Originally by: Fragm/thedragoon

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So we know what we are doing YES
do we expect this to be all over in 2 weeks NO
are we going to see it through to the end YES

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Originally by: Seleene

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Hey, kieron, it's okay to sticky this thread. You don't have to wait on me to say so.

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Quote:

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Step 1: Lower the jam strength of all ECM modules

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Originally by: Seleene

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Hey, kieron, it's okay to sticky this thread. You don't have to wait on me to say so.

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Originally by: Fragm/thedragoon

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So we know what we are doing YES
do we expect this to be all over in 2 weeks NO
are we going to see it through to the end YES

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Originally by: Aramendel

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The problem here is: the other races EW ships/ recons - which (exept the amarr one maybe) do not have a better tank than the blackbrid/recon variations - usually also fit ECM instead of their own racial EW.

What is with the balance of the different EW systems to each other?

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Originally by: Seleene

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Hey, kieron, it's okay to sticky this thread. You don't have to wait on me to say so.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Step 1: Lower the jam strength of all ECM modules,
Step 2: Increase the ship bonuses of all dedicated ECM ships,
Step 3a: Create a new low slot module that boosts the jam strength of all ECM modules,
Step 3b: Stacking nerf the jam strength attribute.

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Originally by: Kusotarre

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I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.

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Originally by: Ishana

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Meh... I'm not very anthousiastic about these changes...

It's a start I guess, but I was hoping for something better tbh.

It sounds to me that ecm gets nerfed across the board (good thing) EXCEPT for caldari.
Jup that's it i'm training for them.... (/me throws away 15mil of minnie skillpoints)

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Originally by: Kala Veijo

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Looks like im going to fit cap boosters to BB after this. Still, love it.

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Originally by: Zarch AlDain

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The suggestions look good, although as the others have said we will have to see how the numbers work out.

On the blackbird I do like the suggestion of changing the cap need to being an ewar strength bonus...that does seem to leave them weaker than they are now though unless the bonus takes their actual jam strength to stronger than currently.

Perhaps one of the low slots could become a mid slot or there could be a lower bonus but an extra mid slot? It already has a lot of mid slots though, so perhaps an extra low slot would be the way forwards?

With an extra low slot people could fit an ECM strength boost in the low slot, or fit extra cap recharge, or even extra tank.

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Originally by: Hellspawn01

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Change ECM to what it was 3 years ago. 4 jammers to lock down a ship, not 1 multi/racial jammer to jam a carrier while flying a frig. This would give ECM ships their special touch back.

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Originally by: Hellspawn01

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Change ECM to what it was 3 years ago. 4 jammers to lock down a ship, not 1 multi/racial jammer to jam a carrier while flying a frig. This would give ECM ships their special touch back.

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Originally by: Hllaxiu

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Edited by: Hllaxiu on 23/10/2006 12:48:02
So the ecm strength gang mod is now just as useless as the sensor strength one? Poor Eos...

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Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon

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Originally by: Hellspawn01

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Change ECM to what it was 3 years ago. 4 jammers to lock down a ship, not 1 multi/racial jammer to jam a carrier while flying a frig. This would give ECM ships their special touch back.

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Agreed.. I stopped using ew n missils back when they changed it and trained minmatar..

But realisticly changing it back wouold require so much work and then u got all the skils ppl have trained. So I think thats something we have to realize is just a drem :P

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Originally by: Vargrh

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Edited by: Vargrh on 23/10/2006 13:24:37
Or, how about going back to the days where it stacked. If someone wants to resist ECM they should put ECCM on.

If you guys spent half the time trying to find and fix the bugs that cause the horrendous lag spikes, rather then worrying about making subtle changes to module attributes, we'd all be much happier for it.

Once the issues making the game unplayable are resolved, I might be more willing to consider time spent changing module attributes to have been well spent.

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Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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True. Tux, I hope that a look at the Information Warfare gang links is on the "todo" list at some point. It's already a lot weaker than the other 3 gang bonus sets, and after this we'd have the weird situation where a Gallente gang link boosts (only) a Caldari EW type...

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Originally by: Ather Ialeas

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Hmm, looks rather interesting and as a plus this could boost Amarr. Just imagine it, Apoc (or Arma if you're a cheapskate) with highs full of medium guns or NOS, meds filled with ECM, 5-6 ECM boosters in lows and LARII/Damage Control/capmod...what would that turn the Amarr bs into? A Scorpion in disguise?

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Originally by: Nicholai Pestot

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Originally by: Vargrh

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Edited by: Vargrh on 23/10/2006 13:24:37
Or, how about going back to the days where it stacked. If someone wants to resist ECM they should put ECCM on.

If you guys spent half the time trying to find and fix the bugs that cause the horrendous lag spikes, rather then worrying about making subtle changes to module attributes, we'd all be much happier for it.

Once the issues making the game unplayable are resolved, I might be more willing to consider time spent changing module attributes to have been well spent.

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Do you honestly believe tuxford has anything to do with code optimistation at all?

Do you honestly believe tuxford is responsible for the physical state of the servers or upgrades to said servers?

Its like moaning at the cleaner that he should stop mopping the floors and help with server stability

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Originally by: Kunming

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ECM will still be pwnage but only on Caldari ships.

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Originally by: Kunming

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What about Minmatar's (non-existant) EW abilities

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Originally by: Kunming

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Amarr's useless (against missiles) tracking disruptors?

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Originally by: Kunming

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Edit: Oh and not to forget about gallente, who are supposed to be short-range fighters, who got long-range EW.

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Originally by: Vargrh

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Edited by: Vargrh on 23/10/2006 13:33:20

Originally by: Nicholai Pestot

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Originally by: Vargrh

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Edited by: Vargrh on 23/10/2006 13:24:37
Or, how about going back to the days where it stacked. If someone wants to resist ECM they should put ECCM on.

If you guys spent half the time trying to find and fix the bugs that cause the horrendous lag spikes, rather then worrying about making subtle changes to module attributes, we'd all be much happier for it.

Once the issues making the game unplayable are resolved, I might be more willing to consider time spent changing module attributes to have been well spent.

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Do you honestly believe tuxford has anything to do with code optimistation at all?

Do you honestly believe tuxford is responsible for the physical state of the servers or upgrades to said servers?

Its like moaning at the cleaner that he should stop mopping the floors and help with server stability

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If a company hired dozens of cleaners and next to no server support and I came in every day to a sparkling clean office, but the corporate network was always down or suffered horrendous lag spikes, I would comment for sure about the fact there were too many cleaners and not enough server admin. CCP seem intent on adding content update at the expense of stability (my opinion).

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Originally by: Ishana

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Meh... I'm not very anthousiastic about these changes...

It's a start I guess, but I was hoping for something better tbh.

It sounds to me that ecm gets nerfed across the board (good thing) EXCEPT for caldari.
Jup that's it i'm training for them.... (/me throws away 15mil of minnie skillpoints)

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When was the last time you saw a scorp in anything other than large fleet?

For that matter, I don't see many BBs in PvP either, although they're a little more common.

The ECM specialised ships aren't commonly used, because they trade off having no tank, and no firepower for being EWar ships. And ... well frankly, a raven or a dominix is a better choice for 'small gang/solo' pvp for fitting ECMs too.

So yes, the devil will be in the details, but I like this move.

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Originally by: Ather Ialeas

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Hmm, looks rather interesting and as a plus this could boost Amarr. Just imagine it, Apoc (or Arma if you're a cheapskate) with highs full of medium guns or NOS, meds filled with ECM, 5-6 ECM boosters in lows and LARII/Damage Control/capmod...what would that turn the Amarr bs into? A Scorpion in disguise?

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Originally by: Garia666

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Cant we just ban ECM to ECM ships only and let them have there roles but not on standard ships? Since ECM warfare isnt a fun way of PvP anyway.

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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In all honesty, I think that's mostly because tracking disruptors and damps aren't properly understood. ECM is a 'no brainer'. Fire it, get a percentage chance of messing someone up. Used appropriately, RSDs and Tracking disruptors are probably about as effective - 50% less tracking/optimal will severely hurt turret ships, and you can feasibly deploy that against several at once.

Add that to the fact that the 'non ECM ships' have enough mids to be ok at ECMs, but also enough firepower to fight out of a wet paper bag, makes that an appealing alternative to e.g. a blackbird.

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Originally by: Hellspawn01

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Change ECM to what it was 3 years ago. 4 jammers to lock down a ship, not 1 multi/racial jammer to jam a carrier while flying a frig. This would give ECM ships their special touch back.

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Originally by: Noluck Ned

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*Notify* Concord is on their way to help you, just hang in there, they are waiting for overlord to respawn

Originally by: Aramendel

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The point is that, for example, tracking disruptors are about as powerful vs turret ships as ECM, yes, but unlike ECM are completely ineffective vs everything else.

What makes ECM so strong is that it has no ineffective targets and *still* is as strong as specialized EW vs their specific target.

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Quote:

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Step 1: Lower the jam strength of all ECM modules,
Step 2: Increase the ship bonuses of all dedicated ECM ships,
Step 3a: Create a new low slot module that boosts the jam strength of all ECM modules,
Step 3b: Stacking nerf the jam strength attribute.

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Originally by: Ather Ialeas

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Hmm, looks rather interesting and as a plus this could boost Amarr. Just imagine it, Apoc (or Arma if you're a cheapskate) with highs full of medium guns or NOS, meds filled with ECM, 5-6 ECM boosters in lows and LARII/Damage Control/capmod...what would that turn the Amarr bs into? A Scorpion in disguise?

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Tuxford seems to have understood the core of the problem

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Originally by: NTRabbit

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How often have you flown a specialist ECM ship like the Falcon, Rook or Scorpion against a drone specialist ship? It's not a pretty result.

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Originally by: Garia666

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Edited by: Garia666 on 23/10/2006 14:37:15
well if a BS can get jammed just by one single frigate i think thats not good.

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Originally by: Kusotarre

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I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.

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Originally by: DrAtomic

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This solution will still allow a shield tanker to efficiently fit a multispec without sacrificing anything other then that one med slot that he would have allready sacrificed whilst an armor tanker will need to sacrifice part of his tank now as well.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: NTRabbit

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How often have you flown a specialist ECM ship like the Falcon, Rook or Scorpion against a drone specialist ship? It's not a pretty result.

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It's 100% identical with damperners and tracking disruptors there.
And also can be avoided if the drone ship is engaged while it's droens have another target or are not yet deployed.

But in addition to this tracking disruptors are completely ineffective vs missle users and have only very limited effects on ACs and blasters and frigate weapons if you are in a cruiser or bigger. Damperners also are not very effective vs fast frigates or fast cruisers. They are more limited than ECM.

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Originally by: Pinky Denmark

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I am concerned about the low slot item. Mainly Caldari ECM ships except for perhaps the Scorpion doesn't have enough low-slots for those.

A plate and Armour Repairer is almost necesary to survive in those ships - mainly due to drones killing you rather fast... Drones are good against ECM ships

Pinky

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Originally by: Shabesa

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Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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True. Tux, I hope that a look at the Information Warfare gang links is on the "todo" list at some point. It's already a lot weaker than the other 3 gang bonus sets, and after this we'd have the weird situation where a Gallente gang link boosts (only) a Caldari EW type...

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What he said.

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Originally by: Garramon

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Originally by: Shabesa

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Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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True. Tux, I hope that a look at the Information Warfare gang links is on the "todo" list at some point. It's already a lot weaker than the other 3 gang bonus sets, and after this we'd have the weird situation where a Gallente gang link boosts (only) a Caldari EW type...

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What he said.

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I would just like to echo this point. I am not too scared seeing as I fly with a mainly Caldari corp though .

It REALLY seems a bit daft for Gallente's Command ship to be boosting the Caldari strength. Now if we added RSD's and Tracking Disruptors to the Gallente boost that would be snazzy, probably overpowered even.

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Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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Originally by: Hllaxiu

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Edited by: Hllaxiu on 23/10/2006 12:48:02
So the ecm strength gang mod is now just as useless as the sensor strength one? Poor Eos...

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True. Tux, I hope that a look at the Information Warfare gang links is on the "todo" list at some point. It's already a lot weaker than the other 3 gang bonus sets, and after this we'd have the weird situation where a Gallente gang link boosts (only) a Caldari EW type...

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Originally by: Garia666

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Edited by: Garia666 on 23/10/2006 14:37:15
well if a BS can get jammed just by one single frigate i think thats not good.

The basic jamming defence should looked at
tech II ships and BS should have better radar, ladar, ect, ect.

And how does the stacking work on all modules or just one?
let say you have 3 low ECM strength modules and in med 4 ECM muli spec.
Than you will have 4 ECM modules with the power of 3 stacking .. that way The ECM will be far more overpowered ..
or will you only be able to use 1 single ECM in ur med slot? like the ab and mw ?
then those ships will have more med slot availlable..

Cant we just ban ECM to ECM ships only and let them have there roles but not on standard ships? Since ECM warfare isnt a fun way of PvP anyway.


-------------------------------------------

Edit what about more types of FoF weapons An laser only ship can`t fit FoF missles.

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Originally by: NTRabbit

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However ships with Dampeners do not rely on those modules as their only form of defence - they have tanks as well. Tracking disruptors work well if you use them from an appropriate range, such as outside of the drone envelope, and again they are also capable of fitting a defence other than the disruptor.

ECM is weak against drones, Dampeners are weak against other short range setups, Tracking Disruptors are weak against missiles. However, each one is pretty awesome at snapping everything else.

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Originally by: Trac3rt

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Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/10/2006 14:16:01
So ECM has gone from an overpowered broken module that everyone can use, to a broken overpowered module that only the Caldari can use, and will get an EW 'damage mod' lowslot module to make them even more broken and overpowerd. ...

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Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk

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Where's this stuff come from about ECM not being too strong on dedicated ECM ships ?
It's overpowered there, not just on the non-dedicated ships that fit them..

This'll make ECM even more overpowered by adding those low slot modules and keeping the strength the same for the dedicated jamming ships.

Will have to be a big reduction to stop people from using them on non-dedicated ECM ships too.

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Originally by: Mikal Drey

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hey hey

Why not move ECM nods to hi slots. ? IMHO its not the blackbirds and scorps that really anoyed me with ECM but everyone else and his mother fitting ECM.

Just as command ships use gang mods in hi slots (therefore effectivly removing their offensive capabilities) Wouldnt moving ECM to hi slots do pretty much the same thing ? I think there would be alot less combat ships fitted with ECM's

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Originally by: IHaveTenFingers

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Originally by: Mikal Drey

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hey hey

Why not move ECM nods to hi slots. ? IMHO its not the blackbirds and scorps that really anoyed me with ECM but everyone else and his mother fitting ECM.

Just as command ships use gang mods in hi slots (therefore effectivly removing their offensive capabilities) Wouldnt moving ECM to hi slots do pretty much the same thing ? I think there would be alot less combat ships fitted with ECM's

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Really good idea actually. ya hear that, devs?

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Originally by: Octavio Santillian

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Originally by: IHaveTenFingers

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Originally by: Mikal Drey

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hey hey

Why not move ECM nods to hi slots. ? IMHO its not the blackbirds and scorps that really anoyed me with ECM but everyone else and his mother fitting ECM.

Just as command ships use gang mods in hi slots (therefore effectivly removing their offensive capabilities) Wouldnt moving ECM to hi slots do pretty much the same thing ? I think there would be alot less combat ships fitted with ECM's

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Really good idea actually. ya hear that, devs?

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Indeed!

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Originally by: Cmdr Sy

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Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 23/10/2006 17:15:45

My personal preference would have been to boost the strength of all ECCM and backup arrays by 25% from their present values - ie from 48% to 60% for a Warded or T2 racial backup array and so on, while lowering the cpu requirements.

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Originally by: Octavio Santillian

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Originally by: Trac3rt

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Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/10/2006 14:16:01
So ECM has gone from an overpowered broken module that everyone can use, to a broken overpowered module that only the Caldari can use, and will get an EW 'damage mod' lowslot module to make them even more broken and overpowerd. ...

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QFT

There are two problems with ECM: 1) the absolutely crushing devastation of its effect, 2) and to a lesser extent the degree to which it is chance based.

The way I see it, ships that can afford to fit ECM will still do so after the fix because the effect of ECM is completely overpowering. So we will have is a situation were fitting become even less interesting because people who can afford to sacrife even more slots to ECM will do so, and those who can't afford to fit ECM will be totally, and I mean totally screwed!

You want a true ECM solution. Make ECM a dedicated module like a cove ops cloak, and give every race at least 1 dedicated ECM ship in the three primary classes (i.e. frigate, cruiser, and BS). The Caldari can keep their ECM recons to give them a slight ECM edge. ItÆs just that simple.

Another option is to change the effect of ECM so that it only breaks existing locks, thus forcing opponents to relock. This way ECM is more powerful when mixed with dampeners and ECCM is more powerful when mixed with sensor boosters.

IÆm glad to see that there is a realization that ECM is crazy overpowered, but this solution is just another F*&@ing Caldari boost.

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Originally by: Octavio Santillian

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Originally by: Trac3rt

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Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/10/2006 14:16:01
So ECM has gone from an overpowered broken module that everyone can use, to a broken overpowered module that only the Caldari can use, and will get an EW 'damage mod' lowslot module to make them even more broken and overpowerd. ...

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QFT

There are two problems with ECM: 1) the absolutely crushing devastation of its effect, 2) and to a lesser extent the degree to which it is chance based.

The way I see it, ships that can afford to fit ECM will still do so after the fix because the effect of ECM is completely overpowering. So we will have is a situation were fitting become even less interesting because people who can afford to sacrife even more slots to ECM will do so, and those who can't afford to fit ECM will be totally, and I mean totally screwed!

You want a true ECM solution. Make ECM a dedicated module like a cove ops cloak, and give every race at least 1 dedicated ECM ship in the three primary classes (i.e. frigate, cruiser, and BS). The Caldari can keep their ECM recons to give them a slight ECM edge. ItÆs just that simple.

Another option is to change the effect of ECM so that it only breaks existing locks, thus forcing opponents to relock. This way ECM is more powerful when mixed with dampeners and ECCM is more powerful when mixed with sensor boosters.

IÆm glad to see that there is a realization that ECM is crazy overpowered, but this solution is just another F*&@ing Caldari boost.

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Originally by: Zixxa

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Yet another one stupid decision. Instead of revamping ECM to be useful on usual ship and extremely useful on ECM ships, tuxford begins their number again(increase this, decrease that). ECM is reality. ECM changes the battlefield. ECM allows weaker side to catch initiative. It seems that CCP loves only brute force. Good. Please, nerf everything except big guns. Let's Eve will be so stupid and straightforward as as WoW or Lineage.

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Originally by: Zixxa

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Yet another one stupid decision. Instead of revamping ECM to be useful on usual ship and extremely useful on ECM ships, tuxford begins their number again(increase this, decrease that). ECM is reality. ECM changes the battlefield. ECM allows weaker side to catch initiative. It seems that CCP loves only brute force. Good. Please, nerf everything except big guns. Let's Eve will be so stupid and straightforward as as WoW or Lineage.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Step 3a: Create a new low slot module that boosts the jam strength of all ECM modules,

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Originally by: Zarthanon

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Looks sexy TBH... yeah baby, YEAH!

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Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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The thing I'm worried about with forcing ECM to a few specific ships is it's so completely against EVE's basic principles. This is supposed to be a class-free game, with as much freedom to choose your setups as possible.

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Originally by: rodgerd

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Personally I'd like to see ECM, if remaining chance based, move to an S-curve rather than a linear probability, so low strengths rarely jam, while high strengths almost always jam, with a rapid rise from, say 2/3 - 1, with the 0-2/3 being lower than it is now.

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Originally by: rodgerd

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Personally I'd like to see ECM, if remaining chance based, move to an S-curve rather than a linear probability, so low strengths rarely jam, while high strengths almost always jam, with a rapid rise from, say 2/3 - 1, with the 0-2/3 being lower than it is now.

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Originally by: Kaell Meynn

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What about us non-caldari pilots who maxed ECM and use it on non-caldari ships? Can we get the SPs back? Or will 1 lowslot make us equal in strength to a blackbird again? If not, this sounds like a boost to Caldari, and a nerf of everyone else who trained ECM under the current rules.

My ECM ships which I put millions of SPs into ECM for include...


Helios
Celestis (damps suck, I use ECM(
Dominix

Alternatively, give these 3 ships ECM boost as well.

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Originally by: Mistress Suffering

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Suggestion addition: ECCM effectiveness should be increased.

Whereas ECM is usable against any target, by fitting ECCM you are choosing to fortify yourself against a very narrow means of attack. Something narrowly useful should be much stronger against that one item.

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Originally by: Mainreh Rhonaki

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Originally by: rodgerd

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Personally I'd like to see ECM, if remaining chance based, move to an S-curve rather than a linear probability, so low strengths rarely jam, while high strengths almost always jam, with a rapid rise from, say 2/3 - 1, with the 0-2/3 being lower than it is now.

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This has a positive side-effect in that it implicitly fixes the ECCMs for most cases, as moutning one will likely put you in the lower end of the S-curve. E.g:

Today:
ECM 10 / sensor 10 == 100%
ECM 10 / ECCMd sensor 20 == 50%

Tomorrow:
ECM 10 / sensor 10 == 100%
ECM 10 / ECCMd sensor 20 == 25% (or whatever)

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Originally by: D2O HeavyWater

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mmmmm sounds ok ish, although the scorp only has 4 low's to begin with seems harsh to force one of them slots for ecm.

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Originally by: arjun

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i personally like the changes that went into ecm. although ill miss my 3 1600mm plates in the low slots of the scorp.
there is however a problem and issue i dont understand: why is it much harder to jamm close by ships than jamming ships which are quite far away? as far as i understand there is no tracking involved in ecm modules.
i have maxed ecm skills and in gang with my other char that has information warfare maxed and sits in an eos my optimal range of the jammers is 206 km if i remember right. i have no trouble jamming those snipers out there but jamming the blastertron which pops up next to me gives me a real headache.
can anybody explauin here why this is so? was it a mistake to train those ecm range skills up because it rather hampers me sometimes?

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Originally by: gfldex

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With those changes nothing will really change. The problem with ECM is not that it works on all ships. It more that it prevents ppl from fighting at all.

Anybody who flies in medium sized gangs regulary know this problem. You have an enemy that looks ok from a number point of view. They may even outnumber you but your skills are generaly higher and you fleet composition is good too. But then those two scorps show up and you have to turn around because you wont even be able to give them losses while being taken out one by one.

The effect, which is redering one or even more targets helpless, is way to strong. I know there are drones but you can counter that by being out of drone range. This strong effect which can only be countered by faster locktime and ECM leads to less fighting.

And reasons for less fighting in a time where ppl are not willing anymore to sacrifice a ship, because it's a pain in the *beep* to make those 80 jumps to jita to get replacements in ships and mods, is not what we need.

We need a working anti missile system and to get rid of this fighting prevention system that's ECM today.

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Originally by: gfldex

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With those changes nothing will really change. The problem with ECM is not that it works on all ships. It more that it prevents ppl from fighting at all.

Anybody who flies in medium sized gangs regulary know this problem. You have an enemy that looks ok from a number point of view. They may even outnumber you but your skills are generaly higher and you fleet composition is good too. But then those two scorps show up and you have to turn around because you wont even be able to give them losses while being taken out one by one.

The effect, which is redering one or even more targets helpless, is way to strong. I know there are drones but you can counter that by being out of drone range. This strong effect which can only be countered by faster locktime and ECM leads to less fighting.

And reasons for less fighting in a time where ppl are not willing anymore to sacrifice a ship, because it's a pain in the *beep* to make those 80 jumps to jita to get replacements in ships and mods, is not what we need.

We need a working anti missile system and to get rid of this fighting prevention system that's ECM today.

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Originally by: Turkantho

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just out of curiosity was there already a post complaining about Caldari geting more powerful ?

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Mistress Suffering

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Suggestion addition: ECCM effectiveness should be increased.

Whereas ECM is usable against any target, by fitting ECCM you are choosing to fortify yourself against a very narrow means of attack. Something narrowly useful should be much stronger against that one item.

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Oh but it is, have you ever tried fitting yourself with an ECCM 1 per med, and 1 per low slot? with that you can increase your ships Radar strength to about 60-70, with proper best T1 modules. That I believe given the ECM chance based theory makes it VERY improbably that you will be jammed. How much more do you need?

After all an ECM pilot is fitting 5 ECM's to be effective (usually). Do you expect to couterattack a Specialized ship like the Scorpion for example with a single module fitted while at the same time you keep you ARMOR/SHIELD TANK and DAMAGE MODS ???

geez.., lol if you really want to be specially equipped, fit 5 ECCM like the ECM pilot does, i can tell you then noone will be able to jam you with that 5% chance to jam you after the ECCM bonuses!

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Grow up Gallente FANBOY and see things from another point of view!

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Originally by: Agrikaan

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Mistress Suffering

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Suggestion addition: ECCM effectiveness should be increased.

Whereas ECM is usable against any target, by fitting ECCM you are choosing to fortify yourself against a very narrow means of attack. Something narrowly useful should be much stronger against that one item.

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Oh but it is, have you ever tried fitting yourself with an ECCM 1 per med, and 1 per low slot? with that you can increase your ships Radar strength to about 60-70, with proper best T1 modules. That I believe given the ECM chance based theory makes it VERY improbably that you will be jammed. How much more do you need?

After all an ECM pilot is fitting 5 ECM's to be effective (usually). Do you expect to couterattack a Specialized ship like the Scorpion for example with a single module fitted while at the same time you keep you ARMOR/SHIELD TANK and DAMAGE MODS ???

geez.., lol if you really want to be specially equipped, fit 5 ECCM like the ECM pilot does, i can tell you then noone will be able to jam you with that 5% chance to jam you after the ECCM bonuses!

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I guess you haven't been the ECM target much. I've flown Apocalypses with 74 in Radar strength, in a fleet of other Amarr ships, also at similar levels. And when we've met a similar sized force, with an ECM ship or two, we've been jammed beyond help. ECCM does not work IMO. At all. I don't even fit them anymore, I just don't engage ECM ships.

I've started to use it more though, and how mad some have been... I guess they didn't expect ECM from an Amarr ship. If so, they too would have not engaged.

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Originally by: Noriath

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Edited by: Noriath on 24/10/2006 18:20:09

What ECM really needs is a lot LESS range, not more.

Caldari is the long range race, so it would make sense if they use ECM to force people to fight at long range. But you can't fight at all when you're facing ECM, so basicly the mod and the ships stay just as idiotic as they are right now, and the whole concept of having an EW mod that can ONLY be defended against with another module that gives you no other bonuses whatsoever is still stupid. You fit ECCM and you come up against ECM ships you win, and if you come up against something else you lose. Great system, the strategic depth of it is sooo amazing...

Also I wonder if Tux is ever thinking about factional warfare. I don't think so, because he seems to be hellbent to keep Caldari the most effective race in Eve no matter the cost. Stupid ECM makes it IMPOSSIBLE already to fit a racial fleet, because you will get slammed with racial jammers and never get to fire a single shot.

Whatever, all theese changes are just so pointless, the entire ECM system is flawed in its core and everyone who has payed any atention to what works and what doesn't in MMORPGs knows it. It's Mezzwars all over again...

And seriously, how ridiculous must this game get with forcing absoloutly everyone to train Caldari Battleship? Once the bonuses kick in you can't fly any sensible EW ship unless you have Caldari skilled? Well that was a pointless 3 million Skillpoints to grab...

I mean, I do in fact have maxed out ECM skills, and I still think the entire system has to be changed. The extreme range of ECM is stupid. Sensor Dampers should have more range, since Sensor Dampers can be countered by comming closer. ECM should be counterable by being far away...

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Originally by: Noriath

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Yea, boo hoo, if anything existed that I couldn't jam into oblivion this game would be oh so unfair...


Ever used Sensor dampers? They are countered by Sensor Boosters, the most common medslot mod in Eve, and they don't work on short range ships. Now that's an EW mod that is well balanced.

But nooo, uber ECM can't possibly have drawbacks...

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Originally by: Noriath

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Bla Bla Bla... I have my ECM skills maxed out, and I will lose all functionality for them after this change, what are you complaining about?

People who train Caldari have NO idea what it's like to train for a long time, you train up one ship tree and after Kali you get 3 very powerful and different ships ships on the same skill... All other races basicly get a selection of pretty similar ships and have to train Caldari on top of all that if they want missiles and ECM.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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We have NO idea what is't like to train for a long time?

silly, in order for you to be effective in each one, you have to master (mean lvl 4/5 on all):
1. Misiles (thank heaven I do)
2. ECM (I am getting there)
3. Gunnery (for that shiny new BS) - not even close.

Mastering all takes up a pretty long time, not to mention supporting skills, but that's just obvious. In return you need to do is cover gunnery for all your ships. No need to train misiles at all.

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Originally by: Scorpyn

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You've still not considered partial jamming? And no EW drone changes planned?

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Originally by: ProphetGuru

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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We have NO idea what is't like to train for a long time?

silly, in order for you to be effective in each one, you have to master (mean lvl 4/5 on all):
1. Misiles (thank heaven I do)
2. ECM (I am getting there)
3. Gunnery (for that shiny new BS) - not even close.

Mastering all takes up a pretty long time, not to mention supporting skills, but that's just obvious. In return you need to do is cover gunnery for all your ships. No need to train misiles at all.

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Er you can't be serious. I'll give ya amarr... but gallente have far higher training reqs then caldari users ever will... and Minnie users skill req's would make you cry and delete your char.... or switch back to caldari to get back on easy mode.

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Originally by: Jevnikar

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Basicly if 1 rook could jamm 5 bs with almost no luck you can surley see the advantage the squad had by haveing only 1 of those in gang.

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Originally by: Noriath

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Edited by: Noriath on 25/10/2006 06:08:42
ECM still sucks, the basic concept of "You can't target" is just over the top powerful in a game where targeting is synonymous with being able to activate 95% of all modules that affect someone else then you in any way. You know what the balance issue is with ECM? As long as it exists there has to be a way for it to work, and as long as it works it's overpowered. There is the issue, plain and simple. No ammount of tweaking or trying to restrict ECM even more heavily to Caldari ships will change that.

And yes, other races have plenty of reason to complain, because they are getting shafted in this game. ECM is a huge staple of Eve combat, it can tip the scales in any engagement in your favour, yet only one single race gets it. What the hell is up with that? Now if Caldari had nothing else to show for themselves that would be one thing, but they get a whole variety of other great ships on top of that.

Look at Amarr, what do they get? Gunships, gunships, more gunships and they aren't even better then anyone elses. There is just no appeal in training that race anymore. Gallente are still OK, the Megathron is decent both at range and cose up, a big dronebay really pays right now, and the Dominix is great 1 on 1, even without ECM, you can still do sensor dampers. Minmatar? They need just about every skill in the game to fly their ships to their full potential, and then they aren't much better then anyone elses either. Their speed is next to worthless, because there are only three types of movement in Eve: Warping, MWDing, and going nowhere.

So where does that leave Caldari? Oh yea, they get the ultimate EW that can't be countered without gimping your medslots, they get shield tanking, which is getting another boost for some reason and is totally taking over, they get the perfect ratting and mission running ship, which incidentally doubles as a brilliant damage dealer in small gang PvP, no matter how much people want to ***** and moan about ravens in PvP, oh, and the only thing they don't have is that fleet gunship, that thing that was the only reason to train another race after having mastered Caldari. But wait, they are adding that right now, so there is no reason to use something else unless you are paticularly picky about the color of your ship.



And ECM is and remains a flawed system that should be changed in its most basic functionality. You will simply never get to a point where everyone will say: "Well, not being allowed to fight back is perfectly allright and I had good fun watching my ship explode while not being able to do anything!" It's just not going to happen...

Something has to be done about the way you target other ships in Eve, and once we have a system that's not just Target or No Target we can talk about a system that affects your targeting status. Before that there is no point to it, because completly regardless of how much you tweak the numbers, and completly regardless of who is allowed to use it or not, and completly regardless of how complicated the system becomes, as long as the only viable effect remains someone in the game not being able to use their weapons at all the system will just always suck and kill more fun in the game then it will ever create.



And yes, I agree with the Bobite, Caldari are easy mode, after kali they get a battleship with uber bonuses to 3 completly different weapons systems, and all their ships rely on only one weapons system so you can train them one by one without having to wait till you can fly anything really well like Minmatar, and the only race that requires less training to use all their battleships is Amarr. But that's because they get the same ship 3 times.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Well let's give you a medal then for training Gallente.. your post isn't very productive, the topic is ECM!

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Several 1. Gallente have great ships, even you could not deny it, and don't tell me they're ok, they're superb, everyone in game refers to blastertrons, and UBER Dominixes, I haven't hears anyone refer to ZOMG Ravens.. they're missions ships mostly, sure they shield tank great, but that's what Caldari have bonuses for. Once the shield is gone, we're dead and we know it. You on the other hand have a much more flexible armor upgrades!

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Quote:

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2. Amarr - lol.. "just" gunships? aham.. that's why someone in local was boasting about being able to push his ship to 1800 damage per second in his BS.. Good luck doing that in a Raven.. not to mention the lack of ammo requirements and being fitted properly with the Correct Misile type.

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3. Caldari - I don't seem what is so EASY on the mode for Caldari? the fact that we have 3 different ships to train for? Yes you can fly any one of them with relative low skills, but being most effective in each one, requirest vast amount of training time.

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4. The only race that admittedly is left with a big Question mark is Minmatar. These poor souls have one ship suited for armor tank, and the other for shield tank, with half misile half gunnery slots.. it's a real mastery being able to operate one of these and come out on top! As one person on the forums mentioned Minmatar ships are supposed to underperform and to be flown by brave men/women!

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Originally by: ProphetGuru

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Well let's give you a medal then for training Gallente.. your post isn't very productive, the topic is ECM!

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Uh.. I never said I trained gal thanks. You know what they say about assuming. 40mill minnie thanks. I don't need a medal either. The point was... for someone spamming 7 out of every 10 posts in here, you quite obviously have very little understanding of the basics of this game, and thus your opinion should be taken with a grain of salt by others.

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Originally by: Noriath

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That's sir your UBER majesty to you...

Seriously though, he's right, this argument is getting pretty pointless, I don't know for how long you have played or what you do in Eve, but as far as PvP and skilltraining requirements are concerned you're just not up on the numbers. It has nothing to do with Gallente whining, there is an inherent inbalance in ECM being the end all be all of E-war an being exclusively used by one race which already gets missiles and shield tanking all to itself pretty much.

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Originally by: Noriath

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Well, I'm sorry we can't get the point we're trying to make across to you, but I don't feel like it's because we just can't put up any good arguments. The fact is and remains that Caldari get an overwhelming number of different ships with great bonuses while other races are more and more getting locked into a very one dimensional style of play.

ECM is not a good game mechanic, any incarnation of it will result in frustration for its victims and a feeling that they didn't get a fair chance to fight back, and telling me I'm a Gallente whiner or that I should just train Caldari instead of complaining isn't going to change my oppinion on that, sorry.

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Originally by: Noriath

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True one on one combat is extremly rare, the scorpion has its real strength in fleet battles and small gang engagements, which are the two common types of PvP in Eve where roughly equal numbers clash. Any reason it keeps being called the Primary? It's not because people shoot the least dangerous ship first you know...

And you're still not seeing the point of how it is unbalanced to have a type of Electronic Warfare that is a dozen times more effective then all others restricted to only one race that is the most commonly used and versatile in the game anyways, forcing everyone to train Caldari if they want effective E-war.

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Originally by: Khaylek

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Oh yeah, anyone heard of FoF missles?

-Chris

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Originally by: Megas Alkaia

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Make ECM into high slot modules. Problem solved.

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Originally by: Mike C

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You're joking!

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Originally by: Kunming

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Edited by: Kunming on 23/10/2006 13:39:19
ECM will still be pwnage but only on Caldari ships. What about Minmatar's (non-existant) EW abilities, Amarr's useless (against missiles) tracking disruptors?

Edit: Oh and not to forget about gallente, who are supposed to be short-range fighters, who got long-range EW. IMO, RSDs should be given to caldari with a longer optimal or falloff, and ECM to gallente but with a much lower optimal. Dont know about u folks, but this makes much more sense to me..

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Hey I have an idea, for all you ECM haters.. how about we make target painting/dampening/tracking distruption also Chance based ? only seems fair... since every race gets an EW trait. Only Caldari however seems to be chance based.. hmmm....????????

And no, ECM is not way too powerful, id' feel pretty helpless if I am in say a minmatar cruiser to be tracking distrupted 100% of the time with a single module and killed by a frig.. so you see? it's the same, even worse than losing targetting for 20sec., cause you can regain regain targetting eventually, but not really tracking back.

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Originally by: Tollpan

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Edited by: Tollpan on 05/11/2006 18:48:15
Let's face some facts:
Right now I have the following jammer-strengths with racial T2-jammers:
Rook: 12.6
Scorpion: 11.25

With the new system I reach:
Rook: 11.4 (with 2 Signal Distortion Ampl II)
Scorp: 10.6 (3 SDA II) and 11.2 (4 SDA II)

So the strength in a Rook goes down for 1.2 and 0 low slots left and the Scorp goes down for 0.65 (1 low left) or remains unchanged (0 low left).
That means that the SDA do NOT compensate the reduction of the jammer strength.
Maybe CCP should adjust the boni of the EW-Ships?!

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Originally by: Isotobe

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ECM is [b]a bit less good on specialised ships[b].

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