So what are all those fleets I see entirely comprised of Zealots and Guardians, or Abaddons and Guardians, or Armageddons and Guardians? Or what about all those Curses you see neuting out all those Archons and Aeons and Avatars? Are they only in my imagination?

1: In most classes, the top-tier Amarr ships are tougher and do at least comparable (if not vastly superior) turret dps compared to other races.
2: Take a look at the list of top 20 ships used in PVP. The vast majority of them are shield tankers, which lasers cut through with ease.
3: You have cap problems, yes. But you also have near-infinite 'ammo', near-instant crystal switching, and very high dps even at long ranges, perversely outperforming other race's long range guns with your short-range guns at the same ranges.
4: Amarr are not the slowest. Caldari are. Amarr have the most armour hitpoints, the best armour resistance profile, and many ships have resistance bonuses. You also have very good signature radii, beaten only by Minmatar. As a race, the survivability of your ships is second to none.

Bitching about your strengths, which you manage to turn into weaknesses...

1: Scorch is overpowered. No other race gets damage projection as good as Amarr ships when using their short-ranged weapons. A minor tracking penalty is a non-issue when using high-tracking short-range guns.
2: One word: Abaddon.
3: Just stop whining.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. The problem is that your opinion is based on total crap.

No, because you don't know what you're talking about.

Amarr is one of the most heavily used races in PvP fleet combat for very good reasons. There is nothing wrong with Amarr from a PvP standpoint. They excel in some areas, and not in others, just like they're supposed to.

I'm not a PvPer, but I can realistically agree with the EM/Therm problem. None of the other races are put at such an unbelievable disadvantage against Angels and Guristas than the laser-toting Amarr.

At this point, since I am not effectively cross-trained into another race -- it is easier for me to just blatantly dismiss any Angel or Guristas missions I am given.

I'm not a PvPer, but I can realistically agree with the EM/Therm problem. None of the other races are put at such an unbelievable disadvantage against Angels and Guristas than the laser-toting Amarr.

At this point, since I am not effectively cross-trained into another race -- it is easier for me to just blatantly dismiss any Angel or Guristas missions I am given.

Frigates: Punisher, Vengeance, Crusader, Malediction, Purifier, Anathema, Sentinel

Cruisers: Arbitrator, Sacrilege, Zealot, Curse, Guardian, Devoter, Legion

Battlecruiser: Harbinger, Damnation, Oracle

Battleships: Abaddon, Armageddon

All good ships that do what they are ment to do and do it well. I fly many of them and fight against all of them a fair amount and in a good pilots hands they can be deadly.

True most CTA fleets I see are either armour BS or AHAC's these are very heavily Amarr biased using Abaddons, Armageddons and the preferred AHAC being a Zealot so I believe there must be something to EM/Thermal damage. As to PvE can't say, only do it once in a blue moon so although I'm told by friends that do Incursions that Navy Armageddons are the way to go in armour fleets and the dps a standard doctrine Abaddon or Armageddon can put out in a fleet fight is well worth the effort as is that of a Zealot.

So all in all I'll have to say from my own limited experience and that of people I fly and fight with I believe you are mistaken.

While I appreciate you backing up your disagreement with information, I challenge the idea that top tier Amarr ships out dps with turrets.

A hurricane verse a harby, the cane does way more dps. Blaster myrm with drones, out dps a harby as well.

A triple trimarked and plated Amarr BC is far slower than any Caldari vessel of equal size. Surviability goes to Caldari not Amarr. Nobody has a better tank then them

somebody mentioned that the amar ships arent actaully the slowest, but i'd liek to point out that once you've fit a plate or two, they are rather sluggish.

My double plated Abaddon only goes like 90m/s without its MWD active....thats sloooow

[quote=Samillian]Frigates: Punisher, Vengeance, Crusader, Malediction, Purifier, Anathema, Sentinel

Cruisers: Arbitrator, Sacrilege, Zealot, Curse, Guardian, Devoter, Legion

Battlecruiser: Harbinger, Damnation, Oracle

Battleships: Abaddon, Armageddon

All good ships that do what they are ment to do and do it well. I fly many of them and fight against all of them a fair amount and in a good pilots hands they can be deadly.

True most CTA fleets I see are either armour BS or AHAC's these are very heavily Amarr biased using Abaddons, Armageddons and the preferred AHAC being a Zealot so I believe there must be something to EM/Thermal damage. As to PvE can't say, only do it once in a blue moon so although I'm told by friends that do Incursions that Navy Armageddons are the way to go in armour fleets and the dps a standard doctrine Abaddon or Armageddon can put out in a fleet fight is well worth the effort as is that of a Zealot.

So all in all I'll have to say from my own limited experience and that of people I fly and fight with I believe you are mistaken.

EFT dps is not the same as real dps. An AC Hurricane will be fighting in falloff 90% of the time, while a Harbinger can just scorch it to death from 30 or 40km away, not to mention the 50m3 drone bay. A blaster-fit Myrmidon will melt a Harbinger if it gets into its 2km optimal range, but the Harbinger again has far more range.

There is no point comparing the tank of any other BC to a Drake. The Drake might tank better, but if you're being outdamaged by it, you should just give up now.

y.

2. Some Amarr ships can fit a decent buffer. The issue is, the ships I speak of all have pathetic dps, which in turn limits their role in a fleet to bait ship. Wow, that's a fun role right there. The ships I speak of are the Prophecy and Maller. Ya, I bet those ships strike fear into your heart when they pop in on the field, eh? Most fleets will completely ignore them in a fight anyway, making their bait role pointless. Not to mention, Caldari does the tank better and Minmatar can fit damn near the same buffer if they sacrifice their speed. So no real benefit here.

Nerf Minmatar.
All races are now more-or-less balanced.
\o/

Abaddon: Buffer of 138 with out fleet bonus, 149k with 826 dps with med drones and scorch. 45 km opt.

Geddon: with a Bufffer of 95k without fleet bonus 101k with and delivers 1058 DPS.

Poc: nice sniper fleet bs can muster a decent tank and dps. With megas, 99k ehp with 574 dps w / scorch at 62km opt.



The Hacs are strong in their own right solo or gang. Caldari Hacs....lulz. Gallante only has one, Ishtar and that is pretty much a solo boat or small gang.

Recons deliver good dps, nuets and very effective in gangs and especially solo. In which the Caldari version pretty much suck solo.

BC's : the Harbi s a decent boat.

Crusiers: Arbi is flat out a great boat for gang, Maller is tougher than ****.

Frigs: they are frigs, point mwd and your done, what more do you want on a frig any way.

So yeah i am not seeing what the issue is really.

The punisher struggles from the same issue the maller and prophecy does. The Abbadon is in its own class because its bonuses are completey different than all the other ships. the legion is known to be the worst t3 ship in the game. The geddon has only 3 mid slots, nuf said. And the rest you mention are t2. With the exception of the curse, the others can all be easily overshadowed by any other races t2 hulls

I'm not a PvPer, but I can realistically agree with the EM/Therm problem. None of the other races are put at such an unbelievable disadvantage against Angels and Guristas than the laser-toting Amarr.

At this point, since I am not effectively cross-trained into another race -- it is easier for me to just blatantly dismiss any Angel or Guristas missions I am given.

Hybrid weaponry has the same issue against npc factions with high kinetic resists. It's not like only lasers have that issue.

the sheer damage modifier of blasters fully make up for it

lol.

a Harbinger can just scorch it to death from 30 or 40km away

1600mm plate Harb that still tops 900 DPS

I would rather have kinetic therm then em therm. Kinetic therm is more effective against a broader range of tank types. Not to mention the sheer damage modifier of blasters fully make up for it

Harbi is not a decent boat in comparison to the other top tiers which all out perform it, the maller may be tougher than **** but its not gonna kill a damn thing and nobody will ever bother shooting at it, arbi is the only viable cruiser, all the frigs suck cept the navy slicer, HACs is the only thing you mentioned without an issue.

Oh the abbadon is badass too.

Whats funny? Blasters are the most powerful turret when it comes to damage in the game. Did you not know that?

Lol. First thing, just stop. You obviously are not a very seasoned PvP pilot so please reconsider embarassing yourself further in this debate.

Second, go back to shooting your rock.

Please feel free to enlighten me oh great one on where what I said was inaccurate

I was referring to damage not range or speed of the ship in question. Both of those were fixed by the way and damage was increased

hmm... no they weren't. the fix CCP made was akin to use a bandaid to patch a gunshot wound.

a nasty, nasty 12-gauge explosive pellet gunshot wound.

Nerf Minmatar.
All races are now more-or-less balanced.
\o/

This. Seriously I'm not overly pleased with Caldari at the moment and Gallente still feels....weak. I think that is a result of one race being very powerful. Minmatar need a SLIGHT nerf.

A 25 percent damage increase 50 percent cap decrease 10 percent tracking increase and speed and inertial modifications is a bandaid?

5% for blaster damage and 10% for rail damage iirc. wish it was 25%

So what are all those fleets I see entirely comprised of Zealots and Guardians, or Abaddons and Guardians, or Armageddons and Guardians? Or what about all those Curses you see neuting out all those Archons and Aeons and Avatars? Are they only in my imagination?

1: In most classes, Amarr ships are tougher than their tier-for-tier counterparts, and in some cases do vastly superior dps.
2: Take a look at the list of top 20 ships used in PVP. The vast majority of them are shield tankers, which lasers cut through with ease. The rest are Amarrian.
3: You have cap problems, yes. But you also have near-infinite 'ammo', near-instant crystal switching, and very high dps even at long ranges, perversely outperforming other race's long range guns with your short-range guns at the same ranges.
4: Amarr are not the slowest. Caldari are. Amarr have the most armour hitpoints, the best armour resistance profile, and many ships have resistance bonuses. You also have very good signature radii, beaten only by Minmatar. As a race, the survivability of your ships is second to none.

Bitching about your strengths, which you manage to turn into weaknesses...

1: Scorch is overpowered. No other race gets damage projection as good as Amarr ships when using their short-ranged weapons. A minor tracking penalty is a non-issue when using high-tracking short-range guns.
2: One word: Abaddon.
3: Just stop whining.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. The problem is that your opinion is based on total crap.

This. Seriously I'm not overly pleased with Caldari at the moment and Gallente still feels....weak. I think that is a result of one race being very powerful. Minmatar need a SLIGHT nerf.

Punisher is just as good as the Merlin and Rifter.

Malediction is one of the most popular versatile interceptors.

Arbitrator/pilgrim/curse pretty much the all around best cruiser hulls in the game.

Harbinger is a perfectly competitive BC, absolution/damnation most durable command ships in the game.

Amarr has the best battleship hulls in the game hands down.

Archon is comparable only to the Thanatos.

Lasers are the most versatile and convenient weapon system in the game.

Agree with u on the curse but harby would rarly be a match for a myrm, drake or cane on it's own. And a punisher is garbage. The abbadon is good, the geddons mid slots destroy it. Apoc is a pve ship not that great to be honest

You are quite wrong.

Care to explain why? Cane would out manuver and tare a harby to shreds with its superior dps and similar tank.
Myrm would be dual repped and a harby would not scratch its tank before its drones shred it.
Drakes tank is just too massive even with em therm, compared to the relativly light tank a harby would be built with and at the end of the day the drake would outlast as it always does.

The punisher has the same problem as the maller and prophecy, no damage, poor manuverability.
Geddon can not be fit right and requires fleet support to shine. Mid slots are a huge deal in pvp, especially on a battleship.
Curse and baddon are both beasts, I admitt to this

You are bad.

/thread

Care to explain why? Cane would out manuver and tear a harby to shreds with its dps.
Myrm would be dual repped and a harby would not scratch its tank before its drones shred it.
Drakes tank is just too massive even with em therm, compared to the relativly light tank a harby would be built with and at the end of the day the drake would outlast as it always does.

The punisher has the same problem as the maller and prophecy, no damage, poor manuverability.
Geddon can not be fit right and requires fleet support to shine. Mid slots are a huge deal in pvp, especially on a battleship.

If you've been paying attention as you read the topic, you'd know why.

The entire time the Cane is in range to shoot the Harb, the Harb is in range to shoot the cane and can track it as well as out DPS it (not to mention if the Cane is MWDing around, it's taking MORE damage due to sig radius increase). Myrm, if dual repped, would more than likely cap out before the Harb or it just wont be doing a lot of DPS period. A drake's tank would have to sacrifice all the DPS modules to be able to weather a Harb's DPS. if any BC has the best chance at killing a drake, it's the Harb. Even if the Drake tanks for just em/therm, it'll be close.

The Punisher doesn't need crazy DPS to be good. It has the best frig tank by far and is able to outlast the other frigs. It doesn't need to be fast, it just needs to track the opponent, which it does.

The Maller isn't really suffering as it gives it the ability to fit respectable DPS with respectable Tank for a cruiser.

The Prophecy does suffer form it, but who cares, you shouldn't be putting lasers on it anyways.

Geddon is a massive gank boat, even with only 3 mids, you're still doing more DPS with more EHP than most other battleships can muster simultaneously.

You think a harby pumps out more dps than a cane? Are you smoking crack? Check the ship bonuses, two damage bonuses compared to the harbys one. Not to mention the cane is using explosive ammo which hurts the harbys tank more than the harby em therm will hurt his. Get your facts straight bud.

As for the myrm, have you ever fought a myrm? They have dual repps and cap boosters, they can run their tank a lot longer than a harbys tank can hold up.

By your post I find it hard to believe you pvp at all. And maller and respectable dps don't even fit into the same sentence. I wont even bother to comment further, you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Hellen you are an idiot and post with your main so we can all laugh at your combat record and see you have no idea what you are talking about.

The Arbi is one of the best T1 cruises in the game. The Harbinger is awesome, great DPS projection and decent speed. Shield Harbys are actually kinda popular too. Heavy pulse fits either shield tanked or 800mm plate fit are really useful against kiting Canes. Always carry a cap injector on armor fit ones. The Absolution is a Raging Beserker on the battlefield. The Geddon has the best bang for your buck with the Domi. The Apoc can Scorch 600 DPS out to 80km and be one of the best anti support roles there is. The Abbadon is the best Tier 3 BS hands down.

Guardians Curses and Zealots are all great. Man I can go on and on.

OP is an idiot

Respectable DPS for a cruiser

Also, I'd love to see a Hurricane get close to 900 DPS.

You can't have it all, Amarr does fantastic in fleet pvp and some of them do good in gangs/solo. In pve they are still very good but run into damage type issues. Thing is that the abaddon/paladin solve that with massive dps (if people would just stop fitting like crap, abaddon does 800 dps at 60km and over 1100 dps at 25km).

Other races also have issues apart from... Minmatar. Thing is that Amarr has less issues than Gallente and Caldari and while I agree that some ships in the Amarr line feel weak, the same goes for other races. Only thing I'd change is make the prophecy and maller missile ships and all would be fine.

TL;DR yes you point out issues Amarr has but somehow you forget that other races also have issues, different issues ofcourse but still. So, deal with it.

Hellen STFU if you dont know most PVP Canes are shield tanked kiting setups.

OMG you are spewing crap.

Canes with nuets are armor brawlers they need to get within 12 km to use med nuets. Those will present problems for a Harbys if they get close enough. A shield cane will get eaten by a harby as they both fight in the same range and the harby does more DPS at that range and better tank

Amarr is pvp goodness. In hands of capable pilot amarr BS outperforms many other ships.

Amarr HACs are second to none, amarr Command are very good.

Before patch eagle sucks, deimos sucks, astrate, eos - waste of time, vulture sucks, vagabond and munin are situational.

All caldari ships suck in PvP, all except falcon, which doesn't suck because of cloak. Drake is semi decent PvP slowboat, suitable for outliving the enemy. That's it.

Abaddon is the shining glory of all PvP fleets.

1. I fully agree here, though this has been said countless times before. Other weapons systems get bonuses to enhance them, amarr get bonuses to make the weapons viable, this is not right.

2. Being limited to em/thermal damage is fine imo. The ratio between the two types needs some slight tweaking on some crystals however (slightly more thermal, slightly less em to compensate).

3. Cap use can be annoying, but it used to be balanced since lasers were so powerful. Minor tweaking here as well, nothing major needed.

4. No comment here, as everyone knows this already.

Let's talk about their strengths.

1. My opinion of scorch is this, lasers with scorch are good. Lasers without scorch, are just decent. Take what you will from that.

2. This goes back to one of your previous points, about wasted ship bonuses to reduce laser cap use. Simply tweaking cap use and changing amarr ships to have a second *real* bonus would add a huge amount of needed variety. Yes please.

3. Switching crystals on the fly is very useful, though I would gladly give it up if it meant the other aspects of amarr ships/weapons were made more viable.

That being said, several of the top tier t1 ships within the amarr lineup struggle against all races, not just minnies. A harby will never beat a well fit myrm and a maller will never beat a well fit thorax.

Don't feed the trolls.
If some idiot can't be constructive ignore it!

Amarr is the only race that fit ACs on their ships more then any other race excluding Minnies, that's a fact.
Some newbs whine that ACs are not good and lasers are way better and they would fit lasers if their ships were friendly on equipping them. Like having "reduction in laser capacitor bonus". Well this is a bullsh*t.
I lived in null for like 4-5 years and I know what ships people usually use.
Even when everyone was crying that Hybrids suck there was a lot of Gallente ships flying around with those sucky hybrids.
Moreover 90% of those ships you pop up use hybrids. When you pop up some Amarr ship there is a good chance you will see ACs on it.

Basically statistics speaks for itself and obviously those who say lasers are fine never flown any Amarr ship or just a sucky troll.

Does anyone else agree with me?

Read my lips :P

Amarr is Op at FLEET COMBAT, you know that, I know that we all know that. The whole approach amarr has (armor tanked, slowish, ridiculous range and dps) means it's a beast in fleet combat and less good at solo pvp. Again, apart from a very few ships (omen needs PG and as said maller/proph need to be missile based) there is nothing wrong with amarr, just don't try to use them in a scenario that they don't do well in. All races (bar Minnie) have this issue.

There's things Amarr isn't good at, which is GOOD and as it SHOULD be. Go talk to a megathron pilot about how well he does in fleets, or Caldari BS pilot for that matter. Have a look as the dps a caracal does and the limitations the Moa has or how about the Eagle or Cerb. Gallente STILL isn't any good and Amarr is STILL much better in most respects (mostly due to silly range on pulses/scorch).

Stop complaining about the few things Amarr isn't good at because they're damn well OP in everything else and there's 2 other races who have far more issues.

No

Lets put it this way, Harby gets about 21km with scorch, doing about xray damage. Blaster ferox with long range t2 ammo gets about 15ish km and does comparible damage. Gallente can hit at about 11 or 12 with long range ammo but do more damage than scorch at that range by far. I don't see how amarr is doing much thats better. Scorch gets decent range, but the damage is not that great due to the damage type.

This thread is plagued by far too many EFT warriors.

I get your point, man, I really do. I know Amarr are bad solo, but I don't see how they are that great in a fleet either. So scorch gives them decent range. Caldari missle boats have twice the range and at scorch range aren't doing much difference in terms of dps. Well I mean flight time does hurt the dps a bit, but its still pretty similar.

Lets put it this way, Harby gets about 21km with scorch, doing about xray damage. Blaster ferox with long range t2 ammo gets about 15ish km and does comparible damage. Gallente can hit at about 11 or 12 with long range ammo but do more damage than scorch at that range by far. I don't see how amarr is doing much thats better. Scorch gets decent range, but the damage is not that great due to the damage type.

the only way I can see amarr ships being useful is to have 10 baddons warp in using scorch to alpha ****. But if thats the only way to make use of their ships, thats pretty limited as far as playing goes

Check the base shield/armor damage statistics. It seems that lasers do half the base damage to armor when compared to shields and that is, imho, the biggest drawback when it comes to these lovely beams of death.

Does anyone else agree with me?

Basically You can't have everything you want. Noone can.

I'm a moron