing. Yeah, buoy. Give 'em enough rope. When finding themselves deeper and deeper in a hole, intelligent people will usually stop digging. http://youtu.be/b97zJxKEqAk
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
40
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:20:26 -
[165] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
That's how you see the world? Man, that sounds terrible!
The world isn't a pretty place, its not sunshine and rainbows. |
Serene Repose
2194
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:21:18 -
[166] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:This thread is a monument to how men (and boys) have a loose grasp of the truth with a firm grip on the joystick.
THIS
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
265
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:23:23 -
[167] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
That's how you see the world? Man, that sounds terrible!
The world isn't a pretty place, its not sunshine and rainbows. The world is exactly as pretty as we make it.
Luckily, most people are pretty good at filling the world with sunshine and rainbows. Its a beautiful place indeed. |
Lupe Meza
Hedion University Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:23:41 -
[168] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:I don't understand why so many Eve players seem to think expecting people to act generally decent and be willing to accommodate a little bit to the people they're playing with a little to not annoy or offend them is some crazy demanding egotistical outlandish thing. That's how most of the world works.
It's because for whatever reason having respect for other people is seen as a for of weakness, so the more you can exude a persona of not caring about anybody or anything, the "stronger" you appear. Usually goes away on it's own, but takes some longer than others if ever. |
Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
40
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:26:03 -
[169] - Quote
Godfrey Silvarna wrote: The world is exactly as pretty as we make it.
Luckily, most people are pretty good at filling the world with sunshine and rainbows. Its a beautiful place indeed.
well, your an idealist then. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1549
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:26:13 -
[170] - Quote
Lupe Meza wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote:I don't understand why so many Eve players seem to think expecting people to act generally decent and be willing to accommodate a little bit to the people they're playing with a little to not annoy or offend them is some crazy demanding egotistical outlandish thing. That's how most of the world works. It's because for whatever reason having respect for other people is seen as a for of weakness, so the more you can exude a persona of not caring about anybody or anything, the "stronger" you appear. Usually goes away on it's own, but takes some longer than others if ever.
It's even better when you start reading about how that same player base is somehow supposedly more mature than any other game's player base. |
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
547
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:27:43 -
[171] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Primary this Rifter wrote,
...Maybe it's because EVE players are educated enough to know what a toxic movement feminism really is...
Lordy, dear Rifter person , the right to free speech does not mean that you have to use it. That's how you lose it.
Celestia Via wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nope, it happened.The last guy that said "hur dur a w0man m8k me a sammich" in fleet with me got a swift podding. and to think i believed all the rumors that proclaimed how sexist, unwashed, smelly and decrepid the Goons are. Good for you if you arent joking, its exactly this type of behaviour i would like to see promoted. +1 He's not joking. And it's a good thing, of course. But notice how GSF did it without losing its overall cultural identity. A lot of what you people are suggesting is the reason EVE isn't popular with women is the same **** that we're known for, and yet we've got quite a few female players.
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Celestia Via
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
28
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:28:21 -
[172] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:This thread is a monument to how men (and boys) have a loose grasp of the truth with a firm grip on the joystick. THIS
easy to criticize, and not even constructively for that matter. Show us the truth then, if you can see our loose grasp of it so clearly. This is a good thread, interesting stuff to some. Its not mandatory to post something smart in it, really.
There's no place like space
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Lupe Meza
Hedion University Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:29:27 -
[173] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:Kestral Anneto wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Look at the post I wrote. You're defending the way you act - Or rather, the way that a lot of the Eve community acts - on the basis that that's how Eve has "always been", rather then even trying to justify the behaviour itself directly. You're getting defensive because people are coming in to a place where you're used to saying rude and crappy stuff to people and pointing out that it's pretty rude and crappy by most normal standards.
It's that attitude there that makes the game so completely unattractive to women. The absolute refusal of many Eve players to show basic mature empathy for people around you and adjust the way you act accordingly. Perhaps that doesn't matter to you, but it is what it is.
EvE is EvE, it shouldn't change because there is no other game like it. I shouldn't have to defend it, if you can't handle things being said to you, because it offends your sensibilities, then your free to go to another game. We aren't here to be empathetic, we're here to play EvE, if you want empathy, go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure. Isn't that a little circular? EVE is EVE. It's not the first tiem this happens, there is always someone using some flavor of this rallying cry, but they fail to define what EVE is "supposed to be". The best they can do is frame what their experience is from their limited frame of reference. When a game is so many things to so many different people how can it BE anything? Don't miss the subtlety here. You can't say someone else's EVE isn't EVE without saying yourself what EVE is, which is your EVE. That leaves it at who's opinion is more important, yours, or theirs. YOU of course will say yours is, and that's why you say "this is how it's always been." However, having been here "that long" myself, I'll tell you unequivocally, no it is NOT how EVE has always been. It is however how EVE has BECOME....ever since WoW introduced this panda thing we've had this increase in a certain mentality here...I'll bet there's a corresponding decrease over at WoW. This is how people you think are cool TOLD you how EVE is. It's just that level of honesty in our discussions that give them the flavor they have....these days. Have you read my sig....yet?
First CEO I had was one of those older EVE Players around near the dawn of time. He would spin these yarns about how EVE used to be. I had another guy in another corp down the line telling the same stories. I basically asked both of the "what happened"? I mean I enjoy eve, but I only started in 2012 but it is nothing like they described. Hell I'd pay twice the money to play the game they described.
I'd like to think that I can have experiences like they describe but I don't know. |
Crevtran Sbatiol
Outer Void Applications Get Off My Lawn
13
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:29:34 -
[174] - Quote
Jesus, this thread is comedy gold. Want to know what my feminist girlfirend said why she doesn't like Eve? -"I am not interested in spaceships" Guess what she didn't do: Write a blog on tumblr about the opression of open-minded feminists throught the patriachaic Video game industry and men in general.
Then she proceeded to kick demon butt with me in Diablo.
Alice: Geez, Bob, you taunted the Goons and now they want to kill you.
Bob: Should I call the police?
Alice: In game, Bob, kill you in game.
Bob: Ah, so petition it and call the police?
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
70
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:29:43 -
[175] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Maybe guys are better off leaving this one alone. Seriously. All you can do is state your misguided prejudices as gospel truth. How you look when you're done? Really. You don't want that. Don't you think it's a bit ironic to generalise all men as prejudiced? This thread is really fun when you play "spot the feminist".
I prefer to play spot the idiot. The fun part is when they don't realize they've been spotted.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1769
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:29:48 -
[176] - Quote
theres an easy reason not "alot" of women play EVE
culturally and statistically, less women play games then men, yes with younger generations this is changing, but eve is PRIMARILY an older generation's interest, then also realize EVE is a niche hardcore game within an already significant niche market of "games that arent WoW-clones", meaning the number of gamers who play EVE compared to the rest of the market is already low, so the chances of someone not only being in the age-of-interest, as well as into the niche market, AND being a woman, is incredibly low.
EVE caters to a specific brand of people, and the further you venture from the "generic profile" of gamers, the less likely you are to see a diverse playerbase, because it becomes the interest of an ever more niche audience
this isnt a bad thing, its just a thing that is
that being said, I wish more russian girls/women played EVE, because damnit the accidents the dudes have, its like theyre talking with a mouth full food and veins full of alcohol, cant understand a word, the girls are at least a little less guttural. |
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1769
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:30:35 -
[177] - Quote
whoops, double posted, got a "we were ganked" sign and tought it hadnt posted |
Celestia Via
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
28
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:35:35 -
[178] - Quote
Crevtran Sbatiol wrote:Jesus, this thread is comedy gold. Want to know what my feminist girlfirend said why she doesn't like Eve? -"I am not interested in spaceships" Guess what she didn't do: Write a blog on tumblr about the opression of open-minded feminists throught the patriachaic Video game industry and men in general.
Then she proceeded to kick demon butt with me in Diablo.
as opposed to men who all like spaceships? I know alot of girls who can kick ass in a any scifi nerd convention, and Im not even from a country where scifi is promoted any.
I dont believe the scifi content is what drives women away.
There's no place like space
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1549
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:35:38 -
[179] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote: He's not joking. And it's a good thing, of course. But notice how GSF did it without losing its overall cultural identity. A lot of what you people are suggesting is the reason EVE isn't popular with women is the same **** that we're known for, and yet we've got quite a few female players.
That's because any issue pushing women away from EVE are more likely to be out of game than in game with GSF being a example of that. The game didn't have to change one bit for them to implement some sort of moderation on their comms/boards and I'd guess the male to female ratio grew closer to other game's "standard" of population ratio. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
9670
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:35:49 -
[180] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: So, because a person has no Y chromosme, they are automatically awesome at EVE? "women" don't suck at anything, individuals do. But I wasn't talking about skill at playing a game, I'm talking about temperment.
Now, that's some fancy back-pedaling. Yet, even here you can't stop showing your prejudice. Now it's a "temperamental" thing. Yeah, buoy. Give 'em enough rope.
You're inability to understand what I'm saying is your own personal failing, it has nothing to do with me. |
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