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LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:35:00 - [31] Originally by: Shin Ra I have officially lost faith in Tuxford. Bring back TomB. Let's see it first and whine later:P He managed to solve blaster problems ok. I'd like to see jammers only disabling weapons though. Especially with massive hp increase(? still in plan) it will be very hard to keep someone still.
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:38:00 - [32] Originally by: Shin Ra I have officially lost faith in Tuxford. Bring back TomB. Why? Damps aren't changing. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:39:00 - [33] Edited by: LUKEC on 23/10/2006 13:43:18 Edited by: LUKEC on 23/10/2006 13:41:10 Edited by: LUKEC on 23/10/2006 13:40:14 Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski You better release a mod that increases effectivness of other EW mods while you're at it. Like Dampeners. /me winks at Shin ra ☻ I was playing with damps alot lately... They are quite ballanced. They could use more range though(especially on recons). Ballance of damps = fit 3 sensor boosters(12s lock for bs on raven, lock cca 70km(damps start to fail at this range) ), ballance of ECM = fit 3 backups and still get jammed. Another thing is ... ecm mess every ship, smaller so much more, while damps fail completely on 3/4 intys (all they need to do is come closer). Hacs/bigger aren't problem, torps take care of those stupid enough to get close.
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari S.A.S Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:43:00 - [34] Maybe Dampeners could use a little range increase and maybe affect max target lock on ships. Seems Tracking disrupting, Dampening, target painting will never be on par with ECM, just different usage. KR GIRLY SIDE / WTS PILGRIM + CURSE + T2 DRONES PACKS
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:03:00 - [35] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Shin Ra I have officially lost faith in Tuxford. Bring back TomB. Let's see it first and whine later:P He managed to solve blaster problems ok. I'd like to see jammers only disabling weapons though. Especially with massive hp increase(? still in plan) it will be very hard to keep someone still. The guy is bonkers. I actually think he just gets wasted all day then when its time to fix something reads the forums and picks the first thing that comes to his head (so long as it is not an amarr fix). The "problem" is not crows with multispecs or the fact all the non-caldari recons fit ecm too. The problem is its chanced based. People can win or loose because of luck on whether or not their modules work. Is this really how you envisaged pvp 3 or 4 years ago? All the other EW modules have the same problem once you go past their optimals. Should I really be able to dampner from 222km in my raven? No. The whole point of creating an "ecm dmg mod" as it were is to allow non ew ships (EG dominix/raven), to be turned into ew ships). HOLD THE PHONE Wasn't the whole reasons for the cycle jamming > Chance based system that midslots determined EW capability which was unfair for arma etc. Yet these ships usually have more lows. So why can't you change it back to something similar to what it was but have this EW dmg mod to make ships such as the arma be capable of being (limited, but effective) EW boats. Furthermore, why didn't you just do this in the first place ?
Jernau Gurgeh Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:08:00 - [36] Originally by: Shin Ra The "problem" is not crows with multispecs or the fact all the non-caldari recons fit ecm too. The problem is its chanced based. People can win or loose because of luck on whether or not their modules work. Is this really how you envisaged pvp 3 or 4 years ago? Considering that guns sometimes miss, and sometimes score wrecking hits, I'd say that the answer to your question is "yes". There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
Trac3rt GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:10:00 - [37] Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/10/2006 14:16:01 So ECM has gone from an overpowered broken module that everyone can use, to a broken overpowered module that only the Caldari can use, and will get an EW 'damage mod' lowslot module to make them even more broken and overpowerd. Good going Tux! :rolleyes: As other people have said, the module needs to be balanced with the other EW. TDs and SDs cripple but don't completely disable the other ship while ECM is an 'I-Win' button on a ship setup to use it properly. Personally, I think the problem would be better resolved one of two ways: - Remove Multispecs completely. ECM ships have to choose which racial jammers to take, and if they pick incorrectly the jammers are about as usefull as a Tracking Disruptor on a Raven. Pilots would have to choose between specialisation in a certain race and risking being vunerable to more ships, or spreading their racials out and losing the ability to put multiple jammers on a single target. This keeps ECM more powerfull against the right targets, yet more specialised in what it works against. - Give ECM strength bonuses to specific races only. Instead of a static 20% bonus to jam strength, you would get 20% bonus to magnetometric jam strength (Gallante ships). Making ECM usefull but not 'I-Win' against some ships, and more powerfull against Gallante ships. The same way that TD's and SD's work better against some races over others. I much prefer the first suggestion over the second. ECM is fundamentally unbalanced and broken in comparison to the other EW, and limiting its use to a specific race is not addressing the core problem. ___
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:12:00 - [38] Edited by: Loka on 23/10/2006 14:13:32 Ok iam a genius and thats why i have a perfect idear for changes. How about this. We give every ship a fix amount of Sensor Strength. Then you have the ECM Modul, which will reduce your sensorstrength. Once below 0 you can lock ** :D The enemy can than fit ECCM to increas his own Sensorstrength. I know it was the old system, but at least skillbased not luckbased. what could be stayed with is this optimal and falloff thing. 100% effectiveness in optimal, decreasing strength at falloff. Jamming a BS outside optimal will be hard though. I know iam a genius. But hey what was wrong with old system, to start with? _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]**
Ishana Minmatar Neo Knight Errant	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Trac3rt Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/10/2006 14:16:01 So ECM has gone from an overpowered broken module that everyone can use, to a broken overpowered module that only the Caldari can use, and will get an EW 'damage mod' lowslot module to make them even more broken and overpowerd. Good going Tux! :rolleyes: As other people have said, the module needs to be balanced with the other EW. TDs and SDs cripple but don't completely disable the other ship while ECM is an 'I-Win' button on a ship setup to use it properly. QFT _________________________________________________________
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:27:00 - [40] Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh Originally by: Shin Ra The "problem" is not crows with multispecs or the fact all the non-caldari recons fit ecm too. The problem is its chanced based. People can win or loose because of luck on whether or not their modules work. Is this really how you envisaged pvp 3 or 4 years ago? Considering that guns sometimes miss, and sometimes score wrecking hits, I'd say that the answer to your question is "yes". The tracking analogy would only work if there was a chance that your ship blew up on a successful hit. Also, it would only work if the chance to hit was absolute and you could not do anything about it. To be more precise: this analogy would only work if a 425mm Railgun had a 40% chance of killing a Raven, 20% chance of killing most other battleships, and around 80 to 100% chance of killing an interceptor. Your intuitive reaction is that "no that's pure BS", it's not. The objective of ECM is to prevent the other ship from functioning while the objective of weapons is to kill them. While the end results are very different, an analogy does not care about end results. ECM, when successful, completely removes a targeted ship from influencing the surroundings for 20 seconds. By comparison, a Dampener reduces the area of influence a ship has by about 50%. A Disruptor reduces each turret's area of influence by 50% and their chance of influence by 50%. For ECM to have X% chance of reducing influence 100% is not analogous with any of the other systems, especially considering that they have stacking penalties. Shin Ra, actually has a point. It's a matter of chance based, and you can't protect yourself against chance, you can only insulate. The old system wasn't any better, however. In that system you had 100% or 0% chance of shutting down an enemy. What is needed is partial shut down, or at the very least reduced shut down effect. For instance, ECM does not remove lock, it only removes targeted module activation. - What am I listening to?
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:30:00 - [41] They should either: o Break all active target locks or o Prevent a ship from aquiring new targets NOT BOTH!!! _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Nahia Senne Fortunis Novum	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:33:00 - [42] why does ECM need to be "special"? why cant it just be as effective as other ewar mods? then we wont have to hear "omg an ecm boat!! primary it!!!!111". tux, make ecm just break peoples lock. then it will be as usefull as other ewar mods. BS needs some 8 seconds to relock, and much more on smaller targets, not even calculating time neaded for finding all your targets again in overview. this would finally make it usefull to mix different ewar ships/mods in a fleet. not just load as much ecm as possible.
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:45:00 - [43] Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh Originally by: Shin Ra The "problem" is not crows with multispecs or the fact all the non-caldari recons fit ecm too. The problem is its chanced based. People can win or loose because of luck on whether or not their modules work. Is this really how you envisaged pvp 3 or 4 years ago? Considering that guns sometimes miss, and sometimes score wrecking hits, I'd say that the answer to your question is "yes". hes in raven Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:53:00 - [44] Originally by: Trac3rt Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/10/2006 14:16:01 So ECM has gone from an overpowered broken module that everyone can use, to a broken overpowered module that only the Caldari can use, and will get an EW 'damage mod' lowslot module to make them even more broken and overpowerd. Good going Tux! :rolleyes: As other people have said, the module needs to be balanced with the other EW. TDs and SDs cripple but don't completely disable the other ship while ECM is an 'I-Win' button on a ship setup to use it properly. No, it's gone from a module that every ship fits to get their 25% jamming chance, to a module which requires specific decisions as to whether to fit or not. The EW ships remain good at it, but ... please try and kill a battleship in a scorpion some time? Or another cruiser in a BB. Their damage output is pitifully bad. 6 highslots in a 4/4, with no damage bonus, and not enough P/G to fit a full rack anyway? So they're a tradeoff. You lose the firepower of $other_ship_in_class to get electronic warfare. Which is as it should be. Not every damn armour tanking ship, and probably most ravens out there fitting 'em, and never ever seeing scorpions in anything other than a fleet, and that only because ravens aren't all that good at 100km ranges.
Mallick	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:56:00 - [45] Quote: It seems fair to sacrifice hard defenses for electronic warfare, but this isn't really totally true. You're using a low slot when armor tanking, leaving a med slot free for electronic warfare. Tuxford is implying that ECM ships should not have poor damage output - as they sacrifice Defense and NOT Offense to fitt ECM. So, lets give the Scorpion 6 missile slots. xD
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:56:00 - [46] Originally by: EvilNate I personally don't see a problem in making a ECM ship, pure ECM. They are powerful, but if they fail at what they do, they are screwed. With the change to stabs, people flying scorps will be quite vunrable and we all know these ships go down quick. A ship like a NOS Domi packing ECCM is a real threat. Fail 1 jam on the ship and your cap will likely be gone in seconds, leaving you with no way to defend yourself. Nate. TBH, the problem with this is diversity. Right now, being a scorp pilot is bad, because we get called primary all the time. It leave no imigination for what ship does what, who is ecm, who is dps, ect. I think we need MORE diveristy, not less. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:01:00 - [47] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=413947&page=1
Enortiz	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:01:00 - [48] Originally by: Thud Ok,thats it,srew this. I still have to use eccm on my geddon,witch hasnt enough med`s to fit em? Ok,i train minmater BS now. rip amarr I am disappointed. Is it really so hart to find another effect for ecm? Now its even more chance based "jamm or die". No fight at all, you perma jam and win without being hit one time,or you fail and die in seconds? Very exciting combat! @tux making a target helpless is not balanced and will never be! Look at TD`s,thats EW i like, it makes the target weaker,not helpless,it is still able to fight. Of course you have to find something that effects all ships,not only turret ones. But the "not able to lock anything" system will always suck. Originally by: Nahia Senne why does ECM need to be "special"? why cant it just be as effective as other ewar mods? then we wont have to hear "omg an ecm boat!! primary it!!!!111". tux, make ecm just break peoples lock. then it will be as usefull as other ewar mods. BS needs some 8 seconds to relock, and much more on smaller targets, not even calculating time neaded for finding all your targets again in overview. this would finally make it usefull to mix different ewar ships/mods in a fleet. not just load as much ecm as possible. qft
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:02:00 - [49] Edited by: James Lyrus on 23/10/2006 15:03:05 Originally by: Nahia Senne why does ECM need to be "special"? why cant it just be as effective as other ewar mods? then we wont have to hear "omg an ecm boat!! primary it!!!!111". Out of interest, have you looked at how effective RSDs and tracking disruptors are? They're not a trivial module to fit for a straight 25% jamming rate, but when used right they're utterly deadly. They're a little less directly effective, but the 100% success rate (ok, within optimal I'll grant you) means they're a lot better for complementing a well thought out combat tactic. A TD II drops optimal and tracking by 50%. An RSD II drops locking speed and locking range by 50%. That's just one module, rather than needing 4 or more ECMs. ECCMs will remain as effective, but will be less of a 'must have' module, because not every ship you see, ever will be running ECMs
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:09:00 - [50] Edited by: welsh wizard on 23/10/2006 15:13:30 Originally by: Shin Ra The problem is its chanced based. I'll have to disagree here Shin. In my eyes the biggest problem with ECM is that you can fit it on any ship you want and maintain the modules usefulness to the full extent of your skills. Frigates shouldn't fit modules like this, its stupid. Theres going to be a split in opinion here but this is definitely an improvement. The game needs ships that fill specific roles. I think current jamming ships should be as effective as they are now at jamming and none ECM ships should have their ability to jam reduced significantly. I'm a bit dubious about this low-slot module especially if it can be put on ECM ships to increase their jam strength, that sounds a bit overpowered. You can spare a low on most Domi setups also so it doesn't properly deal with lame setups. If you want to jam your opponent you bring a jamming ship. Originally by: Nahia Senne why does ECM need to be "special"? why cant it just be as effective as other ewar mods? then we wont have to hear "omg an ecm boat!! primary it!!!!111". I don't see the problem with this. I think removing the obvious danger ships first adds alot tactically to every battle. We're in danger of falling into an 'every ship is too similar' scenario as it is. Uniqueness is what this game should be about, if you want to jam, bring a jamming ship. If you don't want to be jammed, fit the relevant modules which do work contrary to popular belief. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:19:00 - [51] Originally by: Shin Ra I have officially lost faith in Tuxford. Bring back TomB. agreed
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:24:00 - [52] So if I'm not wrong we are talking about 4 dedicated ecm ships that will be better at what they do: Blackbird Griffin Rook Falcon The others will loose a lot of the advantages that they had untill now. If I'm not wrong the other ships (thinking on the curse, dominix, ishtar, etc..., all the non ECM ships but with a lot of mid slots to spare) will loose a lot of the advantages they had untill now. It's a nerf anyway... and the future situation will be a lot better then the present status.
Simon Illian Caldari Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:31:00 - [53] curse don't have a bonus to EW (aka TD) ? -\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/ When you need a mad man, call me i'me ready to serve ! -\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/null
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:33:00 - [54] Sticking to ships of your own race becomes less and less viable unless you are Caldari :( Now recruiting!
starship enginer	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Ishana Originally by: Trac3rt Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/10/2006 14:16:01 So ECM has gone from an overpowered broken module that everyone can use, to a broken overpowered module that only the Caldari can use, and will get an EW 'damage mod' lowslot module to make them even more broken and overpowerd. Good going Tux! :rolleyes: As other people have said, the module needs to be balanced with the other EW. TDs and SDs cripple but don't completely disable the other ship while ECM is an 'I-Win' button on a ship setup to use it properly. QFT QFT QFT so now if the ECM dmg mod thing gives lets say 25% one times rook with amarr jammer 7.21.251.5*1.25 = 16.875 100% chance of jamming a geddon att the time WOOT FOR THE NERF TUX U THE MAN, giving caldari ecm boats a dam BOOST!!! just give us 2 skills which up our dam ships ECM strength by 10% each FFS the ecm nerf was actually sometime i was gona use to consider returning to eve but this changes very little, only that now caldari can still wtf own you with ecm rather than all 4 races. NERF ECM DAMMIT
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:43:00 - [56] Originally by: Simon Illian curse don't have a bonus to EW (aka TD) ? Step 2: Increase the ship bonuses of all dedicated ECM ships I think this exclude all the EW ships except the ECM ones.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:44:00 - [57] Originally by: James Lyrus Out of interest, have you looked at how effective RSDs and tracking disruptors are? They're not a trivial module to fit for a straight 25% jamming rate, but when used right they're utterly deadly. They're a little less directly effective, but the 100% success rate (ok, within optimal I'll grant you) means they're a lot better for complementing a well thought out combat tactic. A TD II drops optimal and tracking by 50%. An RSD II drops locking speed and locking range by 50%. That's just one module, rather than needing 4 or more ECMs. And what exactly will 1 module do? Due to range limitations you cannot use TDs effeciently past 70 km or SD past 50 km. With 1 damperner on it a BS (which has no sensor booster fitted, mind you) will have about 50 km locking range. The effect is nil exept a longer lockingtime. For a really disabling effect, which consists of getting the targetting range below the magic 20 km warp disruptor range, you will need at least 3 damperners on a non-specialized ship or 2 on a gal recon (assuming the target BS has no sensor boosters). And vs frigs (where 1 ECM module is plenty to jam them it is only effective vs setups like a longrange crow or crusader. If you want to get very close anyway you do not care if you have only 2 km lockingrange. For the same reason it is only of limited use vs any shortrange ACs or blaster cruisers and BSs. The same applies on tracking disruptors. You need to stack them to get a disabling effect and ACs and blasters and frigs in general are not hurt too much by it. And of cource missles are not effected at all.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:44:00 - [58] Originally by: Blind Man Originally by: Shin Ra I have officially lost faith in Tuxford. Bring back TomB. agreed TomB never went anywhere. He's the lead game designer and every single change I make is sanctioned by him. Not only because he is lead game designer but also because I have tremendous respect for him. I don't run it only by TomB either I talk to Hammerhead and Oveur as well. _______________

Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:45:00 - [59] Guys, for the love of god stop the personal attacks :/ _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:47:00 - [60] I'm going to agree with Shin here. These changes are more than welcome and will definitely improve the situation (if implemented correctly) but the chance-and-full-disable system is still fundamentally broken. If there's no desire to fix that then I'm just going to avoid fights with ECM boats full stop.

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KR GIRLY SIDE / WTS PILGRIM + CURSE + T2 DRONES PACKS