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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Nathanial Victor
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Posted - 2006.10.06 01:09:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Nathanial Victor on 06/10/2006 02:19:40
Originally by: Pestillence We want diversity, not conformity.
what does that mean anyways !?! Does that have anything to do w/ 'cut & run' mentality? lol, what kinda silly rhetoric is that?
what are we conforming/(or not conforming) to????
oh you mean when they impliment new content 'conforming' to their design of the game?
so like, you want something more diverse... like not what the guys that came up w/ this game had in mind?
there are themes in place for the races. following these themes are what give this game its structure and pilots their racially unique combat styles. i'd say some of the worst designes in the game were the more 'diverse' ones that should have conformed a bit more to established themes.
then again, if you REALLY want more diversity.... you cant get much more diversethan playing another game could ya?
(i almost apologize for taking out my aggression at work on you ppl)
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Tommy Vercetti
Minmatar The Nexus Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.06 02:51:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Kazamidori It would be nice to have a blasterboat that handles as good (or better) than a Typhoon using MWD(but definetly not with only 75m^3 drone space)
Lol yeh, you could suit it up and own every single bs in the game. I love it when you guys talk about *balance* rather than *conformity*. Im guessing your idea of balance is that you could get in any Gallente bs and pretty much hand the a** back to any bs pilot.
But no please continue.
Originally by: "Murukan"
It's like really you f***ing t*t, it also out damages my tempest so maybe i shouldn't saunter up to the thron at 2km like i'm ready to suck it's c**k.
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Doc Brown
Gallente Tyrell Corp Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.06 03:08:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Doc Brown on 06/10/2006 03:09:41
I think the best bonuses so far are:
+7.5% blaster dmg/level of gal bship +10% AB speed/level of gal bship
This would make it the ultimate blaster boat and be balanced too. I know the damage bonus is slightly higher than normal ships (7.5% over 5%) but since it would apply to only blasters I think it's warranted.
This ship has no extra tanking or cap, pretty much _IF_ it gets in range you are in trouble, otherwise you'll be fine.
Granted, this ship would be very good in Deadspace complexes. However, the Raven is still better in deadspace complexes.
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There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
Nebuli
Caldari Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2006.10.06 03:10:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Doc Brown I think the best bonuses so far are:
+7.5% blaster dmg/level of gal bship +7.5% AB speed/level of gal bship
This would make it the ultimate blaster boat and be balanced too. I know the damage bonus is slightly higher than normal ships (7.5% over 5%) but since it would apply to only blasters I think it's warranted.
This ship has no extra tanking or cap, pretty much _IF_ it gets in range you are in trouble, otherwise you'll be fine.
My main concern with the Hype as a blaster boat is that if it doesnt get a tracking bonus AND its faster than a mega its not going to hit anything untill its more or less completely stationary, by which time its gonna be in trouble.
Give it a tracking bonus and its basicaly a mega thats a little faster, has an extra turret slot and crap drone bay.
CEO - Art of War
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soldiier
Karnival of Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.10.06 03:39:00 -
[125]
Id take the Repier bounes over the MWD any day....mwd is just to the target after that its nothing...armor repier amount means less cap in repier and tank more.
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Android Mindslave
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2006.10.06 03:58:00 -
[126]
If your going to put a placeholder on something...
Man up and put in a tag that says *This is a placeholder for a bonus that we have not assigned yet, if this bonus makes it to the live server, feel free to use this as evidence that we need to do more work on the ship*
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Doc Brown
Gallente Tyrell Corp Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.06 05:27:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Nebuli
My main concern with the Hype as a blaster boat is that if it doesnt get a tracking bonus AND its faster than a mega its not going to hit anything untill its more or less completely stationary, by which time its gonna be in trouble.
Give it a tracking bonus and its basicaly a mega thats a little faster, has an extra turret slot and crap drone bay.
So how about: +7.5% to hybrid blaster tracking/level +10% AB speed/level
??
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There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
Sir Bart
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Posted - 2006.10.06 06:01:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Sir Bart on 06/10/2006 06:03:27 I guess I'd rather not whine in here about that bonus. In general, I think making the hyperion better than blasterthron is going to be tricky since blasterthron is already a very powerful BS. The only weakness it has right now is ECM.
I will suggest some bonuses that I think would be more suitable to a blasterthron that has extra agility (aka hyperion): +sensor strength per level (to reduce the vulnerability of ECM) +weapon falloff +tracking (yeah I know we got it but it's one of the best bonuses for close range pvp) +agility +velocity -signature radius +cap booster boost amount per level (woot!) +armor resists (this is better than + armor repair amount since it can be used to almost tank the same dps but can also be used with armor plates... what most blasterships employ for survivability)
I'll also suggest we come up with different idea for the gallente tier 3. Megathron is already a great close range pvp ship and not so great long ramge (well it's easy to fit and has lots of range but it has a weak alpha strike) Why not give the tier 3 gallente ship the ability to one-shot as hard a tempest? Or give us a typhoon style ship with dual damage types (I hope you don't since I have no missile skills). Or... a sensor damp version of a scorpion?
Basically, I'd like something different than a blasterthron, megathron already does that very well.
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Jonay
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Posted - 2006.10.06 06:29:00 -
[129]
7.5% traking, 5% Rate of fire and increase capacitor , then there will be no problem fitting the mwd and will have traking. Anyway, with the extra mid slot you could fit a traking computer and rest like mega with the previous mwd bonus, but everybody want the extra mid for ECM.
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Wrayeth
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Posted - 2006.10.06 06:29:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Nafri
still the gallente ship will be the second fastest BS, only inferior to the phoon
Which, of course, makes the AC tempest completely useless. Thanks, CCP. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.06 06:50:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Nafri
still the gallente ship will be the second fastest BS, only inferior to the phoon
Which, of course, makes the AC tempest completely useless. Thanks, CCP.
I completely agree. I mean... since the advent of the car no one bothers using bikes for transportation... right?
...right?
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
Nafri
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.06 07:42:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Tovarishch
Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Nafri
still the gallente ship will be the second fastest BS, only inferior to the phoon
Which, of course, makes the AC tempest completely useless. Thanks, CCP.
I completely agree. I mean... since the advent of the car no one bothers using bikes for transportation... right?
...right?
a bike is totally different for a car -.-
so you admit that the tempest will be a like a bike compared to a car?
Its more fun to drive, but when you really have to do something important you will use the car anway
From Dusk till Dawn
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.06 07:45:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 06/10/2006 00:16:31
Originally by: Tuxford We put an armor repair bonus on it for now.
I highlighted the important bit. That bit there means you should all try and calm down.
Jeez...
Very few people are going to believe that. Afterall, the tech 2 ammo stats on the test server were just "placeholders" that were there "for now".
Its not like Tuxford communicates very often either. It was 2 months since he said anything about the ships, and in 2 months from now, Kali is supposed to be on TQ (december). So if people dont speak up now, they wont get the chance.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.06 07:47:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/10/2006 07:47:43
Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Nafri
still the gallente ship will be the second fastest BS, only inferior to the phoon
Which, of course, makes the AC tempest completely useless. Thanks, CCP.
I still get angry when I think about it. People trained minmatar to be fast and agile, and now he creates a fast and agile blastership for the gallente, which already have most of the best ships in the game for close/medium range pvp. Why? Because blasterboats have problems getting in range. Thats basicly their ONLY weakness, and Tux wants to remove it. Great...
Well, at least he is considering something else than mass reduction for now ...
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.10.06 07:53:00 -
[135]
if i was tux i would tell people when they asked that i gave all the ships a survey scanner duration bonus just to see them get even more upset then this.
I'M IN YOUR SYSTEMS. I'M KILLING YOUR MANS!!! |
Donmadefy
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Posted - 2006.10.06 08:12:00 -
[136]
from what I remember, the locking range of the Hype is going to be really short, so any hybrid bonus wont be as effective on rails.
How about a 7.5%/level tracking bonus and a +3%/level inertial stabiliser bonus (both to mass and speed)?
That way you're getting the tracking for moving fast, the manouverability (sp?) and speed.
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Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.06 08:18:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Donmadefy from what I remember, the locking range of the Hype is going to be really short, so any hybrid bonus wont be as effective on rails.
How about a 7.5%/level tracking bonus and a +3%/level inertial stabiliser bonus (both to mass and speed)?
That way you're getting the tracking for moving fast, the manouverability (sp?) and speed.
You're propsing we lose the damage bonus? I could live with that in exchange for tracking. It would be way too uber to have the second bonus affect agility *and* speed though. One or the other. Preferably agility/mass, that way the ship would be fast on AB/MWD but not uber without it.
Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort |
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
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Posted - 2006.10.06 08:27:00 -
[138]
No wonder tux doest speak to us ,he speaks ,and then the forum brigade jumps on him ,like crazy dogs :).
What tux is missing is a devblog about what he has been doing,with some status on all the new ships ,the ecm "nerf" ,the blob "nerf" and the rest of the stuff that is coming in.
Like sharky said we aren't going to be able to test the new ships on the test server, let us help in the status,improving them not making them overpower.
What we have here is a lack of information and we love information ,come on tux trow us a bone i know you are a sexy dev.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.06 10:00:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Tommy Vercetti Lol yeh, you could suit it up and own every single bs in the game. I love it when you guys talk about *balance* rather than *conformity*. Im guessing your idea of balance is that you could get in any Gallente bs and pretty much hand the a** back to any bs pilot.
But no please continue.
Conformity: Each race is balanced according to symmetrical patterns. They have their niche, but the concept and execution of each ship is the same. When a new tier is released, all ships, regardless of race, have been balanced so that they perform the same in an equally recognisable way with the only difference being in what weapons they use and what tank they prefere. The conformity concept is that each race is equally different, but in all aspects that matter they are the same.
Diversity: Diversity is a concept that is sort of a holy graal for many of the older players. Each ship is created minding only what each race would have, and the logics around what that race with this sort of ship would ideally be tweaked for. After this design procedure, the ships are then balanced against each other. The diversity concept is that each race are differently equal, but in the end the performance in the hands of a competent pilot will be comparable - albeit not in the same situation.
Diversity is the hard but rewarding way of designing balance in a game. Conformity is the easy mathematical way of designing balance in a game. The examples of conform balance designs in other games are many, while the examples of diverse designs are very few. The problem with diverse designs is that you can not compare ship A and ship B in situation X, because in situation X ship A is native. The same can be said for ship B in situation Y. The ease with conform game design is that you can easily compare ships A and B in situation X, because both of these ships have been designed for this situation.
My fear now is that the new tier 3 battleships all conform strictly to fleet combat, in which case they will all have long lock ranges and the only two differences will be weapons and tanks. The tanks have already been established, although it must be said that shield or armor boost amount is completely useless in fleet wheras resistance is not. If one think, weapons have also been established. What we will have is this: * each ship get generic ship A * Amarr will get more armour, armour resistance, and laser damage aplied to ship A to create the Abaddon * Caldari will get more shield, shield resistance, and railgun range aplied to ship A to create the Rokh etc.
Very predictable, very conform, essentially the easy way out. Very boring. Each race will with the conform way of ship design be able to participate in each form of combat. The conform designs main advantage is that you can design a game where your choice of race, class, etc at the beginning decides for you what you will be in the end game. The reason for this is that the choices are risk free - you will still be able to compete as an Elven Druid in fleet combat against Orcish Berserkers, only in a very slightly different way.
EVE's original concept was that choices in the beginning set the pace for different trainings, and nothing else. It is designed openly, meaning that you are not bound to Amarr if you made an Amarr character, you can still use Minmatar engineering just as easily as one of the Brutors. For this reason, designing EVE conformly makes no sense. It is only a matter of time before an Intaki can compete in sniping duels with the Caldari, why give Gallente ships snipers in the first place? The truely RP people will be faced with a difficult challenge - challenges are good and fun! - how do I use my race' specialized ships originally and diversely to compete with my enemy on their ground?
But it is important to remember that it is difficult to design diversely, especially with so many races in game! Kneejerks thus tend to create, for example, ECM-NosDoms. - Three years old |
Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.06 12:58:00 -
[140]
Simply give Hyperion the following bonus:
+10% hybrid dmg bonus
no other bonus is needed.
On a different note I invite Tuxford to fly a blasterboat first, it seems you simply calculate DPS values and then decide if something is too strong or too weak.. how else could the horrible idea of "assault missile" been created.. always hitting high DPS missiles.. welcome to the end of EVE...
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Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.06 13:20:00 -
[141]
7,5% dmg Bonus 5% armor Bonus per level
That would get my vote. A nice buffer which would give us the time needed to get in range or to live long enough to win a fight. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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Donmadefy
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Posted - 2006.10.06 15:22:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Alex Tremayne
Originally by: Donmadefy from what I remember, the locking range of the Hype is going to be really short, so any hybrid bonus wont be as effective on rails.
How about a 7.5%/level tracking bonus and a +3%/level inertial stabiliser bonus (both to mass and speed)?
That way you're getting the tracking for moving fast, the manouverability (sp?) and speed.
You're propsing we lose the damage bonus? I could live with that in exchange for tracking. It would be way too uber to have the second bonus affect agility *and* speed though. One or the other. Preferably agility/mass, that way the ship would be fast on AB/MWD but not uber without it.
Would it be uber? Perhaps I was a bit unclear with the numbers. A nanofibre gives +20m/s, 12.5% mass reduction (and a structure penalty) - what if the second bonus increased the nanofibre speed by 4m/s per level and mass reduction by 2% per level? So one nanofibre used by a lvl 5 pilot gave +40m/s and a -22.5% mass reduction, the latter subject to stacking penalties maybe?
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.06 15:24:00 -
[143]
Minor note: nanofibers increase agility (actually, decrease it) while inertia stabilizers will decrease mass.
The difference? Inertia Stabilizers will increase MWD/AB performance and agility while nanofibers increase ship base speed and agility. - Three years old |
Pille Dufrais
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Posted - 2006.10.06 15:32:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Cuebick I have come to the conclusion that the Gallente people are NEVER EVER happy with what they get.. EVER. Except for the Domi, Ishtar and Taranis. The Mega for me is great and tbfh imo tier3 bs wont be the kings of the hills.
That one came from the blue. Aren't you confusing Gallente with Amarr, or maybe Minmatar? Or possibly Caldari.
No, wait. Everyone's got whiners. Or perhaps, the term should be "everyone else", since it's really relative.
At least Gallente get an answer (very quick too) to questions about a non existant ship - Amarr have many pages of posts filled with information on the problems they currently face (and some rubbish trolling ofc) and receive no response......
Gallente seem to be doing ok in comparison
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Idara
Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.06 15:33:00 -
[145]
It's already been said.
But..
Armour rep bonus? Teh sux.
Yes, lets make every goddamn ship class have a ship that mirrors its smaller brothers. I really hate what you've done Tux. Ships used to be unique. Then along came the Mark II project, and everything either has a repper bonuses, or a 5% armour/shield resists. Sure the ships prior to Mk II sucked. But at least they were unique.
Now there has to be a frig/cruiser/BC/BS with the exact same bonuses.
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Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.06 15:35:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Pille Dufrais
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Cuebick I have come to the conclusion that the Gallente people are NEVER EVER happy with what they get.. EVER. Except for the Domi, Ishtar and Taranis. The Mega for me is great and tbfh imo tier3 bs wont be the kings of the hills.
That one came from the blue. Aren't you confusing Gallente with Amarr, or maybe Minmatar? Or possibly Caldari.
No, wait. Everyone's got whiners. Or perhaps, the term should be "everyone else", since it's really relative.
At least Gallente get an answer (very quick too) to questions about a non existant ship - Amarr have many pages of posts filled with information on the problems they currently face (and some rubbish trolling ofc) and receive no response......
Gallente seem to be doing ok in comparison
Go check out the deimos thread...
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Idara
Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.06 15:36:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Kunming
Go check out the deimos thread...
ZOMG one ship!
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.06 15:40:00 -
[148]
The problem with the "Amarr" thred is that it is general. It is extremely difficult for the devs to answer anything in there, and it gets only worse due to the torrential amount of replies. While the Deimos thred is very specific, it also suffer from torrential reply syndrome.
This thread, by contrast, is very specific and would've died out had Tuxford not replied. - Three years old |
Pille Dufrais
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Posted - 2006.10.06 15:46:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Ithildin The problem with the "Amarr" thred is that it is general. It is extremely difficult for the devs to answer anything in there, and it gets only worse due to the torrential amount of replies. While the Deimos thred is very specific, it also suffer from torrential reply syndrome.
This thread, by contrast, is very specific and would've died out had Tuxford not replied.
The Amarr thread makes some very specific points - these were made in the first few pages
There have been a lot of replies - I'm fairly sure if there had been a dev response "yes / No / We're looking at it" as early as there was in this thread - the amarr thread would have died too
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Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.06 16:33:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Tovarishch
Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Nafri
still the gallente ship will be the second fastest BS, only inferior to the phoon
Which, of course, makes the AC tempest completely useless. Thanks, CCP.
I completely agree. I mean... since the advent of the car no one bothers using bikes for transportation... right?
...right?
a bike is totally different for a car -.-
so you admit that the tempest will be a like a bike compared to a car?
Its more fun to drive, but when you really have to do something important you will use the car anway
You missed the point.
Firstly, there are different purposes and roles for different ships. Bonuses dictate those applications. There are always going to be ships that are not as good as others (or second best) at some roles. Just because something is suddenly second best does NOT make it useless.
Secondly, the damn ship isn't even out yet. Let's see what is finally proposed and then save the caps lock and hysterics for once it is actually on Tranquility.
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
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