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Eight	Posted - 2003.11.03 15:39:00 - [1] Edited by: Eight on 03/11/2003 19:24:35 Some new info from PapaSmurf regarding blueprint distribution which is expected to come onto Tranquility in the next feature patch (Edit: now known as Castor), slightly edited for clarity. Basically, it works thus: Char says: Hiya, Agent! I'm interested in having some research done. Could you head up my research team? Agent says: Sure, Char! What type of research do you want done? Char says: "Weapons Upgrades" Agent says: Okey dokey. Character now starts building up points per second, based on skills, etc. Eventually, CCP says "Hey, let's distribute 100 SmurlgeBlaster IV blueprints". A lottery is performed, some sort of weighted random based on your research points in fields related to the blueprint in question. Agent offers Char blueprint. Char accepts/declines. Research agents will generally have a skill level equal to their agent level. The rate at which you accrue research points is dictated by the skill level of your and your agent, whichever is lowest, and slightly by agent quality. Also, blueprints will have minimum skill levels required to get them. For Example the Gallente SmurgleBlaster IV requires Gallente Weapon Tech level 4 and General Smurgle Fields 2. NOTE: All details are subject to change. --(Edit, B)-- Some more information on the blueprint distribution system. This is slated for Castor, the next major feature patch When you accept a blueprint your pool of research points is 'spent'. No ISK or other resources involved, though there may be mission requirements. Only skills are required for starting a particular research project, and of course access to the agent (standing). Only time is required for the project to progress, no ISK or other resources. Research points are accrued per player, per agent. Skills will dictate how many research projects a player can have going at once. The skills required to start projects will be general research skills. You or the Agent need a secondary more specific skill to get an offer for a particular BP as a result of the Lottery. Tasks to do: Functional implementation to be completed (Possibly tonight, Nov 3). The implementation must be reviewed by Game Design, which may require changes. Skill and level requirements for each blueprint will need to be determined and added to the database. Agents capable of research will need to be selected and/or added and their research skills and levels will need to be added to the database. This is hoped to be on Chaos (aka Castor) by Friday Nov 7th, but there are a lot of possibilities for required changes as LeKjart (Game Design) has not reviewed the current implementation. Also note that this will be using the revised standings and agent system which is fairly different than what is currently on Tranquility ( New System Info ). ~ Eight
Temujin Destovai	Posted - 2003.11.03 15:45:00 - [2] I really, really want a SmurgleBlaster The Chronicles of Xanadu
Redundancy	Posted - 2003.11.03 15:51:00 - [3] Important information. Sticky. I'm going to try and clear out some of the other stickies in a FAQ asap. Redundancy
CCP Hammerhead	Posted - 2003.11.03 15:52:00 - [4] Quote: I really, really want a SmurgleBlaster Maybe if you ask nice I'll spawn you one on chaos
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.11.03 16:01:00 - [5] Quote: I really, really want a SmurgleBlaster Comedy Gold [Heterocephalus glaber]
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.03 16:09:00 - [6] Edited by: j0sephine on 03/11/2003 16:11:54 I really, really want a SmurgleBlaster ... Nevermind the blaster, i want the General Smurgle Fields skill o.o; edit: on the more serious note, are those 'research points' accumulated per player, or does each agent have a separate amount of points?
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2003.11.03 16:11:00 - [7] /me wants an anti-SmurgleBlaster IV BP quickly !! MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
Helison	Posted - 2003.11.03 16:21:00 - [8] Will this still be in project Castor? Will it cost ISK, if you are offered a BP? Will it cost something to accrue research points? Can you start researching for many research fields?
Zeus	Posted - 2003.11.03 16:44:00 - [9] I see one flaw. Everyone’s going to create 100 sodding alts just sitting there trying to get a bp. I think it needs to be broadened or modified to encompass a Corps achievements or some other none skill point related modifier. It needs more than just a good agent and skills I think to make it fair.
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.03 17:10:00 - [10] "I see one flaw. EveryoneÆs going to create 100 sodding alts just sitting there trying to get a bp." ... Well, if the character needs to have certain skills at certain levels to obtain good blueprints, creating those alts would cut in the development of the main character so might not really be worth it. And big corporations still have the advantage, being they have more members able to gather those 'research points', so there's greater chance at least one of their members will be selected as receiver of the blueprint... doesn't seem like there's need to artifically tip the scale even further.
Thelorn	Posted - 2003.11.03 17:36:00 - [11] Well what i would like to know.... is when will that be put in place? Because a lot of people like myself have bought EVE because of the R&D part and well... nada We cant reverse engineer anything... and only 2 or 3 option in the research have a little value... Copy, Mineral Efficiency and Productivity Efficiency... and well for the PE there is no real value to search it. I want all the option to work at least... and yeah i want to be able to make research to get new items.
Raven DeBlade	Posted - 2003.11.03 17:45:00 - [12] Really interesting, we NEED something good in EVE a.s.a.p "To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees" "Any statements made above this line are my persona"
Bobby Wilson	Posted - 2003.11.03 18:37:00 - [13] SmurgleBlaster. The BFG of EVE? BW Originally by: Selim Cool, congrats. Oh, stupid idea by the way.
Eight	Posted - 2003.11.03 18:56:00 - [14] Added below Edit B. ~ Eight
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.03 19:17:00 - [15] Edited by: j0sephine on 03/11/2003 19:23:39 "Added below Edit B." Thank you, looking more and more interesting. :s the link to description of new agent system is: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=39329 Runefinger, "also researchers are totally unimportant at the moment most can just be done by an alt the only main path in eve is combat now.. there rest are just 2nd class jobs mostly.... just look at the skills needed for a good combat character thats like 75% off the skills and then look at the rest off the stuff..." there seems to be way more research-related skills and equipment coming with tech.2 Check the eve-db database for the Science skills and search it for "adv." "research" etc...
Runefinger	Posted - 2003.11.03 19:17:00 - [16] i think there should be more places then only agent missions that give out bp's... otherwise all people will massively do agent missions, giving no teamwork aspect at all.. also researchers are totally unimportant at the moment most can just be done by an alt the only main path in eve is combat now.. there rest are just 2nd class jobs mostly.... just look at the skills needed for a good combat character thats like 75% off the skills and then look at the rest off the stuff...
Invicitii xchiir	Posted - 2003.11.03 20:14:00 - [17] Edited by: Invicitii xchiir on 03/11/2003 20:17:08 hold up... does this mean that I have to do agent missions in order to get/do anything good in EVE? I didn't buy this game to do the same bloody Fed-Ex missions all day and night, day in day out... and if this is the case can someone explain to me what being an expert in Fed-Ex'ing/blowing-crap-up has to do with research??
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.03 20:53:00 - [18] Edited by: Eldariel on 03/11/2003 20:56:06 Got to say I'd be very dissapointed with this .... where is the actual research performed by the player??? There are a lot of people who have been patiently waiting for something tangible and interesting with respect to research. Something that makes research a distinct career path, and vindicates the waiting for it to appear. I doubt any of us would have envisaged an agent mission treadmill with a lottery at the end of it ... you might just as well have implemented manufacturing in exactly the same way (visit agent, request ship, pick it up 'x' days later).
Helison	Posted - 2003.11.03 21:07:00 - [19] Why do you need an agent to research anything? Why can¦t (large) corps research for their own? Why do labs exist? Just for mineral research and producing copies (oh, this will probably also be restricted)? Will reverse engineering be implemented at any time?
Ian Wagner	Posted - 2003.11.03 21:43:00 - [20] Edited by: Ian Wagner on 03/11/2003 22:13:42 Feh, so now, to have a chance of getting decent rewards from your agent, you need to be a research oriented character? Or spend a month or so training up those research skills, even if this is the only way you expect to utilize them? Here's a radical concept. Have agents get a slot in this lottery by using their agent skills, and researchers a chance at new BP's by using their researchskills. Thus each profession gets a chance to be rewarded for what they chose to do in EVE.
Dream Weaver	Posted - 2003.11.04 00:37:00 - [21] I agree with Ian on this one. I developed my character to be a trader and now you are telling us that we should have spent our time developing combat and research skills? The chance for a bp should be based on your social / trade skills, standing with your agent and faction. Not Science / Research and combat skills. Players focused on trade are at a great disadvantage now in the game and you want to make it worse. As it exists now the trade skill does nothing. Time spent training it was wasted. here is a chance for ccp to make up for it.
Wulfnor	Posted - 2003.11.04 01:25:00 - [22] Just so I am clear on a couple of things can you answer a few questions. How will we know what what the categories of research are and more particularly what kinds of things are possible in each category? Will we have any idea what the items the BPs produce will be like prior to decideing to spending our points? You mentioned that you and your agent would need a particular secondary skill for some BPs. Will a character need to have a certain skill level in that skill? Will there be some sort of specialization by npc corps into certain areas of research? If so, will they be easily discernable? Will the level of the agent have an affect on the level of the tech Level BPs that might be available? For instance, might a Tech 2 level BP be available from a level 1 research agent? Just soem things I was curious about.
Wulfnor	Posted - 2003.11.04 01:26:00 - [23] Edited by: Wulfnor on 04/11/2003 01:28:08 Sigh. I am sure only operator error caused the double post.
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.11.04 02:20:00 - [24] Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 04/11/2003 02:21:46 Quote: The chance for a bp should be based on your social / trade skills, standing with your agent and faction. Not Science / Research and combat skills. Yah, you know that's how it works. The beautiful friendly salespeople of the world are the ones who make breakthroughs into new areas of technology. Get real. Trading and social skills are just that, trading and social skills. Why would they have anything to do with the introduction of new technology into the game? This sounds like a great system to me. Using Research skills in conjunction with corporate might and "conncetions" to get a foot into the door of bleeding edge technology. Just like real life. Veruna Caseti Ishukone
Temerlyn	Posted - 2003.11.04 02:37:00 - [25] IS this the only way we will be able to get tech 2 bp's? or one of the many ways? i.e can we still research our tech 1 bp's to tech 2?
Bigfoot Hunter	Posted - 2003.11.04 05:20:00 - [26] i think this plan stinks my char started out as a scientist and was forced to become a fighter because the lack of things for a researcher to do . Currently there are only 2 things that arent a complete waste of time for researchers to do mineral efficency or copying cause production efficency is either broken or just the most moronic idea ever conceived by mankind and now to get higher tech stuff we need to do agent missons . Why? so we all have another time sink to get anything good in eve. If your gonna put new tech in like this could u at least give researchers something to do like reverse engineering, or make it so production efficency does more than take a few seconds off a build time throw us a freaking bone. Not everyone in eve wants to kill npc pirates/do agent missons/mine to make a living. -------------------------------------- Fortis cadere, cedere non potest
Krac	Posted - 2003.11.04 06:00:00 - [27] hmm i hope that the ability to reseach is not tied totaly to agents sigh 4 months of play ive done like 6 agent missions i havent even gotten past the n00b ones i had thought research was going to be its own beast not a lotto for agent *****s
JPFAmarr	Posted - 2003.11.04 06:54:00 - [28] Very interesting. Thinking now, posting later. Generic Corporation
Dorothy Wayneright	Posted - 2003.11.04 07:07:00 - [29] hmmm read before we speak? I understand that Polaris seems to talk legalese well but the past posts have made it clear that they are changing the agent system as well where Agents will be based upon your standing with that faction rather than the number of missions completed with that agent. So you probably won't have to do any missions to get a lvl 3 mission. Just depends on what you do 'do' and what corporation starts to like you better for it.
AlCapone	Posted - 2003.11.04 07:32:00 - [30] please tell me that we will not only get techlvl 2 BP`S due to Agent Missions! I am doing none of them also my corp m8es dont do Agent Missions. Since we are a small Manufacturer we need the new Techlvl avaiable on the Market to buy the prints. If you only give them out via Agents all small production corps would have nearly null chance to get them. Better would be if you place them randomly over the day an amount on the market, so everyone has a chance to get them and not only after dt.
Rixeh	Posted - 2003.11.04 07:51:00 - [31] Why is CCP pushing Agents so much? NEWS FLASH: AGENTS AND AGENT MISSIONS ARE NOT FUN. Running brainless cargo missions, or "deliver XX to YY within 30 minutes" IS BORING. Why are those of us that don't actually like Agents in the first place penalized and FORCED to do mindless repetative tasks just to get new stuff? Basically, why can't there be other ways of introducing new content? ----- Of war men will ask its outcome, not its cause. -- Seneca
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.11.04 08:50:00 - [32] Because Agents are can function as direct injectors of storyline-based content for the players. It doesn't make sense if the devs just put SmurgleBlaster BP's on the market but it DOES make sense if your high-ranking weapon dealer sells you one on the side, or your scientist with his researcher teams. This move will help people immerse themselves into the universe and the background story. Now all we need are more exiting Agent missions [Heterocephalus glaber]
Steini OFSI	Posted - 2003.11.04 09:10:00 - [33] In beta I had idea I didn't post (mainly because it needed tweaking and developing from my part before I felt content with it). Well it had teamwork role in place. If you'd wish to do research you'd set up a research team. A research team would consist of 2-20 members all lead by a science team commander which would require appropriate skill rank 8 based on mainly intel and secondary charisma (charisma needs some luv) and other skills science, research, social and research teamwork (a skill I'll explain later) all to lvl 5 (now he isn't much of a fighter and he shouldn't be). As you can see this char has to spend significant time in training non combat oriented skillz. The science team commander would decide how many could participate in his group based on his lvl. Anyone wishing to participate in a science team would require research teamwork (science and research lvl 5 social lvl 4) any lvl of the skill will give bonus to the total output of the team (each lvl would add a 1% output to the team with a staggering total of 100% when with a full team with all members at a lvl 5 in this skill). Try now to abuse alts, mwahahaha. Now each team can only work on a single blueprint at a time. Now trying to balance the fact why people should stay online instead of taking 3 months vacation and wait for it to be ready, a constant supply of various elements would be required every single day, to supply the lab and building prototypes and such. So one day they might want 900 units of miniature electronics the other superconducors, third 1000000 units trit to advance to the next lvl. of research. Now we have a strong fondation for science corps. Ofcourse we'd like other ways, but this should be the most effective. I need to brainstorm a while for next phase of my idea. PLZ I'd like some feedback on this because frankly this is the way it should have been and I'll accept a paycheck by mail CCP.
Steini OFSI	Posted - 2003.11.04 09:16:00 - [34] Oh and this would encourage people to choose their profession and also we'd need othe roles as to spy on research team (rival corp might send a spy who might be able to get data to advance his team to some stage of others research, though never more than 3 stages close to the others). Researches would have many stages and be much more complex from tech lvl 2-3 than tech lvl 1-2 and ofcourse by what it is developing, so to get something for research a battleship would take months while researching ammo would take days.
Steini OFSI	Posted - 2003.11.04 09:26:00 - [35] And the ideas keeps popping in my head, ofcourse this is not mine but it should be mentioned, higher lvl tech items would need special labs built in space for them (hence to slow down the research rush and maybe to involve more co operation). Now corp A is a research corp, corp B is a miners<->manufacture corp. To ensure research corp might want to trade their blueprints might be an agreement as this. Corp A needs a lab to continue their research, they start negotiating with corp B so they should build a station lab for them. Corp B accepts a deal that includes their rights to 600 product runs of corp A soon to be researched blueprint. The station however needs a protection, there comes corp C in. Corp C negotiate with corp A and B for 200 finished units of the soon to be the ³ber weapon, ship, whatever thing it might be, to cover up their expences for protecting the station. Damn I'm good.
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.04 10:21:00 - [36] Steini you might want to check out the monster thread on this sort of thing in the ideas forum - there are plenty of really great ideas in there .... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=24953
Kane Jacobs	Posted - 2003.11.04 10:35:00 - [37] Im gonna be very dissapointed if I dont find a Smurgleblaster ingame later.. How can you go wrong with a name like that !!! Just feel it roll of the tounge.. Smurgleblaster.... Wicked ! _______________________________________________
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2003.11.04 11:01:00 - [38] Quote: Im gonna be very dissapointed if I dont find a Smurgleblaster ingame later.. How can you go wrong with a name like that !!! Just feel it roll of the tounge.. Smurgleblaster.... Wicked ! I cant prevent getting some green blubber that i hurl up while saying this word, ends up on my tongue. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
1FSTCAT	Posted - 2003.11.04 11:38:00 - [39] I to would hate to have to do 100s of agent missions to get tech I would rather find unknown Jovian wreakage items floating in space maybe just have 1 spawn container with it but have it change to a random location each server reboot research it to identify it then you have a new tech item new item then reverse engineer it to make the blue print Courier missions would be another way to intoduce jovian atrifacts but you wouldn't know till you picked up the parcel and peeked Hostile Jovian renegade battle ship attacking miners in a disputed border
Steini OFSI	Posted - 2003.11.04 11:47:00 - [40] Quote: Steini you might want to check out the monster thread on this sort of thing in the ideas forum - there are plenty of really great ideas in there .... Yes, but I have the feeling dev's don't read to much of the posting there, and frankly I'm scared of so much reading. Furthermore in the idea lab there are so high non useful non well thought of posts vs. the good ones and makes you wonder if you'd have the time to filter everyone out. And ideas just happen to be repeated over and over again (well it's not players fault, we need a search). Anyway I have made my vision clear and it includes the things EVE was promised to be, to some extend.
Steini OFSI	Posted - 2003.11.04 12:00:00 - [41] And included a higher role for charisma, maybe it would be time to consider the fact no one really bothers to train ethnic relations up to lvl 5 or buy a charisma implant at a decent price.
Methesda	Posted - 2003.11.04 12:11:00 - [42] Umm. So BP's will ONLY be distributed by agents? If market BP's were a lot rarer, but you could also get them from your agent then this could be good. But i don't like the idea that BP's would only be available from agents. Giving greater rewards at the end of a series of agent missions, does NOT make agents any more fun... QED implants... i just bought the one i have. Did a few missions, got bored and bought it. Anyone else do the same?
Darkwolf	Posted - 2003.11.04 12:30:00 - [43] Quote: Anyone else do the same? Nah, I'm just putting myself through a blender headfirst to get them the hard way. Devs, take heed! 1. Agent missions are DEAD boring. "Take X to B in N time, to get J isk" missions are brain-dead, and no matter what way you chop it, it's still "Jump through these hoops in the right order, and get your tasty cookie". 2. Giving random rewards does not positively reinforce continued use of the Agents system. It's akin to trying to train a dog by randomly beating it with a stick, giving it some cabbage, or a whole steak, and then a swift kick the next time it jumps through your hoops. 3. Jumping through the same set of hoops 400 times to get your reward does not equal fun. It is the virtual equivalent of Chinese Water Torture. Oh, and we're now going to get the chance of random rewards at the end of it :) 4. Shifting the goals around after people have been working themselves insane also doesn't equal fun. Imagine you're in a marathon, and you see the end up ahead, but some bugger keeps moving the finish line :) 5. Staging randomized "black box" auctions for equipment does not equal fun. You work your butt off for weeks, only to get the small possibility of getting a reward. Oh, and if you take that reward, you won't qualify for other rewards (your pool of points is lower). Not good. Frankly, I know I'm not being very helpful, but I'm a little short tempered after spending most of my EVE playing time grinding on the agent missions, and now I find out that a) I'm going to lose all my CONCORD, DED, and Jovian agents, and b) The BP I've been working towards is going to suddenly evaporate and I'm going to have a "chance" at getting something else. If I ever manage to catch that damn moving finish line. Don't take this the wrong way, hell, take it the wrong way if you want, but I hope that the release of Castor gets horribly delayed long enough for me to hit the finish line, so I can THEN be ready for the next round of getting-all-my-goals-nuked.
McWatt	Posted - 2003.11.04 13:26:00 - [44] Edited by: McWatt on 04/11/2003 16:49:36 Quote: Some new info from PapaSmurf regarding blueprint distribution which is expected to come onto Tranquility in the next feature patch (Edit: now known as Castor), slightly edited for clarity. Basically, it works thus: Char says: Hiya, Agent! I'm interested in having some research done. Could you head up my research team? Agent says: Sure, Char! What type of research do you want done? Char says: "Weapons Upgrades" Agent says: Okey dokey. Character now starts building up points per second, based on skills, etc. Eventually, CCP says "Hey, let's distribute 100 SmurlgeBlaster IV blueprints". A lottery is performed, some sort of weighted random based on your research points in fields related to the blueprint in question. Agent offers Char blueprint. Char accepts/declines. Research agents will generally have a skill level equal to their agent level. The rate at which you accrue research points is dictated by the skill level of your and your agent, whichever is lowest, and slightly by agent quality. Also, blueprints will have minimum skill levels required to get them. For Example the Gallente SmurgleBlaster IV requires Gallente Weapon Tech level 4 and General Smurgle Fields 2. NOTE: All details are subject to change. --(Edit, B)-- Some more information on the blueprint distribution system. This is slated for Castor, the next major feature patch When you accept a blueprint your pool of research points is 'spent'. No ISK or other resources involved, though there may be mission requirements. Only skills are required for starting a particular research project, and of course access to the agent (standing). Only time is required for the project to progress, no ISK or other resources. Research points are accrued per player, per agent. Skills will dictate how many research projects a player can have going at once. The skills required to start projects will be general research skills. You or the Agent need a secondary more specific skill to get an offer for a particular BP as a result of the Lottery. Tasks to do: Functional implementation to be completed (Possibly tonight, Nov 3). The implementation must be reviewed by Game Design, which may require changes. Skill and level requirements for each blueprint will need to be determined and added to the database. Agents capable of research will need to be selected and/or added and their research skills and levels will need to be added to the database. This is hoped to be on Chaos (aka Castor) by Friday Nov 7th, but there are a lot of possibilities for required changes as LeKjart (Game Design) has not reviewed the current implementation. Also note that this will be using the revised standings and agent system which is fairly different than what is currently on Tranquility ( New System Info ). 1. good communication. 2. no, actually i m ashamed to be the first to say this here, this is very good communication. 3. i like the general idea. but the people who have voiced some concern are right, too. * agent missions are boring, and the "new" ones are all the same. this is bull***. we need lots of research skills, actually one for each general type of equipment. basing a proffesion on one skill is, bull***. (i m repeating myself..) making the process interactive is something, that this whole game is missing. i should have to talk to my agent now and then, and he would ask something of me (money, items, missions) to keep the process (fast) going. edit: no, the slow decay of standing that the new agent system is based on is not what i m talking about here. (i thought i ll put this clear before you start pointing to the link) agents should ask you for real favours now and then, like some gaussian rails or to borrow 5 mio, you ll get it back in a week, i promise... * having only one way to introduce stuff is bull***. wrecks, original research (some random chance while improving another bp?) and high end NPC pirates should be used to hand out bp s, too. (and yes, you need to script treasure hunt style plots into the game, everything else sucks, and you need to do this for the new agent missions and for (very rare) random encounters.) and, most important, get the time line right. there should be few new items first, then limited bp s, then real ones. at the same time pirate loot has to adopt, their rare items should remain competitive. this is going to be hard work. no holidays till chrismas, i d say.
Darkwolf	Posted - 2003.11.04 13:42:00 - [45] Point well made, and I'll add my bit to it as well. Thanks for the info, Eight. It's appreciated, much better us find out now than get ambushed some time down the track :P
GrendelPrime	Posted - 2003.11.04 13:49:00 - [46] First off, I'd have to say that I am dissappointed by this. If I read this correctly, you have to do agent missions to get the tech2 BP's ??. Not that i really want to *****, as I really like EVE... but this just makes me say WTF??. This cannot be the only way to handout Tech2 BP's. If it is , there are going to be alot of people like myself (who have never done any missions, have no desire to do missions... focused mainly on our chosen profession) who seem to be getting the shaft here. I would have very little issue with this , if it were not the only means of distubution. I've read al the other posts so far, and there are some really good ideas here, I especially like the random loot container idea. To me this could play in story more than agents.. expample: Abandoned Station (known pirate hangouts, also known to be "occupied" by pirates) has "named" loot can that has a random chance to drop a Tech2 BP. I mean hey pirates have to do research to, right... In the end, I will still play Eve, but if this (agents) are thhe only way tech2 BP's are handed out, then I guess my Research and manufacture character, will just have to become a combat character. As he will be so far behind the power curve from not doing any missions, that his chances of getting a BP are slim to none. :( "Though you may die, do not give up your honor" -- Miyamoto Musashi
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.11.04 13:53:00 - [47] Quote: I see one flaw. EveryoneÆs going to create 100 sodding alts just sitting there trying to get a bp. I think it needs to be broadened or modified to encompass a Corps achievements or some other none skill point related modifier. It needs more than just a good agent and skills I think to make it fair. More than that. I was hoping research and advanced tech would create a reason for characters to specialise more (besides the current "i'm bringing my alt on to refine..." bleah). Now more than ever, every character will have everything. Given the weighted lottery there's no reason at all for corps NOT to ask all members to get research, get agents, start projects immediately. No matter HOW piddly their skill or agent is, 100 chances at the lottery is better than none at all. And i don't get the mission bit at all. I would suggest that it be to get some Exotic Scientific Thing from Somewhere Interesting, not some "please go 40 jumps and pick up one unit of Frobozz and bring it here and i'll give you the BP." Also if any combat is involved at all, it be the drop that completes the mission, no matter who gets it. So mr. scientist can hire ms. mercenary to help him with the rough stuff, or head up a corp expedition... Off the cuff, while i can picture that you're getting at - scientists hiring station facilities and lab managers - what's actually going to happen is Joe Miner and Fred Fighter of Supercorp are gonna plonk 1-3 points into research and EVERYONE'S gonna have research going. You'd be a freak NOT to, if there's a chance (however small) that Ya Hoo with Research 1 and one agent of the right type might conceivably get the BP for a Miner III. Please think about this. You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.11.04 13:56:00 - [48] Quote: Edited by: Wulfnor on 04/11/2003 01:28:08 Sigh. I am sure only operator error caused the double post. sorry to reply to this silliness but it's early and it made me grin. Happy PEBKAC to you too You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.11.04 14:03:00 - [49] Bademily, go to EvE-DB and select Skills -> Science Marvel at the wonder of Advanced Science skills. :D [Heterocephalus glaber]
Adliger Krieger	Posted - 2003.11.04 14:20:00 - [50] Screw Agents. Corps should be able to Research without them. I wouldnt hate them so much if every thing about them was not so damn boring. Doing Agent missions is like the single player version of EVE. I'm tired of all the good stuff (like implants) being given EXCLUSIVELY through this crappy Agent system. Agents are great for peeps who are afraid to fly into 0.0 and kill 50k pirates. BUT, for those of us that do have the balls, we should be rewarded with good pirate drops like implants and Tech II BP's. This is very frustrating.
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.04 14:27:00 - [51] The instant gratification is amazing. Most of the things that are nice are NOT given away. Because you might not get a chance at it does not mean its unfair! Some things that you want might be made availible later on. Life sucks work it to your advantage. You all remind me of the donkey and the carrot. Ohh I want that change your path and follow it, then something else comes up and you want it you change your path again. Pick one thing and do it. If you want the latest and greatest you will fail in Eve and RL. Make up your blessed minds. Stop crying.... -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Chai N'Dorr	Posted - 2003.11.04 14:32:00 - [52] Edited by: Chai N'Dorr on 04/11/2003 14:34:08 Why the complaint about finding Agent missions boring? Why the complaints about CCP 'forcing' you to do them? I do Agent Missions, some times a whole day, sometimes none a day... But I don't find these more boring than Staring at a mining laser all day Chaining NPC's Camping Gates/Jump-in points Doing Trade runs in an indy Being a Trader in the most hated chat in Eve I don't complain about the fact that I need to pay a rediculous amount of money for a SmurgleBlaster IV that someone got while chaining rats for hours. Neither do I complain about getting minerals at excessive costs from miners. Nor would I complain if I 'had' to buy a SmurgleBlaster IV BP from someone who invested a lot of time in Agent Missions (not matter how dull). To each his path in the game... [ed. still trying to get this list option to work]
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.04 14:44:00 - [53] Edited by: j0sephine on 04/11/2003 14:47:24 "Agents are great for peeps who are afraid to fly into 0.0 and kill 50k pirates. BUT, for those of us that do have the balls, we should be rewarded with good pirate drops like implants and Tech II BP's. This is very frustrating." ... "Balls to fly into 0.0 and kill 50k pirates"? Don't make me laugh. Btw, doing few millions per hour --in cash and rare drops-- of mechanical shooting at brainless NPC drones sounds like a good income on its own. Really don't see a reason why it should be even more rewarding...
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.04 15:58:00 - [54] Quote: Edited by: j0sephine on 04/11/2003 14:47:24 "Agents are great for peeps who are afraid to fly into 0.0 and kill 50k pirates. BUT, for those of us that do have the balls, we should be rewarded with good pirate drops like implants and Tech II BP's. This is very frustrating." ... "Balls to fly into 0.0 and kill 50k pirates"? Don't make me laugh. Btw, doing few millions per hour --in cash and rare drops-- of mechanical shooting at brainless NPC drones sounds like a good income on its own. Really don't see a reason why it should be even more rewarding... Here here!
Ian Wagner	Posted - 2003.11.04 16:08:00 - [55] Edited by: Ian Wagner on 04/11/2003 16:09:07 We need a way for this to be rewarding for both ppl doing agent missions and researchers. How about changing it ot a prototype BP being given to the agent, who could then either sell it (if they have no interest in research or their corp has no interest in research), or deliver it to their corp's research team so they can have fun researching the bejeezus out of it? So, instead of.. Quote: Char says: Hiya, Agent! I'm interested in having some research done. Could you head up my research team? Agent says: Sure, Char! What type of research do you want done? Char says: "Weapons Upgrades" Agent says: Okey dokey. Character now starts building up points per second, based on skills, etc. Eventually, CCP says "Hey, let's distribute 100 SmurlgeBlaster IV blueprints". A lottery is performed, some sort of weighted random based on your research points in fields related to the blueprint in question. Agent offers Char blueprint. Char accepts/declines. You have.. Quote: Char says: Hiya, Agent! I'm interested in having some research done. Could you head up my research team? Agent says: Sure, Char! What type of research do you want done? Char says: "Weapons Upgrades" Agent says: Okey dokey. Character receives a prototype BP, to either research or sell. Eventually, CCP says "Hey, let's distribute 100 SmurlgeBlaster IV blueprints". A lottery is performed, some sort of weighted random based on the amount of research done on the prototype blueprints in question. CCP changes 100 prototype smurgleblaster BP's to smurgleblaster IV BP's. Researchers who got lucky rejoice, throw a big party, and score with someone from the secretarial staff. CCP would have to track the prototype BP's, but their DB should easily be capable of that.
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.11.04 16:23:00 - [56] Still, the way I see it is that the researchers ARE the ones benefitting most from this. They'll have the prereqs to train the TechII research skills, which are needed for faster accumulation of Research Points (silly term) and vastly improves your chances of getting a good BP. I know what I'll be training. [Heterocephalus glaber]
McWatt	Posted - 2003.11.04 16:37:00 - [57] oh, i forgot the most important point: do not, under no circumstances ever, introduce new monopolies without some way to do something against it. serious, this will kill the game!!! so either: 1. no research/production of lvl II items in 0.5 sec and higher system (with some important items, you might want to check what items player tend to use/own a lot, only produceable in 0.0 space). --> easy solution or, better: 2. arranged fights for office/ lab/ factory slots. some one will mark a slot as contested. a time for the fight is arranged somehow. winner is who keeps an area free of other ships for a certain amount of time. certain chance for bp to be pillaged by takeover. (you might want to include some noob protection/ payment necessary to limit abuse) without a possibility to fight over new technology, the whole thing is futile!!! don t mess it up! did i mention that lab slots are ridicoulus cheap?
Belzavior	Posted - 2003.11.04 17:05:00 - [58] I have to agree with the majority of the people here. Why does researching have to be tied to NPC corporations what so ever? A researcher whom has spent the majority of his eve existance building up his science skills(which atm don't do anything to warrant their training) be hit yet again with the fact that now they have to spend days getting a good agent just to get a chance to do what their character was meant to do. I would much rather see characters have the chance to make research teams much as a different player had posted. Also the member of these teams would need significant science skills to contribute otherwise would be more of a hinderance to the team, thus you wouldn't want someone with only a mil skillpoints in science skills on your team but rather someone with 3 or 4 mil in science skills. Also research should be based off of Blue Prints already in possesion! Thus you couldn't say research a Miner 4 without at least a Miner 3, why? Cuz it don't make fricken sense. A corporation say Techell whom is dedicated to researching and producing mining technologies should have an advantage over bill nye the science guy doing an agent mission. I'm not saying I'm anti agent missions, I'm not I think agents should be usefull for getting some UBER equipment like implants and maybe other UBER equipment however BPS is just silly. A research and development firm SHOULD be popping out higher tech equipment thats why they are a R&D firm, not some james bond wannabe whom deliverd 1000 units of trit to a station "just in time" What attracted me to EVE was it's corporate model where players would make corporations whom offered several services be it mercenary, manufacturing, piracy, logistics, R&D, etc... More and more it seems like this is just alot propaganda thats been shoved in our faces and eve is just like every other single MMPORG out there. There is no corporate competition, prices are set on goods one can make by only mineral cost of the good, not by quality. I'm sorry I liked the idea where success was in the players hand not some lucky drop or lottery, I could go back to EQ for that. And now that that tech lvl 2 is going to be introduced players now have to work with Non Player Corporations in order to get a blue print, rather than working with their own corporation for getting that blue print. Sorry for the rant, this news greatly soured my view of where this game was heading.
Dorothy Wayneright	Posted - 2003.11.04 17:14:00 - [59] I wish people would stop trying to convince the devs to make this game totally oriented around combat and 0.0 space. I.E. the whole concept of limiting research of tech lvl II to 0.0 space. Get real; there is absolutely no storyline way to explain such a rule and it's just plain stupid. As for this mindless bantor about how Agent missions suck... what part of 'change the agent system' don't you understand? I mean frell, they even gave you a link to what they said before about the specific changes to the system. Yet what do you do? immediately open mouth and insert foot, repeatedly... Here is a hint, try reading more than typing.
Temujin Destovai	Posted - 2003.11.04 19:50:00 - [60] I really hope that agent missions arent the only way to obtain, and research tech 2 blueprints / items. Although a fitting way to introduce certain things, and aspects, I dont think EVERYTHING should run over them. Im still hoping for being able to research tech I blueprints into tech II with the correct methods, and other things like reverse engeniering etc... Make researching something that is actually interesting. The Chronicles of Xanadu
Missa	Posted - 2003.11.04 20:55:00 - [61] Hello, I am a scientist here in Eve and I must say that I am dissapointed once again...Why must I...a scientist...have to find a NPC scientist through agent missions to "research" (if you can call it that) a higher tech of BP. --Missa New Siggy to Come Soon(tm)
ShadowHawk	Posted - 2003.11.04 21:15:00 - [62] I fully agree with the posting of those who say that research should not involve NPCs. Research is currently an absolute joke and that shows in many areas including the market which is currently purely price driven. If you offer an item cheaper than someone else, you're going to make the sale... location is hardly ever a bonus over price. There is no way that someone can produce a 'better' item than the competition, and that is because of the complete lack of anything resembling research even remotely. If I go back to pre release marketing hypes, there was a lot of talk how you could choose to be a fighter (check), a miner (check), a trader (sorta check), or a researcher (... say what???). CCP has so far completely failed to deliver on the research aspect of EVE. I liked the post of Steini (or what ever his name was, can't remember). It should be a colaborate effort of different team members to propell a research into a successful product. The idea of requiring materials related to what you're trying to build gets around the idle research proposed by papa smurf where all you need is enough time, multiple people in the same corp participating and some sheer luck. I hope any of the Polaris/CCP are actually reading this thread and note the common tone that research so far is a joke and that the proposed system doesn't do much to remedy that situation. Make research a team effort where people have to work together instead of brainless agent based activities. This way you create a new facet of the game that you promised in lots of colors during the hype phase but have completely failed to deliver so far. Read Steini's post once more and think about it a bit more... I'm sure you can come up with a way to introduce REAL research instead of the lottery system you proposed. Your 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I perfectly strikes Sansha's Scavenger, wrecking for 264.3 damage.
Ayar Cachi	Posted - 2003.11.04 21:44:00 - [63] Really great to get some detailed info about improvements that are coming. Agents slipping their favourite brown-nosers a confidential bp, like some inside info or trade-secret leak, is totally sensible and appropriate. However, it is also totally sensible and appropriate to provide Player scientists to 'create' bps through a lab-oriented process that requires similar levels of dedication, chance, or whatever is fair. I hope the devs working on this aren't disheartened by some of the 'single side' comments here--what you've got sounds great and an improvement I look forward to. But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be other ways of creating/getting tech breakthroughs. Multiple-valid-paths is sort of a modern RPG idea, hmm?
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.11.04 23:28:00 - [64] Actually, this is a rather good thing for researchers You can't reearch something alone, not whilst you're out ganking people (i love that word) or mining or anything else. It shoudl require effort. Why not divert that effort to a team of researchers (npcs) and get them (through missions) the items/supplies/goods that they need to get breakthroughs If you think about it and if the missions are scripted well enough (I volunteer to help) it will help Immersion immensely. You'll be the lead scientist to a team you command, and in turn you render them services, pay them if you wll. They pool their resources under your capable hands and with your superior knowledge and incredible brainpower, you'll get them to produce you the SmurgleBlaster IV in no time! The more i think about it the better it sounds.. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Rocket Bob	Posted - 2003.11.04 23:55:00 - [65] Edited by: Rocket Bob on 05/11/2003 00:00:23 EVE is a massively multiplayer online game. Why play a multiplayer game only to spend your whole time online interfacing with NPCs? It's a collosal waste of resources and potential to turn a multiplayer game into a huge array of players interacting with content instead of players playing with other players. Every MMO has NPCs to fill in the gaps that can't be fairly or practically filled in by human players, but the ideal goal for any serious MMO design and for any serious MMO player is to totally remove them from the gameplay. EVE seemed, at first, to be a game that was developed to cater to those players who didn't want to waste thier online time **ing around with AI scripts. The PVP everywhere aspect, emphasis on corporations and the obstacles to solo-ing which are huge relative to other MMOs seemed to be designed to encourage multiplayer interaction, teamwork and the forming of communities. However, for some unknown reason, agents and NPC missions are continually empasised as an important aspect of gameplay. Those of us who play multiplayer games to play with other actual players beat our heads against the wall at the very thought of doing agent missions. Those who do swallow their pride and commit to endless hours of boredom doing these missions, forsake player interaction for the promise of some future reward which often are most valuable only in the broader multiplayer context. The message here is that to excel in this multiplayer game you must first go stay in a corner of the game world by yourself working a virtual treadmill. HOW UTTERLY RIDICULOUS. Here's a novel idea for the developers who are so bent on the torturous idea of doing virtual work for an evenly distributed reward: make agent missions require multiple players! Have groups of players complete logistics missions that are much too large to be completed by a single character. Have NPC targets much too hardened for only one player to capture or destroy alone. Have one faction's agents sometimes require players to sabotage another faction's missions and return home with some token of proof--or even more open-ended and interesting: have agents assign missions to cause players who work for enemy factions to lose standing with their agents. This way players must work together or against eachother to meet shared goals. Suddenly the boring, stagnant system of player-NPC interaction is turned into a great engine for both multiplayer interaction and storyline involvement. From the developer's standpoint, single-player agent missions as currently implemented, must represent a terrible return on investment. Players are forced to reuse the same content over and over to complete a finite number of mission types, they will always turn to something else for progression and fun, if given the opportunity. That might just include leaving for a different game! Game items with general interactive features always have a greater return on investment in devloper hours than any kind of scripted content. If you simply give players some tools they will do interesting creative things that are more valuable to them than any kind of scripted quest completion.**. Look what happened with cargo containers. Containers are one of the very few items in EVE with general player interactivity. They exist in the world independent of the player's self and they are accessable by just about everyone. Would CCP have ever guessed that some or a group like XFI would create advertisements at high-traffic jjump points by meticulously arranging cargo containers? Did they forsee containers being huge advantages in player battles? Did they have any idea that the demand for secure, anchorable containers would be extrordinarily high? So much so that many players make good money simply by doing the footwork to bring containers to markets where they are not already for sale. Don't make NPC agents the interface point for players to become better "crafters"--not without first making thier missions multiplayer-oriented. Yes, make the manufacturing chain longer. Add skill bonuses and randomness to the outcome of each stage. Add variablity to the quality and utility of each "final" product. Allow crafters to leave their mark on the items they make. Put the tools and elements and incentives in the game for the players to work out their own complex social structures and to make their own lasting marks on the game world. Good luck. Rocket Bob out.
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.05 09:49:00 - [66] Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 09:55:43 Quote: Actually, this is a rather good thing for researchers You can't reearch something alone, not whilst you're out ganking people (i love that word) or mining or anything else. It shoudl require effort. But that's exactly what this is Discorporation. The only "effort" required is finding a research agent - after you've done that you're free to go off and do whatever you like in EVE. Research points are ticking up without you having to do anything ... (I don't count aquiring and training new skills in this process since thats central to EVE play dynamics anyway) I'm not against agent missions per-se, but research should require you to do something material in game (in much the same way as manufacturing requires you to bring multiple elements together to achieve a goal). Agent missions should provide some of the key ingredients (e.g. specialist skills only available via agents, tools to enhance the process), but shouldn't be the be all and end all of the process. From the previous "how to introduce higher level technology" thread in the ideas forum the general consensus seemed to be : 1. Player driven research (using labs/ materials/ tools/ trade goods/ skills etc) and reverse engineering 2. Agent Missions 3. Random NPC pirate loot drops Option #1 should be the primary route to aquiring tech advancement, with an increased chance of success relative to options #2 or #3. However, options #2 and #3 should also provide specialist items/ skills to improve diversity in #1 (i.e. make it difficult for any one corp/ individual to monopolise tech advancement) Now that would be interesting and interactive content which requires "real" effort on the part of the player(s) ...
Steini OFSI	Posted - 2003.11.05 11:28:00 - [67] Edited by: Steini OFSI on 05/11/2003 11:30:01 Edit: double post.
Steini OFSI	Posted - 2003.11.05 11:29:00 - [68] Quote: I liked the post of Steini (or what ever his name was, can't remember). It should be a colaborate effort of different team members to propell a research into a successful product. The idea of requiring materials related to what you're trying to build gets around the idle research proposed by papa smurf where all you need is enough time, multiple people in the same corp participating and some sheer luck. I hope any of the Polaris/CCP are actually reading this thread and note the common tone that research so far is a joke and that the proposed system doesn't do much to remedy that situation. Make research a team effort where people have to work together instead of brainless agent based activities. This way you create a new facet of the game that you promised in lots of colors during the hype phase but have completely failed to deliver so far. Read Steini's post once more and think about it a bit more... I'm sure you can come up with a way to introduce REAL research instead of the lottery system you proposed. thanks .
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.11.05 12:04:00 - [69] Quote: Now that would be interesting and interactive content which requires "real" effort on the part of the player(s) ... But how do you see a researcher research things in-game? Quite frankly, even a researcher character needs backup. You can let production factories run infinately, I can even understand ME research being automated, but inventing completely new tech should require more people then just one. Perhaps in addition to the Agent system, a sort of research pool thing for Corporations should be created. This should never approach the effectiveness of Agent research itself, however, who have an entire Empire behind them. Also, if such a system is considered, it would be preferable if this results only in the kind of BP's that upgrade techI items to TechII (the odd breakthrough here and there notwithstanding) Acceptable? Have you got ideas on this? (The idea lab thread is a mess O.o) [Heterocephalus glaber]
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.05 14:37:00 - [70] Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 14:55:57 Quote: but inventing completely new tech should require more people then just one Actually I wouldn't agree with that. Inventing new tech should be achievable by the individual - it should just take a hell of a lot longer than it would if you operate as part of a team ... The downside to this is large megacorps will be favoured because they have such a large playerbase. To combat this (and avoid monopolisation on tech advancement) you need to introduce complexity in the process to make blanket research nigh on impossible. Whether thats in the form of special skills/ goods consumed during research/ skills that are only available through agents or npc drops is another question... Research itself could be something along the lines of : 1. aquire items x, y, z (not necessarily all available from market but could also be agents and/ or npc drops) 2. train skills required for specific tech specialisation area (again - specialised skills could be agent rewards) 3. mix it all up in the lab (similar to manufacturing now) to attempt research advancement There are lots of possible ways of doing it. The difference is the above forces you to explore lots of other areas of the game (trade/ skills/ agents/ npc hunting), but with a sense of purpose behind it, and a heavy dose of player interaction. Running agent missions via the proposed approach is effectively a solo activity with no sense of achievement Having a dependency on BPs is also very bad imho because it excludes the majority from research of high value BPs (i.e. only megacorps with loads of ISK will be able to purchase the BP original to researcdh against). That's why I suggested taking the research side of it a bit further by uncoupling research from the BPs (research produces scripts which can "upgrade" existing BP originals). The real advantage with this is you don't need to own an original BPs to do the research - but in order to achieve the manufacturing benefit you do. Hence researchers could either sell these advancement scripts on the open market, or make the decision to enter manufacturing themselves (in which case they are going to have to make that expensive outlay for the original BP). Probably too radical a change in the approach to be implemented anytime soon though (if at all) It's worth remembering, however, that all of the above isn't at the expense of rare npc BP drops, or BP rewards from agents - just that it should be the preferred route with the highest probability of success ...
Helison	Posted - 2003.11.05 14:39:00 - [71] What will be the consequences of this new BP-distribution system: Very many players will make missions at the same time to get a chance for a BP. You have to make the missions in empire space. -> Less player will travel to 0.0 to mine Bistot. -> The Megacyte and Zydrine price will rise extremly!
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.11.05 14:54:00 - [72] Quote: Good Stuff Seems they listened to the upgrade script thing, in a sense that some BP's will be able used to upgrade tech I items (Eg, resources include a number of TechI items). Also, I don't see why Agent missiosn have to be a solo activity. Devs have already stated that lvl4 and 5 agents will offer Corp missions. Good stuff there, I hope the devs are paying attention ;) [Heterocephalus glaber]
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.05 15:06:00 - [73] Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 15:14:49 Quote: Also, I don't see why Agent missiosn have to be a solo activity. Devs have already stated that lvl4 and 5 agents will offer Corp missions The 500 or so missions required to get you to those lvl 4/5 corp missions could be the contentious point
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.11.05 15:10:00 - [74] Quote: The 500 or so missions required to get you to those lvl 4/5 corp missions could be the contentious point Well, no. If you get your standings to 6.00 (easy peasy) for a corporation, you'd presumably get access to the lvl 4 agents that corporation has to offer :D (In the new system, anyway) [Heterocephalus glaber]
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.05 15:14:00 - [75] I'll admit I haven't tested the new agent system yet If it's really that easy to get a standing rating of 6.0 with the new system then that's not so bad. On TQ I've done over 130 missions for one corp and still only have a rating of 5 or so with them
McWatt	Posted - 2003.11.05 15:24:00 - [76] Edited by: McWatt on 05/11/2003 16:47:20 finally we get some constructive posts, do we? while i like Eldariel s ideas, they ve got a major flaw: all of the tasks can be performed in station! i ll try to explain why i still think involving agents is a good idea, but would like to put two pints (EDIT: though i d realy like to put pints first, what i was talking about are points.)first: 1. i m not a fanboy (you might want to check some of my recent posts to have this confirmed) 2. i hate the agent missions. among a lot of crappy ideas, they are the most dull, stupid and useless thing in eve. but i m still sure that they are the way to handle research, so please put your complains about missions into the relevant threat (the new system will be very similar to the old ones) and lets concentrate here on new BP. yes, i know, in rl research is done by long hard work inside a cozy warm and safe laboratory. but no, i don t think that this is the way it should be represented in eve. imagine your research char to be closer to indiana jones style field research than to your average university teacher/laboratoy rat. yes, this means the days of your alt-research-char with two days of skill training investment are numbered. yes, you ll have to give him at least basic command ship/navigation/combat skills and/or, even better, escort him on his first flight out into the dangerous world of eve. no, he can t stay inside an indestructible station any longer, beyond the reach of all the nice guys who only want to play with him... my proposal goes even further: it would be a good thing, if he had to take the limited bp copy (the item) that is absolutely necessary for original bp (limited bp) research with him, while doing the agent missions necessary for agent research. these should be done during the process, not in advance!!! even better, make the research results achieved so far destructible/pillageable by destruction of the research chars ship. (shock. finally those "research papers" carried in your cargohold would get some meaning) yes, these mission should lead him to the confines of space, to places that no one has ever gone before (low sec space). protecting him would require real teamwork. (any kind of throwing together researchpoints by multiple alts is not teamwork but big bull****) but well, Eight, i m sure that these were the ideas leading you to propose these changes, not just popular demand by player base?!?
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.05 15:31:00 - [77] Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 15:32:08 Quote: while i like Eldariel s ideas, they ve got a major flaw: all of the tasks can be performed in station! I'm confused - I was suggesting you have to aquire pre-requisite items from all over the place before you can even start the research process (e.g. npc hunts/ agent missions in different systems to get items or skills/ mining/ trading with others) None of that is "in station" ...
McWatt	Posted - 2003.11.05 16:45:00 - [78] Edited by: McWatt on 05/11/2003 16:47:38 Quote: I'm confused - I was suggesting you have to aquire pre-requisite items from all over the place before you can even start the research process (e.g. npc hunts/ agent missions in different systems to get items or skills/ mining/ trading with others) None of that is "in station" ... sorry, but sure it is. all this stuff can either be bought or brought to you by another char. the only way they have to force you out to space are agent missions. it s sad, but it s a fact.
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.05 16:55:00 - [79] Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 16:58:48 Why would another player bring you a highly desirable and rare skill pack which you can only aquire through agent missions (for e.g.), or a rare npc drop that is a pre-requisite for research of a highly desirable item? I can see why you would want to take some things out of station - but to have the whole process set up this way seems a bit extreme to me ... BTW the changes to manufacturing sound great. Definitely a step in the right direction ...
Steini OFSI	Posted - 2003.11.05 17:03:00 - [80] Quote: But how do you see a researcher research things in-game? Quite frankly, even a researcher character needs backup. You can let production factories run infinately, I can even understand ME research being automated, but inventing completely new tech should require more people then just one. Perhaps in addition to the Agent system, a sort of research pool thing for Corporations should be created. This should never approach the effectiveness of Agent research itself, however, who have an entire Empire behind them. Also, if such a system is considered, it would be preferable if this results only in the kind of BP's that upgrade techI items to TechII (the odd breakthrough here and there notwithstanding) Acceptable? Have you got ideas on this? (The idea lab thread is a mess O.o) What I suggested involves some work for researchers and a heavy skill training amount. The ammount of work would ofcourse need tweaking and I'll be damned if researching could be put afk. My suggestions are guidlines for more player action. Also I believe I've put very good limitations for rapid advancement in my idea. And accordingly tech lvl 2 guns would arrive more quickly than tech lvl 2 battleships (advanced guns might take more powergrid and mainly CPU so you couldn't fit all to a lvl 1 battleship). Ofcourse I'd like to see other ways, but a group of dedicated research players should be the most prominent way, and agents do not have the empire behind them, only their corporation. My concerns are for the sake of those who are willing to spend more skillpoints in research than battle and get nothing for it unless they're oblidged to do some missions. I might add that agents should also have the possibilty to hand out blueprints. As to begin with we might consider that an alternative for some time, as they'd might have to do some heavy scripting and that would take time. But I'll point again at page 2 and hope for feedbacks suggestion and a some kind of confirmation that the idea will rech the ear of someone who has something to say about it within CCP. /me whispers we can always hope we can affect the game to satisfy more players and make it more enjoyable.
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.11.05 18:34:00 - [81] Quote: Very interesting. Thinking now, posting later. Your forum membership has been revoked. You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
McWatt	Posted - 2003.11.05 19:31:00 - [82] Edited by: McWatt on 05/11/2003 19:32:35 Quote: Why would another player bring you a highly desirable and rare skill pack which you can only aquire through agent missions (for e.g.), or a rare npc drop that is a pre-requisite for research of a highly desirable item? I can see why you would want to take some things out of station - but to have the whole process set up this way seems a bit extreme to me ... your main and your corps member will bring you stuff. i just simply feel that it s not a good idea to create a proffesion that will/can spend it s entire time inside an indestructibel station. i think this is weird! the problem with the introduction of the new BPs is, (especially if it s done well, this means slowly!!!) lots of new monopolies. just think about MWD, AB, cargoexpansion,... once a BP is inside a station with a research slot, next to nothing (in high sec space: nothing) can be done to prevent it from dublication/production. this is a bad thing for the game: a few ppl will get the good BPs early. it s like winning the lottery. it will not involve any tactic at all but cause lot s of frustration to other players. as much as the process as possible needs to be shifted out of station. this is were the only real interaction is happening.
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.05 20:20:00 - [83] Edited by: Eldariel on 05/11/2003 20:24:59 Quote: a few ppl will get the good BPs early. it s like winning the lottery. it will not involve any tactic at all but cause lot s of frustration to other players You're assuming that the pre-requisite skills and items are freely available and easy to obtain... this wasn't the suggestion. The suggestion was a complex network of items/ skills which govern which tech trees an individual can research. Individuals don't "chose" to research specific areas - they first have to obtain a) the appropriate research specialisation skill (e.g. advanced propulsion) and b) the required pre-requisite item(s). Aquiring a) or b) in isolation might not be too hard, but finding an apppropriate match of both which work together would be hard ... and unpredictable.
McWatt	Posted - 2003.11.05 20:59:00 - [84] Edited by: McWatt on 05/11/2003 21:00:10 erm, i m not sure wether i got this. getting a skill and the fitting item is what i do all day long?!? btw, has anybody else noticed that with the miner 2 we ve already got the jewel piece of tech 2? tech 2 is dead, long live tech 3!!!
Copernicus	Posted - 2003.11.05 21:46:00 - [85] I'm confused here. What is the difference between a RESEARCH AGENT and a REGULAR AGENT? I'm a research character who has spent months training all the research skills to 4 and 5. I don't want to have to start doing agent missions (at least normal ones) to get Tech II stuff. Are these RESEARCH AGENTS special agents that you have to be a certain research level to get?????? Thanks, Copernicus
Dupree	Posted - 2003.11.06 08:22:00 - [86] Something I cant quite agree with is how this game seems to be only for big corps. Must we not forget that most of the great inventions (tech advances) came from a mad scientist working in his basement. How about ccp throw the little guy a bone for once. Why cant small corp who spend time building reserch and industry skills aquire Rare bp's to sale to large mass producing corps? I dont think everyone bought this game to play a mining/combat sim. The things we do in life echo in eternity. "Maximus Decimus Murideus"
Geldami	Posted - 2003.11.06 10:44:00 - [87] What happened to the original plan?? ooOOoo look a shiney module!!! here science guy.. heres 5 modules.. get me a blueprint for this baby!!!! science guy reverse engineers away.. destroys 2 or 3 (based on science/reverse engineer/item) and comes back with a coffee stained paper towel and says "heres your blueprint" sales guy says "ok. we cornered the market in this item.. lets try to improve it!!" science guy runs off a few xerox copies and files..starts to attempt tech level research on item - fails cause his science level to low and his luck was out that day ... production guy pulls the copy. runs off a few modules.. gives to science guy to reverse engineer - science guy makes another bp and tries again.. oo look.. after 3 weeks hard work we have a tech 2 item!!!!!!! as a corp you can corner a market.. trade with other corps.. and its all player based!!!!!!!! - THIS WAS THE ORIGINAL CONCEPT HINTED AT BY CCP OVER 8 MONTHS AGO - AND IN MY OPINION STILL THE BEST
Ravenal	Posted - 2003.11.06 12:29:00 - [88] uhm, havent read all the thread...sorry (so just ignore me if someone managed to post it already) people mentioned that they didnt want to do "fed-ex" mission all day long to get theese bp's correct me if im wrong but there are planned pc corp agents...thus the corp itself can research bp's as the npc corps. another item; you dont really have to do agent missions to be able to research bps (sure, you gotta earn the lvl # agent who gives access to the npc corp research facility) - you just have to start the research and eventually...the higher science skills you have and more "points" accumulated the better bp you get. you are essentially using a research facility the npc corp owns and doing research for them...and are rewarded with a bpc for your troubles ...new sig coming up Ravenal - Fate is what you make of it.
Estios	Posted - 2003.11.06 14:56:00 - [89] Hmm , let me check my agent list ... 51 active agents is good right ? Guess this isnt such bad news for everyone I do feel for you 'researchers' out there though. You DEFINATELY should have a bigger part to play in EVE (love some of the guys idea's about research teams and lab stations etc) In the meantime come see me and I might be able to hook you up 'Your 2100mm SmurgleBlaster perfectly strikes Sansha's spooge monster wrecking for 5000000 damage' So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
Malena	Posted - 2003.11.06 18:14:00 - [90] I cannot state how wholeheartedly I agree with Galdani (galdari?) the fellow who speaks of how reverse engineering and research should be implemented. I too remember the implication of that system so many months ago, and would love to see it in place. I think that alone would bring more new people into EVE. I love EVE dearly, but am distressed at the road this is taking. Some Polaris fellow earlier wrote that it should be the people with agents who are given the Tech 2 bps, else a small group of people will control the technology. Umm...hello? What did you see happening with the Miner 2 tech? Outrageous prices charged, all of it going to a ridiculously small group of people. What is the difference? Ask anyone not part of the group of people making huge amounts of cash, and they will tell you how much it sucked, but what choice did they have? For everyone who doesn't do missions and isn't going to....consider the following ....if noone is buying those tech 2 items, then the price will naturally come down. So please, hold off buying any of it as long as you can, so that none are ripped off. Malena
Draxx	Posted - 2003.11.07 10:22:00 - [91] One thing that people seem to be assuming here is that once they have the bp, they will be able to manufacture from it. What if the manufacturing requirements are not the same as the bp aquisition (agent research) requirements. From what I can tell from the adv tech skills, the requirements for tech 2 manufacturing are pretty high, especially if you want to be a general manufacturer.
Bite Me	Posted - 2003.11.08 17:36:00 - [92] well i got 1 agent. hoping shes will be a researcher. Ow . Wait its still me trainer
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.11.08 23:22:00 - [93] well, as I understand it they intend to release only a set quantity of each of the BP's for the higher techs - via this research auction system (you bid for the copys when they release them with the research points you've built up) so the prices will not come down unless the limited pool of people with a particular item try to undercut each other (might happen with little demand items I guess, but high demand items if anything prices might actually rise if the manufacturers cant keep up with demand) . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Sabahl	Posted - 2003.11.11 21:43:00 - [94] I hope to god this thread is being read by Papa Smurf and co because this idea is fatally flawed unless one specific issue is addressed. The idea of accruing points in player selected research areas is a good one. But the CCP lottery timing will be a major disaster UNLESS ALL ITEMS ARE RELEASED SIMULTANEOUSLY. Let me say this again. If CCP decides to release a single item onto the market by way of a blueprint lottery they will HAVE to release all items at the same time. Either that or else they will have to release advance information as to the sequence of the technology releases. Why? Because if they do not then the people who were lucky enough to research the areas which CCP decided to release first will have an advantage over everyone else brought about by nothing other than dumb luck. How would this affect the the game universe, and more precisely the economic infrastructure which has been built up? Effectively it would have pretty much the same effect as the release of miner 2 BPs. The more or less random release of an individual technology to a select group of people gave them a huge advantage in the capability to gather cash. Lets give an example. Imagine there are three items ti research, th SmurgleBlaster, the HumungaCargoBay and the SpeedyZipAfterburner. People have no idea which item to research so a third opt to research each of the technologies. However, unknown to them, CCP have decided the timeline dictates that tyey will release the technologies in the order of Speedy, Humunga and Smurgle at two week intervals. So what happens? Firstly, the pople who researched Speedy first will be able to start gathering cash from the proceeds of their research immediately while the Humungas and the Smurgles will just have to sit on their arses waiting for their tech to be released. Secondly, a fair proportion of the Speedies will see that they have had their goodies released to them and will switch research to the Humunga and Smurgle track hoping to get another BP, thereby diluting the chance to get a BP for those who didn't even start by researching Speedy. The entire thing wouldn't be so much a lottery as a crap shoot. It penalises those who were in the wrong place at the wrong time for no fault of their own. This is not the way to keep people interested. The solution would be to work out a method to allow an equal chance to profit from their research. Unfortunately, the lottery process is most certainly not the way to do it. Now, I do have some ideas as to how the system could work, and I even have some suggestions as to how it could be seemlessly incorporated into the existing Eve storyline without any need for changes to the existing or future structure of the game galaxy's unfolding history but it's all rather involved and would take up far too much time here, especially if CCP is not even going to read this. However, if any of the devs are interested I would be happy to email my thoughts if they may be of use. Cheers Sabahl
Dealer	Posted - 2003.11.11 23:32:00 - [95] This may have already been posted before but, oh well. Way back in Beta there was a skill for a Chief Science Officer. The skill description was to allow gang research. Now I believe the skill has now been dropped... I asked that it be reinstated. Eldariel's ideas were great. When I was checking out this game the research possibilites were what pulled me in. Visions of a Civilization style tech tree with a research team to work with sounded great. I am sorry but the agent proposal sounds ok but, not as intriging as a team of researchers working on a bp for the next breakthrough. Just my 2 isk.
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.12 14:27:00 - [96] Sabahl you miss the point. Free Market is what you just descrided as bad. You are wrong. It is about the right place at the time. Choose wisely my friend...... -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
McWatt	Posted - 2003.11.12 18:46:00 - [97] Edited by: McWatt on 12/11/2003 18:48:49 Quote: Sabahl you miss the point. Free Market is what you just descrided as bad. You are wrong. It is about the right place at the time. Choose wisely my friend...... free marked = random giving out of BP s by a higher deity? hm. i don t like to bring up the miner 2 story, but if this is what you had in mind with right time/right place, have fun. Sabahl is right, because there are important issues, forcing them to do a slow introduction of items. this is mainly to stretch out the "big event" (yes, slower baby). it s quite clear that there will be a rush for certain BP s as only a handfull of them offer miner 2- money making- quality... it will be great fun.
Sabahl	Posted - 2003.11.12 18:55:00 - [98] Exactly. This is nothing to do with economics or free markets, as you put it. It's everything to do with game ballance. The proposed release of blueprints would be stupendously unballancing if managed in the way described. Unfortunately, such problems with the release of BPs will have a direct impact upon the fragile player economy. At that point, those who have will happily say that it's all about a "free market". Well it isn't. It's about poor game design. You either give everyone an equal starting position and playing field within which to compete or else you end up creating a super-stratified player community where those who did not have the chance to obtain the goodies early realise they can never catch up and quit. The theory of having agents distribute BPs by a lottery amongst those who have put in the time to gain a chance to obtain them is a good one. The method itself will not work within the confines of a highly limited, staggered technoogy release.
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.12 20:45:00 - [99] We I think you miss one thing, Technology does not all occur in one moment. I understand your FAIR play you dream of, I would hope that a few make the big bucks. They are the lucky ones. I would hope things are a progression. There is a BP for a better miner drone which makes a better repair drone ect. You could place any tech 2 item there. What happens if it all fair then there will be no market. Consider companies now. You buy the latest computer and next year there is a better one and so on. So your concept is wrong based on the RL exp. Lottery is the fairest. If no one comes up with the idea then there is in no BP. PC's have to make the ideas that trigger a agent to generate the flow to a BP. -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Temujin Destovai	Posted - 2003.11.12 22:43:00 - [100] Reading this I have to say this entire system seems really unrealistic and disappointing. Training up for Tech 2 Items on Agents, after doing treadmill agent missions for faction standings, and then getting the items via a lottery. This is definitally what I would call #1 realistic or #2 fun Im also still a bit in the dark on how corp agents work. Do they give missions that you could theoretically only complete with more than 1 person, or does it allow you to pool research points together to afford bigger projects (this would defintally be cooler). The way it stands the entire concept of Tech I blueprints being researched or of any use at all is being totally left aside, same goes for being able to use ISK to fund research projects. Infact the entire corporation and community aspect seems to be left out. When we aquired our miner II and shield amp bps we had our guys simply running missions around the clock, which was mindnumbingly boring for them, and let us in no way at all support them. Then they recieved "valuable" blueprints which should theoretically require logistical support, labs etc, for simply transporting grain and tritanium? A system where you run agent missions and your research agent says, "Hey are you interested in setting up a team for a strike force tech 2 apocalypse hull?" upon which you then give him your apoc tech I original, and then work with your corporation to aquire research points by running missions, and/or aquiring points according to your research level etc, until you finally after lots of work and labour get your improved blueprint back, would be challenging. (same for all other Tech II bps, where you actually research Tech I bps with your agent/team (or alone which would take longer). And instead of releasing original tech II bps, maybe some agents who managed to aquire them, could sell them to his runners for money perhaps. Atleast make it something that goes above #1 treadmill agent for faction #2 get research agent, watch points go up #3 lottery for blueprints #4 yay some random guy gets lucky #5 and on and on it goes just some ideas :o The Chronicles of Xanadu
Angry Sheep	Posted - 2003.11.12 22:48:00 - [101] 2p worth - sucks, Agent missions are bad for me as im only on a few hours and that time i run my factories, this is a giant penalty system, only those that grind for hours get something. I am paying to have fun - not run agent missions, you must have at least 2 points of entry for any tech or BP, that way thge PAYING customer has a CHOICE rant over, sorry - ill have a drink now It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear*
Tituan	Posted - 2003.11.13 00:31:00 - [102] I think this is really a silly way of doing things. A research char shouldn't be able to be an alt or something, rather a char with at least a couple mil skill pts invested in research skills (wich aren't in the game yet) This would deter alot of people from jumping on the research bandwagon. However the reason I truly hate this idea is that I believe you should have to own the origional BP to research the tech lvl 2. Think of all the billions of isk people spent buying BS Blue prints, and now their industry has the potential to be destroyed by some guy whom got lucky in an agent auction and got a techII bp from his agent. Thats absurd. Rather let Research characters(Again research chars would be those with millions of skill pts dedicated different research skills, Example skill could be Amarr Battleship Tech lvl 20 skill) research BPS to the next tech lvl. CCP could monitor how many people are researching what BPs and set the required amount of research time needed before there is even a chance of a breakthrough. Thus if there is alot of people researching Miner BPs in hope for a Miner II bp CCP could make it so there would have to be 1000+ hrs of research required, then every additional hour there is a 0.02% cumalitive chance of having a breakthrough. the time required and chance would be modified by the char's skills. Also allow group researching so that several chars working together pool thier research together. Only allow players to have 1 tech research project going at a time(perhaps allow an expensive very high lvl skill allow for more)
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.13 00:44:00 - [103] Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 13/11/2003 00:55:56 This idea is terrible. Not one good thing about it. Agents distributing or tinkering with BPs fine, but not the definitive game method of BP/research work. There is only one way people want it to work, players have said how they want it to work, this is identical to how CCP have said how it was intended to work since before alpha, and it is very clear and very obvious how research is supposed to work. Research is supposed to occur in the research lab. Researchers were supposed to be able to pool their research skills together to increase research. Industrials were supposed to be able to be outfitted as a research lab. Agents were supposed to give access to secret goods, special stations with secret goods, special deals, supposed to do hacking, unlock closed star gates to secret space areas, supposed to spy on other corps. Stick to the plan. If this continues to be handled in this ad hoc and haphazard way, tech II will again screw up the Eve economy. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Missa	Posted - 2003.11.13 09:18:00 - [104] I find the idea that agents are going to be handing out tech 2 BPs through a lottery + time system simply appalling as a player and a Scientist in the Eve universe. I wholeheartedly believe that if this system goes through it will be in my opinion worse than the “give a advanced miner to a random player” scandal that happened some time ago. Scientists should be the ones researching better BPs, NOT agent runners (no offence to you poor guys with that mind numbing job). Sure BPs should be rewards from some agent missions, but the introduction of new tech items really involve the scientist PCs, not some new Agent scientist NPC. I mean seriously, if this goes through, I will be more useless as a scientist than a NPC! I would like to think that as a player character I would be more important to the game than a NPC…especially when I happen to specialize in a particular part of that game. Tech introduction through agent missions as a long term solution to introduce new items is totally insane. I am sorry I cannot put it any kinder way. Please find a better fix and soon. --Missa New Siggy to Come Soon(tm)
Sabahl	Posted - 2003.11.13 12:18:00 - [105] Edited by: Sabahl on 13/11/2003 12:22:47 Harisdrop, you have completely missed the point. This is NOT about "fair play". It is about game ballance. You can't just randomly trigger game events of such magnitude without there being a negative impact upon the game's economy and thusly upon the entire game itself. It needs to be done in a controlled manner and that means removing the random aspect. CCP arbitrarily releasing random BPs as they decide the technology warrants is incredibly bad design. What would be far more sensible would be if the BPs were released upon a set amount of research points being accrued globally in a specific research area. That would be a true player-driven economy, with the players effectviely dictating what technologies are released through their own research efforts rather than a deus-ex-machina intrusion by the devs (and it would also make more sense as higher amounts of research in an area should return the goodies faster anyway). But this is not what CCP have said they would be doing. They are just going to randomly release technologies as and when they think it would be a good idea. Which is ridiculous. So let me spell this out. The distribution method of allowing the BPs to be "lottoed" amongst the people who have put in the time to accrue research points is a good idea. However, the sequence that the technology is released has to be highly controlled and cannot be done randomly in a sequence which only the devs are aware of.
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.13 13:46:00 - [106] You all are just mad that your mega corps dont have monopolies. 1)Why do you believe that anyone that works hard for agents should not be rewarded. It seems to me that this game need specialized professions. I see all these skills characters have. They think that a manufacturer should be doing research then hop in his spacecraft and go kill a few pirates. That is soo not realistic. Its about choice. The way things happen in real life are not fair or balanced. The world is dog eat dog. Find your path and not worry what others are doing cause you CANT control them. The Market should make people do the what the market wants. If Noxcium is cheap make things with it and pull a profit. I believe decay will fix everything in the market not tech 2. 2) Tech II will be ohhs and ahhs but not common. With decay you will see things become harder to keep. "They dont make things like they use to." Things will just degrade where that range is not as far or the cpu its using is not a efficient or shields are not working 100%. Time to go get a new one or get a a mechanic to repair it. Its not about you its about the market. You might be the one that makes it big but everyone should not be so fortunate. Life is not fair. Things happen that you can not control. Life lesson............. -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Tituan	Posted - 2003.11.13 16:09:00 - [107] Mad about mega corps haveing monopolies??? Umm no, I'm research based char and CEO of my own one person company. Currently I mine, trade, kill some pirates(though not good at it) etc... Why? because thats all for me to do, researching in EVE is a joke, their is absoluty no point in training skills related to research(although mine are all r5 in hopes that ccp will introduce more and make the scientist a viable proffesion) I don't have any monopolies on the market, yet I am very much against this idea of using agents for tech II. Releasing tech II BPs in this manner isn't even working towards it, people spent billions trying to get tech I battle ship blue prints and you're going to tell me that I'm just upset that your 100 hours worth of agent running was more work than the 1000+ man hours it takes to make enough to purchace a BS BP original??? (lol biggest run on sentance award goes to me, too lazy to fix =) ) I'm sorry but their should be alot of investment on player's behave both time, char skills, and isk for people to get Tech II BPs, not just see whom does xx amount of agent missions and gets "lucky" in a lottery. Anyone whom has spent the money to purchase an original BP and takes an enormous amount of time researching the BP should eventually get the Tech II version of that BP providing that they have the vast amount of researching skills needed to research the Tech increase(skills that need to be implemented). The EVE market should not be destroyed by freelancers whom get "lucky" in some lottery thus ruining months of other corp's work and isk.
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.13 20:27:00 - [108] Quote: Why? because thats all for me to do, researching in EVE is a joke, their is absoluty no point in training skills related to research(although mine are all r5 in hopes that ccp will introduce more and make the scientist a viable proffesion) From CCP: "Research agents will generally have a skill level equal to their agent level. The rate at which you accrue research points is dictated by the skill level of your and your agent, whichever is lowest, and slightly by agent quality. Also, blueprints will have minimum skill levels required to get them. For Example the Gallente SmurgleBlaster IV requires Gallente Weapon Tech level 4 and General Smurgle Fields 2." Notice your skills will base what type of BP you get. Those skill that will be made availible with Tech II will make you specialized in a specific field of research.So first you have to have a 4 skill level Research, then under those are specific skills. www.eve-db.com has a good science skill list. So consider the level 5 skills you have. So really the player/agent will drive the BP distribution. If a scientist class in game does not exist for Propulsion there will be no tech II propulsion. Its the market that will drive PC Scientists to fill those items that are demanded. It will be upto the PC scientist to choose his field that he believes will make him/corp the most profit. The skill time sink is incredible. Look at the skill req to get some of those science skills. Choose the wrong one and you might have to play catch up. Sounds like real life to me. Fair no balance no real yes market yes.... ITS YOUR CHOICE follow the it well. I believe Tech I was a prelim for what you want to do. TECH II, TECH III, TECH IV, TECH V will make a specific field choice for each scientist character. -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Belzavior	Posted - 2003.11.13 22:17:00 - [109] Yet still you have to now do the agent ladder, and you could be the most brilliant scientist in the EVE universe yet being held back by a crummy agent, because the NPC doesn't have very good skills. Another thing you failed to address is the fact that this method costs very little compared to those whom purchase expensive blue prints that will be outdated after the release of TECH II.
Sabahl	Posted - 2003.11.14 11:41:00 - [110] Quote: It will be upto the PC scientist to choose his field that he believes will make him/corp the most profit. The skill time sink is incredible. Look at the skill req to get some of those science skills. Choose the wrong one and you might have to play catch up. Sounds like real life to me. Fair no balance no real yes market yes.... ITS YOUR CHOICE follow the it well. This is the last response I am writing to Harisdrop because he is justbeing obtuse for no reason. Contrary to your beliefs this is nothing at all liek the real world. In the "real world" you find that investing huge amounts of time into researching a problem tends to result in a speedier solution to that problem being discovered. Not so given this new method of BP release. You could have the entire server researching SpeedyZip Afterburners but if CCP decide that they are releasing Smurgleblasters first there is bugger all you can do about it. That is nothing like real life. That is a deus ex machina operation, completely taking game evolution out of the players' hands and forcing it down a track whcih only the devs have advance knowledge of. And that's the problem. It is impossible to play a game if you have no way of knowing what results can arise from your actions. You could play an absolute perfect game and yet if the devs decide to investigate something entirely different you are screwed through no fault of your own. It would be like trying to have a game of chess where the pieces moved randomly on the board every other turn. Very simple, really. If you can't understand this I recommend going away and reading some books on elementary game design theory. Because no matter how much you want this to be a real life experience it is still just a game.
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.14 13:26:00 - [111] First: Sometimes the greatest investment now has no meaning the next day. Second: There are many exapmles of technology not coming in a timely manner. Just think if Napolean got the automatic machine gun. Or Germany had the nuclear weapon in 1940. Man I wish I had and Xbox in 1975 when I was a kid... I will never be convinced that life is fair or balanced. This game is not like others. Thats why I like it. -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Brand McKnight	Posted - 2003.11.14 18:31:00 - [112] So to sum it up you want to be rewarded for relatively nothing? But lets use examples that make's sense shall we? Do you see new small and inexperianced corporations produce automobiles that are better than the major car production companies?? What companies are constantly pushing for better products? The companies that are working in that industry. You would be insane to think that someone could just barge into an industry that he has no background in and be able to suddenly dominate it(as would be the case in this so called agent "lotto")
Qual	Posted - 2003.11.14 19:13:00 - [113] Quote: Another thing you failed to address is the fact that this method costs very little compared to those whom purchase expensive blue prints that will be outdated after the release of TECH II. First of my char is a great science guy. I look forward to start getting outside station soon to do agent missions. What i hope is to get the BP's that will allow me to upgrade Tech I ships to Tech II ships. TOgether with my large collection of high ME Tech I ship bp's i'll mae loads'o'money. I really dont see the problem... Head of Xanadu Elite Ships Department
Mirial	Posted - 2003.11.15 01:26:00 - [114] Big doesn't always equate to better or success. Often it does due to greater resources spent on R&D and products but not always. Think about Apple and Microsoft when they started out, compared to the behemoth of IBM, or later Netscape against the giant Microsoft had become. The problem in EVE is how to let there be a great enough reward to justify pouring large amounts of ISK and/or time into research yet leave an opening for new breakthroughs by smaller corps and not just lead to the rich getting richer (or more high tech) indefinitely.
Albar Gray	Posted - 2003.11.15 07:07:00 - [115] I was wondering if there would be a limit on the number of agents you could have 'assisting' you with research projects / teams. If each project counted against the number of lab slots you were allowed, then it would make at least one of the research skills useful. (Laboratory Operation) If the rate at which you accumulate research points is dependent on your research skills, then at least they are being used as well. However, if the agent is 'assisting' you with the running of a research project, then why don't they allow you to set-up your own research project in a lab of your choosing It could work in exactly the same way, except there would be no agent bonus to the rate at which research points were gained, and it would cost the lab rental fee. Also if the lab needed anything, it is just as capable of eve-mailing the player as any agent. Of course, this approach might see all the research labs gobbled up in under 2 hours, so some care may be needed. But if you limit things to the laboratory operation, then it would just be a way of filling your available slots, an agent with a bonus, or a lab. ----------------------------------------------- IÆm not schizophrenic... ThatÆs my alt
Yodd	Posted - 2003.11.15 09:47:00 - [116] I think the idea is good, it adresses several important points: 1 Number of BPs on market needs to be limited 2 Research skills should be used 3 You should have to invest time with your character, otherwise alts are just created and sits there passively, rendering research profession useless. I don't see any other solution to (3) than having to do agent missions at the moment, but feel free to suggest one. The important thing is not agent missions, but the point 3 above.
Helison	Posted - 2003.11.15 11:36:00 - [117] Edited by: Helison on 15/11/2003 11:38:46 Research has to cost something. You should have to supply minerals, other components and also ISK. And you should have already have the BP from tech I. Why should a freelancer be able to research a Megathron II? But a freelancer should be able to research a better afterburner, if he has the BP for afterburner I. Quote: 1 Number of BPs on market needs to be limited This is the only point, which isn¦t really possible with lab-research. And this is also a point, which is very dangerous. Look at the Miner2-issue! 2 Corps sold them for extremous prices, very many people complained about this and why? CCP didn¦t introduce enough BPs. Now it could be possible, that CCP wants to prevent this situation and introduces too much new BPs. The result would be, that Tech II items will be underpriced on the market very fast and the market will remain dead. I think, that it will be better, if players can decide, which BP they want to research.
Belzavior	Posted - 2003.11.15 20:14:00 - [118] As for limiting BP's I don't think there should be an X limit. If someone invested enough into BS bp and had no chance to research to the next tech lvl of that billion isk investment it is now next to worthless, no one is gonna wann buy the bp because its outdated and no one is gonna buy his outdated ships. I would like to see dynamic limits placed on the bp introduction. To slow the introduction. So the more BPs in existance the longer it will take for someone else to research. This would help to force corporations to research in new fields, and not prohibit them the chance to break into competitive market.
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.15 22:53:00 - [119] Edited by: Eldariel on 15/11/2003 22:56:01 Quote: And you should have already have the BP from tech I I keep seeing this and I really can't understand it. It's self perpetuating - only those with massive ISK resources at their disposal will be able to research items of real worth if its linked to BP ownership. The lower end players might as well just give up ...that's just bad design Whatever the system is, it definitely needs to recognise the BP investment made by corps/ individuals to date (i.e. its integrated in some way with the end to end process of generating an upgraded BP), but I would definitely not like to see "profitable" research the domain of megacorps only That would, to coin a phrase ... suck
Helison	Posted - 2003.11.15 23:33:00 - [120] Quote: I keep seeing this and I really can't understand it. It's self perpetuating - only those with massive ISK resources at their disposal will be able to research items of real worth if its linked to BP ownership. The lower end players might as well just give up ...that's just bad design I¦m CEO of a small corp with about 12 members without any real expensive BPs (no cruiser or BS). But I am interested in researching the BPs which we own. An afterburner II BP or a wasp II BP could be very good and rewarding BPs. There isn¦t any logic, that we could research a Megathron II BP. And I don¦t like the idea, that BPs are distributed by a lottery. I want work for it and I want to know for what I work.
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.16 02:22:00 - [121] Edited by: Eldariel on 16/11/2003 02:25:50 I'm not saying lower end BPs won't be profitable for a time - but you can bet the megacorps will be selling A/B IIs as well. The market will get saturated with the "good" low end items real fast (unless its via CCPs lottery/ handout system) Then you're just left with the upper end BPs which you will be priced out of the market on ... and it will only get worse when t3 and beyond arrives. Depending on how research is set up I see no reason why you can't research a Megathron or associated technology in a small corp (e.g. if you own one via reverse engineering). It should just take you a hell of a lot longer. What you shouldn't be able to do is manufacture from the output of the research directly ... manufacture should require the original BP plus the output of the research process - that way the investment in the original BP is maintained but it doesn't get in the way of research
Helison	Posted - 2003.11.16 10:37:00 - [122] Edited by: Helison on 16/11/2003 10:43:08 Quote: What you shouldn't be able to do is manufacture from the output of the research directly ... manufacture should require the original BP plus the output of the research process - that way the investment in the original BP is maintained but it doesn't get in the way of research This would be one step in the right direction, but not enough. I would require the original BP for the research itself. How can you develop a new module without knowing the predecessor? This would be the same effort like developing a new module. Are you able to develop in RL a new Pentium x processor, just because you have a Pentium x-1 processor in your computer? NO! And it will not help, if you have already produced graphic-cards or similiar. You have to know the complete production-process and still more. Another point: What use would it be for me, if I have "the output of the research process" but not the BP itself? I could sell the output or I can buy the BP. But what if I¦m only interested in producing and I don¦t have the money for the BP? Sell the "output" for a few ISK? LOL!
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.16 11:03:00 - [123] Edited by: Eldariel on 16/11/2003 11:11:01 Research doesn't have to have a pre-requisite, otherwise nothing would ever get invented... Just because someone's never seen a wheel before doesn't mean to say they wouldn't be able to come up with the idea for one in isolation Quote: Another point: What use would it be for me, if I have "the output of the research process" but not the BP itself? I could sell the output or I can buy the BP. But what if I¦m only interested in producing and I don¦t have the money for the BP? Sell the "output" for a few ISK? LOL! a) If you don't own the BP, by your own process how would you do the research in the first place. You're no better off b) Yes sell the output - that research script (or whatever it is that is generated) is potentially worth a hell of a lot to those who do own the original BP. You're not talking small change there. How much would you have sold the upgrade script for a miner I-> Miner II for? And how much do you think others would have been willing to pay for it?
Yodd	Posted - 2003.11.16 11:06:00 - [124] Quote: And I don¦t like the idea, that BPs are distributed by a lottery. I want work for it and I want to know for what I work. You will, the chance you get the BP is dependent on the research effort you put in plus your skills. A lottery weighted by your efforts is exactly the same thing as you having a certain chance of getting the bp.
Helison	Posted - 2003.11.16 11:53:00 - [125] Quote: Just because someone's never seen a wheel before doesn't mean to say they wouldn't be able to come up with the idea for one in isolation But we aren¦t talking about developing new items but about better versions of items which exist. Quote: If you don't own the BP, by your own process how would you do the research in the first place. You're no better off I wouldn¦t start the research. Quote: You will, the chance you get the BP is dependent on the research effort you put in plus your skills. A lottery weighted by your efforts is exactly the same thing as you having a certain chance of getting the bp. With the lottery I have no idea, which BP I¦ll get. If I can start the research myself in a research lab I can decide which BP I try to develop.
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.16 11:55:00 - [126] Quote: I'm not saying lower end BPs won't be profitable for a time - but you can bet the megacorps will be selling A/B IIs as well. The market will get saturated with the "good" low end items real fast (unless its via CCPs lottery/ handout system) Auction system dammit! Megacorps will not be selling A/B IIs because they've spent all their money competing with each other trying to buy battleships BPs. Auction system is the only way for this to work! ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Eldariel	Posted - 2003.11.16 13:41:00 - [127] Edited by: Eldariel on 16/11/2003 13:47:44 Quote: Quote: Just because someone's never seen a wheel before doesn't mean to say they wouldn't be able to come up with the idea for one in isolation But we aren¦t talking about developing new items but about better versions of items which exist. Yes - but then to have this "realistic" you need Reverse Engineering of items generating original BP's. Dyson wasn't working from a "blueprint" of the hoover - but a tech advancement of the hoover, nonetheless, is what he achieved ... In the absence of realism, we have to find something which doesn't totally exclude low end players from "getting lucky" or working towards a high end research goal. The traditional means by which they would get lucky (inventing completely new technology trees) just isn't an option, and is unlikely to be in the future. Hence we have to compensate for this in the tech advancement process ... Auctions would be just another way of saying "richest wins" - which is lame imho
Yodd	Posted - 2003.11.17 11:43:00 - [128] Quote: With the lottery I have no idea, which BP I¦ll get. If I can start the research myself in a research lab I can decide which BP I try to develop. From the original post: Quote: Basically, it works thus: * Char says: Hiya, Agent! I'm interested in having some research done. Could you head up my research team? * Agent says: Sure, Char! What type of research do you want done? * Char says: "Weapons Upgrades" * Agent says: Okey dokey. So you can decide that with this system.
Helison	Posted - 2003.11.17 14:27:00 - [129] You can just decide your research field but not the item, which you want to research. For example it is luck, if you are given the chance to get a BP for a light ion blaster II or a 425mm Railgun II.
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.17 17:45:00 - [130] Remember your skills have to be at a level to do such research. Looking at eve-db skills required to make adv items require lots of skill 5 levels. Soo you are not some un-educated person at the get go. You know exstenisve amounts about the line of reasearch. Example. If you are a network guy knowing how to put all the hardawre together. Then you go to school and become an engineer you will know general information and the specific information. Putting this information together you should develope new things. Skills are the key. Your path is critical... -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.17 19:43:00 - [131] Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 17/11/2003 20:07:25 Quote: Auctions would be just another way of saying "richest wins" - which is lame imho There can be exceptions, but the rich normally win. Nothing lame about it. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.17 23:43:00 - [132] Edited by: j0sephine on 17/11/2003 23:48:58 "Auction system dammit! Megacorps will not be selling A/B IIs because they've spent all their money competing with each other trying to buy battleships BPs. Auction system is the only way for this to work!" ... What is stopping the megacorps which fail to win auction for the battleship blueprints, from settling for less 'valuable' products instead and using their money to win these auctions? "There can be exceptions, but the rich normally win. Nothing lame about it." I think as far as research goes, it's rather the smart that win. Being rich is normally a side-effect of being smart and can help a lot, but is not required. ;s
JPFAmarr	Posted - 2003.11.18 05:46:00 - [133] I'm guessing that the implementation for this facility is well underway and player feedback on it unlike change it. But, for what it's worth...here we go. 1) The new facility makes owners of unlimited researched blueprint COPIES look very smart. They never had to pay the cost of the original and in the end got something just about as good as an original. Why? Because original owners that have sunk tons of cash into originals will in the end be holding a bunch of junk when the Tech II version BP comes out. 2) In general the lottery system is a good idea. But what I think needs to change is who and how people can enter the lottery. Agents should be one way. ME and PE research on original BP another. And finally, for the mega corps, you can pay HUGE amounts of cash to enter lottery (which you may not win). For example, I can go along the lines of a accruing research points with my agent OR I can accrue research points via research. Ideally, existing research on original blueprints would be worth something. When the big blueprint lottery happens just pool up research points earned via agents and earned via research and take the highest N and give them the Tech II BPC 3) All TechII BPs should be limited copies only. 4) Introduce the other basic and tech I BP originals to the market so researchers can have something to do in the mean time. Example, Cargo Expander I, Basic Coproc, etc. Generic Corporation
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.18 09:53:00 - [134] Quote: ... What is stopping the megacorps which fail to win auction for the battleship blueprints, from settling for less 'valuable' products instead and using their money to win these auctions? There are two reasons for this. Firstly, because there are many battleship blueprints to be had. Secondly, if the megacorp 'failed' it means its not a megacorp in the same league with the one that won the BP. The result of this is that megacorps that failed to get the 'best', then go after the next best BP, with the other megacorps that are in its league. The biggest megacorp will have used up its resources already from buying the 'best' or few of the 'best' BPs, that they can no longer compete with the other BPs. This continues untill it reaches the individual players competing for the more mundane BPs such as ammo or other modules. Now, this can work even if the BP was not distributed initially via an auction. Such as someone getting a BP through agents, loot drops, the lone researcher getting a eureka moment, or what not. This person may not be a manufacturer or researcher and wants to give it to someone who can actually put the BP to use. As long as there is an auction system, this person can put up his BP on the auction for others to buy. An auction system has implications far beyond just BPs, we see it all the time as players try to auction things off on the trade channel or forums. In fact, the market itself is an auction system, people putting up the best price competing with others, its the same thing. Its just not very effective. Now, another issue is having battleship BPs worth hundreds of millions of ISK just simply falling into the lap of the random individual. I am not sure any one individual player or corp is worth such a BP just suddenly appearing while everyone else toiling away, also devoting 'research' points to their agent, gets absolutely nothing and having the chance of never getting anything either. Therefore, I feel that some BPs can be distributed in a multitude of ways, but most BPs should be distributed via empires or concord via the periodical auctions of a set of wide ranging BPs where everyone can be a part of obtaining openly. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.19 15:59:00 - [135] I think this is more about Race. I think ever race should have different ways of distributing thier tech two. Caldari should go to highest bidder, Gallente should have a lottery, Amrarr should have a competition....... Let the Empires of eve develope in this way. Where Race matters. Standing factions agents.... The game needs to be complex..... -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Jeb'Ba	Posted - 2003.11.20 14:52:00 - [136] sooo..to make a long story short...should i start doing agent missions now to get a nice research agent???
McWatt	Posted - 2003.11.22 10:06:00 - [137] Quote: I think this is more about Race. I think ever race should have different ways of distributing thier tech two. Caldari should go to highest bidder, Gallente should have a lottery, Amrarr should have a competition....... Let the Empires of eve develope in this way. Where Race matters. Standing factions agents.... The game needs to be complex..... erm, no??? wins my award for most stupid post ever....
Momm	Posted - 2003.11.23 23:50:00 - [138] Lottery per corp, not per person, i.e lottery per CEO or 'elected' researcher with the highest science skills , Ceo is likely to share it amongst the corporation, and brings corporations together a little more. And to base distribution off of the agent system is well in my opinion weak, unless missions become fun to do rather than ship 100 of frozen food in a cruiser or battleship to a system 2 jumps away, not utilizing the pilots abilities unfortunatley "Life is unfair" "Eve is Unfair", so quit complaining cause its just like life, maybe, or not
McWatt	Posted - 2003.11.24 19:49:00 - [139] Edited by: McWatt on 24/11/2003 21:19:52 sorry guys and girls, i m too lazy to check this entire bull** again, but i think i brought in the term lottery. i used this word to voice my opinion that there are only few items about to realy bring big money to their owners. for everyone: lottery is not a good thing (sigh. some ppl have weird ideas. i pray every night that nobody is listening to them...) click? ** (this is getting useless!!!)
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2003.11.25 17:20:00 - [140] just on a side note, papasmurf just confirmed that pirate factions wont get research agents. pirate factions will offer black market agents.... once it's in the game.....<troll>my guess summer or autumn 2004</troll>. so I seem to remember that i heard something about ccp trying to get ppl out of empire? yer right. all the ppl in 0.0 will have to go to empire to get tech2 or do the o so funny 20+ jumps bist mining ops to be able to buy tech2. good move. Pirate factions should have research agent's too, if they don't do research how could they survive with their tech1 stuff when fighting tech5 empires? They should add at least 1 other way of getting tech2 bp's. agent missions can't be the only way. There needs to be an option of researching tech1 bp's investing the time, skillz, and isk. just my 2 cents
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.25 20:01:00 - [141] McWatt, I understand you dont like the mega corporation region you call home. I think its about Race and the way we research is done. Soo if you dont like it then dont worry your little head over it. I hope the new way of doing things with faction missions and non faction mission makes agent quality and success harder. I hope no just anyone with no social skill can do agents. Cause who wants a oaf working for an agent. -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.26 16:14:00 - [142] I was right Race does matter: The new research agents are distributed across EVE as follows: Faction: Amarr Empire 31 Caldari State 73 Gallente Federation 88 Minmatar Republic 48 The Servant Sisters of EVE 2 Thukker Tribe 8 Region: Aridia 1 Derelik 2 Devoid 1 Domain 30 Essence 18 Everyshore 11 Genesis 8 Great Wildlands 1 Heimatar 7 Kador 12 Khanid 2 Kor-Azor 4 Lonetrek 26 Metropolis 30 Molden Heath 1 Placid 13 Sinq Laison 11 Solitude 3 Syndicate 3 Tash-Murkon 21 The Bleak Lands 6 The Citadel 15 The Forge 18 Verge Vendor 6 The new research skills are all Rank 5, all have Science Skill at level 5 as primary skill required and as all science skills they have intelligence as primary attribute and memory as secondary. Here's the list with the secondary skill requirements: Amarrian Starship Engineering Mechanic 5 Caldari Starship Engineering Mechanic 5 Electromagnetic Physics Cybernetics 5 Electronic Engineering Cybernetics 5 Gallentian Starship Engineering Mechanic 5 Graviton Physics Engineering 5 High Energy Physics Engineering 5 Hydromagnetic Physics Engineering 5 Laser Physics Engineering 5 Mechanical Engineering Mechanic 5 Minmatar Starship Engineering Mechanic 5 Molecular Engineering Mechanic 5 Nanite Engineering Cybernetics 5 Nuclear Physics Engineering 3 Plasma Physics Engineering 5 Quantum Physics Engineering 5 Rocket Science Mechanic 5 As you can see, lots of training time ahead... so get an early start. -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Braccas	Posted - 2003.11.26 16:54:00 - [143] Edited by: Braccas on 26/11/2003 16:54:47 Til today i was ALWAYS opitmistic about what CCP is goin to do with Tech2. Now this gives me shivers...i can¦t understand that. Why oh why do you force players to interact with NPCs to get SKILLS AND BPs? I still think a scientist does not need an "Agent" to research anything. We got skills, we got Tech1 Bueprints, why not implement a logic where u can research a Tech1 BP in certain ways depending o ur skills and attributes? You want to slow down the learning process? Then DO what is logical and CAP the number and type of skills by a characters ATTRIBUTES. That way people would HAVE TO specialize. We all know that ppl did 600+ missions and did not reveive a BP, you really want to tell us that it IS GONNA CHANGE in Tech2? Take a Tech1 BP, research it...in every possible way...maybe get other Players into the research process, cuze maybe ur own research efforts are capped at a certain point unless u get another specialized scientist have a look at it. Another senseless point: Amarr Empire is the biggest in EVE, but Caldari got 72 research agents hile there¦s only 31 Amarr? What¦s wrong with that?
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.26 17:20:00 - [144] Its about race. Gallente are scientists. Amarr are military types. So race matters. The others have been trying to make such strides. Remember that its not about fair but STORY LINE. Read the news -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Brukhai Khan	Posted - 2003.11.26 20:32:00 - [145] Edited by: Brukhai Khan on 26/11/2003 20:36:19 I think that the new research agent system, in general, is a way too simple BP distribution mechanism rather than an actual gameplay addition: It enforces single-player behavior, there is no feasible way of splitting either the work or the rewards between players, especially since the new relevant skills are the skills needed to make the most of the bluepring (researching a new BP and copying it). Therefore, no or very few players will be integrated into the process before the final product hits the market. BP Acquisition through Agents is a very passive process, you don¦t actually need to spend time and effort on your research agent since the only factor you need to worry about is your skills and standing. No real effort on the players side is required. In reality this will mean that people will continue to work the regula agents in order to keep their standings up, while their research agents just "do their thing". This means that this way of acquiring BPs is open, pretty much without restrictions, to everyone. Basically this would be a good thing, but with the large amount of content-starved players there will be many more people lining up for research agents than actual tech2 BPs can be given out without flooding the market and ruining balance. This also means that the randomness will be very noticeable, i.e. you have to be more lucky than good, or dedicated in order to acquire a Nurgleblaster BP. There are several different ways of improving this, the main focus should be to involve more players while keeping the rewards the same. Keeping the amount of new tech low isn¦t such a problem, since a tech2 BP original will mean loads and loads of revenue. So the goal shoudl be to diversify the system by bringing as many skill and occupational variations into it as possible, in order to make it a viable, full-fledged gameplay branch of its own. In order to draw more participants into the BP game, make multiple requirements for research agents. Since at the moment the pretty much provide their service for free, this won¦t be perceived as a problem. Represent the research as a complicated, ongoing process. Possible research ingredients could be (without having to change any of the other elements of the game): - Minerals (after all, in research you need to do a fair bit of experimenting) - Trade Goods (-"-) - Rare Modules / Rat loot If we can¦t have reverse engineering, let the agents do it. You don¦t even have to implement NPC kill missions for this. Just tell the player that in order to research his Nurgleblaster tech 2 BP the agent needs to have a couple of Rare Rat Loot tech 1 Nurgleblasters. This will of course increase the demand for Scout Nurgleblasters, thereby giving the market a nice boost. For high-level tech2 items which can be expected to fetch millions once released you can now restrict the amount of people researching it by making the research cost prohibitive for individuals. There is no point in giving a Tachyon Beam Laser II BP to a freelancer player when so many more people should get involved with this. True, this will mean that the larger corporations will have their hands on the really hot goods, but through the special demands (especially rare loot) it will mean that a lot of corp and outside people will have to get involved in order to get the research done. Example: word has it that Techell are researching Tech2 Dual Heavy Beam lasers - they need large quantities of Heavy Modulated Beams, for which they are willing to pay top isk. In turn, this will lead to a goldrush towards the Laser-Dropping Rat territories. Fun ensues. Let the player choose from a list of possible research topics the agent provides. That way you can head off the problem of too many people researching the same thing at once, if you want to protect the market. Different Factions, different research topics = natural market diversity. [*]Give Players with BP originals some part in this. Let research agents give out occasional BPs, but make a tech level 1 BP a requirement for tech2 BP originals. There are many other good ideas in this and the other thread, which could help make the new Agent system so much more fun, not to mention bringing players together in cooperation to achieve the really big things.
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2003.11.27 03:23:00 - [146] I actualy like the idea of research agents. It keeps Tech 1 from becoming obsolete overnight and provides a way for people who do agent missions with a chance to make some real money and become a more active part in the community by producing or trading Tech2 related stuff and services for other people. The main problem I have with agent missions is that they are boring. They are mostly lame courier missions that turn you into an underpaid FedEx guy. Instead having agents issue a bunch of boring and thoughtless missions they should issue more challenging missions like finding hidden pirate spawns or rare items or find someone shipping contrabandà that kind of thing. Of course those missions would be more time consuming but they would be much more interesting and rewarding. Players should be given a choice to do a hard mission that would score them a lot of standing points and have a higher chance of giving you a major reward or do more mundane missions that are easier to complete but give less standings and a smaller chance for a major reward. It would also be really cool if they added really hard missions that could be issued to whole gangs... like taking out other players.
Irwin Shaw	Posted - 2003.11.27 13:37:00 - [147] Distributing tech 2 with agents and lotteries?? Come on, who came up with such a lame idea.... When is research going to be a factor in this game, that's what I would like to know. Ever since the game was launched research has more or less been un-developed, and research was one of the main reasons I started playing the game, so it would be nice if CCP used the release of tech 2 to actually give us researchers an active role in the game. An idea for researching the new tech 2 items would be to divide the research of a new item into various areas of research, i.e. electronics, mineral composition and so on, so that individuals could research a part of the project and then in the end you could use your research agent or a corp scientist with extreme intelligence to piece together all the research in order to produce a tech 2 prototype, or if cash strapped, sell your research to the highest bidder. After getting a prototype this would have to be tested extensively (miners wouldnt want the brand new mining lasers to blow up after 5 minutes of service...) before you could get a BP. I am fully aware og the fact that this approach is not perfect, but let's face it, few things are, and in my opinion the research aspect SHOULD BE a part of tech 2 introduction, not just a lottery as the only way to introduce new tech. It would be like going to the supermarket, buying a lottery ticket and then learn that you have just won the blueprint for starship Enterprise.... I can see that a lot of people are worried about the megacorps ending up with BP's for tech 2 BS. Hmmm, honestly, why shouldn't they up with them if they invest a ton of money and resources to develop a new ship design?? It would make absolutely no sense that my own corp with 2 members ended up with a apocalypse II BP just by running research missions for an agent and then get lucky in the lottery, as we would have no practical use for such a blueprint; we dont have the resources to build battleships anyway. SO, to sum up, let's get the research introduced and become an ACTIVE part of this game!!
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.28 11:11:00 - [148] ... OK, seems at the moment people are having two major problems with the research done strictly through the agents. * "i'm a scientist not agent w**e, wahh" "i live in 0.0 space, there's no agents here, i'd have to travel a lot, wahh" a possible alternate approach to the research which could perhaps deal with those: * self-proclaimed researcher Joe wants to make a name for himself by becoming most famous rocket scientist. He's worked hard towards his goal, acquiring and training general Science skill, Rocket Science and whatever other skills were needed. * Joe goes to the market and buys himself an industrial ship. Industrial ships are normally used for hauling, but in this case we'll make use not only of their cargo bay, but of their cpu array as well. * Joe purchases also a godawfully expensive Rocket Science research module. The purchase means Joe is now pretty much broke and having all his investment put in fragile industrial ship is really risky, but Joe believes the possible reward is worth such risk. * Joe installs the research module in his new industrial. Fitting it requires high level Science skill and the Rocket Science skill, but Joe already has these trained. The module itself --while not using that much of powergrid-- takes some 1000+ tf of cpu to operate... which means it can't be installed in say, a shield-tanked battleship. * Joe then undocks his research ship, and heads for the nearest planet, moon, asteroid belt... any place but secure bookmark in the middle of nowhere. Maybe it's because of some silly rp requirement that the fragile research system requires strong source of gravity to operate. Maybe it's to prevent the 100% safe afk research. Who knows :s * upon arrival to destination Joe starts the research module. The module works somewhat similar like a mining laser -- every 'cycle' it generates some amount of research points which are placed in the cargo bay of Joe's research ship. The length of cycle and the number of generated points probably depends on Joe's skill levels, type of module in question etc. * unlike the mining laser, the research module requires more than just single nearby source of one type of ore. Like a mobile refinery or the factory slot it expects to be provided with all sorts of goods and minerals which are to be placed in the cargo bay of the research ship. Maybe it even requires ocassional tech.1 module or tech.1 blueprint... it's up to Joe to keep up with the module demands and refill the bay of his ship when needed. * while Joe is performing his research he must unfortunately be on constant lookout -- the research points in the cargo bay of his ship are very valuable commodity, as they are generic. Any other person working on their own Rocket Science project can use them to advance their own research. They would probably like to either pay for such points, or blow up and thus slow down their competition. Enter mercenaries and pirates who suddenly find new source of income. * presuming Joe wasn't blown up together with his ship, at some point he may decide he has enough research points developed to call it a day. He sets autopilot for the station of a friendly research agent. Upon docking, he hands the agent his research points which the agent adds to the research points already received from Joe. * eventually CCP decides to distribute 100 blueprints for SmurgleMissile II. A lottery is performed, and if Joe accumulated enough Rocket Science points by now, he might receive evemail from his agent: "omgomg Joe... i was just in bath with this cute Caldari chick and we've been having fun when all that play suddenly made me think of how i could make use of the research you did to improve the aiming module and the thrust power on the SmurgleMissile.. like, omgeurekawtfbbq Joe, come and see just what i came up with, kthxbye" * Joe jumps in some fastest ship he can find, flies to the agent's station and receives his SmurgleMissile II blueprint. pros: no need to do many agent missions, in some cases no need to do missions at all -- few low lever research agents will talk to anyone as long as their faction is at least neutral. The results of 'research' performed this way depend on the character's own scientific skills, invested money and devoted time. research can be done in any Eve system no matter of the security level. There's no need to travel to agents except for rare trips to deliver the research points. few others i can't be bothered to think of at the moment, 'tis a way too long post already :s
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.11.28 11:49:00 - [149] Advancement through such a module should be slower then advancement through agent system. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2003.11.28 12:01:00 - [150] Quote: ... OK, seems at the moment people are having two major problems with the research done strictly through the agents. * "i'm a scientist not agent w**e, wahh" "i live in 0.0 space, there's no agents here, i'd have to travel a lot, wahh" i am a whine wahhh ;) Quote: a possible alternate approach to the research which could perhaps deal with those: nice idea, i think that should be possible as addition to the current system, as it's a nice way to get additional research points. now let's hope papasmurf likes it too :D -- The worst thing you can do when suggesting a solution to a problem is to provide alternatives, people end up arguing the alternatives instead of implementing the fix.
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.28 12:22:00 - [151] Edited by: j0sephine on 28/11/2003 12:31:26 "Advancement through such a module should be slower then advancement through agent system." Yup, definitely; a similar (or maybe slightly better) ratio to how the mobile refineries perform when compared to the station refinery, perhaps? No idea how the performance of various level agents differs, but am thinking of performance somewhat lower than what lvl.1 agent can offer... so there is incentive to try to get the better research agents, but at the same time well coordinated research done by large corporation can turn out comparable to medium-high level of agent r&d. ^^;; Mr.Guinness: sorry about that 'wahh' up there; just poking a bit of fun, no serious disrespect or anythin meant ;)
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2003.11.28 12:35:00 - [152] Quote: Mr.Guinness: sorry about that 'wahh' up there; just poking a bit of fun, no serious disrespect or anythin meant ;) hehe i've read enough of your posts to know that ;) as for the efficiency of the modules, sure they wouldn't be as good as a station, some balance would have to be found there. would have todo some calculations there if we know more about research agents. cheers :) -- The worst thing you can do when suggesting a solution to a problem is to provide alternatives, people end up arguing the alternatives instead of implementing the fix.
slixgurnt	Posted - 2003.11.28 12:58:00 - [153] Well I'm just going to weigh in and add my name to the List Of Concerned Researchers. This system wasn't what I was expecting or looking forward to, and I find it rather disappointing. Like others, I don't really have a problem with Tech 2 BPs being available from agents, but I too would like to see alternate paths open as has been suggested (improvement of existing BPs, reverse engineering, finding them at POIs, etc.). I like the idea of the new skills, and especially that they are rank 5 and therefore be real tough to train. Those few who've posted suggesting that researchers have it easy might like to reflect on how long it's going to take to train a rank 5 level 5 skill! I also agree with the concerns expressed about the numbers of BPs which will be released, and the timescales involved. If CCP get it wrong the results could be catastrophic, given the general mood after Miner-2-Gate. We will have to wait and see I guess. McWatt: you made a few points which I think were aimed at trying to introduce some sort of risk in the lives of researchers. While I agree with the sentiment, your suggestions all seemed to be pretty much combat-related, which I don't really think is appropriate. One element which seems to be missing from the game (at least in a formal sense) is that of espionage. That would address the issue of BPs being lockec "safely" in stations. They are safe until some spy comes along and nicks them. I guess there are ways this happens already (sleeper characters and spies), but maybe a bit more of that would add some spice to life. A skill which when well trained facilitates the circumvention of corporate security systems, and so on. Just a thought.
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.28 13:21:00 - [154] "Those few who've posted suggesting that researchers have it easy might like to reflect on how long it's going to take to train a rank 5 level 5 skill!" ... Uhmm. For tech.2 research you need Science (rank 1) skill at level 5, and some specific other skill (also usually of rank 1 like Mechanic or Engineering) at lvl.5. And specific tech.2 skill at lvl.1-3 as far as i can tell... Where does the requirement of rank 5 skill at lvl.5 come from? O.o (and well... Cruiser Command, all three Large Turrets skills, Trajectory Analysis, Cruise Missiles, Heavy Drones, Drone Interfacing, High Speed Maneuvering are rank 5 each. Battleship Command is rank 8. An effective fighter will want to have all these at lvl.4 at least.... so don't tell me how the life of researcher is tough and requires lots of training. ;s
Angry Sheep	Posted - 2003.11.28 15:18:00 - [155] j0sephine - some good posts there - I like your ideas and they are very clear and lead to more fun tan hours of solo play in agent missions (have to get the crew to protect me while making points) keep the posts up It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
slixgurnt	Posted - 2003.11.28 15:54:00 - [156] Quote: "Those few who've posted suggesting that researchers have it easy might like to reflect on how long it's going to take to train a rank 5 level 5 skill!" ... Uhmm. For tech.2 research you need Science (rank 1) skill at level 5, and some specific other skill (also usually of rank 1 like Mechanic or Engineering) at lvl.5. And specific tech.2 skill at lvl.1-3 as far as i can tell... Where does the requirement of rank 5 skill at lvl.5 come from? O.o (and well... Cruiser Command, all three Large Turrets skills, Trajectory Analysis, Cruise Missiles, Heavy Drones, Drone Interfacing, High Speed Maneuvering are rank 5 each. Battleship Command is rank 8. An effective fighter will want to have all these at lvl.4 at least.... so don't tell me how the life of researcher is tough and requires lots of training. ;s The new Tech 2 skills will be rank 5 (or so I read), and an effective researcher will want to have those at level 5 (and there are 17 of them)
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.11.28 20:06:00 - [157] some of the advanced skills have another advanced skill at 1 or 3 as a pre-requisite - no requirements require level 5 As I read it you choose a specific category to actually research in - thus you only need one of those advanced skills (at most two - and then the first only have to be the aforementioned 1/3) . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Missa	Posted - 2003.11.28 22:21:00 - [158] Edited by: Missa on 28/11/2003 22:21:40 Quote: Distributing tech 2 with agents and lotteries?? Come on, who came up with such a lame idea.... Exactly, as a soon to be un-needed character in Eve...I would also like to know who is responsible for removing the job of the PC scientist in Eve in favor of NPC scientists. I want to know who is responsible for this attack upon the PC scientific community as a whole. Words allowed on this forum cannot begin to explain my frustration at this point with the CCP dev team as they prepare to shaft scientists harder than we have ever felt it before. The only class I can see more hurting than us would be the poor traders needing their skills in-game. Why not remove science skills entirely from the game (seriously consider it if you really plan to make these changes) and ignore it as a "bad dream". I would prefer that to having to resort to being a mission runner just to be a "scientist". So please CCP, if you really plan to make these terrable and distructive changes to the game just remove science skills. At least then I will have a less sour taste in my mouth. Games are made up of the stories of PC characters, not NPC characters. Sure NPCs are great tools for starting a new story and then supporting it along the way. But I believe that the stories of Eve should be in the hands of players and how they choose to make them. Not by NPCs and random lotteries to see what NPC will give what BP to what PC. Please try to see the wisdom in valuing PC characters over NPCs or you might as well not have GMs for in-story scenes. In fact why have PC scientists at all if all they can do is research mineral and production values...oh and make now limited BPCs. How are random lotteries research anyway? PS. Sorry to the person who thought up this idea in the first place, I am not intenting to attack you. But I do not belive that this is the way that Eve "research" progression should be conducted. It simply makes no sense at all that my PC cannot do nearly what a lowly NPC and a lottery can do. --Missa New Siggy to Come Soon(tm)
Azure Skyclad	Posted - 2003.11.28 22:54:00 - [159] Don't really need to add anything to that which has already been said. This is a "cop out" CCP. You either sold us a false promise with RnD or you can't be bothered to do the work to implement it properly. Too hard to do? Tell us it's too hard. We're grown up girls and boys (mostly) Can't be bothered? Why do i pay you every month? We were led to believe it was going to happen one way then you float this doozy along with the rest of the turds on the briney. "Go away and do it again" La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs Star Fraction http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2003.11.29 11:45:00 - [160] Quote: Edited by: Missa on 28/11/2003 22:21:40 Quote: Distributing tech 2 with agents and lotteries?? Come on, who came up with such a lame idea.... Exactly, as a soon to be un-needed character in Eve...I would also like to know who is responsible for removing the job of the PC scientist in Eve in favor of NPC scientists. I want to know who is responsible for this attack upon the PC scientific community as a whole. Words allowed on this forum cannot begin to explain my frustration at this point with the CCP dev team as they prepare to shaft scientists harder than we have ever felt it before. The only class I can see more hurting than us would be the poor traders needing their skills in-game. Why not remove science skills entirely from the game (seriously consider it if you really plan to make these changes) and ignore it as a "bad dream". I would prefer that to having to resort to being a mission runner just to be a "scientist". So please CCP, if you really plan to make these terrable and distructive changes to the game just remove science skills. At least then I will have a less sour taste in my mouth. Games are made up of the stories of PC characters, not NPC characters. Sure NPCs are great tools for starting a new story and then supporting it along the way. But I believe that the stories of Eve should be in the hands of players and how they choose to make them. Not by NPCs and random lotteries to see what NPC will give what BP to what PC. Please try to see the wisdom in valuing PC characters over NPCs or you might as well not have GMs for in-story scenes. In fact why have PC scientists at all if all they can do is research mineral and production values...oh and make now limited BPCs. How are random lotteries research anyway? PS. Sorry to the person who thought up this idea in the first place, I am not intenting to attack you. But I do not belive that this is the way that Eve "research" progression should be conducted. It simply makes no sense at all that my PC cannot do nearly what a lowly NPC and a lottery can do. Well if you actually bothered to read the original post you would see that it is not random. You accumulate research points in certain fields at a rate based on your research agents skill and your skill. The process is like a raffle with research points being like tickets. The more research points you have the greater your chances of getting a reward are.
Azure Skyclad	Posted - 2003.11.29 13:31:00 - [161] ....which still isn't research. It's tantamount to Track and Field without the RSI. Hump your agent as quickly as possible to get research points..You and X other people who get enough points enter a lottery to win a BP. Disappointment overwhelms me. It's not research. Sure, it should take a long time. Sure, it should require work....but this? It's basically a GM moderated handout. It's an evasive solution for CCP who, as i said earlier are unwilling or unable to implement a decent research system. Once more CCP, "Go away and do it again" La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs Star Fraction http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.29 13:55:00 - [162] "Disappointment overwhelms me. It's not research. Sure, it should take a long time. Sure, it should require work....but this?" ... Ever wondered why in pretty much all computer games the 'research' boils down to clicking 'start project' and waiting until a nice gauge fills up? Research simply isn't something which can be done both faithfully and 'fun'. You could perhaps make it a strategic simulation where you have to allocate research team skills, secure funding and resources, take care of possible corporate espionage etc. But at the end of the day there's still very lil' difference between having to obtain 100 units of garbage for your research team so they can progress... and obtaining 100 units of garbage for your agent who then hands it to the research team they're leading for you.
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2003.11.29 17:07:00 - [163] Actualy you don't even need to "hump" your agent. Just tell them what you want to research and its like training a skill... no missions required. J0 is right. I can't really think of a fun, interactive way research could be implemented within EVE. The only thing that makes real world research fun is a strong desire to learn and understand... something you can't really get from a game.
Missa	Posted - 2003.11.30 00:55:00 - [164] Quote: Well if you actually bothered to read the original post you would see that it is not random. You accumulate research points in certain fields at a rate based on your research agents skill and your skill. The process is like a raffle with research points being like tickets. The more research points you have the greater your chances of getting a reward are. I fail to see the difference between lotteries and raffles. I understand them to be the same thing. --Missa New Siggy to Come Soon(tm)
Azure Skyclad	Posted - 2003.11.30 03:59:00 - [165] Edited by: Azure Skyclad on 30/11/2003 04:01:55 [Quote]Research simply isn't something which can be done both faithfully and 'fun'. You could perhaps make it a strategic simulation where you have to allocate research team skills, secure funding and resources, take care of possible corporate espionage etc. But at the end of the day there's still very lil' difference between having to obtain 100 units of garbage for your research team so they can progress... and obtaining 100 units of garbage for your agent who then hands it to the research team they're leading for you. This would be a step in the right direction though j0sephine. As it stands, your idea involves more interaction than the current one. Dunno, a scientist's personal skills could affect the efficacy of the team he leads? Hell! At least all those research characters out there would have something to do. Many folks created science based characters as they forsaw a need for them in the future. I get the feeling the rug just got pulled out from under them. A character who spends her life with her nose in books should be better at this than someone who fights or trades for a living. In some areas, i could research stuff just as well, if not better than a dedicated scientist and i'm not even a scientist. Doesn't that just seem wrong to you? I seem to remember one of the editions of Traveller (old SciFi RPG for you young'uns ) which had a research method using skills and random dice rolls.....Something EVE already does in abundance. I don't remember the system exactly but it revolves around proposition and testing of hypotheses (using skills and rolls) Proving or refuting your hypothesis with experimentation. Certain rolls gave critical success or failure outcomes depending on skill and luck. Obviously, the the range of hypotheses you could propose are limited because of the environment of a computer game. However, the tech 2 skills list already provides some solid examples of research areas and some possible sub disciplines which could be explored. The hypothesis propose/experiment/validate/refute/advance/discard system would then offer a bit of an "oooooo" factor. A bit of "Cack! Back to the drawing board" or "Yes! Break out that bottle of vintage we were saving!" For a scientist. Something which is only really enjoyed by the fighting community at the moment. Now, thats just a rough something tossed into the arena to be considered and applauded or ripped to pieces by your good selves. The point i'm trying to make is something with a bit more substance than what is currently on offer was surely within the capabilities of a bunch of people able to produce something like EVE. My question remains, "If they could, why didn't they?" or perhaps "Is the solution on offer worthy of my continued patronage?" I enjoy a different aspect of EVE to be completely hacked off by this. I do feel a pang of sympathy for people like Missa who feel like their career choice got demoted from "Important, integral part" to "Also ran" Bleh, 3:50 am and i'm coming up with this La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs Star Fraction http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/
Usharin Silverberg	Posted - 2003.12.02 12:31:00 - [166] Azure, I think that was in the Hiver or Solarian alien module - I'll dig it out of the loft later and have a look - would be nice if they could implement the system like that (bt OT but traveller was the greatest of all the RPGs )
Lucas Bowman	Posted - 2003.12.03 01:44:00 - [167] OMG! What are you people thinking! (Hint, I don't like the idea). Okay, you've got everybody complaining about how everybody is sticking with secure space and won't go out to 0.0 sectors to play/work. Now introduce agent only release of tech 2 bp's. Now everybody out in 0.0 come on back to secure space to get an agent. Don't bother heading back out cause you gotta keep checking on your little buddy to make sure he's working. This is a real deep space killer idea if you're actually going to do this. Let me repost an idea that sounds alot better than this one. Make science characters more valuable by allowing tech breakthroughs at certain levels of research levels. For an example, let's say at 100 Min Eff & 100 Prod Eff you then begin to have a chance for a breakthrough to tech 2. Sure simple items could be gained pretty quickly, but ship advancments will take quite a bit of research dedication to accomplish a tech breakthrough. At least the technology would be equally available to all and science becomes a critical portion to the game. My two cents.
Drutort	Posted - 2003.12.03 21:31:00 - [168] what i dont understand IS WHY THERE IS NO TEAM WORK!! when do you see 1 man research??? WHEN???? there should be a camp of amount of ppl can do research, but i think it should be that the higher tech the more ppl and the longer it would take to GET the research... its only LOGICAL low lvl could be done by individuals, but higher tech should always req more then 1 person, and yes it is fair, because thats how its done... you cant make everyone happy but making it so that everyone can solo researching everything is just DUMB you wouldnÆt need a mega corp, since there would be a cap on how many people can effectively work on a project, and maybe make it so others can join but you get stacking type of nerfà all this means is people would just need few other players, they can be friends or some alliesà this game is a MMO its not single player were you just go and do your own thing with NPCÆs I urge CCP to reconsider, and put in team work into research as it should be. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2003.12.03 21:43:00 - [169] Quote: Screw Agents. Corps should be able to Research without them. I wouldnt hate them so much if every thing about them was not so damn boring. Doing Agent missions is like the single player version of EVE. I'm tired of all the good stuff (like implants) being given EXCLUSIVELY through this crappy Agent system. Agents are great for peeps who are afraid to fly into 0.0 and kill 50k pirates. BUT, for those of us that do have the balls, we should be rewarded with good pirate drops like implants and Tech II BP's. This is very frustrating. yes pretty much your connected to eve and chat with ppl and do agents as if you had a chat program open and talked with friends while you played single player game they need to WORK on TEAM WORK ABILITY... if they could at least throw in that you need more ppl for the agent mission, then i would say well... at least you improve your odds a bit... but everyone soloing is just stupid it so goes against the hole game, and the hole MMO thing of doing stuff with others... its far to much based on single player style which most dont like other wise we would NOT BE HERE PLAYING EVE IN FIRST PLACE support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2003.12.03 21:53:00 - [170] Now thinking this over a bit, if the devÆs still want agents in the equation then they MUST put multi-player in the equation as wellà Make it that you can work in teams maybe start of with 5 other players with skills to work with that agent, to get the tech/bpÆs BUT please you must have the multi-player part in the equation or else its like single player. Other games have many players go and kill npcÆs here we have same with npc piratesà now we need many players coming together doing research that npc agent gives out etcà NOT SINGLE PLAYER style. Also im going to say that some form of online activity should boost your research, and offline research or points whatever should work but not as MUCH, we want interaction and that has to be done with players being active IE being online playing the game doing stuff. Make higher tech and rare bpÆs req diff ppl with different skills, and not only scientistÆs as you need say some combat expert come in and tell the scientists what hell they want and need ppl to test there stuff etcà All of the above is a lot more logical and feasible then just having single player with NPC agent. I think people will agree with me, and I agree with there points, just hope that CCP/DevÆs look into this. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.12.04 10:17:00 - [171] Edited by: j0sephine on 04/12/2003 10:18:12 "what i dont understand IS WHY THERE IS NO TEAM WORK!! when do you see 1 man research??? WHEN????" ... The chance of obtaining new blueprints is proportional to number of collected research points in given field. You can take your accumulated research points from the agent, and give them to another person who can then give those points to their own agent. Without resorting to caps, can you spot already how the team work can enhance your chances in this system?
Vel Kyri	Posted - 2003.12.04 12:41:00 - [172] I dont know if this is being stated yet (too many pages) but a few things - yes you get research points based on your skills and the agent level... agent level is based on your standing the BP that you are eligible for depend on your skills. (need pre requisite skills.) the research agent missions will have some differences - ie, some missions ill be "get me x items i want" which will boost the research points you have if you succeed, and reduce the amount if you fail. then there will be "halting missions" which might be "i need a rare module X to continue my research" and until you succeed the mission, the agent does no more research for you in that area. the nuber of research projects you have will be limited by skills. === to me this sounds great - a researcher can try to go it alone... but with a corp, you can have a char who specialises in science skills, and gets his corp mates to help with missions to get the faction ranking (already possible now) personally i love the idea of the new system :) -----
zukuroo	Posted - 2003.12.04 13:49:00 - [173] can anyone tell me how this will affect tech1 blueprints? will they become worthless? or is there a way to research them into tech2?
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.12.04 19:49:00 - [174] its been said there will be two types of Tech 2 BP - one will be a direct build costing the full amount, the other will be an Conversion which uses the Tech 1 item as a base material (say using an Apocalypse as a material for an Apocalypse II) and cuts the cost dramatically (but also needs more "tooling") . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
nono	Posted - 2003.12.05 06:30:00 - [175] Quote: Edited by: j0sephine on 04/12/2003 10:18:12 "what i dont understand IS WHY THERE IS NO TEAM WORK!! when do you see 1 man research??? WHEN????" ... The chance of obtaining new blueprints is proportional to number of collected research points in given field. You can take your accumulated research points from the agent, and give them to another person who can then give those points to their own agent. Without resorting to caps, can you spot already how the team work can enhance your chances in this system? Where did you get this tidbit of information from?
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.12.05 12:00:00 - [176] #eve-chaos nono :) [Heterocephalus glaber]
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.12.05 15:12:00 - [177] "#eve-chaos nono :)" Actually, from the very Chaos -.^ (only few hours till i get Science 5 on Chaos myself, wheeeee :o!
nono	Posted - 2003.12.05 15:31:00 - [178] Thanks for the reply Dose this '^' mean it's in this thread somewhere? And more importantly is this the end for anyone not in an uber corp to actually have a chance of obtaining anything in the next century?
Muaddid	Posted - 2003.12.05 17:27:00 - [179] well so far from what ive seen it looks good, but this issue needs to be adressed with the implentation of the castor patch On vacations (need a new sig too)
Lucas Bowman	Posted - 2003.12.06 01:34:00 - [180] I was REALLY hoping someone would chime in and say that I was wrong about having to come into secure space to get a tech agent. So this is really going to be a 0.0 killer?
Chai N'Dorr	Posted - 2003.12.08 12:53:00 - [181] Did see a list somewhere on the Forum(s) with a breakdown in Research Agents per Region. Also had some 0.0 Regions listed. Not gonna look it up for you, you can do that yourself. It's out there somewhere.
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2003.12.09 09:32:00 - [182] It's true there's actually 1 or 2 regions in 0.0 that have a few research agents. But the main inhabitet 0.0 regions (Curse, Catch, Fountain, GW, CFS Space, Stain, Venal) don't have any. I started i thread about it some weeks ago in General Discussion. you might find it using the extern forum search. I was called a whiner in this thread and the ppl who live in empire space think it's good to only have them their, they think it's balanced. I think it screws balance, i've tried to explain that to the devs, but nobody cares. I doubt CCP will change their design and add research corps for the pirate factions (that would be needed so Papasmurf could add research agents). All i got from ccp was "black market, boosters" and other stuff that 0.0 agents will offer soon(TM) will balance it ..... I still don't think it's balanced, but we wont be able to change it. for more info check the irc quotes. irc log linkage cheers -- The worst thing you can do when suggesting a solution to a problem is to provide alternatives, people end up arguing the alternatives instead of implementing the fix.
R3aliti	Posted - 2003.12.13 17:22:00 - [183] Maybe I missed something or just do not understand this "AGENT" concept. Previously you had to do agent missions to get implants, now we have a research agent to get blueprints. I have never done a single mission nor do I ever intend to. What is wrong with putting implants and blueprints on the market at an NPC price so that EVERYONE can buy them and use them as their skills allow. I look at it as: "Agent mission - take 300 rounds of Large AM ammo to a station 12 jumps from here. Do that 100 times and be a good little subserviant player and I will give you something special." This all seems like some kind of power trip on the part of someone, or is it that players can't put together a plan and set of things for themselves to do to get ahead, so missions were created to give them something to keep them busy. Please no flames - if someone could explain the Agent missions concept and what it's true purpose is I will gladly read it and try to understand. Till them I have way to many things I want to accomplish to be running around gaining the favor of some NPC. Thank you for any constructive responses. R3
Copernicus	Posted - 2003.12.14 01:12:00 - [184] Edited by: Copernicus on 14/12/2003 01:13:11 I'm kind of confused about it to. So you can get an agent. I've never done an agent mission but I have Science 5/ Research 5/ Lab Operation 5 (and the rest). So what will determine what level of research agent I get? I don't want to have to do 300 lame missions just to get a "level 3" agent so I can get research agent benefits. I've done the work by sacrificing other skills to train science as my primary school. So whats in it for me? Copernicus Chief Scientist Libertas Enterprises
ayriajen	Posted - 2003.12.14 23:26:00 - [185] I really really want a SmurgleBlaster
Magusa	Posted - 2003.12.15 01:35:00 - [186] Edited by: Magusa on 15/12/2003 01:41:12 Edited by: Magusa on 15/12/2003 01:40:55 IMO things in this game seem to be implemented from one extreme to another. At one point, the players that were doing agent missions we not rearded in any way. In one patch that went from no rewards, to getting the best tech in the game(Implants). Now this is going even further by making agents the only way to get new tech in the game. The most important thing about missions hasnt been changed- and that is, missions being the most boring thing to do in Eve. Before making missions the only way to get anything good in the game, a lot of time and effort should have been put into making missions more interesting and fun. Fun is after all, the reason we all play this game. It shouldnt be a second job. Please Devs, we all agree with this. Anyone who has done a couple hundred agent missions and still actually likes them, I would think has a few screws loose. Can you add more to missions, such as: -Different types of missions (Combat, Assasination, Smuggling, Player Killing, Figuring out puzzles, Information gathering) -Make some mission team orriented, etc Before forcing EVERYONE in game to do these missions, these should have sonething appealing to EVERYONE! (EDITIED for spelling)
Long Reach	Posted - 2003.12.15 18:11:00 - [187] Wow long thread. I would like to see bp introduction split. For example if there are going to be 100 new tech 2 items introduced, number 100 only used for example, have half be obtainable by the agent system and half by random npc encouter. The random npc encounter being very rare very elusive special spawn. Dev says today we will introduce everyones favorite smurgleblaster bp and it will be a pirate drop. 10 bps will be introduced for the smurgle blaster. 10 pirates will spawn say guarded by a mixed fleet in 10 seperate randomly selected regions, sec level a non factor any region any system a possiblilty. Until that fleet is destroyed the can with the bp will remain locked. Place the fleets unusual locations like moons as asteroid belts are often visited. Even if the system goes in as planned I see no huge reason for complaint. The zero zero inhabitants live in a dangerous world but also a world with the best hunting and best minerals, use profits from hunting or mining for items you want. The pirates buy the item with your illgotten gains after some poor agent runner youve possibly killed a handful of times grinds away on missions for his bp. Whatever you want to do in game, you arent forced to do these missions. Just make the isk doing what you like and make a purchase.
Lucas Bowman	Posted - 2003.12.18 18:53:00 - [188] Looks like I nailed that call. Anybody check your "Pilots in Space" count on the Nav Map? See any dots outside of secure space? I only see a couple. Oh yah, what's the going price for Megacyte these days? Anybody there working on infrustructure or are all these patches based upon pvp'ers complaining about how nobody leaves safe space? I also love the travel times now, spend all night going places now instead of playing the game.
Harisdrop	Posted - 2004.01.09 16:44:00 - [189] BUMP!! This is a funny read. -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Qual	Posted - 2004.01.09 17:50:00 - [190] Quote: It's true there's actually 1 or 2 regions in 0.0 that have a few research agents. But the main inhabitet 0.0 regions (Curse, Catch, Fountain, GW, CFS Space, Stain, Venal) don't have any. I started i thread about it some weeks ago in General Discussion. you might find it using the extern forum search. I was called a whiner in this thread and the ppl who live in empire space think it's good to only have them their, they think it's balanced. I think it screws balance, i've tried to explain that to the devs, but nobody cares. I doubt CCP will change their design and add research corps for the pirate factions (that would be needed so Papasmurf could add research agents). Pireates doing thier own research? WTF would they be pirating then in the first place? Lol. Pirates by defenition takes stuff from others by force. They dont make it themselfs... Head of Xanadu Elite Ships Department
Sara Summer	Posted - 2004.01.12 07:42:00 - [191] As i read, i seen a lot of good idea. Puting some random encounter on planets and moons with a fleet for a bp2 is nice (help with corp effort and make explorer profession revived). For the agents missions, i would find it a good idea IF it was from low tech stuff. Exemple, if tech3 was going out, agent can give lvl 2 bp and maybe sometimes as often like finding a random fleet you get nicer stuff. But one thing I hope that will not happen with this lotery... that one day CCP decide to give a BS tech2 bp to one persone, I am for that big stuff like that CANT be achieve by lonely player. Ok and that idea of J0sephine was realy nice to have indy ship going around space to make research, what i would like to add to the idea is that research your doing need to be near a special type of sun or planet with a specific gravity(that would make people go in low sec. sys. to do research). Geting RPs would need stuff from bs npc rats(making fighter useful) and that your research point you made in your indy is hand over to an agent (making those who love to play alone useful) and some trade good, component and R.A.M. in LARGE quantity needed to be provide in the same time that you need to stay near the sun(making trader{or hauler} a most). And to not forget our belove miners research could ask for a lot of minerals. That your R.A.M. go out of order and need to get another. That would make research not an individual job but make it a corp event. And what the heck.. you could still mixte rp from one field with another to get the bp in a laboraories to get the bp. Ok maybe all that is needed for the BattleShip kind bp.. but bs bp need to be rare right. Also would be nice that sometimes an enigme for something need is given that would make researcher do real research.. (like something told in one of the plot story) Also one thing i dont want to see is that to get a SmurlgeProtectiveArmor IV you need always 10 tritanium 3 pyerite 1 megacyte and 1 SmurgleBlaster III Bp. that would make this game like any other mmorpg.. got to a web site and found the recepies, train a skill,get the stuff need and make it with a % to fail(I am not thinking about Everquest when im saying this). Ok i can give a point too the DEV team to try to put new stuff in game cause its need to have more stuff in it. But, I would prefere to wait a little longer to have hours of plaisure an frustration to get the bp then a chance to win the bp. One thign its sure some stuff like cargo expander can be win in lottery, this dont change the game much but if someone get only a frig lvl 2 from an agent lvl1 just cause he pick the starship (put a race here) engeering. CCP and DEV will go down in my trust to make this game one of the greatest. Well lets give a chance to the DEV and pray taht tech 3wont be that randomly given Ok if all that is needed to be done to get a bp.. Im sure it will be MegaUber like a X-Large smurlge Smartbomb ------------------------------------------ Power is strength, Knowledge is power

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