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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:11:00 -
[61]
Yeah, I also (slightly) worried about the lowslot ECM boost module. Why do we need anything like that? And if we do, don't we need a "sensor damp booster" and "painter booster" and "tracking disruptor booster", too?
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Hellspawn01
Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:13:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Garia666 Cant we just ban ECM to ECM ships only and let them have there roles but not on standard ships? Since ECM warfare isnt a fun way of PvP anyway.
I agree with that. Give ECM ship "ECM slots" for ECM mods. 1-2 slots for ECM frigs, recons, some more for BB and maybe 6 for scorps. Caldari -> jamming, not Caldari -> no jamming but other ECM possible.
Ship lovers click here |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:15:00 -
[63]
Originally by: James Lyrus In all honesty, I think that's mostly because tracking disruptors and damps aren't properly understood. ECM is a 'no brainer'. Fire it, get a percentage chance of messing someone up. Used appropriately, RSDs and Tracking disruptors are probably about as effective - 50% less tracking/optimal will severely hurt turret ships, and you can feasibly deploy that against several at once.
Add that to the fact that the 'non ECM ships' have enough mids to be ok at ECMs, but also enough firepower to fight out of a wet paper bag, makes that an appealing alternative to e.g. a blackbird.
The point is that, for example, tracking disruptors are about as powerful vs turret ships as ECM, yes, but unlike ECM are completely ineffective vs everything else.
What makes ECM so strong is that it has no ineffective targets and *still* is as strong as specialized EW.
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Doxs Roxs
White Wolves Defence league The OSS
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:18:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 Change ECM to what it was 3 years ago. 4 jammers to lock down a ship, not 1 multi/racial jammer to jam a carrier while flying a frig. This would give ECM ships their special touch back.
I can only agree, why not make it a static number and give ECM ships a bonus to jam strength. Perhaps a wery strong bonus so that ECM ships would only need 1-2 jammers to lock down an enemy ship. If the enemy ships has ECCM it should take much more though. But it would bring a proper use for ECCM and it would give ECM ships a proper role again.
Regards
/Doxs
After almost half a year, why is my face just a '!' ? And please fix the Javelin T2 rail ammunition... |
Thut'ankh Amon
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:20:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Thut''ankh Amon on 23/10/2006 14:24:08 hmm i was always thinking about posiblity of changing ecm - total lock down, to partial- ie using one module to jam battleship that can lock up to for example 7 targets, and pilot having invested skills into locking so many at once, being negated by just % chance based module sounded wrong to me. If the % chance of jamming got changed into - strenght + how many locks it can break ( for example racial with 6-7 strenght and jamming 2-3 locks, it would then require more then just 1 multispec of doom, or one lucky cycle on frig/cruiser to totaly disable ship many times bigger then them)
Edit: Skills or ECM boat bonuses would then for example increase strenght or number of locks
Originally by: Noluck Ned *Notify* Concord is on their way to help you, just hang in there, they are waiting for overlord to respawn |
Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:23:00 -
[66]
I am not sure how this will work out in the field but trying out never hurts...
I still hope CCP considers doing a general E-war overhaul in Kali 2 or whenever. There were many good ideas in the E-war thread that deserve consideration...
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:24:00 -
[67]
The changes look pretty good to me but two of the above points are very valid.
The EOS and/or Information Warfare links need looking at. (Perhaps including a gang mod to improve sensor damps and making the sensor strength improving mod worth fitting)
The "ant blinding an elephant" syndrome will still exist
Consider making it so that ships can only jam those one size larger than they are.
A frigate or destroyer can jam frigates and cruisers A cruiser or battlecruiser can jam frigates, cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships A battleship can jam frigates, cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, and capital ships
Thus the blackbird (plus it's t2 variants) and the scorpion remain powerful within their role. But we dont see EW fitted frigates being fielded whenever a cyno is seen in system.
Alternatively you could make it so that while still chance based a single jammer can't overcome targets above a certain sensor strength. A hybrid of the old and the new systems. This would stop Scorpions being able to lock down 8 battleships in fleet battles or your entire group in small gang PvP.
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Nemtar Nataal
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:30:00 -
[68]
After having been a EW pilote for some time now i wonder whats wrong making ECM modules slightely more powerfull all across the board and make the harder to fit eccept for dedicated ECM ships. I mean ECM is definetly a support skill you cant run it by your self and sourvive in baddle and well in baddle you are alwayes primory. Personally i think the sad thing about ECM is that your are not able to use it in sole, all the other recon ships demonstrates how well the dedicated recon skills do in baddle. Where as the rook and the fancon are more like logistic ships then actual pvp ship. I really like the changes but i don see them making ECM more usefull for solo players. And well then there are the question of the conuter messuers i mean i have never managed to jame a battleship running counter measuers for ecm and well i doo have lvl 4 on all related skills. So yet again i only see ECM to bee the most usless skill to carry around in a 1 on 1 baddle unless you meraculesly manage to fitt a microwarp drive to your EW ship and a 2 point warp scrambler, and pray to good that your opponent are not tanking. And no dont get me wrong I never wanted to be anything but a ECM pilote i was just hoping to feel a little more confetent that i wouldnt be killed when i logged in and got into my ECM ship. And well i dont...if you look at nature especially deep see animals have managed to develope counter measurs to the conunter measurs to be able to sourvie the general Darvin therory. So where is the ECM evolution, im still waiting for somting counter counter measurs for a fleet baddle and no max speed and a warp out point dosnt doo it for me as a baddleship takes you down in absolutly no time. So i favor the changes but i dont thing they are going to solve the overall problem ECM pilotes experience in pvp in general.
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NTRabbit
Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:31:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Aramendel
The point is that, for example, tracking disruptors are about as powerful vs turret ships as ECM, yes, but unlike ECM are completely ineffective vs everything else.
What makes ECM so strong is that it has no ineffective targets and *still* is as strong as specialized EW vs their specific target.
How often have you flown a specialist ECM ship like the Falcon, Rook or Scorpion against a drone specialist ship? It's not a pretty result.
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Novan Leon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:34:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Novan Leon on 23/10/2006 14:34:31
Quote: Step 1: Lower the jam strength of all ECM modules, Step 2: Increase the ship bonuses of all dedicated ECM ships, Step 3a: Create a new low slot module that boosts the jam strength of all ECM modules, Step 3b: Stacking nerf the jam strength attribute.
So let me get this straight.
1. ECM modules default strength is decreased 2. ECM ships get a bonus to ECM to compensate 3. Add low slot modules that increase strength 4. Add decreasing benefits for jam strength
Thus...
- Default ships would need to use low slots in order to bring ECM up to it's current effectiveness. - ECM ships would have ECM at it's current effectivenes by default and be given the ability to make it even stronger via the low-slots.
If this is really the way it works out, it sounds good to me. Jamming still removes your opponents ability to wage battle, but... we'll see how it works out.
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Rafein
Eye of God Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:35:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Hmm, looks rather interesting and as a plus this could boost Amarr. Just imagine it, Apoc (or Arma if you're a cheapskate) with highs full of medium guns or NOS, meds filled with ECM, 5-6 ECM boosters in lows and LARII/Damage Control/capmod...what would that turn the Amarr bs into? A Scorpion in disguise?
what part of stacking penalty on the low slot module don;t ou understand?
As for everyhitng else, I dunno. The Caldari ECM ships are already weak in the damage department, making them lose a tank as well might be a bit of a stretch, but we'll see how the ships bonuses come into play.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:37:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/10/2006 14:38:56 Im very happy with the changes, and Im glad to see that Tuxford seems to have understood the core of the problem, and are taking steps to correct it. Thanks to all the ecm whiners who have put the message through. This will hopefully make Eve pvp alot more fun and change ships like ecm Raven and ecm Dominix into what they are designed to be, instead of Scorpion replacements.
Finally some pvp where people are able to lock eachother!
Tuxford, I feel you have listened to the players on this one, and for that Im very grateful. Just make sure to nerf multis enough on normal ships and finish the job one time for all.
And dont make the low slot booster modules powerful enough to turn the armor tankers into the new ecm Ravens and Domis!
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Rexthor Hammerfists
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:40:00 -
[73]
great changes, makes me even more lookin forward to kali. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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Spanker
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:41:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Tuxford seems to have understood the core of the problem
Yes, it's a start. But I'd rather have the old system back though, haven't sat in a scorp since they started with this chance based rubbish
- Shpank |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:45:00 -
[75]
Originally by: NTRabbit How often have you flown a specialist ECM ship like the Falcon, Rook or Scorpion against a drone specialist ship? It's not a pretty result.
It's 100% identical with damperners and tracking disruptors there. And also can be avoided if the drone ship is engaged while it's droens have another target or are not yet deployed.
But in addition to this tracking disruptors are completely ineffective vs missle users and have only very limited effects on ACs and blasters and frigate weapons if you are in a cruiser or bigger. Damperners also are not very effective vs fast frigates or fast cruisers. They are more limited than ECM.
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:50:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 23/10/2006 14:50:36 *ahem* My racial EW idea : http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=413947&page=1
Could even make do it in a tiered approach. Give the correct racial ships a bonus to bring the effect back to a middling level and the dedicated EW ships a bonus to where you want to be the maximum effect to be.
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MECTO
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:51:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Garia666 Edited by: Garia666 on 23/10/2006 14:37:15 well if a BS can get jammed just by one single frigate i think thats not good.
u forgot to add that u should be invulnarable in all aspects to player who have less skills points than u. missiles just don't hit and guns misses drones don't wanna attack u
Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:52:00 -
[78]
In all fairness Armor tanking is allready a sacrifice you make compared to shield tanking because shields regenrate and armor doesn't. I do feel you are overlooking that fact.
This solution will still allow a shield tanker to efficiently fit a multispec without sacrificing anything other then that one med slot that he would have allready sacrificed whilst an armor tanker will need to sacrifice part of his tank now as well.
So jeah it boils down to more Caldari love and Amarr plus Gallente nerf.
I'd rather see a solution where the jammers simply cant be fitted or onlined if the ship has some sort of tank. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
T'Renn
Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:55:00 -
[79]
What about ECM drones? -- Eh... 24k? I can't make a sig that doesn't suck and keep it under 24k. Oh well.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:03:00 -
[80]
Originally by: DrAtomic
This solution will still allow a shield tanker to efficiently fit a multispec without sacrificing anything other then that one med slot that he would have allready sacrificed whilst an armor tanker will need to sacrifice part of his tank now as well.
The strength of the multis will be severly nerfed, as I understand the blog. So while you can fit multis in the medium slots, I hope the chance to jam a battleship is never greater than 5% per multi on non-EW ships. They can make them very powerful on EW ships, thats fine. We just need to get away from their use on normal ships, or at least give them a good chance of failing even with a full stack of them.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
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Stouman
Black Avatar Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:04:00 -
[81]
Have you considered reducing the cycle time? Maybe from 20 to 10 seconds?
My first thought was that could be a more gentle way to start the ECM nerf.
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NTRabbit
Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:06:00 -
[82]
Edited by: NTRabbit on 23/10/2006 15:07:54
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: NTRabbit How often have you flown a specialist ECM ship like the Falcon, Rook or Scorpion against a drone specialist ship? It's not a pretty result.
It's 100% identical with damperners and tracking disruptors there. And also can be avoided if the drone ship is engaged while it's droens have another target or are not yet deployed.
But in addition to this tracking disruptors are completely ineffective vs missle users and have only very limited effects on ACs and blasters and frigate weapons if you are in a cruiser or bigger. Damperners also are not very effective vs fast frigates or fast cruisers. They are more limited than ECM.
However ships with Dampeners do not rely on those modules as their only form of defence - they have tanks as well. Tracking disruptors work well if you use them from an appropriate range, such as outside of the drone envelope, and again they are also capable of fitting a defence other than the disruptor.
ECM is weak against drones, Dampeners are weak against other short range setups, Tracking Disruptors are weak against missiles. However, each one is pretty awesome at snapping everything else.
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Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:08:00 -
[83]
I am concerned about the low slot item. Mainly Caldari ECM ships except for perhaps the Scorpion doesn't have enough low-slots for those.
A plate and Armour Repairer is almost necesary to survive in those ships - mainly due to drones killing you rather fast... Drones are good against ECM ships
Pinky
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:10:00 -
[84]
Wow, the sun's raising for Vigil and Bellicose!
Tux, so far I really like all the sekseh things you came up with for the Minmatar fleet.
(If your sarcasm detector didn't just blow up, you better have it checked.) --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Tennotsukai
Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:22:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark I am concerned about the low slot item. Mainly Caldari ECM ships except for perhaps the Scorpion doesn't have enough low-slots for those.
A plate and Armour Repairer is almost necesary to survive in those ships - mainly due to drones killing you rather fast... Drones are good against ECM ships
Pinky
I think you will find thats the point..
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Garramon
Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:29:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Shabesa
Originally by: Alex Harumichi True. Tux, I hope that a look at the Information Warfare gang links is on the "todo" list at some point. It's already a lot weaker than the other 3 gang bonus sets, and after this we'd have the weird situation where a Gallente gang link boosts (only) a Caldari EW type...
What he said.
I would just like to echo this point. I am not too scared seeing as I fly with a mainly Caldari corp though .
It REALLY seems a bit daft for Gallente's Command ship to be boosting the Caldari strength. Now if we added RSD's and Tracking Disruptors to the Gallente boost that would be snazzy, probably overpowered even. For some reason the fact that ~50% of the people replying to the thread fail to read and understand the point of the OP is hilarious.
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Mihae
Bad Karma.
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:29:00 -
[87]
I like it _____
Adapt or Die! |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:30:00 -
[88]
Simple, obvious changes.
This will help go back to the situation where ECM was done by ECM ships. If the devs think that an ECM ship should be able to jam multiple targets so be it, there is certainly potential for that to be balanced. A non-ECM ship should have a negligble chance of jamming someone else unless they gear for specifically ECM.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:47:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Garramon
Originally by: Shabesa
Originally by: Alex Harumichi True. Tux, I hope that a look at the Information Warfare gang links is on the "todo" list at some point. It's already a lot weaker than the other 3 gang bonus sets, and after this we'd have the weird situation where a Gallente gang link boosts (only) a Caldari EW type...
What he said.
I would just like to echo this point. I am not too scared seeing as I fly with a mainly Caldari corp though .
It REALLY seems a bit daft for Gallente's Command ship to be boosting the Caldari strength. Now if we added RSD's and Tracking Disruptors to the Gallente boost that would be snazzy, probably overpowered even.
The information warfare link were really supposed to boost all EWAR strengths. It needs a bit of manual labor and could possibly break something. I'll start working on adding the other effects today or tomorrow though. _______________ |
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:50:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 23/10/2006 15:51:10
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Hllaxiu Edited by: Hllaxiu on 23/10/2006 12:48:02 So the ecm strength gang mod is now just as useless as the sensor strength one? Poor Eos...
True. Tux, I hope that a look at the Information Warfare gang links is on the "todo" list at some point. It's already a lot weaker than the other 3 gang bonus sets, and after this we'd have the weird situation where a Gallente gang link boosts (only) a Caldari EW type...
Oh, I got over that Caldari thing long time ago, thats currently the case and will continue to be the case. The real problem is that of the three information warfare mods, two have major issues, and all three effect ECM effectiveness/strength.
ECM Range - stacks only with ship bonuses, is a reasonable amount (22.5% max with mindlink, typical 12% - this is between a little over 1 level of a skill bonus and 2 levels, thats good!)
ECM Strength - Now we have a problem. This is a 2% module with 12% typical and 22.5% max. With heavily nerfed ECM strength, and ECM "damage mods" that are subject to the stacking penalty, I have to wonder: What are the percentages on the mod? If they are quite large, we could end up in the situation of the shield/armor resistance mods, where they are only useful on untanked ships. I doubt that we'll see very many useful un"damage modded" ECM ships. If they aren't using ECM they'll be using damps or something else, or simply tracking comps. This means that your Eos pilot with his racial mind link will be trying to boost the Scorps in the gang, but will be put at the end of the module stacking line and ends up contributing less than 1% to strength. (Even if this mod is changed to all ECM types, this issue will remain. Leadership mods should be on a seperate stack, from other modules, just like the leadership skills)
Sensor Strength - Stacking penalized attribute, tech 1 modules are 50%, tech 2 60%. Typical stats on the leadership mod vary from less than 1/3 to 1/2 that. Yay...
Needless to say, I mostly run skirmish mods on my Eos... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
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