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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:21:00 -
[1]
Linkage
Discuss.
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Sign the petition against jump queues! |
Kulmid
Nubs.
Black Reign Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:25:00 -
[2]
Solution: give dedicated ECM ships a role bonus, that increases jammer strength and leave the current bonus on Griffin and Blackbird...
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Paigan
Amarr
Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:27:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Kulmid
Solution: give dedicated ECM ships a role bonus, that increases jammer strength and leave the current bonus on Griffin and Blackbird...
Thougth the same thing when reading tux' blog.
Apart from that, i'm looking forward to fitting the "Jammer Damage Module" on my scorp and go on instapermajam everyone else even after the patch. Nice :D
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This game is still in beta stage |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:30:00 -
[4]
It is an improvement, but slightly disappointing imho. Would have hoped for a more fundamental change in the function of the module. Limiting it to EW ships will just lead to "Oh look they have a Scorp, that's no fun, let's dock" in small gangs again.
I do have a suggestion to augment that change though:
Make ECCM activation recalc all jamming on you, and if the jammer loses that calc, the jam is terminated. Seeing how ECCM has a faster cycle than ECM, I think this might be the feature that actually makes ECCM a viable fitting option.
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ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Reign Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:32:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
It is an improvement, but slightly disappointing imho.
Dito. Also does nothing to the balance of the different EW system to each other.
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Zakgram
Apocalyptic Raiders
Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:36:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Zakgram on 23/10/2006 12:38:14
The rook only has 2 low slots and the falcon has 3. To have any sort of survivability you stick a plate and repper in - and for the falcon a cap charger since for some reason the non-combat one gets an extra slot.
Adding a lowslot module to de-nerf some of the strength nerf will mean that we either need to dump the plate, dump the rep, or (if on the falcon) dump the cap charger. So we either take a bigger nerf (rook) or a lesser nerf (falcon since it can fit at least 1 ecm+ module). Additionally the rook is already tank weaker than the falcon since fitting the heavy launchers means you don't have enough grid for a 1600m plate, but the falcon user doesn't generally bother with weapons so has plenty of grid and can fit the biggest plate.
Hmm....
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:37:00 -
[7]
The issue will still be, that someone can get lucky and jam you with one jammer. You'll still have 'I lost a ship because some noob in a tard setup got lucky and permajammed me with his 1 multispec'. Thats was what really needed. Also, the aforementioned 'oh look, they have a Scorp' syndrome is still in effect, which could have done with an alteration.
Also, depending on numbers, it's possible that this could turn out to be a buff to EW ships like the Scorp or Rook/Falcon. I wish we'd gotten some numbers.
Scrapheap Challenge Forums |
EvilNate
Caldari
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:37:00 -
[8]
I personally don't see a problem in making a ECM ship, pure ECM. They are powerful, but if they fail at what they do, they are screwed. With the change to stabs, people flying scorps will be quite vunrable and we all know these ships go down quick.
A ship like a NOS Domi packing ECCM is a real threat. Fail 1 jam on the ship and your cap will likely be gone in seconds, leaving you with no way to defend yourself.
Nate.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:37:00 -
[9]
I would have liked to see a way for non-racial sensor strength to be increased and taken into account, but I guess it's not to be.
WTS: multispectral ECCM
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
GO MaZ
No Quarter.
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Make ECCM activation recalc all jamming on you, and if the jammer loses that calc, the jam is terminated. Seeing how ECCM has a faster cycle than ECM, I think this might be the feature that actually makes ECCM a viable fitting option.
I really like this idea, and the blog made me happy in the pants 
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EvilNate
Caldari
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Zakgram
The rook only has 2 low slots and the falcon has 3. To have any sort of survivability you stick a plate and repper in - and for the falcon a cap charger since for some reason the non-combat one gets an extra slot.
Adding a lowslot module to de-nerf some of the strength nerf will mean that we either need to dump the plate, dump the rep, or (if on the falcon) dump the cap charger. So we either take a bigger nerf (rook) or a lesser nerf (falcon since it can fit at least 1 ecm+ module).
Hmm....
Not really. If you read the blog again, the ECM changes are to the modules and ECM ships is suppose to make ships like the NOS/ECM domi weaker, cause they would need to use low slots to boost their ECM abilities to be as effective as they were before, but to make sure that the current ECM ships stay as they should be.
Of course, putting ECM boosting mods will make them better, so thats always a plus.
Nate.
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:40:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Before I tell you what changes we're going to make, let's go over what's wrong with ECM to begin with. In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships. They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable.
RIP EvE-Online.
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Gazon
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard
Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:40:00 -
[13]
Generally I think that is a step in the right direction. Us Amarr-only users will be stuffed, of course, but that's one of the drawbacks you take on.
I'm curious to see the numbers since it would be bad if the dedicated ECM ships became even more powerful than they are now. If they have to sacrifice their tank for that, fine, but please, significantly. I mean that if a Scorp/BB/Griffin pilot wants to make sure that he can instapermajam then he must sacrifice at least 66% of his lowslots to balance the fact that he can effectively take several enemy ships out of the fight. You see that I am coming from an Amarr vs. mixed fleet, small engagement point of view.
In fact, if the EW modules would depend on racial ship bonuses to be effective I'm sure we would see much more fights either without an overuse of EW or with a more balanced EW (Gallente using Dampener, Amarr Tracking Disruptors, Caldari ECM and Minmatar... err... Target Painters  ).
One last point: we've also tweaked the cpu need of ECCM and backup arrays a bit.
Please define "tweak" 
Now recruiting! |
MECTO
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tuxford
Step 1: Lower the jam strength of all ECM modules,
Step 2: Increase the ship bonuses of all dedicated ECM ships,
Step 3a: Create a new low slot module that boosts the jam strength of all ECM modules,
Step 3b: Stacking nerf the jam strength attribute.
QFT!!! very good. i was whining about it before christ was born!!
GOOD CHANGES BUT NO HP CHANGES TUX WE DON'T NEED THEM
Originally by: Kusotarre
I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:41:00 -
[15]
Praise the lord they do listen!
I always maintained that ECM strength needed nerfing with a bonus on dedicated ships!
The introduction of a low-slot module is debatable though... It's not really going to spell the end for the lame Domi is it?
Originally by: anonymous
If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Zakgram
Apocalyptic Raiders
Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:42:00 -
[16]
Originally by: EvilNate
Not really. If you read the blog again, the ECM changes are to the modules and ECM ships is suppose to make ships like the NOS/ECM domi weaker, cause they would need to use low slots to boost their ECM abilities to be as effective as they were before, but to make sure that the current ECM ships stay as they should be.
I did and this is the killer: Stacking nerf the jam strength attribute.
When flying both my rook and falcon I have to sometimes use 3-4 modules on a bs to get it to shut down - but without any data to support how these nerfs are going to work it sounds like it's just going to make things weaker. I.e. the blog hints at changes but doesn't describe a single one in any detail, so isn't very useful for discussion purposes.
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Gazon
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard
Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:45:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Make ECCM activation recalc all jamming on you, and if the jammer loses that calc, the jam is terminated. Seeing how ECCM has a faster cycle than ECM, I think this might be the feature that actually makes ECCM a viable fitting option.
I like that idea, very good. Gives the victim a real counter chance.
Now recruiting! |
Colwyn
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:47:00 -
[18]
I would have liked to have seen Multispecs been made an ew boat only mod...
Even if the sensor stregnth gets nerfed down to 1 or 2, as Testy says, it's still a chance to jam and people WILL still fit it...
Dominix tank is already powerful and im sure many wouldnt mind dropping a single low slot mod for the ecm stregnth mod.
It's a step in the right direcion but I do still think the whole ecm system needs a complete overhaul. Having it based on a 'dice roll' is still just a little bit too lame imho.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:49:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 23/10/2006 12:51:38
Originally by: Zakgram
Originally by: EvilNate
Not really. If you read the blog again, the ECM changes are to the modules and ECM ships is suppose to make ships like the NOS/ECM domi weaker, cause they would need to use low slots to boost their ECM abilities to be as effective as they were before, but to make sure that the current ECM ships stay as they should be.
I did and this is the killer: Stacking nerf the jam strength attribute.
When flying both my rook and falcon I have to sometimes use 3-4 modules on a bs to get it to shut down - but without any data to support how these nerfs are going to work it sounds like it's just going to make things weaker. I.e. the blog hints at changes but doesn't describe a single one in any detail, so isn't very useful for discussion purposes.
Your recons are going to be boosted. Add a few "damage-ecm mods" and they have better jamming strengths. EWAR ships will be better EWAR. Not so much incentive to fit ECM on non-EWAR ships. I call the ECM fix an improvement. Nice one on CCP.
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Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind.
Pax Caldaria. |
Gazon
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard
Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:51:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Colwyn
It's a step in the right direcion but I do still think the whole ecm system needs a complete overhaul. Having it based on a 'dice roll' is still just a little bit too lame imho.
Somewhere I read about giving the ECM modules a minimum range meaning that a ship if it manages to close on the EW boat could just burn through the jam due to close range and lock anway. This would open quite a few tactical opportunities (have dedicated ECM killers with MWD) and necessities (Have ECM defenders with webs to intercept ECM killers).
Well, just food for thought anhow :)
Now recruiting! |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:54:00 -
[21]
Numbers will make or break that.
In general, I think the solution is a good one.
I'd go with about a 50% reduction in ECM base strength as a start point.
Stacking nerf, I read that as stacking nerf on the 'ECM damage' mods. Rather than on the multiple ECMs. Not that it matters _too_ much as stacking only really starts to hurt past 3 or 4 jammers, which IMO would be a fair trade for a higher base jam strength.
I'm glad they didn't _stop_ the use of ECMs on non ECM ships. That would have been a bad move. As it is, they're now _far_ less attractive than they would have been - if we use the 30% jam chance, and it's now 15%, then ... well, that becomes a debatable choice - is them firing at me for 15% of the time worth more to me than a 25% shield hardener. (Or other Ewar, or ... etc. etc.)
For me, I'm just waiting to see the whinging when people start to realise that tracking disruptors or RSDs are actually more effective.
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Thud
Caldari
Mad-Warping-Maniacs
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Posted - 2006.10.23 13:00:00 -
[22]
Ok,thats it,srew this.
I still have to use eccm on my geddon,witch hasnt enough med`s to fit em?
Ok,i train minmater BS now. rip amarr
I am disappointed.
Is it really so hart to find another effect for ecm?
Now its even more chance based "jamm or die".
No fight at all, you perma jam and win without being hit one time,or you fail and die in seconds? Very exciting combat!
@tux
making a target helpless is not balanced and will never be!
Look at TD`s,thats EW i like, it makes the target weaker,not helpless,it is still able to fight.
Of course you have to find something that effects all ships,not only turret ones.
But the "not able to lock anything" system will always suck.
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My english is bad. |
dalman
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2006.10.23 13:01:00 -
[23]
Good to see that they've at least understood the problem after my continous spamming:
That 1 slot used has 1/3 chance to deactivate 10 slots on the hostile - ie, ECM is very very overpowered.
Really waiting for some numbers:
* ECM must have at most 50% of the strength it has today
* EW ships (rook, scorp, falcon, blackbird etc) must not have higher strength than they have today (when looking at skill with level 5).
If these 2 holds true when we get numbers, I'm happy.
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Stanis
Gallente
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.23 13:04:00 -
[24]
I like this. It's definatly an improvment, but why don't you cut the jamming cycle in half? Make it to be 10 sec and not 20. I believe this will help also.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 13:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Stanis
I like this. It's definatly an improvment, but why don't you cut the jamming cycle in half? Make it to be 10 sec and not 20. I believe this will help also.
10s ECM is a massive boost to their effectiveness. Consider what that would do to relock times. Then consider what'd happen if I put a remote sensor dampener on you.
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Malena Panic
Gallente
Acme Technologies Incorporated
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.10.23 13:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
The issue will still be, that someone can get lucky and jam you with one jammer.
Now think about how that luck will be affected by the hp boost and much longer fights.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 13:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: dalman
Good to see that they've at least understood the problem after my continous spamming:
That 1 slot used has 1/3 chance to deactivate 10 slots on the hostile - ie, ECM is very very overpowered.
Really waiting for some numbers:
* ECM must have at most 50% of the strength it has today
* EW ships (rook, scorp, falcon, blackbird etc) must not have higher strength than they have today (when looking at skill with level 5).
If these 2 holds true when we get numbers, I'm happy.
Mostly agreed. I don't mind much, EW ships being a bit better. Assuming the stats roll out the same, but then there's a choice of ECM damage mods, instead of armour tank, that would be acceptable in my book.
Go all out ECM on that scorp, but then have absolutely no tank, rather than a couple of plates and a repper.
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Taipan Gedscho
Taipan Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.23 13:09:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Taipan Gedscho on 23/10/2006 13:11:18
no matters what the whiners say:
let tux apply his changes as he likes.
let us deal with it for several months.
let us get tux back to the drawing board to tweak the changes.
rinse and repeat.
AND PLEASE for the love of all that is holy and sexy...
stop the whining, its taking overhand!
(but if eccm stuff would be able to actually break a jam...
i would appreciate it  )
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DARKKK
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Posted - 2006.10.23 13:16:00 -
[29]
With coming WCS nerf... i'll just replace wcs to ECM "dmg mods"...
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Andrea Jaruwalski
Caldari
S.A.S
Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.10.23 13:33:00 -
[30]
You better release a mod that increases effectivness of other EW mods while you're at it. Like Dampeners.
/me winks at Shin ra ☻
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