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Serene Repose
2502
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Posted - 2015.03.26 18:46:50 -
[61] - Quote
Zura Namee wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:How exactly would you have the server partition grids? Uncharted Waters, an NES game with a map depicting all of Earth, the whole globe, has to break that map into loadable sections (considering how big Earth is). With a game that primitive they didn't seem to require a system that is exploitable, or one that can be reformed and reshaped by the player. Are you saying ten years later in technology (when EVE was born) something about the advancement of technology forced us to revert to something more primitive than an NES game? I think not. Nice try. This methodology was known years before EVE was developed. Are you seriously implying a singleplayer game with load cells is remotely comparable to what EVE is doing? Generalize much?
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Tuttomenui II
Aliastra Gallente Federation
277
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Posted - 2015.03.26 18:48:27 -
[62] - Quote
It has to be said that that manual was made by the Original Goons. Original Goons were so much funnier than the New Goons. The New Goons are not the Original Goons. Even if they happen to have some members in common with the Original Goons.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2284
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Posted - 2015.03.26 18:51:52 -
[63] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:How exactly would you have the server partition grids? Player focused merging grids
A can see B. B can see A and C. C can see B. A cannot see C and C cannot see A.
Server creates a grid around each ship. If two ships grids overlap then server merges the grid into a new grid encompassing both ships and so on.
Benefits.
Server- Warping into a battle the server doesn't need to load every ship in the battle, only the ships that are in range of the players grid. Tactical - Reduces alpha effect. Makes mobility important. Makes flanking possible. Creates a fog of war effect.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
754
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Posted - 2015.03.26 19:01:42 -
[64] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Generalize much?
man, you really aren't eager to put the least bit of thought into this, why on earth did you even make a thread |
Paranoid Loyd
4392
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Posted - 2015.03.26 19:06:23 -
[65] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Generalize much?
man, you really aren't eager to put the least bit of thought into this, why on earth did you even make a thread Stop taking the bait m8
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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2Sonas1Cup
54
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Posted - 2015.03.26 19:08:55 -
[66] - Quote
You need to understand what is an exploit.
Exploit: Doing something that makes the game do something that isnt supposed to.
NOT an exploit: Inteligently using game mechanics.
CCP knows full well the grid works like this, he designed it, coded it intentionally to work like this.
Goons arent doint anything that CCP doesnt know about their own game. Like, exploiting a bug in the code.
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Lugia3
The Southern Gentleman's Social Club Psychotic Tendencies.
1492
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Posted - 2015.03.26 19:09:13 -
[67] - Quote
You have to be dumb to get killed by grid-fu nowadays. It was practical in fleet fights back in the day because there was no easy way to signal for reps. Some groups would set up their grid and hovered at the edge, where people in need of reps would boat off grid to take a breather with the logies.
Today logies have to be on grid because of the numbers meta. **** gets instapopped nowadays if you don't have your logies lock it right away. And we have broadcast/watchlist.
"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Remove Sov!
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Mag's
the united
19170
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Posted - 2015.03.26 21:30:26 -
[68] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:As long as players can manipulate the actual shape of the playing board, and in a way that is virtually undetectable with certainty, the game is rigged. You cannot believe what you're looking at. What is Grid Fu? Take some time and read this. GRID FU A Practical Manual (By Goonwaffles)How is this not an exploit? Hmmm? Where have you been for the past few years? Talk about old Eve news and this topic will come up.
Also, how is it an exploit? (Bearing in mind CCP have said it isn't.) But then facts don't seem to fit well into your narrative, do they?
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
3485
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Posted - 2015.03.26 22:36:37 -
[69] - Quote
Posts like this one are what happens when the "I'm so good at this game" crowd encounters someone who actually understands EVE's mechanics enough to use them to their advantage. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
762
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Posted - 2015.03.26 22:53:21 -
[70] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:How exactly would you have the server partition grids? Uncharted Waters, an NES game with a map depicting all of Earth, the whole globe, has to break that map into loadable sections (considering how big Earth is). With a game that primitive they didn't seem to require a system that is exploitable, or one that can be reformed and reshaped by the player. Are you saying ten years later in technology (when EVE was born) something about the advancement of technology forced us to revert to something more primitive than an NES game? I think not. Nice try. This methodology was known years before EVE was developed. I didn't ask you what another game does. I asked you how you would have EVE partition its grids. Please tell me how you'd adapt this supposedly superior partitioning scheme to EVE. I'd be glad to tell you how I'd break it. |
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1866
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Posted - 2015.03.26 22:56:35 -
[71] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Serene Repose wrote:As long as players can manipulate the actual shape of the playing board, and in a way that is virtually undetectable with certainty, the game is rigged. You cannot believe what you're looking at. What is Grid Fu? Take some time and read this. GRID FU A Practical Manual (By Goonwaffles)How is this not an exploit? Hmmm? Where have you been for the past few years? Talk about old Eve news and this topic will come up. Also, how is it an exploit? (Bearing in mind CCP have said it isn't.) But then facts don't seem to fit well into your narrative, do they? not gonna say gridfu is an exploit, its not, its just players working creatively with measures implemented to cover the game's deficiencies (like the icky icky that would be 10Mm radius battlefields, etc)
but on the other hand, finding a way to more fairly work grid mechanics so that it cant be used to benefit of either side would be most welcome. |
Serene Repose
2502
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Posted - 2015.03.27 00:48:41 -
[72] - Quote
SO! Some very good answers. Some rather nasty, uncalled for flaming, too. But, hey. This is GD after all.
The word "exploit" of course is the key word, or trip word. How it's come to be used, and what it actually is - between the two - is where you find your swamp. The whole purpose of playing a game to win is to exploit the parameters of the game toward that end. The one who does it best wins. Any winners in EVE? Well. We like to say "no," but we know it's "yes and no." It depends on the specific scenario. Nobody that splashes an opponent 1 v 1 PvP is going to say they lost, eh?
Had the question been, "How could this Grid Fu be fair?" we'd get an interesting set of responses as well, I'm sure. The greater question there would be, "Who said EVE is fair?" Then, we'd be open to all kinds of philosophical questions, not the least of which would be, "How could you take pride in winning an unfair competition (that is, unless you're the one against whom the table is tilted?")
Grid Fu is a digital example of tilting the table, however. I was gratified to see how many people readily admitted that. For me personally you have to view me as a chess and basketball player. I'm steeped in the "all things being equal" as far as the court (or board), the number of folks on the teams, the equal height of the goals, what do you bring to the game to advance the score? That's what you take pride in - that ability. I was equally gratified to see the posts championing that time-honored concept of skill and knowledge being the deciding factor, rather than the ability to tilt the floor, or raise your opponent's goal without being "caught."
Welp. Kentucky plays in an hour. Go Wildcats! Good luck to your team if you have a dog in this hunt - until it faces mine, that is.
Thanks for the well-considered and sincere responses. Thanks for the flames, too. After all. It is GD!
TYVM. Have a nice day!
(Oh, and please. Continue the back and forth if you have more to say.)
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1164
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Posted - 2015.03.27 00:53:13 -
[73] - Quote
I have seen grind manipulation in action recently.
Brawling fleet undocked and pushed kiting fleet across a grid line. They were split in half logi unable to repair and fleet subsequently shredded.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
SOV is stagnant because Low Sec is not the next step from High Sec and a viable place to grow alliances to the point they can challenge Null alliances.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2681
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Posted - 2015.03.27 01:03:50 -
[74] - Quote
Tuttomenui II wrote:It has to be said that that manual was made by the Original Goons. Original Goons were so much funnier than the New Goons. The New Goons are not the Original Goons. Even if they happen to have some members in common with the Original Goons.
well you see a lot of the leaders are the same, a lot of the guys are the same, they all come from the same place on the internet but its totally not the same guys guys. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
46
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Posted - 2015.03.27 01:14:02 -
[75] - Quote
I helped grid-fu for a friend. Stole 4 POCOs drops right out from under the noses of a fleet. Their transport sat there for 15 mins trying to anchor the gantry...each time
I have no doubt that they would have said that grid-fu was a Xploit. If they had a clue it was used against them.
My Troll-Fu needs work though |
P3ps1 Max
Hedion University Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2015.03.27 02:33:44 -
[76] - Quote
All I got was blah blah blah and more blah. |
Vyl Vit
1150
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Posted - 2015.03.27 02:33:57 -
[77] - Quote
I hope folks are at least reading the OP's linked material to get familiar with this.
Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
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Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
655
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Posted - 2015.03.27 02:34:48 -
[78] - Quote
P3ps1 Max wrote:All I got was blah blah blah and more blah. You should be happy, then. It's right up your alley.
The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
339
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Posted - 2015.03.27 04:48:05 -
[79] - Quote
Woah! |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1983
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Posted - 2015.03.27 10:53:34 -
[80] - Quote
CCP may have said Grid Fu in general isn't an exploit. That doesn't mean specific uses of Grid Fu aren't an exploit. CCP will reimburse for some cases of Grid Fu meaning that they are likely to regard a specific person deliberately creating that particular type of Grid Fu time and time again as an exploit.
There is room for both to be true. So.... Don't abuse it, don't be a **** about it. |
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3243
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Posted - 2015.03.27 16:31:04 -
[81] - Quote
At one time multi-casting via programs like Isboxer was valid game-play.
Now its not.
Just because grid manipulation is valid game-play now, does not mean it always will be. But my guess is CCP will never declare it an exploit. Instead, they will build it out of the game, or adjust it in some way so as to nerf most of the benefits of doing it.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1167
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Posted - 2015.03.27 16:40:02 -
[82] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:At one time multi-casting via programs like Isboxer was valid game-play.
Now its not.
Just because grid manipulation is valid game-play now, does not mean it always will be. But my guess is CCP will never declare it an exploit. Instead, they will build it out of the game, or adjust it in some way so as to nerf most of the benefits of doing it. Yes. Depends how many people use it and how "big a problem" it becomes after threads like this.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
SOV is stagnant because Low Sec is not the next step from High Sec and a viable place to grow alliances to the point they can challenge Null alliances.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Vyl Vit
1152
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Posted - 2015.03.27 16:42:05 -
[83] - Quote
Like the charming OP-er said, everything you do to advance in a game is exploiting a feature. The game designers may not call it that, but that's what they're doing, setting up features, mechanics and parameters for us to exploit with varying degrees of success. Bannable Offense, on the other hand...this is where intelligent discussion falls to the wayside.
It's an unfortunate choice of words using "exploit" to label a sin. We didn't choose it, but someone did. *looks over at the devs* Slotting guns, loading them, targeting something and hitting the fire button is exploiting a feature in the game to gain an advantage you previously didn't have. It's how it's done.
So is asking the dealer to hit you when he's just dealt you an ace. You're trying to exploit the values of a deck (in casinos three decks) of cards to hit something close to 21. They expect it. Devs expect you to try to exploit a system they built. They even try to make it difficult to exploit. If you didn't TRY to exploit it, they'd have to critique their work - go back to the drawing board.
You have to remember Serene Repose's favorite thing to do is monkey with words to achieve a smart@$$ed result. Serene exploits the language and people's habits in using it for her own personal amusement, and sometimes with some pretty funny results. However, she also usually has a point.
This point? Maybe it's time the upgrade came to iron out these decade old wrinkles. The tech has seriously jumped past EVE and maybe it's getting near the time to make that investment. How many of us would donate significant real money to help finance an upgrade of the tech platform the game is built around? I'd drop $500 on it...maybe more over time. You?
Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10467
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Posted - 2015.03.27 16:43:12 -
[84] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? I'm starting to think Serene has a taste for hoop earrings and plaid blouses.
Also her name is misleading, for her Repose is the Least Serene I've ever seen!
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Hengle Teron
Just Another Corp XIV
44114
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Posted - 2015.03.27 17:12:09 -
[85] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Like the charming OP-er said, everything you do to advance in a game is exploiting a feature. Exploit stands for bug exploits, whenever the talk is about banable offenses. |
Serene Repose
2507
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Posted - 2015.03.27 17:14:22 -
[86] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? I'm starting to think Serene has a taste for hoop earrings and plaid blouses. Also her name is misleading, for her Repose is the Least Serene I've ever seen! Mmm...black leather actually, but sleeveless! My favorite ride; riding b*tch on my old man's Harley (God bless his pointed head), and we think Jack Daniels is a table wine. He rebuilds Harleys in the livingroom. I game in the den. It's a coupling made in hog heaven - chopped hog, that is.
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
656
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Posted - 2015.03.27 17:16:44 -
[87] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:Like the charming OP-er said, everything you do to advance in a game is exploiting a feature. Exploit stands for bug exploits, whenever the talk is about banable offenses. Exploit means whatever game management wants it to mean. "Bug" and "glitch" are words adolescents use among themselves to sound knowledgeable and cool. When you're trying to troubleshoot technology, your language requires precision. "Bannable" for instance.
The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3244
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Posted - 2015.03.27 19:19:09 -
[88] - Quote
A possible new grid mechanic: This comes from multi-body simulations of the gravitational interactions of stars in a galaxy. Such a simulation may contain hundreds of millions of stars. Each can gravitationally effect the others, resulting in quadrillions of interactions and calculations per time step, and billions of time steps are needed to simulate a galactic collision. This is far beyond computer capabilities. So what the programmers do is divide space into grids. They find the mass and center of gravity of each grid. In each grid, they calculate each and every star to star interaction. For far away grids: Each star to grid center-of mass interaction is calculated. But what about stars in nearby grids? If the center of mass was used for a star right up against a grid boundary, there could be large errors caused by not accounting for a star right on the other side of that boundary. A double-star that crosses a grid boundary would fly apart as each star found itself on opposite sides of the boundary. So that is done is each star-to-star interaction is calculated for all stars in the grid, and for all stars one grid away. It's not until you get two grids away that the center of mass method is used.
For Eve: All ships would see everything in their grid, and everything in all the grids one layer out. It would not be until you cross the second grid boundary that an object would vanish from view. Now, assuming reasonable minimum grid sizes, you could never have two ships a kilometer apart, and not see each other.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2287
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Posted - 2015.03.27 20:41:13 -
[89] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:CCP may have said Grid Fu in general isn't an exploit. That doesn't mean specific uses of Grid Fu aren't an exploit. CCP will reimburse for some cases of Grid Fu meaning that they are likely to regard a specific person deliberately creating that particular type of Grid Fu time and time again as an exploit.
There is room for both to be true. So.... Don't abuse it, don't be a **** about it. Yeah. CPP says anything that's an unintended consequence that they don't want to fix is not an exploit.
On Grid Fu, create a grid line near a customs office in a wh. Anchor a mobile depot a few k from the gridline. In short order a resident wh'lr will discover the depot and attempt to put it into reinforced, bomb the person through the grid line, you can position your bombers so that the bombs cross the line a few seconds before they explode :) No escape.
Can also do the same with a bubble in the middle of nowhere. They'll scan it down and try to blow it up and you can bomb across the line when they do.
It circumvents the 10 second delay that a person is supposed to get before bombs explode.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Mr Duffo
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
79
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Posted - 2015.03.27 21:27:58 -
[90] - Quote
too long didnt read, for the state? |
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