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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.28 12:22:00 -
[151]
Edited by: j0sephine on 28/11/2003 12:31:26
"Advancement through such a module should be slower then advancement through agent system."
Yup, definitely; a similar (or maybe slightly better) ratio to how the mobile refineries perform when compared to the station refinery, perhaps? No idea how the performance of various level agents differs, but am thinking of performance somewhat lower than what lvl.1 agent can offer... so there is incentive to try to get the better research agents, but at the same time well coordinated research done by large corporation can turn out comparable to medium-high level of agent r&d. ^^;;
Mr.Guinness: sorry about that 'wahh' up there; just poking a bit of fun, no serious disrespect or anythin meant ;)
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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2003.11.28 12:35:00 -
[152]
 Quote:
Mr.Guinness: sorry about that 'wahh' up there; just poking a bit of fun, no serious disrespect or anythin meant ;)
hehe i've read enough of your posts to know that ;)
as for the efficiency of the modules, sure they wouldn't be as good as a station, some balance would have to be found there. would have todo some calculations there if we know more about research agents.
cheers :)
--
The worst thing you can do when suggesting a solution to a problem is to provide alternatives, people end up arguing the alternatives instead of implementing the fix. |
slixgurnt
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Posted - 2003.11.28 12:58:00 -
[153]
Well I'm just going to weigh in and add my name to the List Of Concerned Researchers. This system wasn't what I was expecting or looking forward to, and I find it rather disappointing.
Like others, I don't really have a problem with Tech 2 BPs being available from agents, but I too would like to see alternate paths open as has been suggested (improvement of existing BPs, reverse engineering, finding them at POIs, etc.).
I like the idea of the new skills, and especially that they are rank 5 and therefore be real tough to train. Those few who've posted suggesting that researchers have it easy might like to reflect on how long it's going to take to train a rank 5 level 5 skill!
I also agree with the concerns expressed about the numbers of BPs which will be released, and the timescales involved. If CCP get it wrong the results could be catastrophic, given the general mood after Miner-2-Gate. We will have to wait and see I guess.
McWatt: you made a few points which I think were aimed at trying to introduce some sort of risk in the lives of researchers. While I agree with the sentiment, your suggestions all seemed to be pretty much combat-related, which I don't really think is appropriate.
One element which seems to be missing from the game (at least in a formal sense) is that of espionage. That would address the issue of BPs being lockec "safely" in stations. They are safe until some spy comes along and nicks them. I guess there are ways this happens already (sleeper characters and spies), but maybe a bit more of that would add some spice to life. A skill which when well trained facilitates the circumvention of corporate security systems, and so on. Just a thought.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.28 13:21:00 -
[154]
"Those few who've posted suggesting that researchers have it easy might like to reflect on how long it's going to take to train a rank 5 level 5 skill!"
... Uhmm. For tech.2 research you need Science (rank 1) skill at level 5, and some specific other skill (also usually of rank 1 like Mechanic or Engineering) at lvl.5. And specific tech.2 skill at lvl.1-3 as far as i can tell... Where does the requirement of rank 5 skill at lvl.5 come from? O.o
(and well... Cruiser Command, all three Large Turrets skills, Trajectory Analysis, Cruise Missiles, Heavy Drones, Drone Interfacing, High Speed Maneuvering are rank 5 each. Battleship Command is rank 8. An effective fighter will want to have all these at lvl.4 at least.... so don't tell me how the life of researcher is tough and requires lots of training. ;s
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Angry Sheep
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Posted - 2003.11.28 15:18:00 -
[155]
j0sephine - some good posts there - I like your ideas and they are very clear and lead to more fun tan hours of solo play in agent missions
(have to get the crew to protect me while making points)
keep the posts up
It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
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slixgurnt
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Posted - 2003.11.28 15:54:00 -
[156]
Quote:
"Those few who've posted suggesting that researchers have it easy might like to reflect on how long it's going to take to train a rank 5 level 5 skill!"
... Uhmm. For tech.2 research you need Science (rank 1) skill at level 5, and some specific other skill (also usually of rank 1 like Mechanic or Engineering) at lvl.5. And specific tech.2 skill at lvl.1-3 as far as i can tell... Where does the requirement of rank 5 skill at lvl.5 come from? O.o
(and well... Cruiser Command, all three Large Turrets skills, Trajectory Analysis, Cruise Missiles, Heavy Drones, Drone Interfacing, High Speed Maneuvering are rank 5 each. Battleship Command is rank 8. An effective fighter will want to have all these at lvl.4 at least.... so don't tell me how the life of researcher is tough and requires lots of training. ;s
The new Tech 2 skills will be rank 5 (or so I read), and an effective researcher will want to have those at level 5 (and there are 17 of them) 
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.11.28 20:06:00 -
[157]
some of the advanced skills have another advanced skill at 1 or 3 as a pre-requisite - no requirements require level 5
As I read it you choose a specific category to actually research in - thus you only need one of those advanced skills (at most two - and then the first only have to be the aforementioned 1/3)
.
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Missa
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Posted - 2003.11.28 22:21:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Missa on 28/11/2003 22:21:40
Quote:
Distributing tech 2 with agents and lotteries?? Come on, who came up with such a lame idea....
Exactly, as a soon to be un-needed character in Eve...I would also like to know who is responsible for removing the job of the PC scientist in Eve in favor of NPC scientists . I want to know who is responsible for this attack upon the PC scientific community as a whole.
Words allowed on this forum cannot begin to explain my frustration at this point with the CCP dev team as they prepare to shaft scientists harder than we have ever felt it before. The only class I can see more hurting than us would be the poor traders needing their skills in-game.
Why not remove science skills entirely from the game (seriously consider it if you really plan to make these changes) and ignore it as a "bad dream". I would prefer that to having to resort to being a mission runner just to be a "scientist" .
So please CCP, if you really plan to make these terrable and distructive changes to the game just remove science skills. At least then I will have a less sour taste in my mouth. Games are made up of the stories of PC characters, not NPC characters. Sure NPCs are great tools for starting a new story and then supporting it along the way. But I believe that the stories of Eve should be in the hands of players and how they choose to make them. Not by NPCs and random lotteries to see what NPC will give what BP to what PC . Please try to see the wisdom in valuing PC characters over NPCs or you might as well not have GMs for in-story scenes. In fact why have PC scientists at all if all they can do is research mineral and production values...oh and make now limited BPCs.
How are random lotteries research anyway?
PS. Sorry to the person who thought up this idea in the first place, I am not intenting to attack you. But I do not belive that this is the way that Eve "research" progression should be conducted. It simply makes no sense at all that my PC cannot do nearly what a lowly NPC and a lottery can do.
--Missa
New Siggy to Come Soon(tm) |
Azure Skyclad
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Posted - 2003.11.28 22:54:00 -
[159]
Don't really need to add anything to that which has already been said.
This is a "cop out" CCP. You either sold us a false promise with RnD or you can't be bothered to do the work to implement it properly.
Too hard to do? Tell us it's too hard. We're grown up girls and boys (mostly)
Can't be bothered? Why do i pay you every month?
We were led to believe it was going to happen one way then you float this doozy along with the rest of the turds on the briney.
"Go away and do it again"
La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs
Star Fraction
http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/ |
ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.29 11:45:00 -
[160]
Quote:
Edited by: Missa on 28/11/2003 22:21:40
Quote:
Distributing tech 2 with agents and lotteries?? Come on, who came up with such a lame idea....
Exactly, as a soon to be un-needed character in Eve...I would also like to know who is responsible for removing the job of the PC scientist in Eve in favor of NPC scientists. I want to know who is responsible for this attack upon the PC scientific community as a whole.
Words allowed on this forum cannot begin to explain my frustration at this point with the CCP dev team as they prepare to shaft scientists harder than we have ever felt it before. The only class I can see more hurting than us would be the poor traders needing their skills in-game.
Why not remove science skills entirely from the game (seriously consider it if you really plan to make these changes) and ignore it as a "bad dream". I would prefer that to having to resort to being a mission runner just to be a "scientist".
So please CCP, if you really plan to make these terrable and distructive changes to the game just remove science skills. At least then I will have a less sour taste in my mouth. Games are made up of the stories of PC characters, not NPC characters. Sure NPCs are great tools for starting a new story and then supporting it along the way. But I believe that the stories of Eve should be in the hands of players and how they choose to make them. Not by NPCs and random lotteries to see what NPC will give what BP to what PC. Please try to see the wisdom in valuing PC characters over NPCs or you might as well not have GMs for in-story scenes. In fact why have PC scientists at all if all they can do is research mineral and production values...oh and make now limited BPCs.
How are random lotteries research anyway?
PS. Sorry to the person who thought up this idea in the first place, I am not intenting to attack you. But I do not belive that this is the way that Eve "research" progression should be conducted. It simply makes no sense at all that my PC cannot do nearly what a lowly NPC and a lottery can do.
Well if you actually bothered to read the original post you would see that it is not random. You accumulate research points in certain fields at a rate based on your research agents skill and your skill.
The process is like a raffle with research points being like tickets. The more research points you have the greater your chances of getting a reward are.
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Azure Skyclad
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Posted - 2003.11.29 13:31:00 -
[161]
....which still isn't research. It's tantamount to Track and Field without the RSI. Hump your agent as quickly as possible to get research points..You and X other people who get enough points enter a lottery to win a BP.
Disappointment overwhelms me. It's not research. Sure, it should take a long time. Sure, it should require work....but this?
It's basically a GM moderated handout.
It's an evasive solution for CCP who, as i said earlier are unwilling or unable to implement a decent research system.
Once more CCP,
"Go away and do it again"
La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs
Star Fraction
http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/ |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.29 13:55:00 -
[162]
"Disappointment overwhelms me. It's not research. Sure, it should take a long time. Sure, it should require work....but this?"
... Ever wondered why in pretty much all computer games the 'research' boils down to clicking 'start project' and waiting until a nice gauge fills up?
Research simply isn't something which can be done both faithfully and 'fun'. You could perhaps make it a strategic simulation where you have to allocate research team skills, secure funding and resources, take care of possible corporate espionage etc. But at the end of the day there's still very lil' difference between having to obtain 100 units of garbage for your research team so they can progress... and obtaining 100 units of garbage for your agent who then hands it to the research team they're leading for you.
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.29 17:07:00 -
[163]
Actualy you don't even need to "hump" your agent. Just tell them what you want to research and its like training a skill... no missions required.
J0 is right. I can't really think of a fun, interactive way research could be implemented within EVE. The only thing that makes real world research fun is a strong desire to learn and understand... something you can't really get from a game.
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Missa
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Posted - 2003.11.30 00:55:00 -
[164]
Quote:
Well if you actually bothered to read the original post you would see that it is not random. You accumulate research points in certain fields at a rate based on your research agents skill and your skill.
The process is like a raffle with research points being like tickets. The more research points you have the greater your chances of getting a reward are.
I fail to see the difference between lotteries and raffles . I understand them to be the same thing.
--Missa
New Siggy to Come Soon(tm) |
Azure Skyclad
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Posted - 2003.11.30 03:59:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Azure Skyclad on 30/11/2003 04:01:55
[Quote]Research simply isn't something which can be done both faithfully and 'fun'. You could perhaps make it a strategic simulation where you have to allocate research team skills, secure funding and resources, take care of possible corporate espionage etc. But at the end of the day there's still very lil' difference between having to obtain 100 units of garbage for your research team so they can progress... and obtaining 100 units of garbage for your agent who then hands it to the research team they're leading for you.
This would be a step in the right direction though j0sephine. As it stands, your idea involves more interaction than the current one. Dunno, a scientist's personal skills could affect the efficacy of the team he leads? Hell! At least all those research characters out there would have something to do. Many folks created science based characters as they forsaw a need for them in the future. I get the feeling the rug just got pulled out from under them. A character who spends her life with her nose in books should be better at this than someone who fights or trades for a living. In some areas, i could research stuff just as well, if not better than a dedicated scientist and i'm not even a scientist.
Doesn't that just seem wrong to you?
I seem to remember one of the editions of Traveller (old SciFi RPG for you young'uns  ) which had a research method using skills and random dice rolls.....Something EVE already does in abundance.
I don't remember the system exactly but it revolves around proposition and testing of hypotheses (using skills and rolls) Proving or refuting your hypothesis with experimentation. Certain rolls gave critical success or failure outcomes depending on skill and luck.
Obviously, the the range of hypotheses you could propose are limited because of the environment of a computer game. However, the tech 2 skills list already provides some solid examples of research areas and some possible sub disciplines which could be explored. The hypothesis propose/experiment/validate/refute/advance/discard system would then offer a bit of an "oooooo" factor. A bit of "Cack! Back to the drawing board" or "Yes! Break out that bottle of vintage we were saving!" For a scientist. Something which is only really enjoyed by the fighting community at the moment.
Now, thats just a rough something tossed into the arena to be considered and applauded or ripped to pieces by your good selves. The point i'm trying to make is something with a bit more substance than what is currently on offer was surely within the capabilities of a bunch of people able to produce something like EVE. My question remains,
"If they could, why didn't they?"
or perhaps
"Is the solution on offer worthy of my continued patronage?"
I enjoy a different aspect of EVE to be completely hacked off by this. I do feel a pang of sympathy for people like Missa who feel like their career choice got demoted from "Important, integral part" to "Also ran"
Bleh, 3:50 am and i'm coming up with this
La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs
Star Fraction
http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/ |
Usharin Silverberg
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Posted - 2003.12.02 12:31:00 -
[166]
Azure, I think that was in the Hiver or Solarian alien module - I'll dig it out of the loft later and have a look - would be nice if they could implement the system like that (bt OT but traveller was the greatest of all the RPGs )
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Lucas Bowman
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Posted - 2003.12.03 01:44:00 -
[167]
OMG! What are you people thinking! (Hint, I don't like the idea). Okay, you've got everybody complaining about how everybody is sticking with secure space and won't go out to 0.0 sectors to play/work. Now introduce agent only release of tech 2 bp's. Now everybody out in 0.0 come on back to secure space to get an agent. Don't bother heading back out cause you gotta keep checking on your little buddy to make sure he's working. This is a real deep space killer idea if you're actually going to do this.
Let me repost an idea that sounds alot better than this one. Make science characters more valuable by allowing tech breakthroughs at certain levels of research levels. For an example, let's say at 100 Min Eff & 100 Prod Eff you then begin to have a chance for a breakthrough to tech 2. Sure simple items could be gained pretty quickly, but ship advancments will take quite a bit of research dedication to accomplish a tech breakthrough. At least the technology would be equally available to all and science becomes a critical portion to the game. My two cents.
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.12.03 21:31:00 -
[168]
what i dont understand IS WHY THERE IS NO TEAM WORK!! when do you see 1 man research??? WHEN????
there should be a camp of amount of ppl can do research, but i think it should be that the higher tech the more ppl and the longer it would take to GET the research... its only LOGICAL
low lvl could be done by individuals, but higher tech should always req more then 1 person, and yes it is fair, because thats how its done...
you cant make everyone happy but making it so that everyone can solo researching everything is just DUMB
you wouldnÆt need a mega corp, since there would be a cap on how many people can effectively work on a project, and maybe make it so others can join but you get stacking type of nerfà
all this means is people would just need few other players, they can be friends or some alliesà this game is a MMO its not single player were you just go and do your own thing with NPCÆs
I urge CCP to reconsider, and put in team work into research as it should be.
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Drutort
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Posted - 2003.12.03 21:43:00 -
[169]
Quote:
Screw Agents. Corps should be able to Research without them. I wouldnt hate them so much if every thing about them was not so damn boring. Doing Agent missions is like the single player version of EVE. I'm tired of all the good stuff (like implants) being given EXCLUSIVELY through this crappy Agent system. Agents are great for peeps who are afraid to fly into 0.0 and kill 50k pirates. BUT, for those of us that do have the balls, we should be rewarded with good pirate drops like implants and Tech II BP's. This is very frustrating.
yes pretty much your connected to eve and chat with ppl and do agents as if you had a chat program open and talked with friends while you played single player game 
they need to WORK on TEAM WORK ABILITY... if they could at least throw in that you need more ppl for the agent mission, then i would say well... at least you improve your odds a bit... but everyone soloing is just stupid
it so goes against the hole game, and the hole MMO thing of doing stuff with others...
its far to much based on single player style which most dont like other wise we would NOT BE HERE PLAYING EVE IN FIRST PLACE
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Drutort
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Posted - 2003.12.03 21:53:00 -
[170]
Now thinking this over a bit, if the devÆs still want agents in the equation then they MUST put multi-player in the equation as wellà
Make it that you can work in teams maybe start of with 5 other players with skills to work with that agent, to get the tech/bpÆs
BUT please you must have the multi-player part in the equation or else its like single player.
Other games have many players go and kill npcÆs here we have same with npc piratesà now we need many players coming together doing research that npc agent gives out etcà
NOT SINGLE PLAYER style.
Also im going to say that some form of online activity should boost your research, and offline research or points whatever should work but not as MUCH, we want interaction and that has to be done with players being active IE being online playing the game doing stuff.
Make higher tech and rare bpÆs req diff ppl with different skills, and not only scientistÆs as you need say some combat expert come in and tell the scientists what hell they want and need ppl to test there stuff etcà
All of the above is a lot more logical and feasible then just having single player with NPC agent.
I think people will agree with me, and I agree with there points, just hope that CCP/DevÆs look into this.
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.12.04 10:17:00 -
[171]
Edited by: j0sephine on 04/12/2003 10:18:12
"what i dont understand IS WHY THERE IS NO TEAM WORK!! when do you see 1 man research??? WHEN????"
... The chance of obtaining new blueprints is proportional to number of collected research points in given field.
You can take your accumulated research points from the agent, and give them to another person who can then give those points to their own agent.
Without resorting to caps, can you spot already how the team work can enhance your chances in this system?
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Vel Kyri
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Posted - 2003.12.04 12:41:00 -
[172]
I dont know if this is being stated yet (too many pages)
but a few things - yes you get research points based on your skills and the agent level...
agent level is based on your standing
the BP that you are eligible for depend on your skills. (need pre requisite skills.)
the research agent missions will have some differences - ie, some missions ill be "get me x items i want" which will boost the research points you have if you succeed, and reduce the amount if you fail.
then there will be "halting missions" which might be "i need a rare module X to continue my research" and until you succeed the mission, the agent does no more research for you in that area.
the nuber of research projects you have will be limited by skills.
===
to me this sounds great - a researcher can try to go it alone... but with a corp, you can have a char who specialises in science skills, and gets his corp mates to help with missions to get the faction ranking (already possible now)
personally i love the idea of the new system :)
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zukuroo
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Posted - 2003.12.04 13:49:00 -
[173]
can anyone tell me how this will affect tech1 blueprints? will they become worthless? or is there a way to research them into tech2?
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.12.04 19:49:00 -
[174]
its been said there will be two types of Tech 2 BP - one will be a direct build costing the full amount, the other will be an Conversion which uses the Tech 1 item as a base material (say using an Apocalypse as a material for an Apocalypse II) and cuts the cost dramatically (but also needs more "tooling")
.
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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nono
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Posted - 2003.12.05 06:30:00 -
[175]
Quote:
Edited by: j0sephine on 04/12/2003 10:18:12
"what i dont understand IS WHY THERE IS NO TEAM WORK!! when do you see 1 man research??? WHEN????"
... The chance of obtaining new blueprints is proportional to number of collected research points in given field.
You can take your accumulated research points from the agent, and give them to another person who can then give those points to their own agent.
Without resorting to caps, can you spot already how the team work can enhance your chances in this system?
Where did you get this tidbit of information from?
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.12.05 12:00:00 -
[176]
#eve-chaos nono :)
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.12.05 15:12:00 -
[177]
"#eve-chaos nono :)"
Actually, from the very Chaos -.^
(only few hours till i get Science 5 on Chaos myself, wheeeee :o!
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nono
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Posted - 2003.12.05 15:31:00 -
[178]
Thanks for the reply 
Dose this '^' mean it's in this thread somewhere?
And more importantly is this the end for anyone not in an uber corp to actually have a chance of obtaining anything in the next century?
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2003.12.05 17:27:00 -
[179]
well so far from what ive seen it looks good, but this issue needs to be adressed with the implentation of the castor patch
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Lucas Bowman
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Posted - 2003.12.06 01:34:00 -
[180]
I was REALLY hoping someone would chime in and say that I was wrong about having to come into secure space to get a tech agent. So this is really going to be a 0.0 killer?
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