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Outbreak Status Report. 9-4

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
EnglishBob 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:34:00 - [1] For those who are following the current RISE v Outbreak drama, Here is a short summary of the last 24 hours. After the last Downtime, 'External forces' left the shield at 10%, Outbreak were under instruction not to change this in any way. Outbreak forms a gang with the intention of holding the station against the expected assualt. Many hours of inactivity pass. Around Midnight Eve-time, RISE begin to stir and Outbreak form up in anticipation of some good fighting. A few more hours pass and numbers start to dwindle, when the fight actually begins, Numbers are reduced on both sides. Anyone interested should know where to look. Outbreak successfully defend their territory through to downtime, the station shield has naturally healed to about 85-90% during this time. A great surprise is in store for us as we log in after Downtime. The station has magically passed to a RISE corporation. Draw your own conclusions as to how this happened. Maybe RISE have an elite team of Downtime warriors in Dreads. ------------------
Saal Iverson 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:36:00 - [2] Edited by: Saal Iverson on 06/10/2006 12:37:26 meh
Kazim The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:40:00 - [3] Damn that must be frustrating. But, correct me if I'm wrong, don't you have to be in an alliance to hold stations to begin with?
kbullet Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:45:00 - [4] I do feel really dissapointed of the actions that was undertaken for this. Alot of us EU players stay up to defend and make sure we hold the station after DT today, Rise actually got it together to engage us. (its been a while since our last decent fleet with rise) ofcourse they failed and u know where to find the results. After the fight we stuck around see if rise would have another go, but sadly nothing happened, so i head off to bed with a smile in my face and thinking of the dedication of outbreak members have contributed to prevent rise to take back to do anything. Just right before DT i woke up to check the station and it was still in our control. Local was still filled by outbreak, so i head off to make breakfast watch some TV and still thinking of the deidcation outbreak members have made. i log back in and BAM a smack on the face 9-4 station is under rise control.
Dortock The Scarlet Harmonic	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:45:00 - [5] Looks to be a bug, unfortunately GMs probably can't reverse it due to the dynamic situation taking place. King Tinfoil Hatter
MacDuncan Minmatar Unknown Society	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:54:00 - [6] Pretty sad CCP, honestly...you screwed TOXIN for their affords and reversed game mechanics ("it's not possible ot change ownership of any station, not even within the same alliance!")... I woudln't be surprised to see some more vets leave the game at it's current state... --
Machiavelli7 Gallente Obsidian Asylum Pure.	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:54:00 - [7] that's disgraceful.
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:59:00 - [8] That sucks.
SwindonBadger 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:04:00 - [9] ...... well so how many hrs did external forces waist of players time..... 30 + hrs times roughly 30 people is like 900 hrs worth of anoying campy campy just to get the , um let me show u my madgic DT wand. Dont think its safe to fly around us now eternal forces of much trickery! ur corspe will be worthy of a ban! they could have done this the day before ! but noooooooooo maybe they thought rise would shoot the station? station conqured withought being shot....? all stations need to be shot to get conqured no? please tell me im wrong GMs? forget wether outbreak are allowed to charge/shoot station, even if we werent they would still have had to claim it buy shooting it no? so make them friggen shoot it. I want a T2 burrow and I dont want to dig for it please wave ur wand, just doesnt cut it to me. with kind reagrds ur very tierd and pritty grumpy badger. raghhhh :P least it got us a fight! 3 hrs sleep get the news, counts how many posses rise have left, cleans big shinny gun.
KIATolon Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:05:00 - [10] Apalling
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:07:00 - [11] As I posted before I'm with Outbreak on this one. Shame shame shame !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shield left at 10%, orders given not to try and do something about against Outbreak. Thats a lot offered on a plate for the picking. Considering RISE did not grab the opportunity the station becoms theirs after DT ? If the game at its state permited such things as to Outbreak to take over the station, it is clearly not their fault. If RISE were incapable to take the station back from Outbreak even if so called 'outside forces' diminished the shileds to 10% it is their fault. This hurts and I'm not even involved. what has 4 legs and 1 hand? a happy pitbull
Castor IV 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:14:00 - [12] Edited by: Castor IV on 06/10/2006 13:15:59 As I understand it from what GMs are saying is that a entity that not holds the sovereignty of a system (which only alliance can do) is not supposed to be able to lock and shoot the station. This would mean that 0utbreak should never have been able to conquere the station in the first place. RISE where supposed to be the only entity allowed to shoot the station. Although every one can have their own opinions if thats right or wrong one thing is crystal clear here. RISE still had to shoot the station to claim it. And this is where 0utbreak got screwed by the GMs. Because no one can say that the game mechanics are suppose to allow you to shoot the station in peace without a interference of a third party. A entity shooting the station puts itself always in danger of getting shoot at. And thats exacly what 0utbreak was there to do. RISE where suppose to claim the station by shooting it and 0utbreak was there to make that job as difficult as possible all within game mechanics. And what happens, RISE gets the station handed to them without firing a single shoot at it. This is the reward you get for staying up to 6 AM in the morning to get a fight just to find out you get screwed by 'External force' without any power to do anything about it.
Hellspawn01 Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:18:00 - [13] This magical external interference needs to be looked at, especially the part that happened during downtime. Ship lovers click here
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:19:00 - [14] This is pretty much BS... Whatever the outcome was the BS was the GMs knowing that they were going to switch ownership at downtime and not tell anyone. Utter BS. IF that is the decision at least tell Toxin so they dont waste an entire day trying to defend it. It was on the boards, it was petitioned...it was a known situtation. How long would it have taken for them to just let toxin know what was going to happen, so they didnt waste any time.
SwindonBadger 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:27:00 - [15] please tell me we have some bombay fraps ! as to not go completly insane and try and laugh about it all, I know u had ur camera out
BirdBleed 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:35:00 - [16] lets wardec the gms
KIATolon Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:36:00 - [17] A corp can hold a station, but it cant use soverignity to make the station unshootable.
Tanya Kovacs SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:36:00 - [18] This is a shame. External forces seem to work very independent from eachother. -- All my postings reflects just my personal opinion and my lacking knowledge of proper english. There is no lag in EVE \o/
EnglishBob 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:36:00 - [19] Edited by: EnglishBob on 06/10/2006 13:37:01 Sorry Swindon, The only thing I can offer you is: Marko Debreault: The Movie! (NSFW) ------------------
Caldess 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:39:00 - [20] Originally by: KIATolon A corp can hold a station, but it cant use soverignity to make the station unshootable. We know. We were using our ships to fulfill that role. --------------
Avant Royce Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:40:00 - [21] We are ENRAGED
vache Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:44:00 - [22] Station control was re-granted to RISE as we have sovereignty over the system. As you may or may not be aware, a corp can usually take control of a station except in the case where an alliance actually holds sovereightny in that system. When this is the case, only that alliance can fire upon the station. It was explained to me by a GM that it was an exploit that allowed TOXIN to gain control of the station, so in accordance with CCP rules, station control has been returned to RISE. I'm sure this doesn't overly bother TOXIN as they have expressed before that they have no interest in alliance politics or POS warfare. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Vache REZ - Director of Operations. RISE - Minister of External Affairs.
Castor IV 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:49:00 - [23] Originally by: vache When this is the case, only that alliance can fire upon the station. Quote: Quite true and how many shoots did you fire at the station to claim it for RISE??
SwindonBadger 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:49:00 - [24] answer this, did u get the station without shooting it, if its a yes something is wrong here, if its flawed that outbreak could take it, give it back to the corp that held it (not in ur alliance) and u will still have to shoot it! just beacuse u have sov doesnt meen u dont have to shoot it to reclaim it from the corp that split, ......... u hide places, we dont want those places, but we want to stop u hiding,.
Boldyn 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:49:00 - [25] Originally by: vache Station control was re-granted to RISE as we have sovereignty over the system. As you may or may not be aware, a corp can usually take control of a station except in the case where an alliance actually holds sovereightny in that system. When this is the case, only that alliance can fire upon the station. It was explained to me by a GM that it was an exploit that allowed TOXIN to gain control of the station, so in accordance with CCP rules, station control has been returned to RISE. I'm sure this doesn't overly bother TOXIN as they have expressed before that they have no interest in alliance politics or POS warfare. It was a bug, at best, not an exploit. Pick you words better. And all of that is ofc, totally beside the point, meaning you get 0 points for this atempt. - "Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back"
Saal Iverson 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:53:00 - [26] What would happen in this situation? A corp is in an alliance that owns a station which this alliance has Sov in system. But this alliance leaves the alliance and tells the alliance they are keeping the station. But does not have Sov. Does this mean this corp will simply lose the station by "outside intervention"?
Das Yad 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:55:00 - [27] Originally by: vache Station control was re-granted to RISE as we have sovereignty over the system. As you may or may not be aware, a corp can usually take control of a station except in the case where an alliance actually holds sovereightny in that system. When this is the case, only that alliance can fire upon the station. It was explained to me by a GM that it was an exploit that allowed TOXIN to gain control of the station, so in accordance with CCP rules, station control has been returned to RISE. I'm sure this doesn't overly bother TOXIN as they have expressed before that they have no interest in alliance politics or POS warfare. IIRC from my old alliance days even the ALLIANCE HOLDING SOV of the system cant even lock the station you get the "target invuln" message. IMHO it wasnt a bug since you guys had to shoot the station anyway right? by your rules you shouldn't have even been able to shoot the station since the alliance holding the system sov was rise but wait for this, the corp holding the corp WASN'T in rise at the time. thrilling stuff
Cloue Gallente MAFIA	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:56:00 - [28] For someone that doesnt want to own territory or be in the politics of alliances, you seem to be crying alot about not having it
whisk 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:02:00 - [29] I'd also like to add to English Bobs time line; At around 02:30 local in 9-4 had 40 RISE members suddenly logged off and local in xzh suddenly lost 20 RISE members. At 03:00 local in 9-4 jumped up by 40 people and local in xzh jumped up by 20 people. Also congrats to RISE on not being able to take a station from a 160 man corp who were defending the station with a 30-40 man gang all day, without needing the magic pixie dust to give it back for them.
Pepperami Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:03:00 - [30] This is absolutely disgusting.
ScoRpS 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:03:00 - [31] I am pretty much devestated that we spent so much time isk and resources to avert RISE from recapturing the station TWICE only to be foiled by a power that cannot be challenged. Imagine defending a station from being shot at whilst being told you are not allowed to touch it with sheild regen equipment.... I doubt that RISE actually wanted this outcome and wish them the best of luck in re-securing their position in eve. They'll need it!
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:05:00 - [32] the station in 9-4 loves to be bugged anyway, remember situations after stv + .fsp left d2, lost sov of course due to no alliance, goon took over 9-4 1 or 2 days later, -y- was founded, next dt sov went back to -y- as goons did not had the majority on posses at that stage of war and we could not shoot at the station to get it back from goons. it took the gm¦s quite long to sort that out... (which was really important for us as the xzh station was in goon hand, too). later goons were able to shoot at the station even though not having sov, same was able to us when goon had sov... (but station did not take any dam) anyway, i see nothing wrong in conquering stations even if the conq. corp is not an alliance-member. they will not hold it for a long time anyway and if the old holding corp messed it up (by leaving the alliance) its not the conquerers fault. i did not know that non alliance corps are not allowed to take them over, thought the safety of stations lays in the pos + sov system which is restricted to alliances. just to get this right: the holding corp left rise (bad timing btw)? afterwards outbreak took control over the station by shooting it down as the old holding corp is _not_ in the alliance which currently has sov anylonger? and now ccp says this is not allowed? ccp whether make it possible to switch holding corps inside an alliance (in case a corp leaves in good terms) or just stay out of this story...
Caldess 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:07:00 - [33] Originally by: Cloue For someone that wants people to fight for their space and is willing to devote the time and effort towards that, you seem to be crying alot about them not having to fight and having the station given to them anyway. Fixed. Hope this helps you understand better. Seriously though, apparently all you have to do is has sovereignty over a system where someone else owns the station and just put in a petition and the station will be given to you. No need to shoot the shields or risk engaging a defending fleet at all. Let the GMs do the hard work for you. --------------
Ilmonstre Minmatar 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:08:00 - [34] Originally by: Cloue For someone that doesnt want to own territory or be in the politics of alliances, you seem to be crying alot about not having it the point is we dislike rise and they have alot of assets in the station in 9-4 and aslong as we have the station they can not touch those assets and if the station never gets back to them they wont be able to take it and since people know we are helping Youwhat out with our attacks on rise it would mean that if youwhat would take over sov then rise will loose all those assets as they will be locked up inside the station and now we can not even defend it since rise got it back without firing 1 shot since at the wel 1.5 attempts they made we were there to try to destroy all ships in the hostile gang. so this shows that anny 1 person can hold a station aslong as he/she deploys enough towers to get sov.
Caldess 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:10:00 - [35] Originally by: Ilmonstre so this shows that anny 1 person can hold a station aslong as he/she deploys enough towers to get sov. and enough petitions :) --------------
maGz The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:13:00 - [36] just Absolutely disgusting ____________ The Priory Killboard
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:22:00 - [37] Originally by: vache Station control was re-granted to RISE as we have sovereignty over the system. As you may or may not be aware, a corp can usually take control of a station except in the case where an alliance actually holds sovereightny in that system. When this is the case, only that alliance can fire upon the station. It was explained to me by a GM that it was an exploit that allowed TOXIN to gain control of the station, so in accordance with CCP rules, station control has been returned to RISE. I'm sure this doesn't overly bother TOXIN as they have expressed before that they have no interest in alliance politics or POS warfare. First of all becareful of using that word EXPLOIT. You imply that we deliberatly used some dishonorabe tactic or game mechanics. This is totally false and you know it. I cant speak for all of Toxin but I can speak for my own feelings on the situation. It really sucks. A tremendous amount of my time was wasted sitting around 9-4 for days. The GM's tried to initially make it easier for you to take the station by knocking the shields down for you and tieing our hands behind our backs. Rise didnt even try to get it. The sheilds naturally regenerated on thier own. Another day passes and Rise finally makes a half hearted attempt to take the station this morning at around 04:00 eve time. They got slaughtered in the attempt. So finally the GM's get off the pot and decide that since Rise cant do it for themself that they will just waive thier magic wand and hand it straight over to Rise. That is just plain pathetic. I am serously dispapointed with CCP on this. Me and a lot of other players have had thier time wasted and lost a tremendous amount of respect for CCP in this. If I was in Rise I would hang my head in shame. No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Garramon Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:23:00 - [38] Here is exactly what happened: ToA leaves alliance at downtime, with the 9-4 station in their possession. After downtime, a few RISE see that they can take it for thier corp, and start shooting it. 0utbreak knows that they can take it, and push out the RISE that are shooting it and take the station for themselves. Someone in RISE petitions the GMs asking if this is possible, since RISE has sovereignty. GM says NO, its a bug, and drops the station shields. 0utbreak camps station preventing it from being retaken with a force of about 15 - 25 BS, 4 carriers and 10-20 support, all varying throught the day of course....all day long. RISE sees that this is going to be big and tells everyone that tonight is the night. Four corps out of 26 show up with more than one representative. In total, 7 RISE corps showed their face during the day. These four corps were Ressurection, Sturmgrenadier, Big Advanced Assault and Shadow Gypsies. Total gang spread across the constellation is around 50 to 60. 0utbreak controls the gates as the RISE force is spread around, this makers it very difficult to merge into a viable force. RISE eventually attacks, losing pretty badly. Sob...this isn't good. GM replies again, saying the bug is now known and that the station control will be where it should, in RISE hands. ----------------------------- So, in conclusion, stop accusing RISE of doing something ghey or underhanded. A peition is perfectly valid and bugs happen. I would like to commend the corps that showed up to fight, and I would like to remind everyone that nobody in their right mind fights when they are outmaneuvered and outgunned, its suicide. These four corps do not underestimate the ability 0utbreak brings to the table. They did an excellent job of defending the station, even if it was in vain due to an unknown bug. I am sure RISE will be thinking hard. ----------------------------- That being said, I have just violated a direct order from the ceo of my corp not to post on these forums. For some reason the fact that ~50% of the people replying to the thread fail to read and understand the point of the OP is hilarious.
UniqueOne	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:26:00 - [39] Originally by: Boldyn Originally by: vache Station control was re-granted to RISE as we have sovereignty over the system. As you may or may not be aware, a corp can usually take control of a station except in the case where an alliance actually holds sovereightny in that system. When this is the case, only that alliance can fire upon the station. It was explained to me by a GM that it was an exploit that allowed TOXIN to gain control of the station, so in accordance with CCP rules, station control has been returned to RISE. I'm sure this doesn't overly bother TOXIN as they have expressed before that they have no interest in alliance politics or POS warfare. It was a bug, at best, not an exploit. Pick you words better. And all of that is ofc, totally beside the point, meaning you get 0 points for this atempt. Of course TOXIN don't use explots.. lol I remember them spaming a bunch of cans outside a station in WY-9LL. I also recall them camping jita moon 4 caldari navy assembly in peak time. .. nah, no exploits there
Selpy 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:28:00 - [40] Originally by: UniqueOne Of course TOXIN don't use explots.. lol I remember them spaming a bunch of cans outside a station in WY-9LL. I also recall them camping jita moon 4 caldari navy assembly in peak time. .. nah, no exploits there awww look at the cute lil alt, Marko, can I keep it, he's so cute and cuddly.... Look deep into these eyes, they'll be the last thing to see you!
EnglishBob 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:32:00 - [41] Edited by: EnglishBob on 06/10/2006 14:36:56 edited by EB, There's no point slapping down alts when the mods can do it for me ------------------
Pepperami Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:32:00 - [42] Originally by: Garramon Someone in RISE petitions the GMs asking if this is possible, since RISE has sovereignty. I'm sure there was some "creative" wording in those petitions. Because what has happened has gone against the way the game has functioned since the pos/sov/invuln thing came in. It's truely pathetic and I am so dissapointed a dev has not intervened. I wish this had happened to bob so maybe we'd get a dev sorting out this blatent petition-cheating.
UniqueOne	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:33:00 - [43] Post with your main please. Posting with an unidentified alt in this forum is prohibited, if you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. - Karass Sayfo
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:35:00 - [44] Originally by: Garramon Here is exactly what happened: ToA leaves alliance at downtime, with the 9-4 station in their possession. After downtime, a few RISE see that they can take it for thier corp, and start shooting it. 0utbreak knows that they can take it, and push out the RISE that are shooting it and take the station for themselves. Someone in RISE petitions the GMs asking if this is possible, since RISE has sovereignty. GM says NO, its a bug, and drops the station shields. Just for clarification: Did the petitioner mention that the station-owner was not in rise anylonger? or did he just say: we have sov, why can they shoot at our station?
Shinjuro Solidline Enterprise	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:37:00 - [45] 1. Bug?? How so? It seems from what I have read to been a perfectly legal way of taking the station. 2... 3. Lame at best. Alts rule the bizzy.
Talland 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:38:00 - [46] Edited by: Talland on 06/10/2006 14:39:38 "The test of friendship is assistance in adversity, and that too, unconditional assistance. Co-operation which needs consideration is a commercial contract and not friendship. Conditional co-operation is like adulterated cement which does not bind." - Mahatma Gandhi RISE ALLIANCE MOTTO RISE sees that this is going to be big and tells everyone that tonight is the night. Four corps out of 26 show up with more than one representative. In total, 7 RISE corps showed their face during the day. These four corps were Ressurection, Sturmgrenadier, Big Advanced Assault and Shadow Gypsies. Total gang spread across the constellation is around 50 to 60. - GARRAMON There's a problem somewhere Anyway, here's the fraps of how it was Linkage
UniqueOne Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:40:00 - [47] Originally by: UniqueOne Post with your main please. Posting with an unidentified alt in this forum is prohibited, if you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. - Karass Sayfo This is my main

Karass Sayfo Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:41:00 - [48] Yup, just noticed you edited your forum settings. Happy posting _______ forum rules \| [email protected]

KIATolon Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:42:00 - [49] I think the suggestion is that the bug is that rise had sov, therefore no one should have been able to shoot the station, however that then implies that as soon as any entity gains sov in a system, they automatically get the station... The fact is: Neutral corp owned station, so anyone could shoot it... just because the station USED to belong to rise it doesn't mean it should stay in the possession of rise as corps own stations, not alliances. (although it would make life FAR easier if there WERE an alliance wallet and alliances held the stations!!!) I think the GM has made a mistake... else this is a major policy change.
Azriel Dregg Caldari The Taining corp Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:43:00 - [50] Having been involved in about 8 station captures in the last 6-8 months -- here's how I condense the logic (which has been reinforced by about 4-5 petitions due to various reasons): If outpost is held by a corp that is not part of the alliance that holds Sov, it can be shot by anyone. If the outpost is subsequently captured by a corp that is NOT part of the alliance holding sov, it can immidiately be shot by anyone. If the outpost is subsequently captured by a corp that IS part of the alliance holding sov, it cannot be shot by anyone unless sov is changed/holding corp leaves alliance.
Caldess 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:45:00 - [51] Originally by: Garramon Here is exactly what happened: ToA leaves alliance at downtime, with the 9-4 station in their possession. After downtime, a few RISE see that they can take it for thier corp, and start shooting it. 0utbreak knows that they can take it, and push out the RISE that are shooting it and take the station for themselves. Someone in RISE petitions the GMs asking if this is possible, since RISE has sovereignty. GM says NO, its a bug, and drops the station shields. 0utbreak camps station preventing it from being retaken with a force of about 15 - 25 BS, 4 carriers and 10-20 support, all varying throught the day of course....all day long. RISE sees that this is going to be big and tells everyone that tonight is the night. Four corps out of 26 show up with more than one representative. In total, 7 RISE corps showed their face during the day. These four corps were Ressurection, Sturmgrenadier, Big Advanced Assault and Shadow Gypsies. Total gang spread across the constellation is around 50 to 60. 0utbreak controls the gates as the RISE force is spread around, this makers it very difficult to merge into a viable force. RISE eventually attacks, losing pretty badly. Sob...this isn't good. GM replies again, saying the bug is now known and that the station control will be where it should, in RISE hands. ----------------------------- So, in conclusion, stop accusing RISE of doing something ghey or underhanded. A peition is perfectly valid and bugs happen. I would like to commend the corps that showed up to fight, and I would like to remind everyone that nobody in their right mind fights when they are outmaneuvered and outgunned, its suicide. These four corps do not underestimate the ability 0utbreak brings to the table. They did an excellent job of defending the station, even if it was in vain due to an unknown bug. I am sure RISE will be thinking hard. ----------------------------- That being said, I have just violated a direct order from the ceo of my corp not to post on these forums. Respect to you for posting and respect to Res, Sturm, Big AA and Shadow for showing up to fight. At least you guys show that you are willing to defend your space. Respect. --------------
Mindlles 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:47:00 - [52] Originally by: Garramon Here is exactly what happened: ToA leaves alliance at downtime, with the 9-4 station in their possession. After downtime, a few RISE see that they can take it for thier corp, and start shooting it. 0utbreak knows that they can take it, and push out the RISE that are shooting it and take the station for themselves. Someone in RISE petitions the GMs asking if this is possible, since RISE has sovereignty. GM says NO, its a bug, and drops the station shields. 0utbreak camps station preventing it from being retaken with a force of about 15 - 25 BS, 4 carriers and 10-20 support, all varying throught the day of course....all day long. RISE sees that this is going to be big and tells everyone that tonight is the night. Four corps out of 26 show up with more than one representative. In total, 7 RISE corps showed their face during the day. These four corps were Ressurection, Sturmgrenadier, Big Advanced Assault and Shadow Gypsies. Total gang spread across the constellation is around 50 to 60. 0utbreak controls the gates as the RISE force is spread around, this makers it very difficult to merge into a viable force. RISE eventually attacks, losing pretty badly. Sob...this isn't good. GM replies again, saying the bug is now known and that the station control will be where it should, in RISE hands. ----------------------------- So, in conclusion, stop accusing RISE of doing something ghey or underhanded. A peition is perfectly valid and bugs happen. I would like to commend the corps that showed up to fight, and I would like to remind everyone that nobody in their right mind fights when they are outmaneuvered and outgunned, its suicide. These four corps do not underestimate the ability 0utbreak brings to the table. They did an excellent job of defending the station, even if it was in vain due to an unknown bug. I am sure RISE will be thinking hard. ----------------------------- That being said, I have just violated a direct order from the ceo of my corp not to post on these forums. To add to that, Ur petion u sent in said Outbreak was exploting, and was not giving the true story to the GM. Gm acted wrongly. The stations have been like this since they relased, havent heard this been wrong before. They figured out they where wrong, sent rise a msg that they could move their ships, then they figured out they relaised they done even more wrong, and gave the station back to rise. How rise have handle this with loggfski and similar stuff is just Sooo bad i feel for rise grunt folk that screamed for pvp hole night, while their fcs order loggofksi :/ So sry if i said annythign towards rise members, alot is great ppl good fun guys. The leadership on other hand.. is another story.
KIATolon Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:47:00 - [53] Originally by: Azriel Dregg Having been involved in about 8 station captures in the last 6-8 months -- here's how I condense the logic (which has been reinforced by about 4-5 petitions due to various reasons): If outpost is held by a corp that is not part of the alliance that holds Sov, it can be shot by anyone. If the outpost is subsequently captured by a corp that is NOT part of the alliance holding sov, it can immidiately be shot by anyone. If the outpost is subsequently captured by a corp that IS part of the alliance holding sov, it cannot be shot by anyone unless sov is changed/holding corp leaves alliance. Yes that's also my understanding, but maybe there's a departure from that?
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:48:00 - [54] Originally by: BirdBleed HERE IS WHAT REALLY HAPPENED !!!! LOL good one BB No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Hans Roaming Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:49:00 - [55] Originally by: vache Station control was re-granted to RISE as we have sovereignty over the system. As you may or may not be aware, a corp can usually take control of a station except in the case where an alliance actually holds sovereightny in that system. When this is the case, only that alliance can fire upon the station. It was explained to me by a GM that it was an exploit that allowed TOXIN to gain control of the station, so in accordance with CCP rules, station control has been returned to RISE. I'm sure this doesn't overly bother TOXIN as they have expressed before that they have no interest in alliance politics or POS warfare. Right so the fact it has been this way since sov came into being doesn't set a precident? Why should who has sov determine who can lock the station, only when the station owner is part of the entity who has sov is and should the station be invulnerable. It should not be classed as a bug and is not an exploit and has been an accepted part of the game for as long as I remember. Having the POS boost the station shields due to sov makes sense, having the ships targetting computers only work due to sov doesn't. This action has been a joke tbh.
RacerX1 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:50:00 - [56] At a personal level the most frustrating thing about it is the amount of time wasted. Everyone seems to understand that, except CCP and the GM's, naturally.
Azriel Dregg Caldari The Taining corp Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:51:00 - [57] Originally by: KIATolon Yes that's also my understanding, but maybe there's a departure from that? CCP never make game logic changes without first informing the player base in a change log. ... Right?
Schneiderr Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:56:00 - [58] it was sort of interesting at some point, when there was only one thread about this topic and you guys where talking nicely. now this is just another unneeded boring read, thanks for that
Laythun Undercover Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:03:00 - [59] I feel sorry for Outbreak wasting so much time, only to have RISE run to the GM's to have the station control reverted. No matter what spin RISE put on it, that is the fact of the matter. They F'd up and got the GM's to fix it for them. Disgusting IMHO Proud Member of the Anti Whine 14
Castor IV 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:04:00 - [60] Originally by: Garramon So, in conclusion, stop accusing RISE of doing something ghey or underhanded. A peition is perfectly valid and bugs happen. What a utter BS, the only possible bug which is debatable is if 0utbreak was allowed to shoot the station or not. And dont forget that the station was in the hands of a neutral entity, not in any alliance. Even so Rise that holds sov over the system still had to shoot the station shields to claim it. Somehow they could not rise to the task and had the station given to them on a silver platter without firing a single shoot at it.
Great Guardian Minmatar Sturmgrenadier Inc	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:06:00 - [61] I can only say that it was a bug used by Outbreak. Multiple GMs confirmed this. Cheers, GG " I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Hah! Attack ships on fire, off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams, glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments.... will
Selpy 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:13:00 - [62] Originally by: Great Guardian I can only say that it was a bug used by Outbreak. Multiple GMs confirmed this. Cheers, GG I can say I'm the King of Canada, but it doesn't make it true just because I said it I'm done posting about this, I'm ****ed off, I want to kill something, not camp a station for 24 hours. [/Selpy] out Look deep into these eyes, they'll be the last thing to see you!
Rasitiln Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:19:00 - [63] wait so this ALLIANCE could not take a station from a CORPERATION, so they petitioned it to a GM because they let the station get taken. Says alot about the alliance if you ask me. --------
Castor IV 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:25:00 - [64] Edited by: Castor IV on 06/10/2006 15:32:48 Edited by: Castor IV on 06/10/2006 15:30:02 I think many with me would like a DEV to comment on what exacly is the bug in the scenario that took place in 9-4. FACTS ARE: 1. A alliance holds sov over the system 2. A now neutral corporation once in the alliance holds the station. Game mechanics say the station is conquereble. Who can lock and fire on the station ? 1. Only the alliance that holds system sov. ? 2. Anyone in the game ? Follow up question, if the answer on the first question is that everyone can shoot the station. 1. What is suppose to happen when the last fired shoot at the station that decides who will claim the station is made by the neutral entity and not the alliance corp that holds sov in the system.? I think the EVE community is entiteled to a DEV response and clarification of game mechanics on this issue.
Kraven Kor Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:36:00 - [65] My only post here is going to simply state that I am tired of fighting a group that needs to cheat, lie, steal, or infiltrate their enemies to win. I know the EVE community thinks thats all super cool and stuff, but SG has been more than willing to engage Outbreak only to have them relay our every word from whoever their spy is. No matter how much we tighten security, no matter how much we keep to command chatter, it doesn't matter. Sturmgrenadier is above that. We fight fair. We don't need spies or corp thieves. Not vs. BoB -- who beat us practically everytime, though we make them pay for it as best we can. And everyone comes to E-O to brag about their victories over us, while failing to mention all the underhanded crap they had to do to achieve it. BoB had to offline our PoS to finally get a foothold in Fountain. We had our corp hangars cleared of most of our standard T1 gear and ammo when we were fighting BoB again in Aridia. And now, Outbreak with their Teamspeak spy. I'd have the utmost respect for Outbreak if I thought they were beating us fair and square. But for them to call shennanigans on us is an insult. And I do call exploit on you guys -- your need to have a teamspeak spy, rather than fight us fair and square -- is proof to me that you will likely sink to any level to win. Strength through Unity, Discipline, and Honor!
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:39:00 - [66] To be honest this needs and official answer/clarification asap. From how it looks atm: Shame on RISE, doesn't look like they're long for this universe. - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
dgfhdfg	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:40:00 - [67] Edited by: dgfhdfg on 06/10/2006 15:40:39 LOL If you can`t win in game, just pettition about that. Who know, maybe one of GM have alt character in your corp.
The Dokter 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:44:00 - [68] Originally by: Kraven Kor My only post here is going to simply state that I am tired of fighting a group that needs to cheat, lie, steal, or infiltrate their enemies to win. I know the EVE community thinks thats all super cool and stuff, but SG has been more than willing to engage Outbreak only to have them relay our every word from whoever their spy is. No matter how much we tighten security, no matter how much we keep to command chatter, it doesn't matter. Sturmgrenadier is above that. We fight fair. We don't need spies or corp thieves. Not vs. BoB -- who beat us practically everytime, though we make them pay for it as best we can. And everyone comes to E-O to brag about their victories over us, while failing to mention all the underhanded crap they had to do to achieve it. BoB had to offline our PoS to finally get a foothold in Fountain. We had our corp hangars cleared of most of our standard T1 gear and ammo when we were fighting BoB again in Aridia. And now, Outbreak with their Teamspeak spy. I'd have the utmost respect for Outbreak if I thought they were beating us fair and square. But for them to call shennanigans on us is an insult. And I do call exploit on you guys -- your need to have a teamspeak spy, rather than fight us fair and square -- is proof to me that you will likely sink to any level to win. Did we blow up your ship one to many times O and you can always petition us, maybe this time you can even get a free shuttle, you know where the button is "It is a good idea to "shop around" before you settle on a doctor. He can kill you."
moroti Yakuza Corp	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:47:00 - [69] You petition instead of fighting and they're the ones playing underhand?! I really don't understand where the exploit is in all of this. I understood that the station was sov protected only when its holding corp was a member of the entity with sov. Not that by holding sov on a system you stop anyone else from shooting it. Pathetic, I'm ashamed to have ever been a part of your alliance :(
SwindonBadger 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:51:00 - [70] Originally by: Kraven Kor My only post here is going to simply state that I am tired of fighting a group that needs to cheat, lie, steal, or infiltrate their enemies to win. I know the EVE community thinks thats all super cool and stuff, but SG has been more than willing to engage Outbreak only to have them relay our every word from whoever their spy is. No matter how much we tighten security, no matter how much we keep to command chatter, it doesn't matter. Sturmgrenadier is above that. We fight fair. We don't need spies or corp thieves. Not vs. BoB -- who beat us practically everytime, though we make them pay for it as best we can. And everyone comes to E-O to brag about their victories over us, while failing to mention all the underhanded crap they had to do to achieve it. BoB had to offline our PoS to finally get a foothold in Fountain. We had our corp hangars cleared of most of our standard T1 gear and ammo when we were fighting BoB again in Aridia. And now, Outbreak with their Teamspeak spy. so tell me did u do a log on trap last night, did you? ......... u say "bring it" alot dont u I'd have the utmost respect for Outbreak if I thought they were beating us fair and square. But for them to call shennanigans on us is an insult. And I do call exploit on you guys -- your need to have a teamspeak spy, rather than fight us fair and square -- is proof to me that you will likely sink to any level to win.
vache Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:52:00 - [71] Edited by: vache on 06/10/2006 15:53:06 Here are the facts that have occured: The corp that held the station for RISE was leaving the alliance to go elsewhere. When they left the alliance officially, they were still the station managers because if they were automaticllay removed and no one installed the station would have no manager, therefore the station could not be conquered by game mechanics because you need someone to take it from. Now this is where the bug comes in. Outbreak fired upon the station before RISE did and somehow claimed it. The reason RISE did not rush to fire first was becasue, according to game mechanics, no entity other than the alliance holding sovereignty of the system (if sovereignty has been established) may fire upon and conquer the station. Upon realising that a corp had taken the station that was not under the umbrella of sovereignty that RISE has in the system, it was petitioned to get it changed back into Rise hands since it was an exploit of a game bug. For a corp that says they want nothing to do with alliance warfare / POS warfare, ye sure are doing alot of complaining. **Edit for spelling _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Vache REZ - Director of Operations. RISE - Minister of External Affairs.
Kraven Kor Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:54:00 - [72] Originally by: moroti You petition instead of fighting and they're the ones playing underhand?! I really don't understand where the exploit is in all of this. I understood that the station was sov protected only when its holding corp was a member of the entity with sov. Not that by holding sov on a system you stop anyone else from shooting it. Pathetic, I'm ashamed to have ever been a part of your alliance :( Actually, ONE of our guys petitioned and half of us are as disgusted about it as you are. Until a GM / Dev responds here, we are just flinging poo at each other (which you guys seem to be much better at.) Strength through Unity, Discipline, and Honor!
Castor IV 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:58:00 - [73] Originally by: vache Edited by: vache on 06/10/2006 15:53:06 Here are the facts that have occured: The corp that held the station for RISE was leaving the alliance to go elsewhere. When they left the alliance officially, they were still the station managers because if they were automaticllay removed and no one installed the station would have no manager, therefore the station could not be conquered by game mechanics because you need someone to take it from. Now this is where the bug comes in. Outbreak fired upon the station before RISE did and somehow claimed it. The reason RISE did not rush to fire first was becasue, according to game mechanics, no entity other than the alliance holding sovereignty of the system (if sovereignty has been established) may fire upon and conquer the station. Upon realising that a corp had taken the station that was not under the umbrella of sovereignty that RISE has in the system, it was petitioned to get it changed back into Rise hands since it was an exploit of a game bug. For a corp that says they want nothing to do with alliance warfare / POS warfare, ye sure are doing alot of complaining. Edit for spelling Now I can understand why you petiotion since it would seem to me from your post you dont no ** how the station/system/sov mechanics work.
Shadar Ishaan Caldari Gang of Four	Posted - 2006.10.06 15:59:00 - [74] Both sides need to shut up. You're making yourselfs look really bad. Sort it out in game with guns, not on the forum with finger pointing. ----------
HuDDy Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:02:00 - [75] Quote: I'd have the utmost respect for Outbreak if I thought they were beating us fair and square. But for them to call shennanigans on us is an insult. Sounds like Toxin are givin u lads a good kickin in fleet fights and your clutchin at straws tbh perhaps there just better at fleet fightin??
Murukan Minmatar The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:09:00 - [76] Lol that so sucks man. Rise show themselves to be so useless they can't take a station back from one corp who had a gang of 30 so they need to petition it. Seriously instead of petitioning to get the station back you should of just disbanded because it's clear any alliance worth more than utter tosh will steam roll you In rust we trust!!!
SwindonBadger 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:12:00 - [77] Originally by: Shadar Ishaan Both sides need to shut up. You're making yourselfs look really bad. Sort it out in game with guns, not on the forum with finger pointing. right....... u know u dont ever make a poast here again, if u understood how much bollax we gone though trying to get a fight! and this whloe pettion thing we are facing was to stop us using guns ud understand a bit ok mmmm
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:13:00 - [78] ( o ) ( o ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Reddari Now just be nice before I start to make life for the BOB devs (yes you have some) harder by exposing their player characters.
MacDuncan Minmatar Unknown Society	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:15:00 - [79] Originally by: vache Edited by: vache on 06/10/2006 15:53:06 Now this is where the bug comes in. Outbreak fired upon the station before RISE did and somehow claimed it. The reason RISE did not rush to fire first was becasue, according to game mechanics, no entity other than the alliance holding sovereignty of the system (if sovereignty has been established) may fire upon and conquer the station. Upon realising that a corp had taken the station that was not under the umbrella of sovereignty that RISE has in the system, it was petitioned to get it changed back into Rise hands since it was an exploit of a game bug. This is simply NOT the way of the CURRENT (at least 'til todays DT!!!) sovereignity....you are simply wrong, sry to say... Because, as it was was told already SEVERAL times: Station holder was not RISE anymore therefore they were not having sov. and THERFORE ANYONE could capture this station...as long as RISE doesn't own the station, no sov. claim could prevent anyone from targeting it... Shame actually on you and your ally for denying current mechanics as long as it suits you! --
Das Yad 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:19:00 - [80] Originally by: vache Edited by: vache on 06/10/2006 15:53:06 1) Now this is where the bug comes in. Outbreak fired upon the station before RISE did and somehow claimed it. The reason RISE did not rush to fire first was becasue, according to game mechanics, no entity other than the alliance holding sovereignty of the system (if sovereignty has been established) may fire upon and conquer the station. 2) For a corp that says they want nothing to do with alliance warfare / POS warfare, ye sure are doing alot of complaining. 1) There was actually a rise gang shooting the station when we got to it the shields was at approx 80-90% when we started shooting it. 2) Innerdrive said to bring the fights rather than camping chokepoints and kill haulers.
Shadar Ishaan Caldari Gang of Four	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:21:00 - [81] Originally by: SwindonBadger Originally by: Shadar Ishaan Both sides need to shut up. You're making yourselfs look really bad. Sort it out in game with guns, not on the forum with finger pointing. right....... u know u dont ever make a poast here again, if u understood how much bollax we gone though trying to get a fight! and this whloe pettion thing we are facing was to stop us using guns ud understand a bit ok mmmm I know exactly how much BS, swin. Both sides aren't doing themselves any favors by flaming this thread. ----------
Burzhuj REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:22:00 - [82] Originally by: vache Edited by: vache on 06/10/2006 15:53:06 Here are the facts that have occured: The corp that held the station for RISE was leaving the alliance to go elsewhere. When they left the alliance officially, they were still the station managers because if they were automaticllay removed and no one installed the station would have no manager, therefore the station could not be conquered by game mechanics because you need someone to take it from. Now this is where the bug comes in. Outbreak fired upon the station before RISE did and somehow claimed it. The reason RISE did not rush to fire first was becasue, according to game mechanics, no entity other than the alliance holding sovereignty of the system (if sovereignty has been established) may fire upon and conquer the station. Soo... You wanna say that when my alliance take stations from our enemy, non-alliance member in our gang can`t fired on station? It exploit? And before that, when coalition LV/V/KOS/CHIMP gang taking our station they are exploiting too? Your signature is too big. Max size is 24000 bytes. Please read the forum rules before reposting.-Tirg http://kb.reunion.net.ru/sign13g3.jpg
Das Yad 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:22:00 - [83] Originally by: Shadar Ishaan Originally by: SwindonBadger Originally by: Shadar Ishaan Both sides need to shut up. You're making yourselfs look really bad. Sort it out in game with guns, not on the forum with finger pointing. right....... u know u dont ever make a poast here again, if u understood how much bollax we gone though trying to get a fight! and this whloe pettion thing we are facing was to stop us using guns ud understand a bit ok mmmm I know exactly how much BS, swin. Both sides aren't doing themselves any favors by flaming this thread. currently popcorn & f5 is providing my entertainment
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:32:00 - [84] And now, RISE have lost the war with XZH falling under -Y- control, from what I understand. Shouldn't be any more worries about a RISE station now, eh? gets his popcorn and a cloak to watch the murder-while-pulling-out shenanigans ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls.
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:34:00 - [85] Originally by: Shadar Ishaan Both sides need to shut up. You're making yourselfs look really bad. Sort it out in game with guns, not on the forum with finger pointing. Shadar, don't you realize that is all we wanted in the first place? Kinda hard to do when external forces continue to shelter your targets. No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
HowlerVonGrowler Caldari Neogen Industries	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:40:00 - [86] Edited by: HowlerVonGrowler on 06/10/2006 16:42:47 Edited by: HowlerVonGrowler on 06/10/2006 16:41:05 Originally by: Das Yad currently popcorn & f5 is providing my entertainment QFT friday afternoons entertainment in work FTW! While I have no love for outbreak, (they have blown up enough stuff of mine when I am running the pipe to empire). I feel they have been hard done by in this situation. I don't know what should have been done with the station, but deffinatley it shouldnt have been handed back to RISE by a GM. Guns should have resolved the situation. These opinions do not represent the opinion or standing of my corp/alliance they are my own. --------------------------------------------- A drone is for life, not just for Christmas.
sakana Purgatorial Janitors Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:47:00 - [87] thats pretty lame of CCP tbh
Lucretia De'Way Amarr Space Law	Posted - 2006.10.06 17:31:00 - [88] OMG have you ever seen such massive whining from any corp that matches Outbreak? I mean they are just amazingly whining, they can fill a whole thread answering and commenting eachother the other whining harder than the first. Don't you guys have a corp channel or forum or something where you can sit and moan all day? You are the most tiring corp I've ever come across. Totally ruining your die-hard-core pvp image in my opinion.
EnglishBob 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 17:46:00 - [89] Looks like this thread is well and truely done. Lock pse, Forum-mod types. ------------------
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.06 17:49:00 - [90] Edited by: Nez Perces on 06/10/2006 17:52:25 Originally by: vache Here are the facts that have occured: The corp that held the station for RISE was leaving the alliance to go elsewhere. When they left the alliance officially, they were still the station managers because if they were automaticllay removed and no one installed the station would have no manager, therefore the station could not be conquered by game mechanics because you need someone to take it from. Now this is where the bug comes in. Outbreak fired upon the station before RISE did and somehow claimed it. The reason RISE did not rush to fire first was becasue, according to game mechanics, no entity other than the alliance holding sovereignty of the system (if sovereignty has been established) may fire upon and conquer the station. Upon realising that a corp had taken the station that was not under the umbrella of sovereignty that RISE has in the system, it was petitioned to get it changed back into Rise hands since it was an exploit of a game bug. For a corp that says they want nothing to do with alliance warfare / POS warfare, ye sure are doing alot of complaining. Edit for spelling Well after reading this it has suddenly become very very clear what the problem is ... RISE have no business whatsoever in 0.0 dealing with the awful complexities of station management. FACTS 1. A corporation does not have to be in an alliance to shoot at a station belonging to another corporation not in an alliance. 2. If a corporation is not in an alliance but owns a station, it matters not who has sovereignty in the system 3. When TOA left RISE without giving the station to a RISE corp, the station no longer belonged to RISE and therefore RISE's sovereignty of the system was no longer part of the equation. 4. Since TOA took the station, it seems that no other RISE corp has shot at that station to gain it for another RISE corp. RISE as if by magic have not had to take the shields down at all. This should never be possible even if Outbreak were not involved in this affair. Conclusion** RISE must have given false information to the GM, in order for him to come up with such a screwed up decision. RISE have now joined the hall of shame to become one of the lamest alliances in the game. You are a disgrace. Outbreak may have got screwed over by a faulty GM decision here, but you RISE, you have guranteed your place in history, "the alliance that never should have been". RISE is not greater than the sum of its parts, it is less.... you were better off as Norad and FA.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.06 17:51:00 - [91] Originally by: Lucretia De'Way OMG have you ever seen such massive whining from any corp that matches Outbreak? I mean they are just amazingly whining, they can fill a whole thread answering and commenting eachother the other whining harder than the first. Don't you guys have a corp channel or forum or something where you can sit and moan all day? You are the most tiring corp I've ever come across. Totally ruining your die-hard-core pvp image in my opinion. Congrats on making yourself look like a tool. If you took a station over and spent hours waiting for a fight to defend it, wouldn't you be **ed if all of a sudden the gm's gave the station to your enemy because the enemy was too big of a noob to take it by force? In rust we trust!!!**
djNME DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:09:00 - [92] Well, Like most **** ups...waiting for gm's to actually respond publicly is like watching a cactus grow another arm. ccp 4tw djNME
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:10:00 - [93] How it works (as I understand it) A station can be shot if A) Nobody has sovereignty. B) If the station is not owned by a corporation in the alliance that has sovereignty. While it would be desirable for it to work like this - 1) You have sovereignty 2) There is no sovereignty And I think many people incorrectly assume it is this way, it's not codable (or isn't easily codable). Simply because it would result in a situation where some players could shoot a station, and others couldn't. --- I've been told this is wrong. Nothing I've seen ingame points to anything different that what I've said, but I'm no expert, so I'm posting here so someone can point out what I've got wrong. I hate not knowing stuff.
maGz The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:21:00 - [94] Originally by: djNME Well, Like most ** ups...waiting for gm's to actually respond publicly is like watching a cactus grow another arm. ccp 4tw djNME QFT... I personally can't be bothered with who petitioned who, who ed what and what got ed. Problem is that CCP has made an absolutely huge up here and they're keeping completely silent. Not sure if I've said this before, but don't be a bunch of bloody pussies; get out, admit you **** up badly and get done with it! ____________ The Priory Killboard
Lucretia De'Way Amarr Space Law	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:22:00 - [95] Originally by: Murukan Congrats on making yourself look like a tool. If you took a station over and spent hours waiting for a fight to defend it, wouldn't you be ****ed if all of a sudden the gm's gave the station to your enemy because the enemy was too big of a noob to take it by force? Well you are the obvious tool here Outbreak-fanboy... I'm not saying it wasn't annoying for them to spend lots of time on something and not get the desired result, this is EVE though it happens a lot. I was commenting on the level Outbreak are whining back and forth to eachother even, what will that accomplish? Problem with game-mechanics? send a mail to CCP or file a petition. Whining like a bunch of sissy schoolgirls on the forum about it? Bad choice.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:24:00 - [96] Originally by: Stamm How it works (as I understand it) A station can be shot if A) Nobody has sovereignty. B) If the station is not owned by a corporation in the alliance that has sovereignty. While it would be desirable for it to work like this - 1) You have sovereignty 2) There is no sovereignty And I think many people incorrectly assume it is this way, it's not codable (or isn't easily codable). Simply because it would result in a situation where some players could shoot a station, and others couldn't. --- I've been told this is wrong. Nothing I've seen ingame points to anything different that what I've said, but I'm no expert, so I'm posting here so someone can point out what I've got wrong. I hate not knowing stuff. First we need some definitions : Sovereignty - Game mechanic whereby an alliance gets reduction in POS fuel usage, and added protection for their Outpost/Conquerable station by putting up POS Station Ownership - Simply the act of having your Corp's name appear as the owner of the station. Sovereignty is NOT a requirement for Station Ownership K.. now we have some definitions... Lets pretend Alliance X has a conquerable station with 2 L POS in system and thus Sovereign Station Ownership. If a Coporation A, brings in dreads and shoots down all POS it can then shoot the station to become the Station Owner, without sovereignty. Likewise if a Corporation Z leaves Alliance X without first handing over the corporation to an Alliance X corporation, Corporation Z would remain the Station Owner, but without Sovereignty. This would allow anybody to shoot at that station wether they are in an alliance or not and wether or not Alliance X has sovereignty in the system. Net effect is this: 1. Sovereignty means that POS can protect your station from being locked.. but only as long as the corporation owning the station is part of the sovereign alliance. 2. Anybody can lock and shoot at a station if the station owner, does not have sovereignty of the system. In the RISE example... TOA relinquished the Sovereignty game mechanics when they left RISE, meaning the station was lockable and claimable by any party, including RISE and Outbreak. There was no breakdown in game mechanics. RISE, probably peeved off that they dropped the ball... petitioned telling the GM some rubbish.. (as they clearly don't understand how sovereignty works)... and the GM made a bad decision. = RISE sucks donkey balls.
Treamer	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:25:00 - [97] Post with your main please. Posting with an unidentified alt in this forum is prohibited, if you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. - Karass Sayfo
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:26:00 - [98] I'm really puzzled now. Your definition exactly matches mine...
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:28:00 - [99] Edited by: Nez Perces on 06/10/2006 18:35:39 Originally by: Treamer ..true stuff.. yeah you got it.. lets imagine if the GM decison was right.. It would effectively mean that nobody would ever have to shoot at a station ever again.. All you would need to do is put up more POS than the other guy... and hey presto you automatically become the station owner... You know perhaps thats how CCP are gonna deal with the LAG.. No more shooting at Stations guys.. thats a thing of the past... !!!!! [edit:typo]
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:32:00 - [100] Originally by: Stamm I'm really puzzled now. Your definition exactly matches mine... yeah actually we may be saying exactly the same thing in the end.... correct me if I am wrong, but you are also saying that the GM decision is wrong... because it would mean that some corps could shoot at a station and others not?
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:36:00 - [101] Disgrace. CEO - Art of War
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:37:00 - [102] Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Stamm I'm really puzzled now. Your definition exactly matches mine... yeah actually we may be saying exactly the same thing in the end.... correct me if I am wrong, but you are also saying that the GM decision is wrong... because it would mean that some corps could shoot at a station and others not? From what I understand neither Stamm's first nor second rules of outposts applied, so the station was shot, should have been able to be shot and no GM involvement should have taken place. (I like that, Stamms rules of outpost ownership, all pod pilots should learn it in Industry 101) I am, however, not convinced that RISE should be flamed here. Petition is the recognised (and only real) way of asking the GMs to look at something if you aren't sure. It perhaps shows that whoever sent the petition was either fed the wrong facts or simply doesn't know enough about it... And the GM who switched the station back over... shouldn't have.
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:37:00 - [103] I feel like playing World of Warcraft. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Reddari Now just be nice before I start to make life for the BOB devs (yes you have some) harder by exposing their player characters.
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:38:00 - [104] Someone cast thier intellect buff on me please, these boars are kicking my ass! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Reddari Now just be nice before I start to make life for the BOB devs (yes you have some) harder by exposing their player characters.
Solwolf Gallente BIG Advanced Assault R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:40:00 - [105] Nez, You're not anywhere near Cloud Ring so it'd be tough for you to judge what's going on. Outbreak is a fine PvP corp, I have a lot of respect for them. They're here bringing the fight to us. Thank you for sharing your opinion though. Solwolf Recruitment
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:42:00 - [106] Originally by: Stamm I am, however, not convinced that RISE should be flamed here. shouldn't have. RISE could have asked for the GM to close the petition down... or simply let Outbreak have the station back. RISE are hiding behind this GM petition to get thier station back unfairly.. thre are no two ways about it. Either they give the station back to Outbreak.. or they deserve what they get. And it very much seems like RISE have completely dispensed with any sense of fairplay or honour, in exchange for that station. Well .. you reap what you sow.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:43:00 - [107] Originally by: Solwolf Nez, You're not anywhere near Cloud Ring so it'd be tough for you to judge what's going on. you don't have to be in Cloud Ring to realise that something has gone horribly wrong ..
Azriel Dregg Caldari The Taining corp Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:45:00 - [108] Originally by: Nez Perces stuff about sovereignty Leaving everything else aside (as I for one do not know what might or might not have been writted down on the petition and subsequent messaging), the key issue here is that Station conquering has worked as described here and in other testimonials on this thread and others for a long time. Thus -- the key question here is 1) Did CCP change how the Conquarable Station capture game logic works or 2) Was the GM incorrect in his/her judgement. If it's 2 -- then fine, the GM should have probed harder to get to bottom of the situation. No matter what might or might not have been put to the petition, the GM should have looked deeper into something as fundemental as station capture. But ok -- mistakes happen to all of us. If it's 1 -- then we need account from CCP of a) when this change was made and b) what the new rules of the game are.
Kodos Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:47:00 - [109] Originally by: EnglishBob Looks like this thread is well and truely done. Lock pse, Forum-mod types. You need to send them an e-mail.
Ban Tier Times of Ancar	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:47:00 - [110] Originally by: Stamm How it works (as I understand it) A station can be shot if A) Nobody has sovereignty. B) If the station is not owned by a corporation in the alliance that has sovereignty. While it would be desirable for it to work like this - 1) You have sovereignty 2) There is no sovereignty And I think many people incorrectly assume it is this way, it's not codable (or isn't easily codable). Simply because it would result in a situation where some players could shoot a station, and others couldn't. --- I've been told this is wrong. Nothing I've seen ingame points to anything different that what I've said, but I'm no expert, so I'm posting here so someone can point out what I've got wrong. I hate not knowing stuff. Well I can only support your question. As far as we understood the sov, as soon as an entity has sov in a system, they are the only ones able to attack the station. So no more station ping pong - setup POS(ses), claim sov and take the station. Obviously the game does not work this way and obviously due to a bug, otherwise RISE would not have been given the station by GMs. So I am afraid, Outbreak has to proofe now, that they can do more than camp a station. Do all the needed logistic stuff (oh this game is more then PvP, I am shocked) to get the station in the way, it was (IMHO) intended. I am looking foward to read about your progress. But as I quoted, I am also looking foward, if someone could explain, where the mistake in understanding sov is. What is sov good for, if not for protecting the station from being ping ponged ? Ban CEO Times-of-Ancar [orange]Your signature is too large. Please see the http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/forumrules.as
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:49:00 - [111] Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Stamm I am, however, not convinced that RISE should be flamed here. shouldn't have. RISE could have asked for the GM to close the petition down... or simply let Outbreak have the station back. RISE are hiding behind this GM petition to get thier station back unfairly.. thre are no two ways about it. Either they give the station back to Outbreak.. or they deserve what they get. And it very much seems like RISE have completely dispensed with any sense of fairplay or honour, in exchange for that station. Well .. you reap what you sow. That's a fair point. I'm saying that the petition by itself is no reason to hate RISE. If they, however, keep the station as a result then it is good reason. Then again - the way sovereignty is they currently CANNOT hand it over to Outbreak. The best thing RISE could do is apologise for the situation, state that they only asked the GMs a question, and petition again and ask the GMs to fix it, if they can.
Argard	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:51:00 - [112] Post with your main please. Posting with an unidentified alt in this forum is prohibited, if you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. - Karass Sayfo

Serathu Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.10.06 18:57:00 - [113] Locked at the OP's request. \| Forum Rules \| CAOD Rules \| CRC Website \| [email protected] \|


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