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Draxx
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Posted - 2003.11.07 10:22:00 -
[91]
One thing that people seem to be assuming here is that once they have the bp, they will be able to manufacture from it.
What if the manufacturing requirements are not the same as the bp aquisition (agent research) requirements.
From what I can tell from the adv tech skills, the requirements for tech 2 manufacturing are pretty high, especially if you want to be a general manufacturer. |
Bite Me
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Posted - 2003.11.08 17:36:00 -
[92]
well i got 1 agent. hoping shes will be a researcher. Ow . Wait its still me trainer  
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.11.08 23:22:00 -
[93]
well, as I understand it they intend to release only a set quantity of each of the BP's for the higher techs - via this research auction system (you bid for the copys when they release them with the research points you've built up) so the prices will not come down unless the limited pool of people with a particular item try to undercut each other (might happen with little demand items I guess, but high demand items if anything prices might actually rise if the manufacturers cant keep up with demand)
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Sabahl
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Posted - 2003.11.11 21:43:00 -
[94]
I hope to god this thread is being read by Papa Smurf and co because this idea is fatally flawed unless one specific issue is addressed.
The idea of accruing points in player selected research areas is a good one. But the CCP lottery timing will be a major disaster UNLESS ALL ITEMS ARE RELEASED SIMULTANEOUSLY.
Let me say this again. If CCP decides to release a single item onto the market by way of a blueprint lottery they will HAVE to release all items at the same time. Either that or else they will have to release advance information as to the sequence of the technology releases. Why? Because if they do not then the people who were lucky enough to research the areas which CCP decided to release first will have an advantage over everyone else brought about by nothing other than dumb luck.
How would this affect the the game universe, and more precisely the economic infrastructure which has been built up? Effectively it would have pretty much the same effect as the release of miner 2 BPs. The more or less random release of an individual technology to a select group of people gave them a huge advantage in the capability to gather cash.
Lets give an example. Imagine there are three items ti research, th SmurgleBlaster, the HumungaCargoBay and the SpeedyZipAfterburner. People have no idea which item to research so a third opt to research each of the technologies. However, unknown to them, CCP have decided the timeline dictates that tyey will release the technologies in the order of Speedy, Humunga and Smurgle at two week intervals. So what happens? Firstly, the pople who researched Speedy first will be able to start gathering cash from the proceeds of their research immediately while the Humungas and the Smurgles will just have to sit on their arses waiting for their tech to be released. Secondly, a fair proportion of the Speedies will see that they have had their goodies released to them and will switch research to the Humunga and Smurgle track hoping to get another BP, thereby diluting the chance to get a BP for those who didn't even start by researching Speedy.
The entire thing wouldn't be so much a lottery as a crap shoot. It penalises those who were in the wrong place at the wrong time for no fault of their own. This is not the way to keep people interested.
The solution would be to work out a method to allow an equal chance to profit from their research. Unfortunately, the lottery process is most certainly not the way to do it.
Now, I do have some ideas as to how the system could work, and I even have some suggestions as to how it could be seemlessly incorporated into the existing Eve storyline without any need for changes to the existing or future structure of the game galaxy's unfolding history but it's all rather involved and would take up far too much time here, especially if CCP is not even going to read this. However, if any of the devs are interested I would be happy to email my thoughts if they may be of use.
Cheers
Sabahl
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Dealer
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Posted - 2003.11.11 23:32:00 -
[95]
This may have already been posted before but, oh well.
Way back in Beta there was a skill for a Chief Science Officer. The skill description was to allow gang research.
Now I believe the skill has now been dropped... I asked that it be reinstated. Eldariel's ideas were great. When I was checking out this game the research possibilites were what pulled me in. Visions of a Civilization style tech tree with a research team to work with sounded great.
I am sorry but the agent proposal sounds ok but, not as intriging as a team of researchers working on a bp for the next breakthrough.
Just my 2 isk.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2003.11.12 14:27:00 -
[96]
Sabahl you miss the point. Free Market is what you just descrided as bad. You are wrong. It is about the right place at the time. Choose wisely my friend......
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
McWatt
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Posted - 2003.11.12 18:46:00 -
[97]
Edited by: McWatt on 12/11/2003 18:48:49
 Quote:
Sabahl you miss the point. Free Market is what you just descrided as bad. You are wrong. It is about the right place at the time. Choose wisely my friend......
free marked = random giving out of BP s by a higher deity?
hm.
i don t like to bring up the miner 2 story, but if this is what you had in mind with right time/right place, have fun.
Sabahl is right, because there are important issues, forcing them to do a slow introduction of items. this is mainly to stretch out the "big event" (yes, slower baby).
it s quite clear that there will be a rush for certain BP s as only a handfull of them offer miner 2- money making- quality...
it will be great fun.
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Sabahl
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Posted - 2003.11.12 18:55:00 -
[98]
Exactly. This is nothing to do with economics or free markets, as you put it. It's everything to do with game ballance. The proposed release of blueprints would be stupendously unballancing if managed in the way described.
Unfortunately, such problems with the release of BPs will have a direct impact upon the fragile player economy. At that point, those who have will happily say that it's all about a "free market". Well it isn't. It's about poor game design. You either give everyone an equal starting position and playing field within which to compete or else you end up creating a super-stratified player community where those who did not have the chance to obtain the goodies early realise they can never catch up and quit.
The theory of having agents distribute BPs by a lottery amongst those who have put in the time to gain a chance to obtain them is a good one. The method itself will not work within the confines of a highly limited, staggered technoogy release.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2003.11.12 20:45:00 -
[99]
We I think you miss one thing, Technology does not all occur in one moment.
I understand your FAIR play you dream of, I would hope that a few make the big bucks. They are the lucky ones.
I would hope things are a progression. There is a BP for a better miner drone which makes a better repair drone ect. You could place any tech 2 item there. What happens if it all fair then there will be no market. Consider companies now. You buy the latest computer and next year there is a better one and so on. So your concept is wrong based on the RL exp.
Lottery is the fairest. If no one comes up with the idea then there is in no BP. PC's have to make the ideas that trigger a agent to generate the flow to a BP.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Temujin Destovai
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Posted - 2003.11.12 22:43:00 -
[100]
Reading this I have to say this entire system seems really unrealistic and disappointing. Training up for Tech 2 Items on Agents, after doing treadmill agent missions for faction standings, and then getting the items via a lottery. This is definitally what I would call #1 realistic or #2 fun
Im also still a bit in the dark on how corp agents work. Do they give missions that you could theoretically only complete with more than 1 person, or does it allow you to pool research points together to afford bigger projects (this would defintally be cooler).
The way it stands the entire concept of Tech I blueprints being researched or of any use at all is being totally left aside, same goes for being able to use ISK to fund research projects. Infact the entire corporation and community aspect seems to be left out. When we aquired our miner II and shield amp bps we had our guys simply running missions around the clock, which was mindnumbingly boring for them, and let us in no way at all support them. Then they recieved "valuable" blueprints which should theoretically require logistical support, labs etc, for simply transporting grain and tritanium?
A system where you run agent missions and your research agent says, "Hey are you interested in setting up a team for a strike force tech 2 apocalypse hull?" upon which you then give him your apoc tech I original, and then work with your corporation to aquire research points by running missions, and/or aquiring points according to your research level etc, until you finally after lots of work and labour get your improved blueprint back, would be challenging. (same for all other Tech II bps, where you actually research Tech I bps with your agent/team (or alone which would take longer). And instead of releasing original tech II bps, maybe some agents who managed to aquire them, could sell them to his runners for money perhaps.
Atleast make it something that goes above
#1 treadmill agent for faction
#2 get research agent, watch points go up
#3 lottery for blueprints
#4 yay some random guy gets lucky
#5 and on and on it goes
just some ideas :o
The Chronicles of Xanadu |
Angry Sheep
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Posted - 2003.11.12 22:48:00 -
[101]
2p worth - sucks,
Agent missions are bad for me as im only on a few hours and that time i run my factories, this is a giant penalty system, only those that grind for hours get something.
I am paying to have fun - not run agent missions, you must have at least 2 points of entry for any tech or BP, that way thge PAYING customer has a CHOICE
*rant over, sorry - ill have a drink now
It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
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Tituan
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Posted - 2003.11.13 00:31:00 -
[102]
I think this is really a silly way of doing things. A research char shouldn't be able to be an alt or something, rather a char with at least a couple mil skill pts invested in research skills (wich aren't in the game yet) This would deter alot of people from jumping on the research bandwagon.
However the reason I truly hate this idea is that I believe you should have to own the origional BP to research the tech lvl 2. Think of all the billions of isk people spent buying BS Blue prints, and now their industry has the potential to be destroyed by some guy whom got lucky in an agent auction and got a techII bp from his agent. Thats absurd.
Rather let Research characters(Again research chars would be those with millions of skill pts dedicated different research skills, Example skill could be Amarr Battleship Tech lvl 20 skill) research BPS to the next tech lvl.
CCP could monitor how many people are researching what BPs and set the required amount of research time needed before there is even a chance of a breakthrough. Thus if there is alot of people researching Miner BPs in hope for a Miner II bp CCP could make it so there would have to be 1000+ hrs of research required, then every additional hour there is a 0.02% cumalitive chance of having a breakthrough. the time required and chance would be modified by the char's skills. Also allow group researching so that several chars working together pool thier research together.
Only allow players to have 1 tech research project going at a time(perhaps allow an expensive very high lvl skill allow for more)
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Luther Pendragon
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Posted - 2003.11.13 00:44:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 13/11/2003 00:55:56
This idea is terrible. Not one good thing about it. Agents distributing or tinkering with BPs fine, but not the definitive game method of BP/research work.
There is only one way people want it to work, players have said how they want it to work, this is identical to how CCP have said how it was intended to work since before alpha, and it is very clear and very obvious how research is supposed to work.
Research is supposed to occur in the research lab. Researchers were supposed to be able to pool their research skills together to increase research. Industrials were supposed to be able to be outfitted as a research lab. Agents were supposed to give access to secret goods, special stations with secret goods, special deals, supposed to do hacking, unlock closed star gates to secret space areas, supposed to spy on other corps.
Stick to the plan.
If this continues to be handled in this ad hoc and haphazard way, tech II will again screw up the Eve economy.
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
Missa
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Posted - 2003.11.13 09:18:00 -
[104]
I find the idea that agents are going to be handing out tech 2 BPs through a lottery + time system simply appalling as a player and a Scientist in the Eve universe. I wholeheartedly believe that if this system goes through it will be in my opinion worse than the “give a advanced miner to a random player” scandal that happened some time ago. Scientists should be the ones researching better BPs, NOT agent runners (no offence to you poor guys with that mind numbing job). Sure BPs should be rewards from some agent missions, but the introduction of new tech items really involve the scientist PCs, not some new Agent scientist NPC. I mean seriously, if this goes through, I will be more useless as a scientist than a NPC! I would like to think that as a player character I would be more important to the game than a NPC…especially when I happen to specialize in a particular part of that game.
Tech introduction through agent missions as a long term solution to introduce new items is totally  insane. I am sorry I cannot put it any kinder way. Please find a better fix and soon.
--Missa
New Siggy to Come Soon(tm) |
Sabahl
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Posted - 2003.11.13 12:18:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Sabahl on 13/11/2003 12:22:47
Harisdrop, you have completely missed the point. This is NOT about "fair play". It is about game ballance. You can't just randomly trigger game events of such magnitude without there being a negative impact upon the game's economy and thusly upon the entire game itself. It needs to be done in a controlled manner and that means removing the random aspect. CCP arbitrarily releasing random BPs as they decide the technology warrants is incredibly bad design.
What would be far more sensible would be if the BPs were released upon a set amount of research points being accrued globally in a specific research area. That would be a true player-driven economy, with the players effectviely dictating what technologies are released through their own research efforts rather than a deus-ex-machina intrusion by the devs (and it would also make more sense as higher amounts of research in an area should return the goodies faster anyway). But this is not what CCP have said they would be doing. They are just going to randomly release technologies as and when they think it would be a good idea.
Which is ridiculous.
So let me spell this out. The distribution method of allowing the BPs to be "lottoed" amongst the people who have put in the time to accrue research points is a good idea. However, the sequence that the technology is released has to be highly controlled and cannot be done randomly in a sequence which only the devs are aware of.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2003.11.13 13:46:00 -
[106]
You all are just mad that your mega corps dont have monopolies. 1)Why do you believe that anyone that works hard for agents should not be rewarded. It seems to me that this game need specialized professions. I see all these skills characters have. They think that a manufacturer should be doing research then hop in his spacecraft and go kill a few pirates. That is soo not realistic. Its about choice.
The way things happen in real life are not fair or balanced. The world is dog eat dog. Find your path and not worry what others are doing cause you CANT control them. The Market should make people do the what the market wants. If Noxcium is cheap make things with it and pull a profit. I believe decay will fix everything in the market not tech 2.
2) Tech II will be ohhs and ahhs but not common. With decay you will see things become harder to keep. "They dont make things like they use to." Things will just degrade where that range is not as far or the cpu its using is not a efficient or shields are not working 100%. Time to go get a new one or get a a mechanic to repair it.
Its not about you its about the market. You might be the one that makes it big but everyone should not be so fortunate. Life is not fair. Things happen that you can not control.
Life lesson.............
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Tituan
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Posted - 2003.11.13 16:09:00 -
[107]
Mad about mega corps haveing monopolies??? Umm no, I'm research based char and CEO of my own one person company. Currently I mine, trade, kill some pirates(though not good at it) etc... Why? because thats all for me to do, researching in EVE is a joke, their is absoluty no point in training skills related to research(although mine are all r5 in hopes that ccp will introduce more and make the scientist a viable proffesion)
I don't have any monopolies on the market, yet I am very much against this idea of using agents for tech II. Releasing tech II BPs in this manner isn't even working towards it, people spent billions trying to get tech I battle ship blue prints and you're going to tell me that I'm just upset that your 100 hours worth of agent running was more work than the 1000+ man hours it takes to make enough to purchace a BS BP original??? (lol biggest run on sentance award goes to me, too lazy to fix =) )
I'm sorry but their should be alot of investment on player's behave both time, char skills, and isk for people to get Tech II BPs, not just see whom does xx amount of agent missions and gets "lucky" in a lottery. Anyone whom has spent the money to purchase an original BP and takes an enormous amount of time researching the BP should eventually get the Tech II version of that BP providing that they have the vast amount of researching skills needed to research the Tech increase(skills that need to be implemented).
The EVE market should not be destroyed by freelancers whom get "lucky" in some lottery thus ruining months of other corp's work and isk.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2003.11.13 20:27:00 -
[108]
Quote:
Why? because thats all for me to do, researching in EVE is a joke, their is absoluty no point in training skills related to research(although mine are all r5 in hopes that ccp will introduce more and make the scientist a viable proffesion)
From CCP:
"Research agents will generally have a skill level equal to their agent level. The rate at which you accrue research points is dictated by the skill level of your and your agent, whichever is lowest, and slightly by agent quality. Also, blueprints will have minimum skill levels required to get them. For Example the Gallente SmurgleBlaster IV requires Gallente Weapon Tech level 4 and General Smurgle Fields 2."
Notice your skills will base what type of BP you get. Those skill that will be made availible with Tech II will make you specialized in a specific field of research.So first you have to have a 4 skill level Research, then under those are specific skills. www.eve-db.com has a good science skill list. So consider the level 5 skills you have.
So really the player/agent will drive the BP distribution. If a scientist class in game does not exist for Propulsion there will be no tech II propulsion. Its the market that will drive PC Scientists to fill those items that are demanded. It will be upto the PC scientist to choose his field that he believes will make him/corp the most profit. The skill time sink is incredible. Look at the skill req to get some of those science skills. Choose the wrong one and you might have to play catch up. Sounds like real life to me. Fair no balance no real yes market yes.... ITS YOUR CHOICE follow the it well.
I believe Tech I was a prelim for what you want to do. TECH II, TECH III, TECH IV, TECH V will make a specific field choice for each scientist character.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Belzavior
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Posted - 2003.11.13 22:17:00 -
[109]
Yet still you have to now do the agent ladder, and you could be the most brilliant scientist in the EVE universe yet being held back by a crummy agent, because the NPC doesn't have very good skills.
Another thing you failed to address is the fact that this method costs very little compared to those whom purchase expensive blue prints that will be outdated after the release of TECH II.
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Sabahl
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Posted - 2003.11.14 11:41:00 -
[110]
Quote:
It will be upto the PC scientist to choose his field that he believes will make him/corp the most profit. The skill time sink is incredible. Look at the skill req to get some of those science skills. Choose the wrong one and you might have to play catch up. Sounds like real life to me. Fair no balance no real yes market yes.... ITS YOUR CHOICE follow the it well.
This is the last response I am writing to Harisdrop because he is justbeing obtuse for no reason.
Contrary to your beliefs this is nothing at all liek the real world. In the "real world" you find that investing huge amounts of time into researching a problem tends to result in a speedier solution to that problem being discovered. Not so given this new method of BP release. You could have the entire server researching SpeedyZip Afterburners but if CCP decide that they are releasing Smurgleblasters first there is bugger all you can do about it. That is nothing like real life. That is a deus ex machina operation, completely taking game evolution out of the players' hands and forcing it down a track whcih only the devs have advance knowledge of.
And that's the problem. It is impossible to play a game if you have no way of knowing what results can arise from your actions. You could play an absolute perfect game and yet if the devs decide to investigate something entirely different you are screwed through no fault of your own. It would be like trying to have a game of chess where the pieces moved randomly on the board every other turn.
Very simple, really. If you can't understand this I recommend going away and reading some books on elementary game design theory. Because no matter how much you want this to be a real life experience it is still just a game.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2003.11.14 13:26:00 -
[111]
First: Sometimes the greatest investment now has no meaning the next day.
Second: There are many exapmles of technology not coming in a timely manner. Just think if Napolean got the automatic machine gun. Or Germany had the nuclear weapon in 1940. Man I wish I had and Xbox in 1975 when I was a kid...
I will never be convinced that life is fair or balanced. This game is not like others. Thats why I like it.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Brand McKnight
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Posted - 2003.11.14 18:31:00 -
[112]
So to sum it up you want to be rewarded for relatively nothing?
But lets use examples that make's sense shall we?
Do you see new small and inexperianced corporations produce automobiles that are better than the major car production companies??
What companies are constantly pushing for better products? The companies that are working in that industry. You would be insane to think that someone could just barge into an industry that he has no background in and be able to suddenly dominate it(as would be the case in this so called agent "lotto")
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Qual
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Posted - 2003.11.14 19:13:00 -
[113]
Quote:
Another thing you failed to address is the fact that this method costs very little compared to those whom purchase expensive blue prints that will be outdated after the release of TECH II.
First of my char is a great science guy. I look forward to start getting outside station soon to do agent missions.
What i hope is to get the BP's that will allow me to upgrade Tech I ships to Tech II ships. TOgether with my large collection of high ME Tech I ship bp's i'll mae loads'o'money.
I really dont see the problem...
Head of Xanadu Elite Ships Department |
Mirial
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Posted - 2003.11.15 01:26:00 -
[114]
Big doesn't always equate to better or success. Often it does due to greater resources spent on R&D and products but not always. Think about Apple and Microsoft when they started out, compared to the behemoth of IBM, or later Netscape against the giant Microsoft had become.
The problem in EVE is how to let there be a great enough reward to justify pouring large amounts of ISK and/or time into research yet leave an opening for new breakthroughs by smaller corps and not just lead to the rich getting richer (or more high tech) indefinitely.
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Albar Gray
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Posted - 2003.11.15 07:07:00 -
[115]
I was wondering if there would be a limit on the number of agents you could have 'assisting' you with research projects / teams.
If each project counted against the number of lab slots you were allowed, then it would make at least one of the research skills useful. (Laboratory Operation)
If the rate at which you accumulate research points is dependent on your research skills, then at least they are being used as well.
However, if the agent is 'assisting' you with the running of a research project, then why don't they allow you to set-up your own research project in a lab of your choosing
It could work in exactly the same way, except there would be no agent bonus to the rate at which research points were gained, and it would cost the lab rental fee.
Also if the lab needed anything, it is just as capable of eve-mailing the player as any agent.
Of course, this approach might see all the research labs gobbled up in under 2 hours, so some care may be needed. But if you limit things to the laboratory operation, then it would just be a way of filling your available slots, an agent with a bonus, or a lab.
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IÆm not schizophrenic...
ThatÆs my alt
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Yodd
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Posted - 2003.11.15 09:47:00 -
[116]
I think the idea is good, it adresses several important points:
1 Number of BPs on market needs to be limited
2 Research skills should be used
3 You should have to invest time with your character, otherwise alts are just created and sits there passively, rendering research profession useless.
I don't see any other solution to (3) than having to do agent missions at the moment, but feel free to suggest one. The important thing is not agent missions, but the point 3 above.
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Helison
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Posted - 2003.11.15 11:36:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Helison on 15/11/2003 11:38:46
Research has to cost something. You should have to supply minerals, other components and also ISK. And you should have already have the BP from tech I.
Why should a freelancer be able to research a Megathron II? But a freelancer should be able to research a better afterburner, if he has the BP for afterburner I.
Quote:
1 Number of BPs on market needs to be limited
This is the only point, which isnŠt really possible with lab-research.
And this is also a point, which is very dangerous. Look at the Miner2-issue! 2 Corps sold them for extremous prices, very many people complained about this and why? CCP didnŠt introduce enough BPs. Now it could be possible, that CCP wants to prevent this situation and introduces too much new BPs. The result would be, that Tech II items will be underpriced on the market very fast and the market will remain dead.
I think, that it will be better, if players can decide, which BP they want to research.
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Belzavior
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Posted - 2003.11.15 20:14:00 -
[118]
As for limiting BP's I don't think there should be an X limit. If someone invested enough into BS bp and had no chance to research to the next tech lvl of that billion isk investment it is now next to worthless, no one is gonna wann buy the bp because its outdated and no one is gonna buy his outdated ships.
I would like to see dynamic limits placed on the bp introduction. To slow the introduction. So the more BPs in existance the longer it will take for someone else to research.
This would help to force corporations to research in new fields, and not prohibit them the chance to break into competitive market.
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.11.15 22:53:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Eldariel on 15/11/2003 22:56:01
Quote:
And you should have already have the BP from tech I
I keep seeing this and I really can't understand it. It's self perpetuating - only those with massive ISK resources at their disposal will be able to research items of real worth if its linked to BP ownership. The lower end players might as well just give up ...that's just bad design
Whatever the system is, it definitely needs to recognise the BP investment made by corps/ individuals to date (i.e. its integrated in some way with the end to end process of generating an upgraded BP), but I would definitely *not* like to see "profitable" research the domain of megacorps only
That would, to coin a phrase ... suck
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Helison
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Posted - 2003.11.15 23:33:00 -
[120]
Quote:
I keep seeing this and I really can't understand it. It's self perpetuating - only those with massive ISK resources at their disposal will be able to research items of real worth if its linked to BP ownership. The lower end players might as well just give up ...that's just bad design
IŠm CEO of a small corp with about 12 members without any real expensive BPs (no cruiser or BS). But I am interested in researching the BPs which we own. An afterburner II BP or a wasp II BP could be very good and rewarding BPs.
There isnŠt any logic, that we could research a Megathron II BP. And I donŠt like the idea, that BPs are distributed by a lottery. I want work for it and I want to know for what I work.
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