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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
674
   |
Posted - 2015.02.24 11:40:05 -
[1] - Quote
The Munnin needs some serious tweaking, be it either a rework of the bonuses, or of the slot layout. In its current form it can neither fully support artilleries because of its lacking fitting resources nor can it be used as a competent brawler as it has the inherent weaknesses of the minmatar t2 resist profile combined with a weak armor tanking slot layout.
Artilleries as a weapon system are heavily dependent on utility modules like defensive webifiers or Tracking computers and the Minmatar T2 resist profile is atrocious for armor tanking as you have to plug two major resist holes opposed to the other races which have just one on their main tank profile.
I vote for either moving a lowslot to a midslot, a midslot to a lowslot OR trading the optimal range bonus for a armor resist bonus.
Each of those would put it in a much better place than it is now without destroying the current game balance, just make it a viable option for different playstyles.
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
772
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Posted - 2015.05.13 17:06:07 -
[2] - Quote
Bump because Muninn still bad.
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
667
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Posted - 2015.05.13 17:21:24 -
[3] - Quote
Agreed. munin needs help. More grid, or fixing arty fitting, is the fastest way to fix it IMO.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
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Stitch Kaneland
Trust Doesn't Rust
Triumvirate.
242
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Posted - 2015.05.13 17:40:30 -
[4] - Quote
Agreed. Muninn is in a mostly terrible spot.
You can get somewhat decent resists with dcu, kinetic/explo hardeners. That leaves you 3 slots for plate/reps/dmg mods. Not ideal by any means, but is manageable. Like you said though, using 3-5 slots on tank, means you will do pitiful damage with arty. Not to mention the confliction of arty and armor and only 3 mids. Range control? Whats that...
If the muninn was actually fast, 3 mids might work. like a nomen.
In my opinion there are a few options to make it viable.
-Reduce arty PG (which is needed across multiple minny ships)
-Move a low to a mid, i dont think moving a mid to a low is going to help. Means a rep is out of the question since no CB. Having 4 mids will mean you can brawl with acs, use CB, and dual rep it. Ive tinkered with dual reps and you can get around 900dps tank with it. It just has no range control.
-Change it to a missile ship. Blasphemy i know, but the armor/arty slot layout is just bad design.
Hell fighting nulli when they fielded muninns they used shield doctrine (that died quickly to arty machs). If you put the muninn in an armor role, you get terrible dps/range and okish tank(53k ehp with a 1600 plate). shield doctrine takes advantage of all the lows but gives a **** tank.
Its actually sad that the broadsword is a better arty fleet ship, than the muninn. Hell you can even put a bubble on it with 720s and a cheap implant. Broadsword fit i made had about 100k EHP, and did more damage. Muninn could never get close to that.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
Get Off My Lawn
960
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Posted - 2015.05.13 18:03:40 -
[5] - Quote
The Muninn needs some serious work. It should be viable as a shield tanked artillery ship, but it just is not. My preference has always been to move a high to a mid. That and some reduction in PG usage for 720mm artillery would really spruce up this poor ship.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Stitch Kaneland
Trust Doesn't Rust
Triumvirate.
242
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 18:40:59 -
[6] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:The Muninn needs some serious work. It should be viable as a shield tanked artillery ship, but it just is not. My preference has always been to move a high to a mid. That and some reduction in PG usage for 720mm artillery would really spruce up this poor ship.
Moving a high to a mid could work.. sort of turns into an SFI, which isnt horrible i suppose. Neuts/utility high are really nice to have on minny ships though. Course if we drop a low for a mid, then we have a pretty poor armor tank.
Can we just get a free mid??? 
Joking aside, moving a high to a mid might be the best way at balancing without giving it a ****** armor and shield tank.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Catherine Laartii
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
Heiian Conglomerate
535
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 21:34:07 -
[7] - Quote
High into a mid; same with the wolf. Losing some utility would be a fair tradeoff since the guns don't use any cap and the Muninn is specc'd as a mobile arty platform, and it gives them the option for shield tanking or more ewar. |
Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp.
Mordus Angels
67
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 22:53:29 -
[8] - Quote
Nah matari ships actually have the second best power grids in the game, what needs to happen is both beam lasers and Howitzers need a massive fitting reduction. arty deal the least DPS of any primary weapon system in the game and has the worst application. and beams of their own slew of problems there's absolutely no reason a ship should need 2 ACRs for fit a rack of the weapon system it is bonused for.
anyway yes the munin has issues. and you are 100 percent correct the munin's slot layout is really dumb.
I'd say lose a high for a mid, it should be a dedicated GUN boat, it has 4 bones to projectiles for fucksakes |
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
776
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 11:04:33 -
[9] - Quote
Almost 2 years have passed since the HAC rebalance,
Muninn status: still ****
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Arla Sarain
457
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Posted - 2015.05.30 11:08:43 -
[10] - Quote
****A transcript from a recent fleet ****
Fleet Member: FC can I bring a Muninn?
Fleet FC: I didn't hear that clearly, did someone asked if they could bring a Huginn?
Fleet FC: Yes you can bring a Huginn.
True Story. |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage
RAZOR Alliance
552
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 11:18:50 -
[11] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Agreed. munin needs help. More grid, or fixing arty fitting, is the fastest way to fix it IMO.
Could you actually provide a fit as a baseline for the rebalance?
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
161
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Posted - 2015.05.30 11:43:26 -
[12] - Quote
Hey guys - quick idea.
I hear the thing about "Artillery-based Minnmitar ships can't support artillery!" all the time, and something popped into my mind as a possible way to fix it.
Rework the artillery-based ships so that one of their skill bonuses is % less powergrid for artillery. This way, the high powergrid requirement still prohibits their use on non-bonused ships, but the ships that need them can start fitting them.
I got this idea because of my heavy use of Amarr ships. People often whine about Amarr boats having to waste a skill bonus on just having the laser weapons not consume all the capacitor every salvo. I'm fine with it, and I think the spirit of that idea as described above could work to alleviate some problems with Minnmitar artillery ships.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
304
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Posted - 2015.05.30 13:25:31 -
[13] - Quote
The disclaimer first. I have never tried to fit a Muninn and I am not sure I would know how to select a good fit for that ship and your purpose.
Sine Minmatar is not specifically "artillery" but more a generalized preference for "projectile" weapons I wonder if auto canon might not be a better weapons system for this hull. Looking at the medium sized projectile weapons the auto canon PG requirements are approaching half that of the artillery options.
Is it possible that CCP balanced this hull that way on purpose?
If they gave it the PG for a "proper" artillery fit would that not present a possibility for the next OP ship of the month?
As I said at the beginning never fit one and do not claim to be good at fitting this hull but looking at its slot layout, PG and CPU available and the PG / CPU requirements of artillery versus auto canon this one seems like a no brain required choice to me, use auto canon or suffer from PG related issues.
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Varus Vindicti
Deadly Execution
Twilight Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.05.30 13:30:30 -
[14] - Quote
Completely agree, and while your at it, the graphics are WAAAAAY overdo for an update.
The "pirate galleon" look is so 16th century.... |
Christopher Mabata
The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium
346
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Posted - 2015.05.30 16:07:34 -
[15] - Quote
THe interesting thing about the munnin is i almost never see it solo, but i do see munnin alpha fleets with 650mm artys every so often, the 650's will fit with an MWD and take up roughly 70% of the PWG, but theres still room for a proper fit leftover.
Theory-Crafter, Free Agent, Immortal Space Pirate. Generally Crazy and difficult to understand at times.
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1067
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 16:27:01 -
[16] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Hey guys - quick idea.
I hear the thing about "Artillery-based Minnmitar ships can't support artillery!" all the time, and something popped into my mind as a possible way to fix it.
Rework the artillery-based ships so that one of their skill bonuses is % less powergrid for artillery. This way, the high powergrid requirement still prohibits their use on non-bonused ships, but the ships that need them can start fitting them.
I got this idea because of my heavy use of Amarr ships. People often whine about Amarr boats having to waste a skill bonus on just having the laser weapons not consume all the capacitor every salvo. I'm fine with it, and I think the spirit of that idea as described above could work to alleviate some problems with Minnmitar artillery ships.
That'd be totally cool if artillery damage, tracking and range would be somewhere remotely in line with lasers. Hint, it's not. A double damage bonused hull using artillery still looks pathetic next to lasers with even one bonus.
(Beam-Harbinger and Artycane. Checkthe pun.) |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage
RAZOR Alliance
552
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 18:14:32 -
[17] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:THe interesting thing about the munnin is i almost never see it solo, but i do see munnin alpha fleets with 650mm artys every so often, the 650's will fit with an MWD and take up roughly 70% of the PWG, but theres still room for a proper fit leftover.
An arty fit isn't exactly a solo thing, unless you mean it shoots once then warps off.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
804
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 23:36:04 -
[18] - Quote
Monthly bump. Muninn aint getting better still.
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James Baboli
Novablasters
919
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 00:08:40 -
[19] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:James Baboli wrote:Agreed. munin needs help. More grid, or fixing arty fitting, is the fastest way to fix it IMO. Could you actually provide a fit as a baseline for the rebalance?
Missed this request when it was first made.
If it actually is getting rebalanced into an arty armor ship with current arty, it should be able to fit t2 720s, a t2 MWD and a t2 1600 plate with an RCUII and perfect skils, with enough PG left to fill the other slots with 1 PG modules IMO. To do this, it currently needs a buff of roughly 125 base PG, for a total effect with RCU and maxed skills of 175. This is still very much on the tighter end of HAC fitting, as every other HAC fits with their bonused weapons largest size of long range, large (LSE/1600 plate) buffer mod and a t2 MWD with perfect skills IIRC.
For refrence, this is where I pulled the PG numbers from
[Muninn, derived from]
1600mm Steel Plates II
Reactor Control Unit II
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
50MN Microwarpdrive II
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
[empty high slot]
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
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Kenrailae
Fallen Reich
387
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 00:19:44 -
[20] - Quote
Halp muninn
The Law is a point of View
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
804
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 00:23:29 -
[21] - Quote
Another possibility is to completely rework the concept of the ship and make into a 6/5/4 or 6/6/3 (maybe 5/5/5) shield brawler. It would lose its optimal bonus for a shield boost bonus and to further distinguish it from the vagabond also lose 20m/s base speed.
Finetuning HP, drone bay and fitting values is CCPs job.
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Dmitry Kuvora
WAR TEAM
Flex Point
11
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Posted - 2015.06.26 01:06:09 -
[22] - Quote
some speed + mid + pg please |
HiddenPorpoise
Expendable Miscreants
375
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 01:29:41 -
[23] - Quote
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II
That's the fit I run around in. I feel it's worth pointing out, it doesn't actually have enough PG to fit even a shield tank if you use your utility high. A 500 shield hp buff isn't exactly out of line, nor would be a 2.5% buff to either dps bonus. |
M1k3y Koontz
Respawn Disabled
Initiative Mercenaries
764
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 01:30:16 -
[24] - Quote
Low slot to mid slot, simplest change that would make it actually remotely viable.
Four mids to shield tank, it's EVE 101. And nobody armor tanks a Muninn unless they're awful and in a Zealot fleet (and I haven't even heard of a Zealot fleet since the HAC balance, thanks Ishtars!)
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
|
Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter
Absolute Zero.
885
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 07:33:35 -
[25] - Quote
Let me post this picture twit brent has made since I think it's somewhat relevant. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1459
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 07:45:40 -
[26] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Low slot to mid slot, simplest change that would make it actually remotely viable.
Four mids to shield tank, it's EVE 101. And nobody armor tanks a Muninn unless they're awful and in a Zealot fleet (and I haven't even heard of a Zealot fleet since the HAC balance, thanks Ishtars!)
Or a high to a mid and more grid to make fitting arty not ridiculous (and the loss of the utility high limits AC builds abusing the grid for a neut up there) and keeps lows for projection/DPS.
Or they could just fix arty fitting in general, that'd be nice. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
344
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 14:29:41 -
[27] - Quote
afkalt wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Low slot to mid slot, simplest change that would make it actually remotely viable.
Four mids to shield tank, it's EVE 101. And nobody armor tanks a Muninn unless they're awful and in a Zealot fleet (and I haven't even heard of a Zealot fleet since the HAC balance, thanks Ishtars!) Or a high to a mid and more grid to make fitting arty not ridiculous (and the loss of the utility high limits AC builds abusing the grid for a neut up there) and keeps lows for projection/DPS. Or they could just fix arty fitting in general, that'd be nice.
Fixing arty fitting would resolve a lot of issues with minmatar. No ship stats have to be modified, no extra grid/cpu to be abused by ac fits. It would only affect arty fits, as intended.
I still find it amusing that a broadsword does the muninns fleet role better. Same bonuses, same # of turrets, just falloff instead of optimal, and lose tracking. But you can get the same alpha and double the tank.
That being said, an extra mid is pretty damn important for the muninn to be viable. To keep it flexible , moving utility high to mid might be best. Though it would just be a repackaged SFI at that point i suppose. Can we get a free mid plz? I know.. no chance in hell.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
739
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 17:06:01 -
[28] - Quote
Supported.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1145
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 18:34:53 -
[29] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:afkalt wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Low slot to mid slot, simplest change that would make it actually remotely viable.
Four mids to shield tank, it's EVE 101. And nobody armor tanks a Muninn unless they're awful and in a Zealot fleet (and I haven't even heard of a Zealot fleet since the HAC balance, thanks Ishtars!) Or a high to a mid and more grid to make fitting arty not ridiculous (and the loss of the utility high limits AC builds abusing the grid for a neut up there) and keeps lows for projection/DPS. Or they could just fix arty fitting in general, that'd be nice. Fixing arty fitting would resolve a lot of issues with minmatar. No ship stats have to be modified, no extra grid/cpu to be abused by ac fits. It would only affect arty fits, as intended. I still find it amusing that a broadsword does the muninns fleet role better. Same bonuses, same # of turrets, just falloff instead of optimal, and lose tracking. But you can get the same alpha and double the tank. That being said, an extra mid is pretty damn important for the muninn to be viable. To keep it flexible , moving utility high to mid might be best. Though it would just be a repackaged SFI at that point i suppose. Can we get a free mid plz? I know.. no chance in hell.
Lemme contrast that for you!
HACs that have a utility high:
Vagabond (has active tank bonus)
Sacriledge (has resist bonus)
Muninn (has nothing)
(Coincidentally, those are the three *useless* HACs)
Now while the vaga's bonus is pretty dumb and the ship generally useless since it can't use blasters/pulses, scrap that and take a look at the sacriledge! Has one more mid, but one less lowslot. A resist bonus is about as good or better than an extra EANM. So basically a muninn is a sacriledge that mustn't use missiles but is stuck with projectiles, can't fit artillery and armortank, and has less dps than the sacriledge once fitting ACs. It then proceeds to effectively have one less slot, less drones, less cap.
CCPlease. It's like comparing a hyperion and a maelstrom.
Edit: Should mention the Sac is all but bad, had fights 1v5 and worse with the sac tanking 2 RHML BS without a sweat. So minmatar HACs are the things that really, really suck it hard. |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots
Black Legion.
316
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Posted - 2015.06.26 19:42:11 -
[30] - Quote
Sac is getting an indirect boost with the next patch.
That being said, not even Black Legion flies Muninns anymore. I remember when they used to be our go-to fast response ship. |
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