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Missa
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Posted - 2003.11.04 20:55:00 -
[61]
Hello,
I am a scientist here in Eve and I must say that I am dissapointed once again...Why must I...a scientist...have to find a NPC scientist through agent missions to "research" (if you can call it that) a higher tech of BP.
--Missa
New Siggy to Come Soon(tm) |
ShadowHawk
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Posted - 2003.11.04 21:15:00 -
[62]
I fully agree with the posting of those who say that research should not involve NPCs. Research is currently an absolute joke and that shows in many areas including the market which is currently purely price driven. If you offer an item cheaper than someone else, you're going to make the sale... location is hardly ever a bonus over price. There is no way that someone can produce a 'better' item than the competition, and that is because of the complete lack of anything resembling research even remotely.
If I go back to pre release marketing hypes, there was a lot of talk how you could choose to be a fighter (check), a miner (check), a trader (sorta check), or a researcher (... say what???). CCP has so far completely failed to deliver on the research aspect of EVE.
I liked the post of Steini (or what ever his name was, can't remember). It should be a colaborate effort of different team members to propell a research into a successful product. The idea of requiring materials related to what you're trying to build gets around the idle research proposed by papa smurf where all you need is enough time, multiple people in the same corp participating and some sheer luck.
I hope any of the Polaris/CCP are actually reading this thread and note the common tone that research so far is a joke and that the proposed system doesn't do much to remedy that situation.
Make research a team effort where people have to work together instead of brainless agent based activities. This way you create a new facet of the game that you promised in lots of colors during the hype phase but have completely failed to deliver so far.
Read Steini's post once more and think about it a bit more... I'm sure you can come up with a way to introduce REAL research instead of the lottery system you proposed.
Your 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I perfectly strikes Sansha's Scavenger, wrecking for 264.3 damage.
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Ayar Cachi
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Posted - 2003.11.04 21:44:00 -
[63]
Really great to get some detailed info about improvements that are coming.
Agents slipping their favourite brown-nosers a confidential bp, like some inside info or trade-secret leak, is totally sensible and appropriate.
*However*, it is also totally sensible and appropriate to provide Player scientists to 'create' bps through a lab-oriented process that requires similar levels of dedication, chance, or whatever is fair.
I hope the devs working on this aren't disheartened by some of the 'single side' comments here--what you've got sounds great and an improvement I look forward to. But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be *other* ways of creating/getting tech breakthroughs.
Multiple-valid-paths is sort of a modern RPG idea, hmm?
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.11.04 23:28:00 -
[64]
Actually, this is a rather good thing for researchers
You can't reearch something alone, not whilst you're out ganking people (i love that word) or mining or anything else. It shoudl require effort.
Why not divert that effort to a team of researchers (npcs) and get them (through missions) the items/supplies/goods that they need to get breakthroughs
If you think about it and if the missions are scripted well enough (I volunteer to help) it will help Immersion immensely. You'll be the lead scientist to a team you command, and in turn you render them services, pay them if you wll. They pool their resources under your capable hands and with your superior knowledge and incredible brainpower, you'll get them to produce you the SmurgleBlaster IV in no time!
The more i think about it the better it sounds..
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Rocket Bob
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Posted - 2003.11.04 23:55:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Rocket Bob on 05/11/2003 00:00:23
EVE is a massively multiplayer online game. Why play a multiplayer game only to spend your whole time online interfacing with NPCs? It's a collosal waste of resources and potential to turn a multiplayer game into a huge array of players interacting with content instead of players playing with other players. Every MMO has NPCs to fill in the gaps that can't be fairly or practically filled in by human players, but the ideal goal for any serious MMO design and for any serious MMO player is to totally remove them from the gameplay. EVE seemed, at first, to be a game that was developed to cater to those players who didn't want to waste thier online time ****ing around with AI scripts. The PVP everywhere aspect, emphasis on corporations and the obstacles to solo-ing which are huge relative to other MMOs seemed to be designed to encourage multiplayer interaction, teamwork and the forming of communities.
However, for some unknown reason, agents and NPC missions are continually empasised as an important aspect of gameplay. Those of us who play multiplayer games to play with other actual players beat our heads against the wall at the very thought of doing agent missions. Those who do swallow their pride and commit to endless hours of boredom doing these missions, forsake player interaction for the promise of some future reward which often are most valuable only in the broader multiplayer context. The message here is that to excel in this multiplayer game you must first go stay in a corner of the game world by yourself working a virtual treadmill. HOW UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.
Here's a novel idea for the developers who are so bent on the torturous idea of doing virtual work for an evenly distributed reward: make agent missions require multiple players! Have groups of players complete logistics missions that are much too large to be completed by a single character. Have NPC targets much too hardened for only one player to capture or destroy alone. Have one faction's agents sometimes require players to sabotage another faction's missions and return home with some token of proof--or even more open-ended and interesting: have agents assign missions to cause players who work for enemy factions to lose standing with their agents. This way players must work together or against eachother to meet shared goals. Suddenly the boring, stagnant system of player-NPC interaction is turned into a great engine for both multiplayer interaction and storyline involvement.
From the developer's standpoint, single-player agent missions as currently implemented, must represent a terrible return on investment. Players are forced to reuse the same content over and over to complete a finite number of mission types, they will always turn to something else for progression and fun, if given the opportunity. That might just include leaving for a different game!
Game items with general interactive features always have a greater return on investment in devloper hours than any kind of scripted content. If you simply give players some tools they will do interesting creative things that are more valuable to them than any kind of scripted quest completion.. Look what happened with cargo containers. Containers are one of the very few items in EVE with general player interactivity. They exist in the world independent of the player's self and they are accessable by just about everyone. Would CCP have ever guessed that some or a group like XFI would create advertisements at high-traffic jjump points by meticulously arranging cargo containers? Did they forsee containers being huge advantages in player battles? Did they have any idea that the demand for secure, anchorable containers would be extrordinarily high? So much so that many players make good
money simply by doing the footwork to bring containers to markets where they are not already
for sale.
Don't make NPC agents the interface point for players to become better "crafters"--not without first making thier missions multiplayer-oriented. Yes, make the manufacturing chain longer. Add skill bonuses and randomness to the outcome of each stage. Add variablity to the quality and utility of each "final" product. Allow crafters to leave their mark on the items they make. Put the tools and elements and incentives in the game for the players to work out their own complex social structures and to make their own lasting marks on the game world. Good luck.
Rocket Bob out.
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.11.05 09:49:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 09:55:43
 Quote:
Actually, this is a rather good thing for researchers
You can't reearch something alone, not whilst you're out ganking people (i love that word) or mining or anything else. It shoudl require effort.
But that's exactly what this is Discorporation. The only "effort" required is finding a research agent - after you've done that you're free to go off and do whatever you like in EVE. Research points are ticking up without you having to do *anything* ...
(I don't count aquiring and training new skills in this process since thats central to EVE play dynamics anyway)
I'm not against agent missions per-se, but research should require you to do something *material* in game (in much the same way as manufacturing requires you to bring multiple elements together to achieve a goal). Agent missions should provide some of the key ingredients (e.g. specialist skills only available via agents, tools to enhance the process), but shouldn't be the be all and end all of the process.
From the previous "how to introduce higher level technology" thread in the ideas forum the general consensus seemed to be :
1. Player driven research (using labs/ materials/ tools/ trade goods/ skills etc) and reverse engineering
2. Agent Missions
3. Random NPC pirate loot drops
Option #1 should be the primary route to aquiring tech advancement, with an increased chance of success relative to options #2 or #3. However, options #2 and #3 should also provide specialist items/ skills to improve diversity in #1 (i.e. make it difficult for any one corp/ individual to monopolise tech advancement)
Now *that* would be interesting and interactive content which requires "real" effort on the part of the player(s) ...
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Steini OFSI
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Posted - 2003.11.05 11:28:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Steini OFSI on 05/11/2003 11:30:01
Edit: double post.
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Steini OFSI
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Posted - 2003.11.05 11:29:00 -
[68]
Quote:
I liked the post of Steini (or what ever his name was, can't remember). It should be a colaborate effort of different team members to propell a research into a successful product. The idea of requiring materials related to what you're trying to build gets around the idle research proposed by papa smurf where all you need is enough time, multiple people in the same corp participating and some sheer luck.
I hope any of the Polaris/CCP are actually reading this thread and note the common tone that research so far is a joke and that the proposed system doesn't do much to remedy that situation.
Make research a team effort where people have to work together instead of brainless agent based activities. This way you create a new facet of the game that you promised in lots of colors during the hype phase but have completely failed to deliver so far.
Read Steini's post once more and think about it a bit more... I'm sure you can come up with a way to introduce REAL research instead of the lottery system you proposed.
thanks  .
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.11.05 12:04:00 -
[69]
Quote:
Now *that* would be interesting and interactive content which requires "real" effort on the part of the player(s) ...
But how do you see a researcher research things in-game? Quite frankly, even a researcher character needs backup. You can let production factories run infinately, I can even understand ME research being automated, but inventing completely new tech should require more people then just one.
Perhaps in addition to the Agent system, a sort of research pool thing for Corporations should be created. This should never approach the effectiveness of Agent research itself, however, who have an entire Empire behind them. Also, if such a system is considered, it would be preferable if this results only in the kind of BP's that upgrade techI items to TechII (the odd breakthrough here and there notwithstanding)
Acceptable? Have you got ideas on this?
(The idea lab thread is a mess O.o)
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.11.05 14:37:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 14:55:57
Quote:
but inventing completely new tech should require more people then just one
Actually I wouldn't agree with that.
Inventing new tech *should* be achievable by the individual - it should just take a hell of a lot longer than it would if you operate as part of a team ...
The downside to this is large megacorps will be favoured because they have such a large playerbase. To combat this (and avoid monopolisation on tech advancement) you need to introduce complexity in the process to make blanket research nigh on impossible.
Whether thats in the form of special skills/ goods consumed during research/ skills that are only available through agents or npc drops is another question...
Research itself could be something along the lines of :
1. aquire items x, y, z (not necessarily all available from market but could also be agents and/ or npc drops)
2. train skills required for specific tech specialisation area (again - specialised skills could be agent rewards)
3. mix it all up in the lab (similar to manufacturing now) to attempt research advancement
There are lots of possible ways of doing it. The difference is the above forces you to explore lots of other areas of the game (trade/ skills/ agents/ npc hunting), but with a sense of purpose behind it, and a heavy dose of player interaction. Running agent missions via the proposed approach is effectively a solo activity with no sense of achievement
Having a dependency on BPs is also very bad imho because it excludes the majority from research of high value BPs (i.e. only megacorps with loads of ISK will be able to purchase the BP original to researcdh against). That's why I suggested taking the research side of it a bit further by uncoupling research from the BPs (research produces scripts which can "upgrade" existing BP originals).
The real advantage with this is you don't need to own an original BPs to do the research - but in order to achieve the manufacturing benefit you do. Hence researchers could either sell these advancement scripts on the open market, or make the decision to enter manufacturing themselves (in which case they are going to have to make that expensive outlay for the original BP).
Probably too radical a change in the approach to be implemented anytime soon though (if at all)
It's worth remembering, however, that all of the above isn't at the expense of rare npc BP drops, or BP rewards from agents - just that it should be the preferred route with the highest probability of success ...
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Helison
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Posted - 2003.11.05 14:39:00 -
[71]
What will be the consequences of this new BP-distribution system:
Very many players will make missions at the same time to get a chance for a BP. You have to make the missions in empire space. -> Less player will travel to 0.0 to mine Bistot. -> The Megacyte and Zydrine price will rise extremly! 
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.11.05 14:54:00 -
[72]
Quote:
Good Stuff
Seems they listened to the upgrade script thing, in a sense that some BP's will be able used to upgrade tech I items (Eg, resources include a number of TechI items).
Also, I don't see why Agent missiosn have to be a solo activity. Devs have already stated that lvl4 and 5 agents will offer Corp missions.
Good stuff there, I hope the devs are paying attention ;)
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.11.05 15:06:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 15:14:49
Quote:
Also, I don't see why Agent missiosn have to be a solo activity. Devs have already stated that lvl4 and 5 agents will offer Corp missions
The 500 or so missions required to get you to those lvl 4/5 corp missions could be the contentious point
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.11.05 15:10:00 -
[74]
Quote:
The 500 or so missions required to get you to those lvl 4/5 corp missions could be the contentious point
Well, no. If you get your standings to 6.00 (easy peasy) for a corporation, you'd presumably get access to the lvl 4 agents that corporation has to offer :D
(In the new system, anyway)
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.11.05 15:14:00 -
[75]
I'll admit I haven't tested the new agent system yet
If it's really that easy to get a standing rating of 6.0 with the new system then that's not so bad. On TQ I've done over 130 missions for one corp and still only have a rating of 5 or so with them 
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McWatt
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Posted - 2003.11.05 15:24:00 -
[76]
Edited by: McWatt on 05/11/2003 16:47:20
finally we get some constructive posts, do we?
while i like Eldariel s ideas, they ve got a major flaw: all of the tasks can be performed in station!
i ll try to explain why i still think involving agents is a good idea, but would like to put two pints (EDIT: though i d realy like to put pints first, what i was talking about are points.)first:
1. i m not a fanboy (you might want to check some of my recent posts to have this confirmed)
2. i hate the agent missions. among a lot of crappy ideas, they are the most dull, stupid and useless thing in eve.
but i m still sure that they are the way to handle research, so please put your complains about missions into the relevant threat (the new system will be very similar to the old ones) and lets concentrate here on new BP.
yes, i know, in rl research is done by long hard work inside a cozy warm and safe laboratory.
but no, i don t think that this is the way it should be represented in eve. imagine your research char to be closer to indiana jones style field research than to your average university teacher/laboratoy rat.
yes, this means the days of your alt-research-char with two days of skill training investment are numbered.
yes, you ll have to give him at least basic command ship/navigation/combat skills and/or, even better, escort him on his first flight out into the dangerous world of eve.
no, he can t stay inside an indestructible station any longer, beyond the reach of all the nice guys who only want to play with him...
my proposal goes even further:
it would be a good thing, if he had to take the limited bp copy (the item) that is absolutely necessary for original bp (limited bp) research with him, while doing the agent missions necessary for agent research. these should be done during the process, not in advance!!!
even better, make the research results achieved so far destructible/pillageable by destruction of the research chars ship. (shock. finally those "research papers" carried in your cargohold would get some meaning )
yes, these mission should lead him to the confines of space, to places that no one has ever gone before (low sec space). protecting him would require real teamwork. (any kind of throwing together researchpoints by multiple alts is not teamwork but big bull****)
but well, Eight, i m sure that these were the ideas leading you to propose these changes, not just popular demand by player base?!?
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.11.05 15:31:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 15:32:08
Quote:
while i like Eldariel s ideas, they ve got a major flaw: all of the tasks can be performed in station!
I'm confused - I was suggesting you have to aquire pre-requisite items from all over the place before you can even start the research process (e.g. npc hunts/ agent missions in different systems to get items or skills/ mining/ trading with others)
None of that is "in station" ... 
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McWatt
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Posted - 2003.11.05 16:45:00 -
[78]
Edited by: McWatt on 05/11/2003 16:47:38
Quote:
I'm confused - I was suggesting you have to aquire pre-requisite items from all over the place before you can even start the research process (e.g. npc hunts/ agent missions in different systems to get items or skills/ mining/ trading with others)
None of that is "in station" ...
sorry, but sure it is. all this stuff can either be bought or brought to you by another char.
the only way they have to force you out to space are agent missions.
it s sad, but it s a fact.
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.11.05 16:55:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 16:58:48
Why would another player bring you a highly desirable and rare skill pack which you can only aquire through agent missions (for e.g.), or a rare npc drop that is a pre-requisite for research of a highly desirable item?
I can see why you would want to take *some* things out of station - but to have the whole process set up this way seems a bit extreme to me ...
BTW the changes to manufacturing sound great. Definitely a step in the right direction ...
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Steini OFSI
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Posted - 2003.11.05 17:03:00 -
[80]
Quote:
But how do you see a researcher research things in-game? Quite frankly, even a researcher character needs backup. You can let production factories run infinately, I can even understand ME research being automated, but inventing completely new tech should require more people then just one.
Perhaps in addition to the Agent system, a sort of research pool thing for Corporations should be created. This should never approach the effectiveness of Agent research itself, however, who have an entire Empire behind them. Also, if such a system is considered, it would be preferable if this results only in the kind of BP's that upgrade techI items to TechII (the odd breakthrough here and there notwithstanding)
Acceptable? Have you got ideas on this?
(The idea lab thread is a mess O.o)
What I suggested involves some work for researchers and a heavy skill training amount. The ammount of work would ofcourse need tweaking and I'll be damned if researching could be put afk. My suggestions are guidlines for more player action. Also I believe I've put very good limitations for rapid advancement in my idea. And accordingly tech lvl 2 guns would arrive more quickly than tech lvl 2 battleships (advanced guns might take more powergrid and mainly CPU so you couldn't fit all to a lvl 1 battleship). Ofcourse I'd like to see other ways, but a group of dedicated research players should be the most prominent way, and agents do not have the empire behind them, only their corporation. My concerns are for the sake of those who are willing to spend more skillpoints in research than battle and get nothing for it unless they're oblidged to do some missions. I might add that agents should also have the possibilty to hand out blueprints. As to begin with we might consider that an alternative for some time, as they'd might have to do some heavy scripting and that would take time. But I'll point again at page 2 and hope for feedbacks suggestion and a some kind of confirmation that the idea will rech the ear of someone who has something to say about it within CCP.
/me whispers we can always hope we can affect the game to satisfy more players and make it more enjoyable.
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Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.11.05 18:34:00 -
[81]
Quote:
Very interesting. Thinking now, posting later.
Your forum membership has been revoked.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
McWatt
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Posted - 2003.11.05 19:31:00 -
[82]
Edited by: McWatt on 05/11/2003 19:32:35
Quote:
Why would another player bring you a highly desirable and rare skill pack which you can only aquire through agent missions (for e.g.), or a rare npc drop that is a pre-requisite for research of a highly desirable item?
I can see why you would want to take *some* things out of station - but to have the whole process set up this way seems a bit extreme to me ...
your main and your corps member will bring you stuff.
i just simply feel that it s not a good idea to create a proffesion that will/can spend it s entire time inside an indestructibel station. i think this is weird!
the problem with the introduction of the new BPs is, (especially if it s done well, this means slowly!!!) lots of new monopolies. just think about MWD, AB, cargoexpansion,...
once a BP is inside a station with a research slot, next to nothing (in high sec space: nothing) can be done to prevent it from dublication/production.
this is a bad thing for the game: a few ppl will get the good BPs early. it s like winning the lottery. it will not involve any tactic at all but cause lot s of frustration to other players.
as much as the process as possible needs to be shifted out of station. this is were the only real interaction is happening.
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.11.05 20:20:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 20:24:59
Quote:
a few ppl will get the good BPs early. it s like winning the lottery. it will not involve any tactic at all but cause lot s of frustration to other players
You're assuming that the pre-requisite skills and items are freely available and easy to obtain... this wasn't the suggestion.
The suggestion was a complex network of items/ skills which govern which tech trees an individual can research. Individuals don't "chose" to research specific areas - they first have to obtain a) the appropriate research specialisation skill (e.g. advanced propulsion) and b) the required pre-requisite item(s).
Aquiring a) or b) in isolation might not be too hard, but finding an apppropriate match of both which work together would be hard ... and unpredictable.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2003.11.05 20:59:00 -
[84]
Edited by: McWatt on 05/11/2003 21:00:10
erm, i m not sure wether i got this.
getting a skill and the fitting item is what i do all day long?!?
btw, has anybody else noticed that with the miner 2 we ve already got the jewel piece of tech 2?
tech 2 is dead, long live tech 3!!!
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Copernicus
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Posted - 2003.11.05 21:46:00 -
[85]
I'm confused here. What is the difference between a RESEARCH AGENT and a REGULAR AGENT?
I'm a research character who has spent months training all the research skills to 4 and 5.
I don't want to have to start doing agent missions (at least normal ones) to get Tech II stuff.
Are these RESEARCH AGENTS special agents that you have to be a certain research level to get??????
Thanks,
Copernicus
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Dupree
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Posted - 2003.11.06 08:22:00 -
[86]
Something I cant quite agree with is how this game seems to be only for big corps. Must we not forget that most of the great inventions (tech advances) came from a mad scientist working in his basement. How about ccp throw the little guy a bone for once. Why cant small corp who spend time building reserch and industry skills aquire Rare bp's to sale to large mass producing corps? I dont think everyone bought this game to play a mining/combat sim.
The things we do in life echo in eternity. "Maximus Decimus Murideus" |
Geldami
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Posted - 2003.11.06 10:44:00 -
[87]
What happened to the original plan??
ooOOoo look a shiney module!!!
here science guy.. heres 5 modules.. get me a blueprint for this baby!!!!
science guy reverse engineers away.. destroys 2 or 3 (based on science/reverse engineer/item) and comes back with a coffee stained paper towel and says "heres your blueprint"
sales guy says "ok. we cornered the market in this item.. lets try to improve it!!"
science guy runs off a few xerox copies and files..starts to attempt tech level research on item - fails cause his science level to low and his luck was out that day ...
production guy pulls the copy. runs off a few modules.. gives to science guy to reverse engineer - science guy makes another bp and tries again..
oo look.. after 3 weeks hard work we have a tech 2 item!!!!!!! as a corp you can corner a market.. trade with other corps..
and its all player based!!!!!!!!
- THIS WAS THE ORIGINAL CONCEPT HINTED AT BY CCP OVER 8 MONTHS AGO - AND IN MY OPINION STILL THE BEST
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Ravenal
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Posted - 2003.11.06 12:29:00 -
[88]
uhm, havent read all the thread...sorry (so just ignore me if someone managed to post it already)
people mentioned that they didnt want to do "fed-ex" mission all day long to get theese bp's
correct me if im wrong but there are planned pc corp agents...thus the corp itself can research bp's as the npc corps.
another item; you dont really have to do agent missions to be able to research bps (sure, you gotta earn the lvl # agent who gives access to the npc corp research facility) - you just have to start the research and eventually...the higher science skills you have and more "points" accumulated the better bp you get.
you are essentially using a research facility the npc corp owns and doing research for them...and are rewarded with a bpc for your troubles
...new sig coming up
Ravenal - Fate is what you make of it. |
Estios
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Posted - 2003.11.06 14:56:00 -
[89]
Hmm , let me check my agent list ...
51 active agents is good right ? Guess this isnt such bad news for everyone
I do feel for you 'researchers' out there though. You DEFINATELY should have a bigger part to play in EVE (love some of the guys idea's about research teams and lab stations etc)
In the meantime come see me and I might be able to hook you up
'Your 2100mm SmurgleBlaster perfectly strikes Sansha's spooge monster wrecking for 5000000 damage'
So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
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Malena
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Posted - 2003.11.06 18:14:00 -
[90]
I cannot state how wholeheartedly I agree with Galdani (galdari?) the fellow who speaks of how reverse engineering and research should be implemented. I too remember the implication of that system so many months ago, and would love to see it in place. I think that alone would bring more new people into EVE. I love EVE dearly, but am distressed at the road this is taking. Some Polaris fellow earlier wrote that it should be the people with agents who are given the Tech 2 bps, else a small group of people will control the technology. Umm...hello? What did you see happening with the Miner 2 tech? Outrageous prices charged, all of it going to a ridiculously small group of people. What is the difference? Ask anyone not part of the group of people making huge amounts of cash, and they will tell you how much it sucked, but what choice did they have?
For everyone who doesn't do missions and isn't going to....consider the following ....if noone is buying those tech 2 items, then the price will naturally come down. So please, hold off buying any of it as long as you can, so that none are ripped off.
Malena
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