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Serene Repose
2502
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 12:58:30 -
[1] - Quote
As long as players can manipulate the actual shape of the playing board, and in a way that is virtually undetectable with certainty, the game is rigged. You cannot believe what you're looking at. What is Grid Fu? Take some time and read this.
GRID FU A Practical Manual (By Goonwaffles)
How is this not an exploit? Hmmm?
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 13:01:11 -
[2] - Quote
How exactly would you have the server partition grids?
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
289
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:01:37 -
[3] - Quote
Posting in a cloaky grr goon thread.
Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity.
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Memphis Baas
260
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:03:57 -
[4] - Quote
It's been linked periodically since that article was written (quite a long time ago).
From what I understand, it takes a long time to set up (you have to manipulate it in specific ways with ships), which makes it somewhat difficult to use on a whim or when enemies are around.
So I think CCP is considering the amount of effort required to change the grid code (which affects everything in space) vs. just how much usage this exploit sees, and the benefits / damages it causes, and you can see the result of that consideration (no action taken).
In any case, keep in mind that discussing exploits on the forums is prohibited. |
Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:04:05 -
[5] - Quote
Why would it be an exploit?
It's clever use of game mechanics. No one is exploiting a weakness in design or code.
The fact that space works this way is by design. Furthermore does it add quite a lot to the game, because it adds another tactical element.
And besides that, manipulated grids are only really reliable from dow tkms to downtime and can be manipulated even further by anyone else.
Also... nice looks. You didn't reply to my mail. :( |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 13:08:20 -
[6] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:In any case, keep in mind that discussing exploits on the forums is prohibited. So, I mean, change your mind and don't call it an exploit if you want to discuss it (oops too late I guess). I think most people here are mature enough to understand the difference between discussing an exploit, and discussing whether something that isn't an exploit should be considered one.
I say most, because there are inevitably a few numbskulls who crop up and conflate the two.
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12291
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Do you whine about everything? I mean, this is some pretty long standing stuff here, well known by the devs and players alike, and you are up in arms like you just heard about it.
So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
759
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:15:15 -
[8] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? I'm starting to think Serene has a taste for hoop earrings and plaid blouses.
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
269
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:16:58 -
[9] - Quote
yeah as one that used to incap pos mods all day in a solo battleship I used to abuse the gun range, and I would pod people in low sec from extreme range, then ccp changed that I guess they finally considered it an exploit to out fire the gun range at gates and pos's. Now the stupid things fire at anything that can be seen. no matter how many sebo's I put on a ship can only target 249.99kms which doesn't even allow me to do a strike and play gridfu if I tried.
EVERYTHING IS A GAME MACHANIC UNTIL CCP DECIDES OTHERWISE
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12291
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:18:36 -
[10] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? I'm starting to think Serene has a taste for hoop earrings and plaid blouses.
And this haircut.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Remiel Pollard
Against All Odds.
6559
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 13:22:30 -
[11] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote: How is this not an exploit?
Let's hear you explain how it is one first.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Moshi
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:22:35 -
[12] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Do you whine about everything? I mean, this is some pretty long standing stuff here, well known by the devs and players alike, and you are up in arms like you just heard about it.
So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now?
You don't strike me as a happy soul. |
Paranoid Loyd
4387
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 13:22:42 -
[13] - Quote
4/10 nicely done
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Remiel Pollard
Against All Odds.
6559
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 13:25:14 -
[14] - Quote
Moshi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Do you whine about everything? I mean, this is some pretty long standing stuff here, well known by the devs and players alike, and you are up in arms like you just heard about it.
So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? You don't strike me as a happy soul.
He doesn't usually strike anyone at all but I'm sure he has his reasons.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Serene Repose
2502
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:30:26 -
[15] - Quote
Get a good list of the posters to this thread who "don't see a problem here". They are practitioners. They may as well be saying, "The emperor does SO have clothes on! You just can't SEE them."
Anywhere else in the forum it's claimed you can't prove a negative. Right off the bat I'm told to. Uh huh.
I just came down with yesterday's rain. (Quite a few rapid responses for a "Nothing here. Move along.")
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
9176
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 13:31:10 -
[16] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Moshi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Do you whine about everything? I mean, this is some pretty long standing stuff here, well known by the devs and players alike, and you are up in arms like you just heard about it.
So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? You don't strike me as a happy soul. He doesn't usually strike anyone at all but I'm sure he has his reasons. Too busy shiptoasting to log in and strike
Though one could level the same accusation at myself also
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
24140
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 13:31:29 -
[17] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote: How is this not an exploit?
From: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Grid_Manipulation
In CCP's own words:
Quote:This whole process is quite complex but not an exploit of game mechanics.
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
EVE:Valkyrie pilot unmasked (her name is Ran)
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TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
1056
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 13:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:Why would it be an exploit?
It's clever use of game mechanics. No one is exploiting a weakness in design or code.
An exploit is by definition clever use of game mechanics until it is removed from the game for being an exploit... Skynet was clever use of game mechanics...
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
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Remiel Pollard
Against All Odds.
6560
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 13:45:03 -
[19] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:Eve Solecist wrote:Why would it be an exploit?
It's clever use of game mechanics. No one is exploiting a weakness in design or code.
An exploit is by definition clever use of game mechanics until it is removed from the game for being an exploit... Skynet was clever use of game mechanics...
Well... no, skynet is not very clever at all. A trained ape can figure out how to assist fighters, without the training. Grid-fu on the other hand is somewhat trickier, but not an exploit, as posted by Sibyyl above.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
291
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 13:49:55 -
[20] - Quote
Wow, that manual has a high degree of high school math textbook feel to it. Well, if you omit words like AIDS and cancer at least. It looks more professional than any report I ever compiled.
Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity.
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Soldarius
Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent
1196
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 13:56:39 -
[21] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:As long as players can manipulate the actual shape of the playing board, and in a way that is virtually undetectable with certainty, the game is rigged. You cannot believe what you're looking at. What is Grid Fu? Take some time and read this. GRID FU A Practical Manual (By Goonwaffles)How is this not an exploit? Hmmm?
I'm sorry, but were you under the impression that all of space in this game is one giant continuous grid? You clearly didn't read the manual. Just warping to some place in space creates a grid if you are the first thing there. Expanding a grid happens automatically when you move around and drop something as a place holder.
That manual is great for learning exactly how grids work and how to use CCP-designed grid mechanics to your advantage.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
6183
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:00:36 -
[22] - Quote
Is this an exploit? No, not really.
Should the capability for a player (or group of players) to manipulate the boundaries of the grid within the game mechanics due simply to understanding obscure properties of the game engine that are not easily discovered and used by the player base as a whole (and grants an distinct advantage) be completely reworked? Yeah, it really should be.
This is a great example of one of those things that CCP is firmly trying to eradicate.
Players should succeed through superior use of known mechanics, not though superior knowledge of game related trivia and technical limitations.
While the fact that Grid Fu is an unintended possibility for players to take advantage of is not in itself reason to eliminate it (unexpected game play is great)... but it's arcane nature, power to grant a huge advantage, and obvious immersion destroying nature make it a prime candidate for a rewrite.
View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
6183
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:05:13 -
[23] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Serene Repose wrote:As long as players can manipulate the actual shape of the playing board, and in a way that is virtually undetectable with certainty, the game is rigged. You cannot believe what you're looking at. What is Grid Fu? Take some time and read this. GRID FU A Practical Manual (By Goonwaffles)How is this not an exploit? Hmmm? I'm sorry, but were you under the impression that all of space in this game is one giant continuous grid? You clearly didn't read the manual. Just warping to some place in space creates a grid if you are the first thing there. Expanding a grid happens automatically when you move around and drop something as a place holder. That manual is great for learning exactly how grids work and how to use CCP-designed grid mechanics to your advantage. I'm pretty sure the OP and everyone in this thread is well aware of Grid Fu and how it is done.
On the other hand, if you think that CCP preference or intention is that battles in EVE be won or lost (or even heavily influenced by) manipulating the grid structure mechanics in place you are deluding yourself.
Like many things in EVE that need to go away, the only reason this exists is because it's removal would require a major rewrite of some very fundamental code. Not that CCP has gotten to a place where some of those major rewrites are starting to happen, I could easily see this as making it's way onto the "Finally fix this nonsense" list.
View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
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bonkerss
MASS A DEATH Mordus Angels
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:11:44 -
[24] - Quote
we unintentionally gridfued the other night while dropping a can at a "wrong" spot. resulting in the loss of the entire fleet because we warped on our ping at 10 but we were like maybe a couple k off the other grid. unfortunately the people in the other grid could see us and we got locked and killed by stuff we could neither see nor lock on our grid.
so basically you can set the grid up so that one side can see the other but the other side is not aware that a whole fleet is on top of them. also funny is the doctor bubbled us and we couldn't warp even tough the bubble was not visible on our grid.
if you think this is smart use of game mechanic then im not really sure whats wrong with you:) this awfully looks like a horrible exploit. at least ccp reimbursed the whole fleet. but this tactic can easily be abused and people probably do it on a daily basis.
so **** gridfu and make it a bannable offense |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12292
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:12:26 -
[25] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Too busy shiptoasting to log in and strike Though one could level the same accusation at myself also
Actually, I rather doubt that it's the same accusation right now.
My wife just had our second child(literally yesterday), so while I'm a tad busy, now that she's finally not having a high risk pregnancy (and the thrice weekly doctor visits that entailed), my schedule should free up quite a bit in the near future.
But anyway, as far as my happiness goes. While I thank the random NPC alt for looking after my well being, I'm doing just fine.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
24142
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:42:01 -
[26] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: This is a great example of one of those things that CCP is firmly trying to eradicate.
You mean.. like Hyperdunking? CCP is not firmly patterned to do anything.
Quote:Players should succeed through superior use of known mechanics, not though superior knowledge of game related trivia and technical limitations.
Players should succeed through research, risk, and intelligence. Grid fu fits perfectly within the EVE sphere.
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
EVE:Valkyrie pilot unmasked (her name is Ran)
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
9177
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:42:54 -
[27] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Too busy shiptoasting to log in and strike Though one could level the same accusation at myself also Actually, I rather doubt that it's the same accusation right now. My wife just had our second child(literally yesterday), so while I'm a tad busy, now that she's finally not having a high risk pregnancy (and the thrice weekly doctor visits that entailed), my schedule should free up quite a bit in the near future. But anyway, as far as my happiness goes. While I thank the random NPC alt for looking after my well being, I'm doing just fine. congratulations mate. know im only poking fun
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12299
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:46:46 -
[28] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:congratulations mate. know im only poking fun
I thought I was just poking fun.
And then we conceived the second one.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:48:07 -
[29] - Quote
I demand Serene getting stage 1 freckles, and ... ... we need another rallying thread for clothes which allow Sibyyl to reveal even more skin.
Also... I look soooooo achuran, but still like myself. ^_^
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Hicksimus
Xion Limited Resonance.
567
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:48:31 -
[30] - Quote
I like to imagine EvE arguments about "gameplay mechanics" in terms of how stupid they would sound in other games.
Let's say you have a large group of people playing/observing a game of Monopoly....it's usually very long, very boring and very full of people getting angry. The game eventually ends many days later with many ruined friendships and at worst somebody steals money during a bio break.
But have a large group of EvE players playing/observing Monopoly and suddenly things go full ******. One of the players realizes that the board is quite small and he can punch the other players in the face for an advantage. If that player happens to be from the blue doughnut everybody jumps in to declare that it's legitimate because if the game designers didn't want people to punch others in the face they'd have made the board larger because it's a gameplay mechanic while all of the normal people in the world wonder WTF is wrong with EvE players.
Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you?
Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
21
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Posted - 2015.03.26 14:48:59 -
[31] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:congratulations mate. know im only poking fun I thought I was just poking fun. And then we conceived the second one. LOL ... congratulations!
Tell us when you have five! :) |
Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:50:19 -
[32] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote:I like to imagine EvE arguments about "gameplay mechanics" in terms of how stupid they would sound in other games.
Let's say you have a large group of people playing/observing a game of Monopoly....it's usually very long, very boring and very full of people getting angry. The game eventually ends many days later with many ruined friendships and at worst somebody steals money during a bio break.
But have a large group of EvE players playing/observing Monopoly and suddenly things go full ******. One of the players realizes that the board is quite small and he can punch the other players in the face for an advantage. If that player happens to be from the blue doughnut everybody jumps in to declare that it's legitimate because if the game designers didn't want people to punch others in the face they'd have made the board larger because it's a gameplay mechanic while all of the normal people in the world wonder WTF is wrong with EvE players. Saving that one for truth..... ROFL
I WANT TO GIVE YOU THOUSAND LIKES BUT ITS NOT WORKING!!! |
Serene Repose
2502
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:51:33 -
[33] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Serene Repose wrote:As long as players can manipulate the actual shape of the playing board, and in a way that is virtually undetectable with certainty, the game is rigged. You cannot believe what you're looking at. What is Grid Fu? Take some time and read this. GRID FU A Practical Manual (By Goonwaffles)How is this not an exploit? Hmmm? I'm sorry, but were you under the impression that all of space in this game is one giant continuous grid? You clearly didn't read the manual. Just warping to some place in space creates a grid if you are the first thing there. Expanding a grid happens automatically when you move around and drop something as a place holder. That manual is great for learning exactly how grids work and how to use CCP-designed grid mechanics to your advantage. I'm sorry, but did I say that?
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Vyl Vit
1146
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:53:12 -
[34] - Quote
Oh, so you can manipulate the grid. Oh, so you had a bad experience with it. Oh, so it's not fair. HTFU and go gank somebody. You'll feel better for it.
(Brought to you as a public service by Sociopaths Unlimited, all rights reserved.)
Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
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malcovas Henderson
THoF
351
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:56:31 -
[35] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
My wife just had our second child(literally yesterday), so while I'm a tad busy, now that she's finally not having a high risk pregnancy (and the thrice weekly doctor visits that entailed), my schedule should free up quite a bit in the near future.
Congratulation to you and your wife dude. All the best wishes to both of you. Now I am expecting Young Kaarous to be flying a cata vsoon.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8115
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 14:58:20 -
[36] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:Hicksimus wrote:I like to imagine EvE arguments about "gameplay mechanics" in terms of how stupid they would sound in other games.
Let's say you have a large group of people playing/observing a game of Monopoly....it's usually very long, very boring and very full of people getting angry. The game eventually ends many days later with many ruined friendships and at worst somebody steals money during a bio break.
But have a large group of EvE players playing/observing Monopoly and suddenly things go full ******. One of the players realizes that the board is quite small and he can punch the other players in the face for an advantage. If that player happens to be from the blue doughnut everybody jumps in to declare that it's legitimate because if the game designers didn't want people to punch others in the face they'd have made the board larger because it's a gameplay mechanic while all of the normal people in the world wonder WTF is wrong with EvE players. Saving that one for truth..... ROFL I WANT TO GIVE YOU THOUSAND LIKES BUT ITS NOT WORKING!!!
Not empty quoting. Really.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Hengle Teron
Just Another Corp XIV
44009
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:05:24 -
[37] - Quote
bonkerss wrote:we unintentionally gridfued the other night while dropping a can at a "wrong" spot. resulting in the loss of the entire fleet because we warped on our ping at 10 but we were like maybe a couple k off the other grid. unfortunately the people in the other grid could see us and we got locked and killed by stuff we could neither see nor lock on our grid.
so basically you can set the grid up so that one side can see the other but the other side is not aware that a whole fleet is on top of them. also funny is the doctor bubbled us and we couldn't warp even tough the bubble was not visible on our grid.
if you think this is smart use of game mechanic then im not really sure whats wrong with you:) this awfully looks like a horrible exploit. at least ccp reimbursed the whole fleet. but this tactic can easily be abused and people probably do it on a daily basis.
so **** gridfu and make it a bannable offense cool story bro |
Amarrchecko
Hedion University Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2015.03.26 15:11:55 -
[38] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:No one is exploiting a weakness in design or code.
How in the world did you convince yourself that this is true? |
Serene Repose
2502
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:20:55 -
[39] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:bonkerss wrote:we unintentionally gridfued the other night while dropping a can at a "wrong" spot. resulting in the loss of the entire fleet because we warped on our ping at 10 but we were like maybe a couple k off the other grid. unfortunately the people in the other grid could see us and we got locked and killed by stuff we could neither see nor lock on our grid.
so basically you can set the grid up so that one side can see the other but the other side is not aware that a whole fleet is on top of them. also funny is the doctor bubbled us and we couldn't warp even tough the bubble was not visible on our grid.
if you think this is smart use of game mechanic then im not really sure whats wrong with you:) this awfully looks like a horrible exploit. at least ccp reimbursed the whole fleet. but this tactic can easily be abused and people probably do it on a daily basis.
so **** gridfu and make it a bannable offense cool story bro Oh look. We have erudite among us!
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Hengle Teron
Just Another Corp XIV
44010
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:22:28 -
[40] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:bonkerss wrote:we unintentionally gridfued the other night while dropping a can at a "wrong" spot. resulting in the loss of the entire fleet because we warped on our ping at 10 but we were like maybe a couple k off the other grid. unfortunately the people in the other grid could see us and we got locked and killed by stuff we could neither see nor lock on our grid.
so basically you can set the grid up so that one side can see the other but the other side is not aware that a whole fleet is on top of them. also funny is the doctor bubbled us and we couldn't warp even tough the bubble was not visible on our grid.
if you think this is smart use of game mechanic then im not really sure whats wrong with you:) this awfully looks like a horrible exploit. at least ccp reimbursed the whole fleet. but this tactic can easily be abused and people probably do it on a daily basis.
so **** gridfu and make it a bannable offense cool story bro Oh look. We have erudite among us! Oh I'm sorry, did you want to say anything before my Brutor smashing club reaches your head ? |
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Maeliki Sullanniel
Nox Draconum Holding Corp Nox Draconum
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:23:49 -
[41] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote: ...
Also... I look soooooo achuran, but still like myself. ^_^
*\o/* Yay! for looking Achuran!
Boo! for Grid-Fu! |
Serene Repose
2502
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:26:24 -
[42] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:How exactly would you have the server partition grids? Uncharted Waters, an NES game with a map depicting all of Earth, the whole globe, has to break that map into loadable sections (considering how big Earth is). With a game that primitive they didn't seem to require a system that is exploitable, or one that can be reformed and reshaped by the player. Are you saying ten years later in technology (when EVE was born) something about the advancement of technology forced us to revert to something more primitive than an NES game? I think not. Nice try. This methodology was known years before EVE was developed.
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
6184
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:31:49 -
[43] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Should the capability for a player (or group of players) to manipulate the boundaries of the grid within the game mechanics due simply to understanding obscure properties of the game engine that are not easily discovered and used by the player base as a whole (and grants an distinct advantage) be completely reworked? Yeah, it really should be.
This is a great example of one of those things that CCP is firmly trying to eradicate. You mean.. like Hyperdunking? CCP is not firmly patterned to do anything. Quote:Players should succeed through superior use of known mechanics, not though superior knowledge of game related trivia and technical limitations. Players should succeed through research, risk, and intelligence. Grid fu fits perfectly within the EVE sphere. You should probably look at CCP's recent STRONG emphasis on making game mechanics more transparent before you use that argument. They want players competing on a level where skill matters, not your ability to find flaws in obscure game mechanics. To this end contrived and non-intuitive game mechanics just like this one are being systematically eliminated from the game.
View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
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Vyl Vit
1146
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:35:14 -
[44] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:bonkerss wrote:we unintentionally gridfued the other night while dropping a can at a "wrong" spot. resulting in the loss of the entire fleet because we warped on our ping at 10 but we were like maybe a couple k off the other grid. unfortunately the people in the other grid could see us and we got locked and killed by stuff we could neither see nor lock on our grid.
so basically you can set the grid up so that one side can see the other but the other side is not aware that a whole fleet is on top of them. also funny is the doctor bubbled us and we couldn't warp even tough the bubble was not visible on our grid.
if you think this is smart use of game mechanic then im not really sure whats wrong with you:) this awfully looks like a horrible exploit. at least ccp reimbursed the whole fleet. but this tactic can easily be abused and people probably do it on a daily basis.
so **** gridfu and make it a bannable offense cool story bro Oh look. We have erudite among us! Oh I'm sorry, did you want to say anything before my Brutor smashing club reaches your head ? Find a Brutor and smash it?
Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
|
Serene Repose
2502
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:38:54 -
[45] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:bonkerss wrote:we unintentionally gridfued the other night while dropping a can at a "wrong" spot. resulting in the loss of the entire fleet because we warped on our ping at 10 but we were like maybe a couple k off the other grid. unfortunately the people in the other grid could see us and we got locked and killed by stuff we could neither see nor lock on our grid.
so basically you can set the grid up so that one side can see the other but the other side is not aware that a whole fleet is on top of them. also funny is the doctor bubbled us and we couldn't warp even tough the bubble was not visible on our grid.
if you think this is smart use of game mechanic then im not really sure whats wrong with you:) this awfully looks like a horrible exploit. at least ccp reimbursed the whole fleet. but this tactic can easily be abused and people probably do it on a daily basis.
so **** gridfu and make it a bannable offense cool story bro Oh look. We have erudite among us! Oh I'm sorry, did you want to say anything before my Brutor smashing club reaches your head ? Look! It's trying to be fearsome and scary and stuff! WoooOOOOooOOOOooOOOOoooo. I'm skeered. Ain't you guys skeered?
HEY SPIKE, WHADDYA LIKE?
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
9179
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:38:57 -
[46] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:bonkerss wrote:we unintentionally gridfued the other night while dropping a can at a "wrong" spot. resulting in the loss of the entire fleet because we warped on our ping at 10 but we were like maybe a couple k off the other grid. unfortunately the people in the other grid could see us and we got locked and killed by stuff we could neither see nor lock on our grid.
so basically you can set the grid up so that one side can see the other but the other side is not aware that a whole fleet is on top of them. also funny is the doctor bubbled us and we couldn't warp even tough the bubble was not visible on our grid.
if you think this is smart use of game mechanic then im not really sure whats wrong with you:) this awfully looks like a horrible exploit. at least ccp reimbursed the whole fleet. but this tactic can easily be abused and people probably do it on a daily basis.
so **** gridfu and make it a bannable offense cool story bro Oh look. We have erudite among us! Oh I'm sorry, did you want to say anything before my Brutor smashing club reaches your head ? Find a Brutor and smash it? haha, grammar
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
6184
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:49:27 -
[47] - Quote
Well, on the bright side I seem to remember references to necessary changes that may have to happen to grid mechanics as we get into structures we can deploy anywhere.
Heck, they were looking strongly into new mechanics along this line when they were exploring moving celestial bodies, such as orbiting planets/moons/stations or comets moving about a system.
Progress was made then, and this was a while ago. With any luck the options being discussed for new structures and their placement means that some advancement has been made along this line.
View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
|
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
655
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 16:08:03 -
[48] - Quote
I can see some folks growing reliant on such things as these suddenly having to suck air through their a$$hole$ trying to figure out another way to play. That's a thing about cheating. And, when you do it, you know that's what it is, so don't try some schoolkid argument about "no it ain't, nannner nanner."
It's just not a good idea to succumb to the fashionable idea that if you don't get caught it's alright.
The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12304
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 16:22:28 -
[49] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
My wife just had our second child(literally yesterday), so while I'm a tad busy, now that she's finally not having a high risk pregnancy (and the thrice weekly doctor visits that entailed), my schedule should free up quite a bit in the near future.
Congratulation to you and your wife dude. All the best wishes to both of you. Now I am expecting Young Kaarous to be flying a cata vsoon.
Stay tuned...
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Remiel Pollard
Against All Odds.
6563
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 16:26:51 -
[50] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:I can see some folks growing reliant on such things as these suddenly having to suck air through their a$$hole$ trying to figure out another way to play. That's a thing about cheating. And, when you do it, you know that's what it is, so don't try some schoolkid argument about "no it ain't, nannner nanner."
It's just not a good idea to succumb to the fashionable idea that if you don't get caught it's alright.
No one's cheating though, and it's not a 'schoolkid' argument, it's not an exploit and CCP have said as much. Anyone getting 'caught' doing it won't even get a slap on the wrist.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
|
Vyl Vit
1148
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 16:27:34 -
[51] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:I can see some folks growing reliant on such things as these suddenly having to suck air through their a$$hole$ trying to figure out another way to play. That's a thing about cheating. And, when you do it, you know that's what it is, so don't try some schoolkid argument about "no it ain't, nannner nanner."
It's just not a good idea to succumb to the fashionable idea that if you don't get caught it's alright. No one's cheating though, and it's not a 'schoolkid' argument, it's not an exploit and CCP have said as much. Was he talking about just this?
Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
|
Remiel Pollard
Against All Odds.
6563
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 16:28:42 -
[52] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:I can see some folks growing reliant on such things as these suddenly having to suck air through their a$$hole$ trying to figure out another way to play. That's a thing about cheating. And, when you do it, you know that's what it is, so don't try some schoolkid argument about "no it ain't, nannner nanner."
It's just not a good idea to succumb to the fashionable idea that if you don't get caught it's alright. No one's cheating though, and it's not a 'schoolkid' argument, it's not an exploit and CCP have said as much. Was he talking about just this?
This thread is about grid-fu. If he's talking about something else, he should specify, and probably talk about it somewhere else.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
655
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 16:33:50 -
[53] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:I can see some folks growing reliant on such things as these suddenly having to suck air through their a$$hole$ trying to figure out another way to play. That's a thing about cheating. And, when you do it, you know that's what it is, so don't try some schoolkid argument about "no it ain't, nannner nanner."
It's just not a good idea to succumb to the fashionable idea that if you don't get caught it's alright. No one's cheating though, and it's not a 'schoolkid' argument, it's not an exploit and CCP have said as much. Anyone getting 'caught' doing it won't even get a slap on the wrist. You had to try anyway. I know.
The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
|
Remiel Pollard
Against All Odds.
6563
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 16:37:17 -
[54] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:I can see some folks growing reliant on such things as these suddenly having to suck air through their a$$hole$ trying to figure out another way to play. That's a thing about cheating. And, when you do it, you know that's what it is, so don't try some schoolkid argument about "no it ain't, nannner nanner."
It's just not a good idea to succumb to the fashionable idea that if you don't get caught it's alright. No one's cheating though, and it's not a 'schoolkid' argument, it's not an exploit and CCP have said as much. Anyone getting 'caught' doing it won't even get a slap on the wrist. You had to try anyway. I know.
It's not trying, it's facts. I'm telling you facts, and the fact is, it's not an exploit. And your reply in typical flat-earther fashion is dismissal a la ignorance. From the article linked:
"This whole process is quite complex but not an exploit of game mechanics."
Most reasonable people would go, "oh look, facts to the contrary of what I believed previously, I should concede that I'm wrong and adapt to this new information." Let's see if you have the maturity to pull that one off instead of reverting to the ironic immaturity of accusing people of being children because they don't play the game in the way you say/think they should.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 16:56:45 -
[55] - Quote
Dunning Kruger, ladies and gentlemen.
Ignorance about Ignorance.
It must be cheating, because I say it's cheating, disregarding the actual definition of cheating.
I'm too tired for this. simple people who should not have a voice.
Serene, at this point I believe that people who deliberate make the stupid come out, are in fact bad and sad people who need something to feel better about. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1573
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 17:17:47 -
[56] - Quote
Agondray wrote:yeah as one that used to incap pos mods all day in a solo battleship I used to abuse the gun range, and I would pod people in low sec from extreme range, then ccp changed that I guess they finally considered it an exploit to out fire the gun range at gates and pos's. Now the stupid things fire at anything that can be seen. no matter how many sebo's I put on a ship can only target 249.99kms which doesn't even allow me to do a strike and play gridfu if I tried.
EVERYTHING IS A GAME MACHANIC UNTIL CCP DECIDES OTHERWISE Maybe you could take another approach? Shrink grid to make it as close to the target as possible. Then approach, fire, de-approach, leave grid. Could work with slow POS targeting system.
We used grid-fu to catch bot tengu in 0.0 back in 2011. Extended grid to 400km+ and put bubble. Then used login trap. Killed it once. Bot owner fitted next ship with interdiction nullifier subsystem.....
And i have seen the same tengu half a year after in different space/alliance/corp doing the same. CCP bot reporting works wonders!
Eve Solecist wrote:Dunning Kruger, ladies and gentlemen.
Ignorance about Ignorance.
It must be cheating, because I say it's cheating, disregarding the actual definition of cheating.
you forgot to put Kaarous's quote here
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
754
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 18:09:27 -
[57] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Get a good list of the posters to this thread who "don't see a problem here". They are practitioners. They may as well be saying, "The emperor does SO have clothes on! You just can't SEE them."
Anywhere else in the forum it's claimed you can't prove a negative. Right off the bat I'm told to. Uh huh.
I just came down with yesterday's rain. (Quite a few rapid responses for a "Nothing here. Move along.") wow, that sure was a quick "i cannot be bothered to give any evidence for anything i suggest, i'm just going to insult everyone who doesn't agree with me and hope my large well of respect within the eve community carries the day"
sadly the Bank of Serene Repose's Respect has been overdrawn since before it even opened and never once has there even been a deposit |
Commander Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1448
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 18:21:27 -
[58] - Quote
OP: Just because someone documented their findings, doesn't mean "it wasn't used by others". It certainly never started happening the day that document was published!!!
To be clearer, this document just allows you, the causal player to learn how to do things the more 'curious' player already knows (but doesn't publicize).
if CCP hasn't fixed it, it's not considered enough of an issue. I'm still not convinced it's a problem even after all these years
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
|
Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1448
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 18:21:27 -
[59] - Quote
OP: Just because someone documented their findings, doesn't mean "it wasn't used by others". It certainly never started happening the day that document was published!!!
To be clearer, this document just allows you, the causal player to learn how to do things the more 'curious' player already knows (but doesn't publicize).
if CCP hasn't fixed it, it's not considered enough of an issue. I'm still not convinced it's a problem even after all these years
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
|
Zura Namee
The Milkmen
16
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 18:36:44 -
[60] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:How exactly would you have the server partition grids? Uncharted Waters, an NES game with a map depicting all of Earth, the whole globe, has to break that map into loadable sections (considering how big Earth is). With a game that primitive they didn't seem to require a system that is exploitable, or one that can be reformed and reshaped by the player. Are you saying ten years later in technology (when EVE was born) something about the advancement of technology forced us to revert to something more primitive than an NES game? I think not. Nice try. This methodology was known years before EVE was developed.
Are you seriously implying a singleplayer game with load cells is remotely comparable to what EVE is doing? |
|
Serene Repose
2502
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 18:46:50 -
[61] - Quote
Zura Namee wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:How exactly would you have the server partition grids? Uncharted Waters, an NES game with a map depicting all of Earth, the whole globe, has to break that map into loadable sections (considering how big Earth is). With a game that primitive they didn't seem to require a system that is exploitable, or one that can be reformed and reshaped by the player. Are you saying ten years later in technology (when EVE was born) something about the advancement of technology forced us to revert to something more primitive than an NES game? I think not. Nice try. This methodology was known years before EVE was developed. Are you seriously implying a singleplayer game with load cells is remotely comparable to what EVE is doing? Generalize much?
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
|
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra Gallente Federation
277
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 18:48:27 -
[62] - Quote
It has to be said that that manual was made by the Original Goons. Original Goons were so much funnier than the New Goons. The New Goons are not the Original Goons. Even if they happen to have some members in common with the Original Goons.
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2284
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 18:51:52 -
[63] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:How exactly would you have the server partition grids? Player focused merging grids
A can see B. B can see A and C. C can see B. A cannot see C and C cannot see A.
Server creates a grid around each ship. If two ships grids overlap then server merges the grid into a new grid encompassing both ships and so on.
Benefits.
Server- Warping into a battle the server doesn't need to load every ship in the battle, only the ships that are in range of the players grid. Tactical - Reduces alpha effect. Makes mobility important. Makes flanking possible. Creates a fog of war effect.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
754
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 19:01:42 -
[64] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Generalize much?
man, you really aren't eager to put the least bit of thought into this, why on earth did you even make a thread |
Paranoid Loyd
4392
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 19:06:23 -
[65] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Generalize much?
man, you really aren't eager to put the least bit of thought into this, why on earth did you even make a thread Stop taking the bait m8
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
2Sonas1Cup
54
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 19:08:55 -
[66] - Quote
You need to understand what is an exploit.
Exploit: Doing something that makes the game do something that isnt supposed to.
NOT an exploit: Inteligently using game mechanics.
CCP knows full well the grid works like this, he designed it, coded it intentionally to work like this.
Goons arent doint anything that CCP doesnt know about their own game. Like, exploiting a bug in the code.
|
Lugia3
The Southern Gentleman's Social Club Psychotic Tendencies.
1492
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 19:09:13 -
[67] - Quote
You have to be dumb to get killed by grid-fu nowadays. It was practical in fleet fights back in the day because there was no easy way to signal for reps. Some groups would set up their grid and hovered at the edge, where people in need of reps would boat off grid to take a breather with the logies.
Today logies have to be on grid because of the numbers meta. **** gets instapopped nowadays if you don't have your logies lock it right away. And we have broadcast/watchlist.
"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Remove Sov!
|
Mag's
the united
19170
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 21:30:26 -
[68] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:As long as players can manipulate the actual shape of the playing board, and in a way that is virtually undetectable with certainty, the game is rigged. You cannot believe what you're looking at. What is Grid Fu? Take some time and read this. GRID FU A Practical Manual (By Goonwaffles)How is this not an exploit? Hmmm? Where have you been for the past few years? Talk about old Eve news and this topic will come up.
Also, how is it an exploit? (Bearing in mind CCP have said it isn't.) But then facts don't seem to fit well into your narrative, do they?
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
3485
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 22:36:37 -
[69] - Quote
Posts like this one are what happens when the "I'm so good at this game" crowd encounters someone who actually understands EVE's mechanics enough to use them to their advantage. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
762
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 22:53:21 -
[70] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:How exactly would you have the server partition grids? Uncharted Waters, an NES game with a map depicting all of Earth, the whole globe, has to break that map into loadable sections (considering how big Earth is). With a game that primitive they didn't seem to require a system that is exploitable, or one that can be reformed and reshaped by the player. Are you saying ten years later in technology (when EVE was born) something about the advancement of technology forced us to revert to something more primitive than an NES game? I think not. Nice try. This methodology was known years before EVE was developed. I didn't ask you what another game does. I asked you how you would have EVE partition its grids. Please tell me how you'd adapt this supposedly superior partitioning scheme to EVE. I'd be glad to tell you how I'd break it. |
|
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1866
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 22:56:35 -
[71] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Serene Repose wrote:As long as players can manipulate the actual shape of the playing board, and in a way that is virtually undetectable with certainty, the game is rigged. You cannot believe what you're looking at. What is Grid Fu? Take some time and read this. GRID FU A Practical Manual (By Goonwaffles)How is this not an exploit? Hmmm? Where have you been for the past few years? Talk about old Eve news and this topic will come up. Also, how is it an exploit? (Bearing in mind CCP have said it isn't.) But then facts don't seem to fit well into your narrative, do they? not gonna say gridfu is an exploit, its not, its just players working creatively with measures implemented to cover the game's deficiencies (like the icky icky that would be 10Mm radius battlefields, etc)
but on the other hand, finding a way to more fairly work grid mechanics so that it cant be used to benefit of either side would be most welcome. |
Serene Repose
2502
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 00:48:41 -
[72] - Quote
SO! Some very good answers. Some rather nasty, uncalled for flaming, too. But, hey. This is GD after all.
The word "exploit" of course is the key word, or trip word. How it's come to be used, and what it actually is - between the two - is where you find your swamp. The whole purpose of playing a game to win is to exploit the parameters of the game toward that end. The one who does it best wins. Any winners in EVE? Well. We like to say "no," but we know it's "yes and no." It depends on the specific scenario. Nobody that splashes an opponent 1 v 1 PvP is going to say they lost, eh?
Had the question been, "How could this Grid Fu be fair?" we'd get an interesting set of responses as well, I'm sure. The greater question there would be, "Who said EVE is fair?" Then, we'd be open to all kinds of philosophical questions, not the least of which would be, "How could you take pride in winning an unfair competition (that is, unless you're the one against whom the table is tilted?")
Grid Fu is a digital example of tilting the table, however. I was gratified to see how many people readily admitted that. For me personally you have to view me as a chess and basketball player. I'm steeped in the "all things being equal" as far as the court (or board), the number of folks on the teams, the equal height of the goals, what do you bring to the game to advance the score? That's what you take pride in - that ability. I was equally gratified to see the posts championing that time-honored concept of skill and knowledge being the deciding factor, rather than the ability to tilt the floor, or raise your opponent's goal without being "caught."
Welp. Kentucky plays in an hour. Go Wildcats! Good luck to your team if you have a dog in this hunt - until it faces mine, that is.
Thanks for the well-considered and sincere responses. Thanks for the flames, too. After all. It is GD!
TYVM. Have a nice day!
(Oh, and please. Continue the back and forth if you have more to say.)
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
1164
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 00:53:13 -
[73] - Quote
I have seen grind manipulation in action recently.
Brawling fleet undocked and pushed kiting fleet across a grid line. They were split in half logi unable to repair and fleet subsequently shredded.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
SOV is stagnant because Low Sec is not the next step from High Sec and a viable place to grow alliances to the point they can challenge Null alliances.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
|
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2681
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 01:03:50 -
[74] - Quote
Tuttomenui II wrote:It has to be said that that manual was made by the Original Goons. Original Goons were so much funnier than the New Goons. The New Goons are not the Original Goons. Even if they happen to have some members in common with the Original Goons.
well you see a lot of the leaders are the same, a lot of the guys are the same, they all come from the same place on the internet but its totally not the same guys guys. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
46
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 01:14:02 -
[75] - Quote
I helped grid-fu for a friend. Stole 4 POCOs drops right out from under the noses of a fleet. Their transport sat there for 15 mins trying to anchor the gantry...each time
I have no doubt that they would have said that grid-fu was a Xploit. If they had a clue it was used against them.
My Troll-Fu needs work though |
P3ps1 Max
Hedion University Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 02:33:44 -
[76] - Quote
All I got was blah blah blah and more blah. |
Vyl Vit
1150
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 02:33:57 -
[77] - Quote
I hope folks are at least reading the OP's linked material to get familiar with this.
Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
|
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
655
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 02:34:48 -
[78] - Quote
P3ps1 Max wrote:All I got was blah blah blah and more blah. You should be happy, then. It's right up your alley.
The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
|
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
339
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 04:48:05 -
[79] - Quote
Woah! |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1983
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 10:53:34 -
[80] - Quote
CCP may have said Grid Fu in general isn't an exploit. That doesn't mean specific uses of Grid Fu aren't an exploit. CCP will reimburse for some cases of Grid Fu meaning that they are likely to regard a specific person deliberately creating that particular type of Grid Fu time and time again as an exploit.
There is room for both to be true. So.... Don't abuse it, don't be a **** about it. |
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3243
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Posted - 2015.03.27 16:31:04 -
[81] - Quote
At one time multi-casting via programs like Isboxer was valid game-play.
Now its not.
Just because grid manipulation is valid game-play now, does not mean it always will be. But my guess is CCP will never declare it an exploit. Instead, they will build it out of the game, or adjust it in some way so as to nerf most of the benefits of doing it.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1167
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Posted - 2015.03.27 16:40:02 -
[82] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:At one time multi-casting via programs like Isboxer was valid game-play.
Now its not.
Just because grid manipulation is valid game-play now, does not mean it always will be. But my guess is CCP will never declare it an exploit. Instead, they will build it out of the game, or adjust it in some way so as to nerf most of the benefits of doing it. Yes. Depends how many people use it and how "big a problem" it becomes after threads like this.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
SOV is stagnant because Low Sec is not the next step from High Sec and a viable place to grow alliances to the point they can challenge Null alliances.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Vyl Vit
1152
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Posted - 2015.03.27 16:42:05 -
[83] - Quote
Like the charming OP-er said, everything you do to advance in a game is exploiting a feature. The game designers may not call it that, but that's what they're doing, setting up features, mechanics and parameters for us to exploit with varying degrees of success. Bannable Offense, on the other hand...this is where intelligent discussion falls to the wayside.
It's an unfortunate choice of words using "exploit" to label a sin. We didn't choose it, but someone did. *looks over at the devs* Slotting guns, loading them, targeting something and hitting the fire button is exploiting a feature in the game to gain an advantage you previously didn't have. It's how it's done.
So is asking the dealer to hit you when he's just dealt you an ace. You're trying to exploit the values of a deck (in casinos three decks) of cards to hit something close to 21. They expect it. Devs expect you to try to exploit a system they built. They even try to make it difficult to exploit. If you didn't TRY to exploit it, they'd have to critique their work - go back to the drawing board.
You have to remember Serene Repose's favorite thing to do is monkey with words to achieve a smart@$$ed result. Serene exploits the language and people's habits in using it for her own personal amusement, and sometimes with some pretty funny results. However, she also usually has a point.
This point? Maybe it's time the upgrade came to iron out these decade old wrinkles. The tech has seriously jumped past EVE and maybe it's getting near the time to make that investment. How many of us would donate significant real money to help finance an upgrade of the tech platform the game is built around? I'd drop $500 on it...maybe more over time. You?
Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10467
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Posted - 2015.03.27 16:43:12 -
[84] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? I'm starting to think Serene has a taste for hoop earrings and plaid blouses.
Also her name is misleading, for her Repose is the Least Serene I've ever seen!
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Hengle Teron
Just Another Corp XIV
44114
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Posted - 2015.03.27 17:12:09 -
[85] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Like the charming OP-er said, everything you do to advance in a game is exploiting a feature. Exploit stands for bug exploits, whenever the talk is about banable offenses. |
Serene Repose
2507
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Posted - 2015.03.27 17:14:22 -
[86] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? I'm starting to think Serene has a taste for hoop earrings and plaid blouses. Also her name is misleading, for her Repose is the Least Serene I've ever seen! Mmm...black leather actually, but sleeveless! My favorite ride; riding b*tch on my old man's Harley (God bless his pointed head), and we think Jack Daniels is a table wine. He rebuilds Harleys in the livingroom. I game in the den. It's a coupling made in hog heaven - chopped hog, that is.
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
656
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Posted - 2015.03.27 17:16:44 -
[87] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:Like the charming OP-er said, everything you do to advance in a game is exploiting a feature. Exploit stands for bug exploits, whenever the talk is about banable offenses. Exploit means whatever game management wants it to mean. "Bug" and "glitch" are words adolescents use among themselves to sound knowledgeable and cool. When you're trying to troubleshoot technology, your language requires precision. "Bannable" for instance.
The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3244
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Posted - 2015.03.27 19:19:09 -
[88] - Quote
A possible new grid mechanic: This comes from multi-body simulations of the gravitational interactions of stars in a galaxy. Such a simulation may contain hundreds of millions of stars. Each can gravitationally effect the others, resulting in quadrillions of interactions and calculations per time step, and billions of time steps are needed to simulate a galactic collision. This is far beyond computer capabilities. So what the programmers do is divide space into grids. They find the mass and center of gravity of each grid. In each grid, they calculate each and every star to star interaction. For far away grids: Each star to grid center-of mass interaction is calculated. But what about stars in nearby grids? If the center of mass was used for a star right up against a grid boundary, there could be large errors caused by not accounting for a star right on the other side of that boundary. A double-star that crosses a grid boundary would fly apart as each star found itself on opposite sides of the boundary. So that is done is each star-to-star interaction is calculated for all stars in the grid, and for all stars one grid away. It's not until you get two grids away that the center of mass method is used.
For Eve: All ships would see everything in their grid, and everything in all the grids one layer out. It would not be until you cross the second grid boundary that an object would vanish from view. Now, assuming reasonable minimum grid sizes, you could never have two ships a kilometer apart, and not see each other.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2287
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 20:41:13 -
[89] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:CCP may have said Grid Fu in general isn't an exploit. That doesn't mean specific uses of Grid Fu aren't an exploit. CCP will reimburse for some cases of Grid Fu meaning that they are likely to regard a specific person deliberately creating that particular type of Grid Fu time and time again as an exploit.
There is room for both to be true. So.... Don't abuse it, don't be a **** about it. Yeah. CPP says anything that's an unintended consequence that they don't want to fix is not an exploit.
On Grid Fu, create a grid line near a customs office in a wh. Anchor a mobile depot a few k from the gridline. In short order a resident wh'lr will discover the depot and attempt to put it into reinforced, bomb the person through the grid line, you can position your bombers so that the bombs cross the line a few seconds before they explode :) No escape.
Can also do the same with a bubble in the middle of nowhere. They'll scan it down and try to blow it up and you can bomb across the line when they do.
It circumvents the 10 second delay that a person is supposed to get before bombs explode.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Mr Duffo
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
79
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Posted - 2015.03.27 21:27:58 -
[90] - Quote
too long didnt read, for the state? |
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
158
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Posted - 2015.03.27 23:08:12 -
[91] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Too busy shiptoasting to log in and strike Though one could level the same accusation at myself also Actually, I rather doubt that it's the same accusation right now. My wife just had our second child(literally yesterday), so while I'm a tad busy, now that she's finally not having a high risk pregnancy (and the thrice weekly doctor visits that entailed), my schedule should free up quite a bit in the near future. But anyway, as far as my happiness goes. While I thank the random NPC alt for looking after my well being, I'm doing just fine.
Since Kaarous position is nothing is wrong it is obviously an exploit. Just cant be fixed yet due to old code. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
1169
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Posted - 2015.03.28 03:36:06 -
[92] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote: He rebuilds Harleys in the livingroom. I took a Harley 1100cc for a ride. Horrible bike. Drove like a car on low revs, vibrated like crazy, need fat heavy arms to damp the handle bar vibrations. Accelerated out of a corner, it kicked into high revs and threw me across the corner instead of taking me around it. If that iron gate had been closed, I would have been dead. Tore up someone's garden though.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
SOV is stagnant because Low Sec is not the next step from High Sec and a viable place to grow alliances to the point they can challenge Null alliances.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Trevor Dalech
Dalechar Pest Control
100
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Posted - 2015.03.28 05:16:51 -
[93] - Quote
If you want to remove grid fu, you have to come up with an alternative.
Realize that: Having everyone in system on the same grid would cause to servers to explode from the load. Thus we need small grids. Having fixed grids would mean people popping over grid lines all the time, which would result in a very weird combat experience but can just as easily be "exploited" by someone who understands it.
The logical solution seems to be to dynamically enlarge grids when needed, hence grid fu.
If you want to claim that deliberately exploiting grid mechanics should be claimed to be an exploit, you have to come up with a way to detect it. However realize that grids change sizes all the time, almost every player action changes the grid. Mind boggling grid fu can easily happen by accident (it's happened to me a couple of times making perches.) you don't want to be labeling half the playerbase as exploiters.
Lastly, you're not being duped, you're not at a disadvantage. There is no reason you can't use grid fu as well, it's a level playing field. |
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