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Serene Repose
2502
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Posted - 2015.03.26 12:58:30 -
[1] - Quote
As long as players can manipulate the actual shape of the playing board, and in a way that is virtually undetectable with certainty, the game is rigged. You cannot believe what you're looking at. What is Grid Fu? Take some time and read this.
GRID FU A Practical Manual (By Goonwaffles)
How is this not an exploit? Hmmm?
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
759
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:01:11 -
[2] - Quote
How exactly would you have the server partition grids?
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
289
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:01:37 -
[3] - Quote
Posting in a cloaky grr goon thread.
Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity.
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Memphis Baas
260
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:03:57 -
[4] - Quote
It's been linked periodically since that article was written (quite a long time ago).
From what I understand, it takes a long time to set up (you have to manipulate it in specific ways with ships), which makes it somewhat difficult to use on a whim or when enemies are around.
So I think CCP is considering the amount of effort required to change the grid code (which affects everything in space) vs. just how much usage this exploit sees, and the benefits / damages it causes, and you can see the result of that consideration (no action taken).
In any case, keep in mind that discussing exploits on the forums is prohibited. |
Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:04:05 -
[5] - Quote
Why would it be an exploit?
It's clever use of game mechanics. No one is exploiting a weakness in design or code.
The fact that space works this way is by design. Furthermore does it add quite a lot to the game, because it adds another tactical element.
And besides that, manipulated grids are only really reliable from dow tkms to downtime and can be manipulated even further by anyone else.
Also... nice looks. You didn't reply to my mail. :( |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
759
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:08:20 -
[6] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:In any case, keep in mind that discussing exploits on the forums is prohibited. So, I mean, change your mind and don't call it an exploit if you want to discuss it (oops too late I guess). I think most people here are mature enough to understand the difference between discussing an exploit, and discussing whether something that isn't an exploit should be considered one.
I say most, because there are inevitably a few numbskulls who crop up and conflate the two.
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12291
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Do you whine about everything? I mean, this is some pretty long standing stuff here, well known by the devs and players alike, and you are up in arms like you just heard about it.
So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
759
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:15:15 -
[8] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? I'm starting to think Serene has a taste for hoop earrings and plaid blouses.
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
269
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:16:58 -
[9] - Quote
yeah as one that used to incap pos mods all day in a solo battleship I used to abuse the gun range, and I would pod people in low sec from extreme range, then ccp changed that I guess they finally considered it an exploit to out fire the gun range at gates and pos's. Now the stupid things fire at anything that can be seen. no matter how many sebo's I put on a ship can only target 249.99kms which doesn't even allow me to do a strike and play gridfu if I tried.
EVERYTHING IS A GAME MACHANIC UNTIL CCP DECIDES OTHERWISE
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12291
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:18:36 -
[10] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? I'm starting to think Serene has a taste for hoop earrings and plaid blouses.
And this haircut.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Remiel Pollard
Against All Odds.
6559
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:22:30 -
[11] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote: How is this not an exploit?
Let's hear you explain how it is one first.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Moshi
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:22:35 -
[12] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Do you whine about everything? I mean, this is some pretty long standing stuff here, well known by the devs and players alike, and you are up in arms like you just heard about it.
So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now?
You don't strike me as a happy soul. |
Paranoid Loyd
4387
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:22:42 -
[13] - Quote
4/10 nicely done
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Remiel Pollard
Against All Odds.
6559
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:25:14 -
[14] - Quote
Moshi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Do you whine about everything? I mean, this is some pretty long standing stuff here, well known by the devs and players alike, and you are up in arms like you just heard about it.
So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? You don't strike me as a happy soul.
He doesn't usually strike anyone at all but I'm sure he has his reasons.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Serene Repose
2502
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:30:26 -
[15] - Quote
Get a good list of the posters to this thread who "don't see a problem here". They are practitioners. They may as well be saying, "The emperor does SO have clothes on! You just can't SEE them."
Anywhere else in the forum it's claimed you can't prove a negative. Right off the bat I'm told to. Uh huh.
I just came down with yesterday's rain. (Quite a few rapid responses for a "Nothing here. Move along.")
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
9176
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:31:10 -
[16] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Moshi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Do you whine about everything? I mean, this is some pretty long standing stuff here, well known by the devs and players alike, and you are up in arms like you just heard about it.
So do you just rotate complaining topics, or did you seriously only find out about this just now? You don't strike me as a happy soul. He doesn't usually strike anyone at all but I'm sure he has his reasons. Too busy shiptoasting to log in and strike
Though one could level the same accusation at myself also
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
24140
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:31:29 -
[17] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote: How is this not an exploit?
From: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Grid_Manipulation
In CCP's own words:
Quote:This whole process is quite complex but not an exploit of game mechanics.
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
EVE:Valkyrie pilot unmasked (her name is Ran)
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TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
1056
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:Why would it be an exploit?
It's clever use of game mechanics. No one is exploiting a weakness in design or code.
An exploit is by definition clever use of game mechanics until it is removed from the game for being an exploit... Skynet was clever use of game mechanics...
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
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Remiel Pollard
Against All Odds.
6560
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:45:03 -
[19] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:Eve Solecist wrote:Why would it be an exploit?
It's clever use of game mechanics. No one is exploiting a weakness in design or code.
An exploit is by definition clever use of game mechanics until it is removed from the game for being an exploit... Skynet was clever use of game mechanics...
Well... no, skynet is not very clever at all. A trained ape can figure out how to assist fighters, without the training. Grid-fu on the other hand is somewhat trickier, but not an exploit, as posted by Sibyyl above.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
291
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:49:55 -
[20] - Quote
Wow, that manual has a high degree of high school math textbook feel to it. Well, if you omit words like AIDS and cancer at least. It looks more professional than any report I ever compiled.
Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity.
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Soldarius
Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent
1196
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:56:39 -
[21] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:As long as players can manipulate the actual shape of the playing board, and in a way that is virtually undetectable with certainty, the game is rigged. You cannot believe what you're looking at. What is Grid Fu? Take some time and read this. GRID FU A Practical Manual (By Goonwaffles)How is this not an exploit? Hmmm?
I'm sorry, but were you under the impression that all of space in this game is one giant continuous grid? You clearly didn't read the manual. Just warping to some place in space creates a grid if you are the first thing there. Expanding a grid happens automatically when you move around and drop something as a place holder.
That manual is great for learning exactly how grids work and how to use CCP-designed grid mechanics to your advantage.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
6183
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Posted - 2015.03.26 14:00:36 -
[22] - Quote
Is this an exploit? No, not really.
Should the capability for a player (or group of players) to manipulate the boundaries of the grid within the game mechanics due simply to understanding obscure properties of the game engine that are not easily discovered and used by the player base as a whole (and grants an distinct advantage) be completely reworked? Yeah, it really should be.
This is a great example of one of those things that CCP is firmly trying to eradicate.
Players should succeed through superior use of known mechanics, not though superior knowledge of game related trivia and technical limitations.
While the fact that Grid Fu is an unintended possibility for players to take advantage of is not in itself reason to eliminate it (unexpected game play is great)... but it's arcane nature, power to grant a huge advantage, and obvious immersion destroying nature make it a prime candidate for a rewrite.
View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
6183
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Posted - 2015.03.26 14:05:13 -
[23] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Serene Repose wrote:As long as players can manipulate the actual shape of the playing board, and in a way that is virtually undetectable with certainty, the game is rigged. You cannot believe what you're looking at. What is Grid Fu? Take some time and read this. GRID FU A Practical Manual (By Goonwaffles)How is this not an exploit? Hmmm? I'm sorry, but were you under the impression that all of space in this game is one giant continuous grid? You clearly didn't read the manual. Just warping to some place in space creates a grid if you are the first thing there. Expanding a grid happens automatically when you move around and drop something as a place holder. That manual is great for learning exactly how grids work and how to use CCP-designed grid mechanics to your advantage. I'm pretty sure the OP and everyone in this thread is well aware of Grid Fu and how it is done.
On the other hand, if you think that CCP preference or intention is that battles in EVE be won or lost (or even heavily influenced by) manipulating the grid structure mechanics in place you are deluding yourself.
Like many things in EVE that need to go away, the only reason this exists is because it's removal would require a major rewrite of some very fundamental code. Not that CCP has gotten to a place where some of those major rewrites are starting to happen, I could easily see this as making it's way onto the "Finally fix this nonsense" list.
View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
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bonkerss
MASS A DEATH Mordus Angels
3
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Posted - 2015.03.26 14:11:44 -
[24] - Quote
we unintentionally gridfued the other night while dropping a can at a "wrong" spot. resulting in the loss of the entire fleet because we warped on our ping at 10 but we were like maybe a couple k off the other grid. unfortunately the people in the other grid could see us and we got locked and killed by stuff we could neither see nor lock on our grid.
so basically you can set the grid up so that one side can see the other but the other side is not aware that a whole fleet is on top of them. also funny is the doctor bubbled us and we couldn't warp even tough the bubble was not visible on our grid.
if you think this is smart use of game mechanic then im not really sure whats wrong with you:) this awfully looks like a horrible exploit. at least ccp reimbursed the whole fleet. but this tactic can easily be abused and people probably do it on a daily basis.
so **** gridfu and make it a bannable offense |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12292
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Posted - 2015.03.26 14:12:26 -
[25] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Too busy shiptoasting to log in and strike Though one could level the same accusation at myself also
Actually, I rather doubt that it's the same accusation right now.
My wife just had our second child(literally yesterday), so while I'm a tad busy, now that she's finally not having a high risk pregnancy (and the thrice weekly doctor visits that entailed), my schedule should free up quite a bit in the near future.
But anyway, as far as my happiness goes. While I thank the random NPC alt for looking after my well being, I'm doing just fine.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
24142
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Posted - 2015.03.26 14:42:01 -
[26] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: This is a great example of one of those things that CCP is firmly trying to eradicate.
You mean.. like Hyperdunking? CCP is not firmly patterned to do anything.
Quote:Players should succeed through superior use of known mechanics, not though superior knowledge of game related trivia and technical limitations.
Players should succeed through research, risk, and intelligence. Grid fu fits perfectly within the EVE sphere.
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
EVE:Valkyrie pilot unmasked (her name is Ran)
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
9177
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Posted - 2015.03.26 14:42:54 -
[27] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Too busy shiptoasting to log in and strike Though one could level the same accusation at myself also Actually, I rather doubt that it's the same accusation right now. My wife just had our second child(literally yesterday), so while I'm a tad busy, now that she's finally not having a high risk pregnancy (and the thrice weekly doctor visits that entailed), my schedule should free up quite a bit in the near future. But anyway, as far as my happiness goes. While I thank the random NPC alt for looking after my well being, I'm doing just fine. congratulations mate. know im only poking fun
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12299
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Posted - 2015.03.26 14:46:46 -
[28] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:congratulations mate. know im only poking fun
I thought I was just poking fun.
And then we conceived the second one.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
21
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Posted - 2015.03.26 14:48:07 -
[29] - Quote
I demand Serene getting stage 1 freckles, and ... ... we need another rallying thread for clothes which allow Sibyyl to reveal even more skin.
Also... I look soooooo achuran, but still like myself. ^_^
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Hicksimus
Xion Limited Resonance.
567
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Posted - 2015.03.26 14:48:31 -
[30] - Quote
I like to imagine EvE arguments about "gameplay mechanics" in terms of how stupid they would sound in other games.
Let's say you have a large group of people playing/observing a game of Monopoly....it's usually very long, very boring and very full of people getting angry. The game eventually ends many days later with many ruined friendships and at worst somebody steals money during a bio break.
But have a large group of EvE players playing/observing Monopoly and suddenly things go full ******. One of the players realizes that the board is quite small and he can punch the other players in the face for an advantage. If that player happens to be from the blue doughnut everybody jumps in to declare that it's legitimate because if the game designers didn't want people to punch others in the face they'd have made the board larger because it's a gameplay mechanic while all of the normal people in the world wonder WTF is wrong with EvE players.
Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you?
Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
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