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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:56:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Garia666 Edited by: Garia666 on 23/10/2006 14:37:15 well if a BS can get jammed just by one single frigate i think thats not good. The basic jamming defence should looked at tech II ships and BS should have better radar, ladar, ect, ect.
And how does the stacking work on all modules or just one? let say you have 3 low ECM strength modules and in med 4 ECM muli spec. Than you will have 4 ECM modules with the power of 3 stacking .. that way The ECM will be far more overpowered .. or will you only be able to use 1 single ECM in ur med slot? like the ab and mw ? then those ships will have more med slot availlable..
Cant we just ban ECM to ECM ships only and let them have there roles but not on standard ships? Since ECM warfare isnt a fun way of PvP anyway.
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Edit what about more types of FoF weapons An laser only ship can`t fit FoF missles.
Sorry m8, but small ships are already at a disadvantage, BS is pretty much a solo-pwn-mobile already, able to fit any role from tackler (heavy) to anti-frig/cruiser/BS upto support of any sorts. Not to mention its cost efficiency over HACs, which were supposed to be BS killers but came out as pimped up cruisers. EW-boats are gonna get called primary all the time so the ships that carry EW must be numerous and cheap to replace.
Also what was it all about giving each race a racial EW, why cant all races use any EW but each race has a immunity vs a specific type of EW. Oh and anyone remember the beach-ball-effect for tracking disruptors?
IMO these changes are not going to solve the ECM problems, but overpower caldari (especially since the rest of the EW systems suck in comparision). The problem is as stated above somewhere: 1/3 chance to disable 10 modules is overpowered.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:57:00 -
[92]
Originally by: NTRabbit However ships with Dampeners do not rely on those modules as their only form of defence - they have tanks as well. Tracking disruptors work well if you use them from an appropriate range, such as outside of the drone envelope, and again they are also capable of fitting a defence other than the disruptor.
ECM is weak against drones, Dampeners are weak against other short range setups, Tracking Disruptors are weak against missiles. However, each one is pretty awesome at snapping everything else.
*Again*, the other EW cruisers/recons do not, I repeat not have a better tank the the caldari ones. With the exeption of the cruse/pilgrim, but those is mainly due to the energyboost from the Nos.
Also, to repeat, SD and TD have exactly the same, 100% identical problems with drones. With the range bonus multipsecs have pretty much the same range as TDs, btw, so are just as able to work outside the 60 km drone range, btw. And, as said, drone problems are avoidable. When the drones are autoattacking your gangmate who attacked a few seconds before your jam they won't do anything to you. SD & TD can do nothing to avoid their additional weak targets.
And, lastely, both TD and SD are not very effecient vs frig targets. ECM is even MORE effecient vs those.
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IHaveTenFingers
Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2006.10.23 16:07:00 -
[93]
I bet someones come up with a similar idea on ECM nerfing, but anyway here goes: How about a medium ranked skill, perhaps rank 3 or 4, that adds 5% or 7.5% sensor strength per level. However, its racially based so we would have
Gravimetric Sensor Augmentation Radar Sensor Augmentation Ladar Sensor Augmentation Magnetometric Sensor Augmentation
or something like that. feel free to flame away, forum trolls.
------------------------------------ My Opinions in no way reflect those of other members of ADVANCED Combat and Engineering.
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Octavio Santillian
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.23 16:13:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Trac3rt Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/10/2006 14:16:01 So ECM has gone from an overpowered broken module that everyone can use, to a broken overpowered module that only the Caldari can use, and will get an EW 'damage mod' lowslot module to make them even more broken and overpowerd. ...
QFT
There are two problems with ECM: 1) the absolutely crushing devastation of its effect, 2) and to a lesser extent the degree to which it is chance based.
The way I see it, ships that can afford to fit ECM will still do so after the fix because the effect of ECM is completely overpowering. So we will have is a situation were fitting become even less interesting because people who can afford to sacrife even more slots to ECM will do so, and those who can't afford to fit ECM will be totally, and I mean totally screwed!
You want a true ECM solution. Make ECM a dedicated module like a cove ops cloak, and give every race at least 1 dedicated ECM ship in the three primary classes (i.e. frigate, cruiser, and BS). The Caldari can keep their ECM recons to give them a slight ECM edge. ItÆs just that simple.
Another option is to change the effect of ECM so that it only breaks existing locks, thus forcing opponents to relock. This way ECM is more powerful when mixed with dampeners and ECCM is more powerful when mixed with sensor boosters.
IÆm glad to see that there is a realization that ECM is crazy overpowered, but this solution is just another F*&@ing Caldari boost.
ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
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Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 16:23:00 -
[95]
Where's this stuff come from about ECM not being too strong on dedicated ECM ships ? It's overpowered there, not just on the non-dedicated ships that fit them..
This'll make ECM even more overpowered by adding those low slot modules and keeping the strength the same for the dedicated jamming ships.
Will have to be a big reduction to stop people from using them on non-dedicated ECM ships too.
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Evelgrivion
Cohort. Storm Armada
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Posted - 2006.10.23 16:34:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 23/10/2006 16:36:33
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Where's this stuff come from about ECM not being too strong on dedicated ECM ships ? It's overpowered there, not just on the non-dedicated ships that fit them..
This'll make ECM even more overpowered by adding those low slot modules and keeping the strength the same for the dedicated jamming ships.
Will have to be a big reduction to stop people from using them on non-dedicated ECM ships too.
No fight should be perfectly even and fair. Jammer ships have their purpose, and this change will still let them serve their purpose - but, they will have weaker defenses now and no one else will be able to use ECM as a spare "WTFPWN" button.
Excellent use of the nerfbat IMO, tuxford
»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/
Its Cohort. with a C. |
sakana
Purgatorial Janitors Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.10.23 16:37:00 -
[97]
w1n
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Mikal Drey
Angels and Demons
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Posted - 2006.10.23 16:47:00 -
[98]
hey hey
Why not move ECM nods to hi slots. ? IMHO its not the blackbirds and scorps that really anoyed me with ECM but everyone else and his mother fitting ECM.
Just as command ships use gang mods in hi slots (therefore effectivly removing their offensive capabilities) Wouldnt moving ECM to hi slots do pretty much the same thing ? I think there would be alot less combat ships fitted with ECM's
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IHaveTenFingers
Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2006.10.23 16:49:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey
Why not move ECM nods to hi slots. ? IMHO its not the blackbirds and scorps that really anoyed me with ECM but everyone else and his mother fitting ECM.
Just as command ships use gang mods in hi slots (therefore effectivly removing their offensive capabilities) Wouldnt moving ECM to hi slots do pretty much the same thing ? I think there would be alot less combat ships fitted with ECM's
Really good idea actually. ya hear that, devs?
------------------------------------ My Opinions in no way reflect those of other members of ADVANCED Combat and Engineering.
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Octavio Santillian
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.23 16:52:00 -
[100]
Originally by: IHaveTenFingers
Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey
Why not move ECM nods to hi slots. ? IMHO its not the blackbirds and scorps that really anoyed me with ECM but everyone else and his mother fitting ECM.
Just as command ships use gang mods in hi slots (therefore effectivly removing their offensive capabilities) Wouldnt moving ECM to hi slots do pretty much the same thing ? I think there would be alot less combat ships fitted with ECM's
Really good idea actually. ya hear that, devs?
Indeed!
ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
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Cmdr Sy
Off Balance Sheet Entity
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Posted - 2006.10.23 17:12:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 23/10/2006 17:15:45
It's a start, but you had better get the balance right, otherwise Raven and Dominix with plates and ECM damage mods in lows, ECM in mids, will have their current functionality back instantly.
My personal preference would have been to boost the strength of all ECCM and backup arrays by 25% from their present values - ie from 48% to 60% for a Warded or T2 racial backup array and so on, while lowering the cpu requirements.
Essentially, a single T2 multispec on a ship without an ECM bonus, such as a Thorax doing 5.76 jam, would find it so hard to jam a cruiser or BS fitted with a countermeasure mod, that people would have an incentive to fit them, and a disincentive to waste their one or two spare mids on ECM. Dedicated ECM ships with bonuses would still be important in fleets, but with less of their their current crippling edge.
An even easier way of rebalancing ECM would have been to increase the base sensor strength of all ships by 25%. Low enough to still give dedicated EW platforms an important role in fleet combat, high enough to ensure that pilots without a ship bonus to ECM would benefit considerably less from fitting one.
My question - I know that these two options would have been discussed by Devs, because they are the first thing that come to mind. Why were they discounted?
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Mirasta
Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.23 17:17:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Octavio Santillian
Originally by: IHaveTenFingers
Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey
Why not move ECM nods to hi slots. ? IMHO its not the blackbirds and scorps that really anoyed me with ECM but everyone else and his mother fitting ECM.
Just as command ships use gang mods in hi slots (therefore effectivly removing their offensive capabilities) Wouldnt moving ECM to hi slots do pretty much the same thing ? I think there would be alot less combat ships fitted with ECM's
Really good idea actually. ya hear that, devs?
Indeed!
If you Swapped the slots on a scorp to accomadate this you yould have an 8/6/4 Allowing for jamming and a raven style passive tank and an insane jamming capability.
The main down sides of the jamming ships is they can be torn appart in any fleet/gang situation. Jamming ships are meant to be good at that they do like a sniper at long range or a megathron in close.
I like the changes, the real situation where ECM becomes over powerd is when a thorax or tempy fit one multispec and it toally breaks fights. Allong with the following changes i would suggest you increse the cap usage of the multispec to discourage ships from fitting them as this is effectivly a a better tank than dual reppers if it works so it should cost the same cap wise.
Racial ECM is more of a fleet/gang fit where there effectiveness become less apprent as there will be some many targets floating round jamming them all out will be impossible and getting 2 scorp pilots to evenly spread there jam would be such a nightmare if you can achive it you deserve it. If your fitting racials then your risking wasting alot of slots during a fight where jammers will have little sucess jaming anything outside there racial target.
And Yes i am an ECM pilot, i invested as much skills in EW as most chars my age have done in gunnery and missles.
Of couse, You are now reading my sig. |
Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards
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Posted - 2006.10.23 17:30:00 -
[103]
Liking the changes! _______________
The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
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Agrikaan
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2006.10.23 17:34:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Cmdr Sy Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 23/10/2006 17:15:45
My personal preference would have been to boost the strength of all ECCM and backup arrays by 25% from their present values - ie from 48% to 60% for a Warded or T2 racial backup array and so on, while lowering the cpu requirements.
I agree, I would like to know why ECCM isn't boosted. Or together with nerfing (ok, changing) ECM. A few slots for ECCM, and you reduce the risk of loosing all your 10 slots for 1 enemy ECM slot, with 30% chance.
What you need to survive ECM now is simply having more ships in your fleet than the other side... i.e. Blobs.
But then again, I'd like to see modules for defense against other attacks as well, such as NOS. Ok I'm Amarr, and NOSsing reduces everyone capability to tank. But non-Amarr ships can still fire back (unless jammed eheh), Amarr ships can't.
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MysticNZ
Solstice Systems Development Concourse
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Posted - 2006.10.23 17:35:00 -
[105]
No more multispec tempest then :( -=====- Xorus is teh nub :D I heard that *beats player with big stick* now be a good carebear and mine me some veldspar - Xorus |
Agrikaan
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2006.10.23 17:37:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Octavio Santillian
Originally by: Trac3rt Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/10/2006 14:16:01 So ECM has gone from an overpowered broken module that everyone can use, to a broken overpowered module that only the Caldari can use, and will get an EW 'damage mod' lowslot module to make them even more broken and overpowerd. ...
QFT
There are two problems with ECM: 1) the absolutely crushing devastation of its effect, 2) and to a lesser extent the degree to which it is chance based.
The way I see it, ships that can afford to fit ECM will still do so after the fix because the effect of ECM is completely overpowering. So we will have is a situation were fitting become even less interesting because people who can afford to sacrife even more slots to ECM will do so, and those who can't afford to fit ECM will be totally, and I mean totally screwed!
You want a true ECM solution. Make ECM a dedicated module like a cove ops cloak, and give every race at least 1 dedicated ECM ship in the three primary classes (i.e. frigate, cruiser, and BS). The Caldari can keep their ECM recons to give them a slight ECM edge. ItÆs just that simple.
Another option is to change the effect of ECM so that it only breaks existing locks, thus forcing opponents to relock. This way ECM is more powerful when mixed with dampeners and ECCM is more powerful when mixed with sensor boosters.
IÆm glad to see that there is a realization that ECM is crazy overpowered, but this solution is just another F*&@ing Caldari boost.
And oh, I agree here too...
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Callidus Adept
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Posted - 2006.10.23 17:53:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Callidus Adept on 23/10/2006 17:55:31
Originally by: Octavio Santillian
Originally by: Trac3rt Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/10/2006 14:16:01 So ECM has gone from an overpowered broken module that everyone can use, to a broken overpowered module that only the Caldari can use, and will get an EW 'damage mod' lowslot module to make them even more broken and overpowerd. ...
QFT
There are two problems with ECM: 1) the absolutely crushing devastation of its effect, 2) and to a lesser extent the degree to which it is chance based.
The way I see it, ships that can afford to fit ECM will still do so after the fix because the effect of ECM is completely overpowering. So we will have is a situation were fitting become even less interesting because people who can afford to sacrife even more slots to ECM will do so, and those who can't afford to fit ECM will be totally, and I mean totally screwed!
You want a true ECM solution. Make ECM a dedicated module like a cove ops cloak, and give every race at least 1 dedicated ECM ship in the three primary classes (i.e. frigate, cruiser, and BS). The Caldari can keep their ECM recons to give them a slight ECM edge. ItÆs just that simple.
Another option is to change the effect of ECM so that it only breaks existing locks, thus forcing opponents to relock. This way ECM is more powerful when mixed with dampeners and ECCM is more powerful when mixed with sensor boosters.
IÆm glad to see that there is a realization that ECM is crazy overpowered, but this solution is just another F*&@ing Caldari boost.
Quoting this. Unless there is a hidden 'Step 4: Introduce dedicated cruiser and battleship ECM platforms for other races' this fix is going to cement the dominance of the Caldari over EWAR. Gallente get only frak'd since they've got the celestis and it's recon offspring. Minnies and Amarr are just gonna get to sit there and flog their useless tracking disruptors and target painters and hope that maybe their grandkids will be able to lock something when the scorpions and blackbirds are done with them.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.23 17:58:00 -
[108]
I think that ECCM needs to be addressed as well. It needs to be EXTREMELY effective when compared to how it is now. Right now the best defence against ECM is... more ECM. ONE ECCM module needs to reduce your chances to be jammed by about 90% if it's a midslot module, and about 75% if it's a low slot module.
You're fitting *SPECIFICALLY* to counter ECM, so the fitting mod should be able to do precisely that. None of this wasting 3 low slots and one mid slot for a total of 72+ sensor strength on a battleship only to be jammed for a full 50% or more of the time during a fight. ECCM should make you damned near unjammable with only ONE MOD. 99% of the ships out there don't have a mid slot to spare while flying solo, and the ones that do are *SURPRISE* ECM ships themselves.
If I'm wasting a WHOLE SLOT to defend myself against a specific type of attack, I am going to EXPECT IT TO WORK, with a HIGH DEGREE OF RELIABILITY. Currently this isn't the case.
Furthermore, what is the deal with backup sensor arrays? Why can't we add some LADAR sensors to Gallente ships or Gravimetric sensors to Minimtar? There are currenly "Multispectral" sensor backup arrays that boost sensor strength over a wide variety of types, but there is no way to add additional *TYPES* of sensors to our ships.
This would add more variety and unpredictability (at a huge cost of dedicating 1-2 modules to sensors) to ship setups with respect to their sensor type and strength, and what ECM you will or won't need to jam them. Multispectrals will still be the catch all, but if you use a racial Gallente ECM on my Megathron, and I have a LADAR backup array fitted and by doing so add 15 LADAR strength to my BS I should be able to avoid being jammed by a Gallente racial jammer all together.
Right now Players have literally zero EFFECTIVE options when it comes to defending against ECM except more ECM. The upcoming suggested changes sound great, but I'd like to see a HUGE increase in the effectiveness of ECCM since you're wasting slots to specifically counter a particular threat.
Because I said so...
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Eaykho Garende
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:00:00 -
[109]
WOW! How kewl is it to see a game designer choose to lower a power rather than raising everything else up. The constant power escalation that ruins many games is nipped in the bud...
Thanks!
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Konner Kyle
Four Horsemen
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:00:00 -
[110]
Leave ECM alone.
They're only whining because they can't get their hands bloody.
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fisty
RONA Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:04:00 -
[111]
what about making jamming ships? instead of having the ability to fit ecm on a different type of ship???
i mean for example i can easily take a deimos throw in a hypnos multispec use 4 med ecm drones and go roaming around 0.0 solo scan for npcers or miners in belts and gank the living **** outa them without my shields even droping as their jammed as hell, i mean hey its cool for me easy fights and easy isk from loot if any good, but think about the person that might outdamage me and kill me if i wouldnt have that power?
or wait another example
a**** domi setup, nosf all the way through and med riged for jamming, no ship is gona survive that apart if its get jamed first...
ecm at the moment is WAY WAY to powerfull tool in this game... and backup arrays are jsut **** and dont help you at all
so get a grip and come up with a better idea, hey thats me thinking maybe others as i seen like the idea, but just making it a low slot modules is useless, on my deimos i just get rid of of one dmg mod and stick that inside and i have the same effect no problem...
so this idea in my opinion...no go just waste of time tbh, maybe im too drastic to make only ecm ships and other ships not able to jam i dont know
but the way things are now and youre trying to do is just silli in my view
Ciao |
infraX
Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:39:00 -
[112]
Sounds good. ECM ships I can live with, it's those damn tempest pilots with 5 mids and space for a multispec that annoy me
Signautre removed - not suitable for a teen audience - Serathu ([email protected]) fixed:
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:46:00 -
[113]
Yet another one stupid decision. Instead of revamping ECM to be useful on usual ship and extremely useful on ECM ships, tuxford begins their number again(increase this, decrease that). ECM is reality. ECM changes the battlefield. ECM allows weaker side to catch initiative. It seems that CCP loves only brute force. Good. Please, nerf everything except big guns. Let's Eve will be so stupid and straightforward as as WoW or Lineage.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.23 19:12:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Zixxa Yet another one stupid decision. Instead of revamping ECM to be useful on usual ship and extremely useful on ECM ships, tuxford begins their number again(increase this, decrease that). ECM is reality. ECM changes the battlefield. ECM allows weaker side to catch initiative. It seems that CCP loves only brute force. Good. Please, nerf everything except big guns. Let's Eve will be so stupid and straightforward as as WoW or Lineage.
ECM doesn't allow the weaker side to "catch the initiative". It allows anyone with extra midslots to completely erase an opponents high/mid/low slots. ECM will still be available and useful. Just not to the horribly overpowered degree that it currently is. :P
Because I said so...
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Cmdr Sy
Off Balance Sheet Entity
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Posted - 2006.10.23 19:16:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Zixxa Yet another one stupid decision. Instead of revamping ECM to be useful on usual ship and extremely useful on ECM ships, tuxford begins their number again(increase this, decrease that). ECM is reality. ECM changes the battlefield. ECM allows weaker side to catch initiative. It seems that CCP loves only brute force. Good. Please, nerf everything except big guns. Let's Eve will be so stupid and straightforward as as WoW or Lineage.
While I disagree with CCP's chosen fix, ECM is brute force. I do enjoy using distributed ECM in medium-sized gangs, I have advocated it many times in the past, as it adds a whole new team dynamic and allows a numerically smaller force to even out the number of guns firing. However, the absurd developments in the 1v1 department have made this untenable.
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31i73
BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.23 19:21:00 -
[116]
While you are at it, can you do the color coding on racial jammers too, please?
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Jillian Cross
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Posted - 2006.10.23 19:49:00 -
[117]
sounds promising, i was kinda worred about training up my ECM skills befor the blog came out, (mainly worred by drastic changes) but being caldari my mind is now at ease :P
a thought about the low slots ECM mods thou i was wondering if diffrent mod options could be added(other than strength)
like a low slot mod that drops ECM range and gives a cap bounus or visa versa or somthing along thous lines
oh and plz plz colour code racials
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Merin Ryskin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.23 20:09:00 -
[118]
The thing I'm worried about with forcing ECM to a few specific ships is it's so completely against EVE's basic principles. This is supposed to be a class-free game, with as much freedom to choose your setups as possible. And ECM should be one of those options... not a one-module win button, but ships other than the blackbird/griffin/scorpion should be able to effectively use it if you devote enough effort/skill points to it.
So I'd like to see some numbers... assuming the low slot modules are used, what would happen to an ECM ferox, for example? What kind of jam strength would be realistic? Will say three or four ECM modules (with or without low slot boost) still have a good chance of shutting down an opponent, or will they be a complete waste of a slot?
Of course there's a fairly simple alternative, cut the strength, but give all ECM modules a passive bonus: "X% to strength of all ECM modules". So the one-module win button is completely eliminated, but ewar specialists can still make the choice to spend their ship's mid slots on ECM instead of tackle/tank/cap/etc.
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Turkantho
Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.23 20:34:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Tuxford
Step 3a: Create a new low slot module that boosts the jam strength of all ECM modules,
k when do we get our DRONE low slot mods ? like more drone cargo in exchange for normal cargo or drone damage mods ? and an option to bind drone commands (launch / orbit / attack) with keys so we drone users can F1, F2, F3 as well ? ________
Asgar[D]¦ |
Sgt Blade
Imperial Space Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.23 20:54:00 -
[120]
im in love
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